[Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Is there some reason to prefer one of this two keys for tagging whatever ferry 
is a paid one?

I feel that toll tag is better as it is part of road structure.

For recreational cruises fee may fit better but tagging it as route=ferry is
tagging for renderer anyway.

As far as popularity in data goes - both tags have at this moment basically the 
same popularity.
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Mark Wagner]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 13:57:25 -0700
Nick Bolten  wrote:

> > IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs.  
> 
> Yes, but it's something that is frequently difficult to estimate. 

After learning that the trail from the Old Faithful viewing area to
Castle Geyser isn't considered wheelchair-accessible, I've given up on
the idea that wheelchair-accessibility is something that mere mortals
are capable of determining.  To my untrained eye, it's nearly perfect:
four meters wide, quality asphalt paving, no cross slope, and
effectively flat.  But apparently that "effectively" isn't good enough:
an elevation gain of five meters over the course of a 700-meter run is
enough to defeat a wheelchair user.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag

[Warin]

On 19/06/19 18:24, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
Is there some reason to prefer one of this two keys for tagging 
whatever ferry is a paid one?

What do the cross channel ferries have for UK to France?

Ha. They don't have a tag on them to indicate that payment is required.
Not done on UK to Spain either...
Not for England to Isle of Man
Not for the Orkney ferries either

Toll for England to Ireland



I feel that toll tag is better as it is part of road structure.


The wiki says either toll or fee. So use what you like.


For recreational cruises fee may fit better but tagging it as 
route=ferry is

tagging for renderer anyway.

As far as popularity in data goes - both tags have at this moment 
basically the same popularity.



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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Peter Elderson]

Electric wheelchairs and the like (NL "scootmobiel)" are very common in
Nederland, simple wheelchairs on a route are rarely seen these days and if
so, they are pushed. Sports variants are around, they would not be defeated
by a slow slope. A regulare kerb is no problem, besides, almost all
crossings have a route with lowered sections.

So I think wheelchair=yes is not very useful over here. Wheelchair=no would
make more sense, although I think most people would take their chances
anyway.


Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op wo 19 jun. 2019 om 10:26 schreef Mark Wagner :

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 13:57:25 -0700
> Nick Bolten  wrote:
>
> > > IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs.
> >
> > Yes, but it's something that is frequently difficult to estimate.
>
> After learning that the trail from the Old Faithful viewing area to
> Castle Geyser isn't considered wheelchair-accessible, I've given up on
> the idea that wheelchair-accessibility is something that mere mortals
> are capable of determining.  To my untrained eye, it's nearly perfect:
> four meters wide, quality asphalt paving, no cross slope, and
> effectively flat.  But apparently that "effectively" isn't good enough:
> an elevation gain of five meters over the course of a 700-meter run is
> enough to defeat a wheelchair user.
>
> --
> Mark
>
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Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag

[Topographe Fou]

  For me, if none of those tags would already exist, I would say that toll is an infrastructure and shall be put where the toll is  (booths, gates, automatic systems...) whereas fee is an attribute which denote that this amenity/road/ferry is not free to use.But as of today both are used, so I keep toll for highways and fee for nearly all other things such as toilets, parking...If I would have to map a ferry road, I would probably be lost also.LeTopographeFou   De: 61sundow...@gmail.comEnvoyé: 19 juin 2019 12:21 PMÀ: tagging@openstreetmap.orgRépondre à: tagging@openstreetmap.orgObjet: Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag  On 19/06/19 18:24, Mateusz Konieczny
  wrote:

  
  Is there some reason to prefer
one of this two keys for tagging whatever ferry is a paid one?
  

What do the cross channel ferries have for UK to France? 

Ha. They don't have a tag on them to indicate that payment is
required. 
Not done on UK to Spain either...
Not for England to Isle of Man
Not for the Orkney ferries either

Toll for England to Ireland 


  
  
  I feel that toll tag is better
as it is part of road structure. 
  


The wiki says either toll or fee. So use what you like. 

  
  
  For recreational cruises fee
may fit better but tagging it as route=ferry is
  
  tagging for renderer anyway.
  
  
  
  As far as popularity in data
goes - both tags have at this moment basically the same
popularity.



  

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Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 19 giu 2019, alle ore 13:08, Martin Koppenhoefer 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> The term „toll“ applies to usage fees for roads, bridges and tunnels (I 
> think, I am not a native speaker though), it doesn’t seem right for a ferry.


I just noticed the wiki has exactly the same requirements for the toll tag:
„Use toll=* to indicate that a fee must be paid by general traffic to use a 
road, road bridge or road tunnel.“

so clearly it doesn’t fit for ferries, and we shouldn’t suggest it in the wiki 
on the ferry page...

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Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 19 giu 2019, alle ore 10:24, Mateusz Konieczny 
>  ha scritto:
> 
> I feel that toll tag is better as it is part of road structure.


for me a ferry is not part of the road structure. The term „toll“ applies to 
usage fees for roads, bridges and tunnels (I think, I am not a native speaker 
though), it doesn’t seem right for a ferry.

For a ferry, „fare“ seems the right term for the transportation ticket. A fee 
would be something additional to the fare.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 19 giu 2019, alle ore 10:22, Mark Wagner  ha 
> scritto:
> 
>  To my untrained eye, it's nearly perfect:
> four meters wide, quality asphalt paving, no cross slope, and
> effectively flat.  But apparently that "effectively" isn't good enough:
> an elevation gain of five meters over the course of a 700-meter run is
> enough to defeat a wheelchair user.


this means 0,7% incline on average, which shouldn’t be a problem. Maybe there 
were other problems as well?

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I asked my wife (native American English speaker) how she would
describe a ferry that wasn't free. She thought of paying a fare first,
for foot ferries, but when pressed suggested that "Toll ferry" was
better than something with "fee"

Searching online, I'm finding results for both "toll ferry" and "fee
ferry" from official ferry website, so it seems both terms are used in
parts of the Egnlish-speaking world.

In Washington State, the regulations refer to "toll ferries" along
with "toll bridges":
https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Ferries/infodesk/faq/terms/

And this link from England refers to a "toll ferry":
https://www.roads.org.uk/articles/studland-motor-road/making-motor-road

So it looks like this is a reasonable usage based on plain language.

On 6/19/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> Il giorno 19 giu 2019, alle ore 13:08, Martin Koppenhoefer
>>  ha scritto:
>>
>> The term „toll“ applies to usage fees for roads, bridges and tunnels (I
>> think, I am not a native speaker though), it doesn’t seem right for a
>> ferry.
>
>
> I just noticed the wiki has exactly the same requirements for the toll tag:
> „Use toll=* to indicate that a fee must be paid by general traffic to use a
> road, road bridge or road tunnel.“
>
> so clearly it doesn’t fit for ferries, and we shouldn’t suggest it in the
> wiki on the ferry page...
>
> Cheers, Martin

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Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag

[Colin Smale]

On 2019-06-19 13:49, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

> I asked my wife (native American English speaker) how she would
> describe a ferry that wasn't free. She thought of paying a fare first,
> for foot ferries, but when pressed suggested that "Toll ferry" was
> better than something with "fee"
> 
> Searching online, I'm finding results for both "toll ferry" and "fee
> ferry" from official ferry website, so it seems both terms are used in
> parts of the Egnlish-speaking world.

Based on my knowledge of the UK I would suggest that a legal footing is
required to levy a toll. The bridges, tunnels and roads where a toll is
called a toll are the subject of an Act of Parliament (which may be
hundreds of years old). These routes are public highways, which means
you can't stop people using them - hence the need for a special licence.
(Actually motorways are technically not public highways, but that's a
different issue.) 

That doesn't preclude private parties for charging for the use of
private infrastructure, but that is just a "fee" or a "charge" or a
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 18 giu 2019, alle ore 18:43, Markus  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> Are these signed wheelchair routes? If so, i would create a type=route + 
> route=wheelchair relation.


actually these are hiking routes, which are also advertised as suitable for 
wheelchairs, they are not only wheelchair routes, they are mainly hiking routes.

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag

[Evan Derickson]

Also FWIW, Washington State Ferries are considered part of the state
highway system. For example:
https://app.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=47.17.080

"Fare" is more common than "toll" here (
https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/ferries/fares/) but I don't recall ever hearing
"fee" in the context of a ferry.

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019, 04:55 Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> I asked my wife (native American English speaker) how she would
> describe a ferry that wasn't free. She thought of paying a fare first,
> for foot ferries, but when pressed suggested that "Toll ferry" was
> better than something with "fee"
>
> Searching online, I'm finding results for both "toll ferry" and "fee
> ferry" from official ferry website, so it seems both terms are used in
> parts of the Egnlish-speaking world.
>
> In Washington State, the regulations refer to "toll ferries" along
> with "toll bridges":
> https://www.wsdot.wa.gov/Ferries/infodesk/faq/terms/
>
> And this link from England refers to a "toll ferry":
> https://www.roads.org.uk/articles/studland-motor-road/making-motor-road
>
> So it looks like this is a reasonable usage based on plain language.
>
> On 6/19/19, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> >
> >
> > sent from a phone
> >
> >> Il giorno 19 giu 2019, alle ore 13:08, Martin Koppenhoefer
> >>  ha scritto:
> >>
> >> The term „toll“ applies to usage fees for roads, bridges and tunnels (I
> >> think, I am not a native speaker though), it doesn’t seem right for a
> >> ferry.
> >
> >
> > I just noticed the wiki has exactly the same requirements for the toll
> tag:
> > „Use toll=* to indicate that a fee must be paid by general traffic to
> use a
> > road, road bridge or road tunnel.“
> >
> > so clearly it doesn’t fit for ferries, and we shouldn’t suggest it in the
> > wiki on the ferry page...
> >
> > Cheers, Martin
>
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[Tagging] product of a landuse=vineyard

[marc marc]

Hello,

a contributor on talk-fr would like to provide more information
about a vineyard.
The question that arises is the tag to link the vineyard to the wine.
Let's avoid a site relation, it was quickly very complicated given
the cross-links between many actors.
I'm thinking about a tag like for:product=* set on a landuse=vineyard

what's do you think about it ?

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Kevin Kenny]

On Wed, Jun 19, 2019 at 4:26 AM Mark Wagner  wrote:
> After learning that the trail from the Old Faithful viewing area to
> Castle Geyser isn't considered wheelchair-accessible, I've given up on
> the idea that wheelchair-accessibility is something that mere mortals
> are capable of determining.  To my untrained eye, it's nearly perfect:
> four meters wide, quality asphalt paving, no cross slope, and
> effectively flat.  But apparently that "effectively" isn't good enough:
> an elevation gain of five meters over the course of a 700-meter run is
> enough to defeat a wheelchair user.

Where did you find the information that it's inaccessible? What I see
in the listing for the area is:

Upper Geyser Basin - Old Faithful Geyser is accessible from the
visitor center, Old Faithful Inn, and Old Faithful Lodge. An
accessible bike/pedestrian path leads from the visitor center 1.5
miles to Morning Glory Pool (3 miles round trip). This path is also
accessible from the Lower Yellowstone General Stores downhill from the
Old Faithful Inn. Castle Geyser and Crested Pool are only 0.2 miles
from this point. This access also reduces the round-trip distance to
Morning Glory Pool to 2.4 miles.

If the trail is accessible all the way to Morning Glory Pool, then
surely it's accessible on the much shorter distance to Castle Geyser.

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Re: [Tagging] product of a landuse=vineyard

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 19. Juni 2019 um 16:48 Uhr schrieb marc marc <
marc_marc_...@hotmail.com>:

> Hello,
>
> a contributor on talk-fr would like to provide more information
> about a vineyard.
> The question that arises is the tag to link the vineyard to the wine.
> Let's avoid a site relation, it was quickly very complicated given
> the cross-links between many actors.
> I'm thinking about a tag like for:product=* set on a landuse=vineyard
>
> what's do you think about it ?




Can you explain what you mean with "the wine"? Is this about the grape
variety? Or about the kind of wine that the winemaker makes out of it? Or
the name /brand of the winemaker?
For the latter, there are brand and operator. For the kind of wine, I would
say it is not suitable (you cannot see from the vineyard which kind of
process will be use to make the wine). If it is about the grape variety,
this seems indeed interesting detail and would be tagged on the vineyard.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] product of a landuse=vineyard

[marc marc]

Le 19.06.19 à 17:50, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> Am Mi., 19. Juni 2019 um 16:48 Uhr schrieb marc marc :
>> The question that arises is the tag to link the vineyard to the wine.
>> I'm thinking about a tag like for:product=* set on a landuse=vineyard
> 
> Can you explain what you mean with "the wine"?

some vineyards have a sign that says "here grapes are produced
for xyz wine"
the name indicated is often the corresponding pdo product.
PDO=protected designation of origin

> Is this about the grape variety?

no (species taxon genus may be used for this)

> Or the name /brand of the winemaker?

sometime, but not all landuse=vineyard are owned by a winemaker.
so the brand of the winemaker is not a brand for the landuse=vineyard
moreover, the same vineyard can be linked to many different brands
of wine, the aim is not to reach this level of detail

> you cannot see from the vineyard which 
> kind of process will be use to make the wine

except if it's the goal of the sign the mapper want to add in osm :)
the same thing exists for cider, cheese, foie gras, ham.

another idea: network=name of the PDO product

Regards,
Marc
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Feature Name)

[Mhairi O'Hara]

Hello Tagging Mailing List,

We would like to bring your attention and comments on the proposal for the
staff_count:doctors and staff_count:nurses tags, which helps identify the
number of doctors and nurses at a given health facility [1][2]. The
operational_status tag, which has been proposed before and I would like to
highlight again, as this is used to document an observation of the current
functional status of a mapped feature (i.e. health facility) [3]. The
health_amenity:type tag is also being proposed, as this indicates what type
of speciality medical equipment is available at the health facility [4] and
the final tag is insurance:health which describes the type of health
insurance accepted at a health facility [5].

Some of these are already in use but have never been formally accepted, or
properly described as to how they should be applied, which we would like to
try and achieve if possible for the Healthsites.io project. Please take a
look at the proposal pages on the OSM Wiki, as well as the Global
Healthsites Mapping Project page [2] which is at the core of the recent
work focused on creating a health facility data model. We look forward to
discussing these proposals on the respective Wiki discussion pages.

Kind regards,

Mhairi

[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:doctors
[2]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:nurses
[3]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status
[4]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:health_amenity:type
[5]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:insurance:health
[6]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Global_Healthsites_Mapping_Project#Tag_Proposal


-- 
*Mhairi O'Hara*
Project Manager
mhairi.oh...@hotosm.org
@mataharimhairi


*Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
*Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
web 
 |  twitter 
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 |  donate 
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Re: [Tagging] refugee camp

[Jan S]

I think that we basically have to distinguish between two types of migrant
or refugee camps.

On the one hand there are established camps that have developed an urban
structure, with shops, services etc. People often live in these camps over
long periods of time (in case of the Palestinians even several
generations), but may still officially be refugees or migrants, because
they're not granted another permanent residence status under the laws of
the hosting state. In some situations, these places have become so
permanent, that they're in fact like municipalities, although they may not
be officially recognized as such. If these places have reached such a level
of development and don't receive new migrants or refugees (e.g. the
Palestinian refugee camps in Gaza or the West Bank), I wouldn't even tag
them as refugee camps, because on the ground they couldn't be distinguished
from any other town. This might apply to the camp in Thailand mentioned
blow, but also camps for Palestinian or Syrian refugees in Arab countries.
IMO, these camps should simply be tagged as place=*. According to the "on
the ground" rule, if they are similar to any other town in the respective
area, they should probably even not be tagged as refugee camps at all
(except in the name of the place).

On the other hand, there are more temporary camps, such as
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dadaab. These camps are much more makeshift
and continue to receive migrants or refugees. They are quite clearly
distinguishable from other towns in the area. Also, there are temporary
housing facilites for migrants and refugees in many countries, where asylum
seekers are sheltered during their asylum procedure, and they're relocated
to normal flats after some time. Due to the provisional structure or their
character as short-term housing, I'd suggest that these facilites be tagged
as refugee camps. Still, the tag "social_facility=shelter" doesn't seem to
be appropriate, as it is used fot shelters with even shorter occupation
(for people affected by natural disasters or homeless people for a night
etc.). I'd therefore propose to introduce a new tag,
"social_facility=refugee_camp", exclusively for this type of facility.

Best,
Jan




I did not add a refugee=yes tag. I tagged it as a place=town because my
> quick search for alternatives came up empty and there are about 50,000
> people living there. That way, at least the camp name shows up on maps and
> is searchable. I'll retag it based on what we decide here.
>
> On Tue, Jun 11, 2019 at 12:06 PM Violaine_Do  > wrote:
>
> >* Hi,
> *>>* Did you think about adding refugee=yes tag on place=* ?
> *>>* There were also an idea, if you have the boundary to develop rules
> *>* around boundary, similar to boundary = administrative to
> *>* boundary=refugee see
> *>>* 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Refugee_Camp_Boundaries 
> 
> *>>* I also think is is something to dig in and happy to help...
> *>>* Best,
> *>>* V
> *>>* On 11/06/2019 05:39, Jan S wrote:
> *>* >
> *>* > Am 10. Juni 2019 22:05:53 MESZ schrieb Dave Swarthout <
> *>* daveswarthout at gmail.com 
> >:
> *>* >> The refugee camps I'm familiar with in Thailand are not social
> *>* >> facilities
> *>* >> except in an incidental way. They are essentially internment camps
> *>* >> surrounded by fences with guarded gates where undocumented aliens are
> *>* >> kept.
> *>* >> They are landuse=residential because they're isolated areas in the
> *>* >> countryside and contain permanent dwellings but having no other way to
> *>* >> tag
> *>* >> it at the time, I tagged a big refugee camp near Mae Sot as place=town
> *>* >> and
> *>* >> name=Mae La Refugee Camp. As for the refugee aspect, I made a note and
> *>* >> left
> *>* >> it at that.*
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I've just checked 3 here in Australia - 2 car & 1 foot only.

All 3 websites quote their "fares", but the 2 car ferries also make
reference to "fees"!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Feature Name)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi Mhairi

Couple of questions & comments for you thanks.

On Thu, 20 Jun 2019 at 06:22, Mhairi O'Hara  wrote:

>
> We would like to bring your attention and comments on the proposal for the
> staff_count:doctors and staff_count:nurses tags, which helps identify the
> number of doctors and nurses at a given health facility [1][2].
>

With regard to staff, what number do you want - the total staff posted to
this facility, or the number usually available at any time?

eg our local Medical Centre (which I know isn't an emergency facility, but
is still an example) has 9 GPs & 6 nurses in all, but only 6 Dr's & 3
nurses are usually on deck at any time during the week, while over the
weekend, that drops to 2 + 1. So would you want staff as 9 + 6 or 6 + 3?

& in regard to the same thing for major facilities, once again, how do you
want to count them?

eg this hospital has 100 Doctors, made up of 20 Emergency, 10 surgeons, 5
obstetricians, 5 anaesthetists, 30 general medical staff, 10 specialists of
various types & so on. They work 2 shifts of 40 (8, 4, 2, 2 etc) each day,
with a skeleton staff of 20 (4, 2, 1, 1 ...) available over night. So is
that a count of 100 Doctors or 40?


> the final tag is insurance:health which describes the type of health
> insurance accepted at a health facility [5].
>

I understand what you're getting at here, but the example you give:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/File:Healthinsurance-osm-germany.png,
appears to relate to the business / customer service office of the Health
Insurance company, & nothing actually to do with hospital charges!

I'm afraid that that one may become impossible to specify & maintain?

I don't know how things operate overseas, but here in Australia you have
both public & private hospitals.

Basically, anyone can use a public hospital, more or less for free, but for
non-emergencies, there will be a (sometimes) lengthy delay before one of
their specialists can see you.

Private hospitals are usually only open to those people who have private
health insurance, but their are ~40 private health insurers in Australia, &
not all of them have arrangements with every private hospital. So for each
of them, you would have to list all the companies (possibly 40) that are
accepted at the hospital, which would mean approaching every hospital &/or
insurance company to confirm that this hospital does indeed accept this
cover.

Please don't get me wrong, it's an admirable task! :-), but there's a few
more details to work out.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Feature Name)

[marc marc]

Hello,

Le 19.06.19 à 22:17, Mhairi O'Hara a écrit :
> Hello Tagging Mailing List,

imho you request too many comment in one email,
the thread 'll soon become unmanageable

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:doctors
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:nurses

there is a difficulty in using osm for volatile data: should the value 
in osm be changed each time a staff member is on vacation? or should
the definition of the tag be changed to say that it describes the 
average value outside of a particular event? but in this case, if the 
amenity double its staff temporarily for an event, how will the user 
know this since the average value does not take it into account ?

for the tag itself, a more common namespace would have been
doctors:count or doctors:avg:count (or :capacity if it's about
the capacity)

> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status

amenity=toilets for a closed toilets is an exemple of bad tagging.
see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status#Shares_the_same_problems_as_the_old_styles_of_using_disused.2Fabandoned
but the tag itself is an improvement for "not fully closed" amenity.

> [4] 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:health_amenity:type

please check the approved and 10x more used 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare
what's new/diff in your propal ? the previous propal said 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Healthcare_2.0#What_healthcare.3D.2A_is_lacking
but you are talking about taginfo usage but nearly all of them
have already a "more in used tag"
you also said "speciality medical equipment", but some of them aren't
an equipement (psychologist, dentist,...) so it's very unclear what
you want todo, just valid the tag without any value ? bad idea.
show the need that existing tag miss, not an "openbar" rational.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] refugee camp

[Violaine_Do]

I wanted to point out also a few questions or thoughts : i am not sure 
it is ok (or pretty sure it is dangerous) to tag houses or group of 
houses with refugee=yes because it is quite localised and could be a 
sensitive information.


Then I am not a big fan of 
amenity=social_facility+social_facility:for=refugee for spotting a whole 
camp, as it is recurrent that there is social facilities in this camp, 
and so it will lead to errors such as "impossible to have an amenity 
inside an amenity".


Looking forward to read HOT views,

Thks

On 12/06/2019 23:29, Rupert Allan wrote:

Hello all,
Thanks Violaine, for sharing this. Yes, we did a lot of work on these 
semantics and tagging in the Ugandan context. We use refugee = yes, 
because designated refugee areas are not always 'camps' (settlements, 
urban blocks, etc).


'Camp' can be pejorative/othering in certain contexts. IDPs as 
Internally Displayed Persons are certainly refugees. I copy-in Paul 
Uithol and Deo Kiggudde to collaborate in this discussion. Having 
limited online access, I will monitor and comment more next week, once 
back online proper.

Best,

Rupert



On Wed, 12 Jun 2019, 21:45 Violaine, > wrote:



fyi, i think you could help on this discussion...

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: [Tagging] refugee camp
Date:   Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:44:34 -1000
From:   Violaine_Do 

Reply-To:   violaine_...@posteo.de 
Organization:   OSM
To: Martin Koppenhoefer 
, daveswarth...@gmail.com
, Tag discussion, strategy and
related tools 

CC: Rupert Allan 




As wikipedia (1) seems to say refugee camp implies internally
displaced people it seem ok to me. (i was wondering if IDP was a
type of refugees or different)

Maybe add a refugee_camp:for=refugee/idp..., refugee_camp:type=
informal/...

I still want to point out that there is more than 2500 use of
refugee=yes (2) so I add Allan to this discussion, hoping he has
some more field feedbacks, what having this new tag would imply..

1:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee_camp

2:https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/refugee#overview

On 11/06/2019 21:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:




I would prefer something like refugee_camp=yes or similar.

Cheers, Martin


-- 
Violaine_Do



--
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Re: [Tagging] refugee camp

[Warin]

It is a land use, residential .. at least on a temporary basis. possibly 
landuse=residential, residential=migrants?
This avoids the over used amenity key. Most renders will render it 
unidentified from other residential area and HOT can use their own 
rendering to identify it.


On 20/06/19 09:49, Violaine_Do wrote:



I wanted to point out also a few questions or thoughts : i am not sure 
it is ok (or pretty sure it is dangerous) to tag houses or group of 
houses with refugee=yes because it is quite localised and could be a 
sensitive information.


Then I am not a big fan of 
amenity=social_facility+social_facility:for=refugee for spotting a 
whole camp, as it is recurrent that there is social facilities in this 
camp, and so it will lead to errors such as "impossible to have an 
amenity inside an amenity".


Looking forward to read HOT views,

Thks

On 12/06/2019 23:29, Rupert Allan wrote:

Hello all,
Thanks Violaine, for sharing this. Yes, we did a lot of work on these 
semantics and tagging in the Ugandan context. We use refugee = yes, 
because designated refugee areas are not always 'camps' (settlements, 
urban blocks, etc).


'Camp' can be pejorative/othering in certain contexts. IDPs as 
Internally Displayed Persons are certainly refugees. I copy-in Paul 
Uithol and Deo Kiggudde to collaborate in this discussion. Having 
limited online access, I will monitor and comment more next week, 
once back online proper.

Best,

Rupert



On Wed, 12 Jun 2019, 21:45 Violaine, > wrote:



fyi, i think you could help on this discussion...

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: [Tagging] refugee camp
Date:   Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:44:34 -1000
From:   Violaine_Do 

Reply-To:   violaine_...@posteo.de 
Organization:   OSM
To: Martin Koppenhoefer 
, daveswarth...@gmail.com
, Tag discussion, strategy and
related tools 

CC: Rupert Allan 




As wikipedia (1) seems to say refugee camp implies internally
displaced people it seem ok to me. (i was wondering if IDP was a
type of refugees or different)

Maybe add a refugee_camp:for=refugee/idp..., refugee_camp:type=
informal/...

I still want to point out that there is more than 2500 use of
refugee=yes (2) so I add Allan to this discussion, hoping he has
some more field feedbacks, what having this new tag would imply..

1:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee_camp

2:https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/refugee#overview

On 11/06/2019 21:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:




I would prefer something like refugee_camp=yes or similar.

Cheers, Martin


-- 
Violaine_Do




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Re: [Tagging] paid ferry - fee or toll tag

[Warin]

The Oxford Dictionary says

Toll : A charge payable to use a bridge or road.

Fee : A payment made to a professional person or to a professional or 
public body in exchange for advice or services.


I would go with fee, keep tolls for roads + bridges.
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Re: [Tagging] refugee camp boundaries [was:Re: refugee camp]

[Violaine_Do]

Hi,

Thks Marc, I also like boundary=refugee_camp and camp_level=* with 1 for 
camp boundary, 2 for first division such as zone, 3 for second division 
such as sector, and 4 for 3rd division such as bloc. Or can we start 
from 0 there, would make more sense camp_level=1 for first admin division.


I wouldn't go for boundary=internal as it is shared with every actor on 
the camp and refugees including IDP (internal dispaced persons). It is 
not like a firm, and internal sections or areas, I think.





On 13/06/2019 06:18, marc marc wrote:

Le 11.06.19 à 22:06, Violaine_Do a écrit :

boundary=refugee see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Refugee_Camp_Boundaries 


I agree with a boundary= because
boundary=administrative is wrong when it'sn't a administrative boundary
but it's the same issue with admin_level, using it for any
not-administrative boundary is incoherent
another value that may be better boundary=camp camp_level=*
or boundary=internal (not a public boundary, just the one
used by one operator for it's own objects)
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Re: [Tagging] refugee camp

[Violaine_Do]

Yes, I would prefer that too... Let's see what others think..

On 19/06/2019 14:18, Warin wrote:
It is a land use, residential .. at least on a temporary basis. 
possibly landuse=residential, residential=migrants?
This avoids the over used amenity key. Most renders will render it 
unidentified from other residential area and HOT can use their own 
rendering to identify it.


On 20/06/19 09:49, Violaine_Do wrote:



I wanted to point out also a few questions or thoughts : i am not 
sure it is ok (or pretty sure it is dangerous) to tag houses or group 
of houses with refugee=yes because it is quite localised and could be 
a sensitive information.


Then I am not a big fan of 
amenity=social_facility+social_facility:for=refugee for spotting a 
whole camp, as it is recurrent that there is social facilities in 
this camp, and so it will lead to errors such as "impossible to have 
an amenity inside an amenity".


Looking forward to read HOT views,

Thks

On 12/06/2019 23:29, Rupert Allan wrote:

Hello all,
Thanks Violaine, for sharing this. Yes, we did a lot of work on 
these semantics and tagging in the Ugandan context. We use refugee = 
yes, because designated refugee areas are not always 'camps' 
(settlements, urban blocks, etc).


'Camp' can be pejorative/othering in certain contexts. IDPs as 
Internally Displayed Persons are certainly refugees. I copy-in Paul 
Uithol and Deo Kiggudde to collaborate in this discussion. Having 
limited online access, I will monitor and comment more next week, 
once back online proper.

Best,

Rupert



On Wed, 12 Jun 2019, 21:45 Violaine, > wrote:



fyi, i think you could help on this discussion...

 Forwarded Message 
Subject:Re: [Tagging] refugee camp
Date:   Wed, 12 Jun 2019 10:44:34 -1000
From:   Violaine_Do 

Reply-To:   violaine_...@posteo.de 
Organization:   OSM
To: Martin Koppenhoefer 
, daveswarth...@gmail.com
, Tag discussion, strategy and
related tools 

CC: Rupert Allan 




As wikipedia (1) seems to say refugee camp implies internally
displaced people it seem ok to me. (i was wondering if IDP was a
type of refugees or different)

Maybe add a refugee_camp:for=refugee/idp..., refugee_camp:type=
informal/...

I still want to point out that there is more than 2500 use of
refugee=yes (2) so I add Allan to this discussion, hoping he has
some more field feedbacks, what having this new tag would imply..

1:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refugee_camp

2:https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/refugee#overview

On 11/06/2019 21:51, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:




I would prefer something like refugee_camp=yes or similar.

Cheers, Martin


-- 
Violaine_Do





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Feature Name)

[Violaine_Do]

In the main wiki page referencing those tag propals, Global Healthsites 
Mapping Project indicates the use of electricity tag which is a proposal 
for now. It seems interesting for me to consider also : 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:electricity


for those who would have this time.

Thks

On 19/06/2019 12:55, marc marc wrote:

Hello,

Le 19.06.19 à 22:17, Mhairi O'Hara a écrit :

Hello Tagging Mailing List,

imho you request too many comment in one email,
the thread 'll soon become unmanageable


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:doctors
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:nurses

there is a difficulty in using osm for volatile data: should the value
in osm be changed each time a staff member is on vacation? or should
the definition of the tag be changed to say that it describes the
average value outside of a particular event? but in this case, if the
amenity double its staff temporarily for an event, how will the user
know this since the average value does not take it into account ?

for the tag itself, a more common namespace would have been
doctors:count or doctors:avg:count (or :capacity if it's about
the capacity)


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status

amenity=toilets for a closed toilets is an exemple of bad tagging.
see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status#Shares_the_same_problems_as_the_old_styles_of_using_disused.2Fabandoned
but the tag itself is an improvement for "not fully closed" amenity.


[4]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:health_amenity:type

please check the approved and 10x more used
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare
what's new/diff in your propal ? the previous propal said
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Healthcare_2.0#What_healthcare.3D.2A_is_lacking
but you are talking about taginfo usage but nearly all of them
have already a "more in used tag"
you also said "speciality medical equipment", but some of them aren't
an equipement (psychologist, dentist,...) so it's very unclear what
you want todo, just valid the tag without any value ? bad idea.
show the need that existing tag miss, not an "openbar" rational.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] product of a landuse=vineyard

[Warin]

On 20/06/19 03:44, marc marc wrote:

Le 19.06.19 à 17:50, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :

Am Mi., 19. Juni 2019 um 16:48 Uhr schrieb marc marc :

 The question that arises is the tag to link the vineyard to the wine.
 I'm thinking about a tag like for:product=* set on a landuse=vineyard

Can you explain what you mean with "the wine"?

some vineyards have a sign that says "here grapes are produced
for xyz wine"
the name indicated is often the corresponding pdo product.
PDO=protected designation of origin


Warning. Splitting hairs!
The product, that wine, does not come from the vineyard.
The vineyard has a produce of the grape that goes into the wine maker.

Possibly a key 'source_of=*'??? I don't see renders using it. So I don't see 
much point it it.




Is this about the grape variety?

no (species taxon genus may be used for this)


Or the name /brand of the winemaker?

sometime, but not all landuse=vineyard are owned by a winemaker.
so the brand of the winemaker is not a brand for the landuse=vineyard
moreover, the same vineyard can be linked to many different brands
of wine, the aim is not to reach this level of detail


you cannot see from the vineyard which
kind of process will be use to make the wine

except if it's the goal of the sign the mapper want to add in osm :)
the same thing exists for cider, cheese, foie gras, ham.

another idea: network=name of the PDO product





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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Warin]

On 19/06/19 21:21, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


Il giorno 18 giu 2019, alle ore 18:43, Markus  ha 
scritto:

Are these signed wheelchair routes? If so, i would create a type=route + 
route=wheelchair relation.


actually these are hiking routes, which are also advertised as suitable for 
wheelchairs, they are not only wheelchair routes, they are mainly hiking routes.



In which case I would simply add wheelchair=yes to them, as the OSMwiki says 
"suitable to be used with a wheelchair".


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Feature Name)

[Warin]

On 20/06/19 08:55, marc marc wrote:

Hello,

Le 19.06.19 à 22:17, Mhairi O'Hara a écrit :

Hello Tagging Mailing List,

imho you request too many comment in one email,
the thread 'll soon become unmanageable


+1




https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:doctors
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:nurses

there is a difficulty in using osm for volatile data: should the value
in osm be changed each time a staff member is on vacation? or should
the definition of the tag be changed to say that it describes the
average value outside of a particular event? but in this case, if the
amenity double its staff temporarily for an event, how will the user
know this since the average value does not take it into account ?


The data is not that volatile. Temporary staff comes in where that is 
necessary, usually for smaller facilities.
Larger facilities shuffle staff around as they can with larger numbers.



for the tag itself, a more common namespace would have been
doctors:count or doctors:avg:count (or :capacity if it's about
the capacity)


Staff:*=* could be used in more places. So I think that is a better approach.




https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status

amenity=toilets for a closed toilets is an exemple of bad tagging.
see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status#Shares_the_same_problems_as_the_old_styles_of_using_disused.2Fabandoned
but the tag itself is an improvement for "not fully closed" amenity.


I would use the description key for these temporary things. Has the advantage 
of already implemented and infinatly variable.




[4]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:health_amenity:type

please check the approved and 10x more used
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare
what's new/diff in your propal ? the previous propal said
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Healthcare_2.0#What_healthcare.3D.2A_is_lacking
but you are talking about taginfo usage but nearly all of them
have already a "more in used tag"
you also said "speciality medical equipment", but some of them aren't
an equipement (psychologist, dentist,...) so it's very unclear what
you want todo, just valid the tag without any value ? bad idea.
show the need that existing tag miss, not an "openbar" rational.


Possibly a 'service' key .. but not the word service as that is in too much use 
and maybe confused with other things?
However, the services offered will be limited by the equipment available so it 
maybe better to limit the tagging to that?
e.g. Dental_Engine, MRI, Xray, operating_theatre ???


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (Feature Name)

[Joseph Eisenberg]

I agree that this discussion should be in 5 different threads, one for
each tag, so I will respond in that way, and on the individual pages.

In general, I appreciate the work that you are doing on this, but I
don't think you should rely too much on the abandoned healthcare 2.0
proposal - it wasn't very well though out.

I'm a physician from the USA who lives in eastern Indonesia, and I'd
be happy to give some help to this project if you want to contact me
directly.

On 6/20/19, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 20/06/19 08:55, marc marc wrote:
>> Hello,
>>
>> Le 19.06.19 à 22:17, Mhairi O'Hara a écrit :
>>> Hello Tagging Mailing List,
>> imho you request too many comment in one email,
>> the thread 'll soon become unmanageable
>
> +1
>
>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:doctors
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:nurses
>> there is a difficulty in using osm for volatile data: should the value
>> in osm be changed each time a staff member is on vacation? or should
>> the definition of the tag be changed to say that it describes the
>> average value outside of a particular event? but in this case, if the
>> amenity double its staff temporarily for an event, how will the user
>> know this since the average value does not take it into account ?
>
> The data is not that volatile. Temporary staff comes in where that is
> necessary, usually for smaller facilities.
> Larger facilities shuffle staff around as they can with larger numbers.
>
>>
>> for the tag itself, a more common namespace would have been
>> doctors:count or doctors:avg:count (or :capacity if it's about
>> the capacity)
>
> Staff:*=* could be used in more places. So I think that is a better
> approach.
>
>>
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status
>> amenity=toilets for a closed toilets is an exemple of bad tagging.
>> see
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status#Shares_the_same_problems_as_the_old_styles_of_using_disused.2Fabandoned
>> but the tag itself is an improvement for "not fully closed" amenity.
>
> I would use the description key for these temporary things. Has the
> advantage of already implemented and infinatly variable.
>
>>
>>> [4]
>>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:health_amenity:type
>> please check the approved and 10x more used
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:healthcare
>> what's new/diff in your propal ? the previous propal said
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Healthcare_2.0#What_healthcare.3D.2A_is_lacking
>> but you are talking about taginfo usage but nearly all of them
>> have already a "more in used tag"
>> you also said "speciality medical equipment", but some of them aren't
>> an equipement (psychologist, dentist,...) so it's very unclear what
>> you want todo, just valid the tag without any value ? bad idea.
>> show the need that existing tag miss, not an "openbar" rational.
>
> Possibly a 'service' key .. but not the word service as that is in too much
> use and maybe confused with other things?
> However, the services offered will be limited by the equipment available so
> it maybe better to limit the tagging to that?
> e.g. Dental_Engine, MRI, Xray, operating_theatre ???
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:staff_count:doctors

[Joseph Eisenberg]

1) staff_count:doctors

Please clarify how this tag is to be used and how mappers can
determine the information.

Should it be the total number of physician's names listed on a sign at
a clinic, or the average number of doctors in the clinic on a
particular day? At large hospitals how should this information be
checked and updated?

For example, would it include only staff physicians, all physicians
with admitting privileges, or all physicians that can come as
consultants? What about medical doctors who serve in purely
administrative roles?

Are NPs and PAs included (i.e. mid-level providers)?

While it may be reasonable to count the number of physician names
listed on a sign at the entrance to a clinic or specialty office, it
might not be possible to confirm the number of physicians employed by
a large medical center. See Verifiability -
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability - approved tags
should be things that an ordinary mapper can confirm to be true or
false.

- Joseph Eisenberg, M.D.

On 6/20/19, Mhairi O'Hara  wrote:
> Hello Tagging Mailing List,
>
> We would like to bring your attention and comments on the proposal for the
> staff_count:doctors and staff_count:nurses tags, which helps identify the
> number of doctors and nurses at a given health facility [1][2]. The
> operational_status tag, which has been proposed before and I would like to
> highlight again, as this is used to document an observation of the current
> functional status of a mapped feature (i.e. health facility) [3]. The
> health_amenity:type tag is also being proposed, as this indicates what type
> of speciality medical equipment is available at the health facility [4] and
> the final tag is insurance:health which describes the type of health
> insurance accepted at a health facility [5].
>
> Some of these are already in use but have never been formally accepted, or
> properly described as to how they should be applied, which we would like to
> try and achieve if possible for the Healthsites.io project. Please take a
> look at the proposal pages on the OSM Wiki, as well as the Global
> Healthsites Mapping Project page [2] which is at the core of the recent
> work focused on creating a health facility data model. We look forward to
> discussing these proposals on the respective Wiki discussion pages.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Mhairi
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:doctors
> [2]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:nurses
> [3]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status
> [4]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:health_amenity:type
> [5]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:insurance:health
> [6]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Global_Healthsites_Mapping_Project#Tag_Proposal
>
>
> --
> *Mhairi O'Hara*
> Project Manager
> mhairi.oh...@hotosm.org
> @mataharimhairi
>
>
> *Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
> *Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
> web 
>  |  twitter 
>  |  facebook 
>  |  donate 
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:staff_count:nurses

[Joseph Eisenberg]

2) "staff_count:nurses="

*A. Source of information for this tag?

How should individual mappers find out the number of nurses at a
healthcare facility? If this information is imported from an external
source, how can it be kept up-to-date?

Most clinics in the USA do not show a list of nurses who work at the
facility. While large hospitals may provide this information to the
government, it may not be easy to find.

Here in Indonesia there is often an organizational chart at the clinic
which shows the staff who are supposed to work at the facility, but
often only 1 or 2 or 0 of these staff members will actually be in the
clinic on any given week. Sometimes they have been gone all year

*B. Total staff or average number each day?

Should this number be the total number of nurses employed at the
facility or the total who are working each day?

*C. RNs, CNAs, NPs, Midwives?

In some countries there are many types of nurses. For example in the
USA there are RNs (Registered Nurses), CNAs (certified nursing
assistants), NPs (Nurse Practitioners), Nurse midwives, etc. - and
here in Indonesia there are midwives, official nurses, and lower-level
nursing care providers.

Which of these categories is to be included in the number of nurses?

-Joseph Eisenberg M.D.

On 6/20/19, Mhairi O'Hara  wrote:
> Hello Tagging Mailing List,
>
> We would like to bring your attention and comments on the proposal for the
> staff_count:doctors and staff_count:nurses tags, which helps identify the
> number of doctors and nurses at a given health facility [1][2]. The
> operational_status tag, which has been proposed before and I would like to
> highlight again, as this is used to document an observation of the current
> functional status of a mapped feature (i.e. health facility) [3]. The
> health_amenity:type tag is also being proposed, as this indicates what type
> of speciality medical equipment is available at the health facility [4] and
> the final tag is insurance:health which describes the type of health
> insurance accepted at a health facility [5].
>
> Some of these are already in use but have never been formally accepted, or
> properly described as to how they should be applied, which we would like to
> try and achieve if possible for the Healthsites.io project. Please take a
> look at the proposal pages on the OSM Wiki, as well as the Global
> Healthsites Mapping Project page [2] which is at the core of the recent
> work focused on creating a health facility data model. We look forward to
> discussing these proposals on the respective Wiki discussion pages.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Mhairi
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:doctors
> [2]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:nurses
> [3]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status
> [4]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:health_amenity:type
> [5]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:insurance:health
> [6]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Global_Healthsites_Mapping_Project#Tag_Proposal
>
>
> --
> *Mhairi O'Hara*
> Project Manager
> mhairi.oh...@hotosm.org
> @mataharimhairi
>
>
> *Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
> *Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
> web 
>  |  twitter 
>  |  facebook 
>  |  donate 
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - health_amenity:type

[Joseph Eisenberg]

4) health_amenity:type

I think the key "healthcare" should be used instead of the new key
health_amenity:type". If it's necessary to tag an MRI facility
separately, then create a tag like "healthcare=mri".

 However, it may be more useful to use a tag like "mri=yes" on the
main amenity=hospital or the radiology department within the medical
centre - this tag would let mappers say that "this hospital contains
an MRI" without requiring mappers to precisely locate the MRI
equipment within the building. This would also make it easier for
database users: they can just check for "amenity=hospital" + "mri=yes"
rather than doing a spacial query to find MRI nodes within or near an
amenity=hospital feature


On 6/20/19, Mhairi O'Hara  wrote:
> Hello Tagging Mailing List,
>
> We would like to bring your attention and comments on the proposal for the
> staff_count:doctors and staff_count:nurses tags, which helps identify the
> number of doctors and nurses at a given health facility [1][2]. The
> operational_status tag, which has been proposed before and I would like to
> highlight again, as this is used to document an observation of the current
> functional status of a mapped feature (i.e. health facility) [3]. The
> health_amenity:type tag is also being proposed, as this indicates what type
> of speciality medical equipment is available at the health facility [4] and
> the final tag is insurance:health which describes the type of health
> insurance accepted at a health facility [5].
>
> Some of these are already in use but have never been formally accepted, or
> properly described as to how they should be applied, which we would like to
> try and achieve if possible for the Healthsites.io project. Please take a
> look at the proposal pages on the OSM Wiki, as well as the Global
> Healthsites Mapping Project page [2] which is at the core of the recent
> work focused on creating a health facility data model. We look forward to
> discussing these proposals on the respective Wiki discussion pages.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Mhairi
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:doctors
> [2]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:nurses
> [3]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status
> [4]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:health_amenity:type
> [5]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:insurance:health
> [6]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Global_Healthsites_Mapping_Project#Tag_Proposal
>
>
> --
> *Mhairi O'Hara*
> Project Manager
> mhairi.oh...@hotosm.org
> @mataharimhairi
>
>
> *Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
> *Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
> web 
>  |  twitter 
>  |  facebook 
>  |  donate 
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:insurance:health

[Joseph Eisenberg]

5) insurance:health

The proposal suggests values of "no", "public", "private" and "unknown".

Most of these values are not very helpful in most countries.

"insurance:health=no" might be useful in the rare instance that a
private clinic or facility does not directly accept any form of health
insurance for payment, however this is rare.

"insurance:health=public" is not very specific. This might be
sufficient in a country where there is only one public,
government-administered insurance plan. However, here in Indonesia
there are 2 common public insurance plans in my province, so it would
be much more useful to use the name of the insurance as the value, eg
"insurance:health=BPJS" and "insurance:health=Papua_Sehat". In the USA
there is Medicare and various local versions of Medicaid in each
state, in addition to hmo-managed Medicare and Medicaid plans.

"insurance:health=private" is even less useful. I don't think this tag
is helpful at all, because each private insurance plan is different.
Similarly, "insurance:health=unknown" should not be used, because it
doesn't provide any information.

This suggests a problem for counties like the USA or Germany where
there are dozens or hundreds of health insurance companies with many
different health plans, each of which may be accepted by a different
list of physicians and health facilities. Would a USA hospital be
tagged with a list of 100 different insurance company and plan
combinations? This would be hard to manage and maintain by most
openstreetmap mappers.

-Joseph Eisenberg M.D.

On 6/20/19, Mhairi O'Hara  wrote:
> Hello Tagging Mailing List,
>
> We would like to bring your attention and comments on the proposal for the
> staff_count:doctors and staff_count:nurses tags, which helps identify the
> number of doctors and nurses at a given health facility [1][2]. The
> operational_status tag, which has been proposed before and I would like to
> highlight again, as this is used to document an observation of the current
> functional status of a mapped feature (i.e. health facility) [3]. The
> health_amenity:type tag is also being proposed, as this indicates what type
> of speciality medical equipment is available at the health facility [4] and
> the final tag is insurance:health which describes the type of health
> insurance accepted at a health facility [5].
>
> Some of these are already in use but have never been formally accepted, or
> properly described as to how they should be applied, which we would like to
> try and achieve if possible for the Healthsites.io project. Please take a
> look at the proposal pages on the OSM Wiki, as well as the Global
> Healthsites Mapping Project page [2] which is at the core of the recent
> work focused on creating a health facility data model. We look forward to
> discussing these proposals on the respective Wiki discussion pages.
>
> Kind regards,
>
> Mhairi
>
> [1]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:doctors
> [2]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:nurses
> [3]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status
> [4]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:health_amenity:type
> [5]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:insurance:health
> [6]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Global_Healthsites_Mapping_Project#Tag_Proposal
>
>
> --
> *Mhairi O'Hara*
> Project Manager
> mhairi.oh...@hotosm.org
> @mataharimhairi
>
>
> *Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
> *Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*
> web 
>  |  twitter 
>  |  facebook 
>  |  donate 
>

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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 20.06.2019 um 03:15 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> 
> In which case I would simply add wheelchair=yes to them, as the OSMwiki says 
> "suitable to be used with a wheelchair".


In which case I will repeat my sentence from #15:
if we would use “yes” we could not distinguish those which are promoted from 
those that are simply suitable

(designated)

Cheers, Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Warin]

On 20/06/19 16:06, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


Am 20.06.2019 um 03:15 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

In which case I would simply add wheelchair=yes to them, as the OSMwiki says 
"suitable to be used with a wheelchair".


In which case I will repeat my sentence from #15:
if we would use “yes” we could not distinguish those which are promoted from 
those that are simply suitable

(designated)



OSM tags toilets that are wheelchair 'suitable' etc. So I see no problem here.

If you mean the difference between a mapper who thinks something is wheelchair 
suitable compared to a mapper who uses a sign or brochure to judge it .. use 
the source key for that.

Promotion? No tag for it, some places have promotion from time to time, some 
all the time, some none of the time.

If you want some indication on the level of confidence in the tagging .. we 
don't require it for any other feature, why start here?


Do you want a grading system for wheelchair accessibility? Similar to surface 
smoothness etc?
I'm not going there. And I would not put it on the key wheelchair=*





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Tag:tourism=camp_pitch

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Voting for tourism=camp_pitch has been open for 1 week, and there are
now 16 votes in favor and 1 vote in opposition. Voting will continue
for another week until 2019-6-28 as scheduled.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_pitch

On 6/14/19, Joseph Eisenberg  wrote:
> The proposal for the feature tag tourism=camp_pitch is now open for voting.
>
> This is a follow-up to the rejected proposal for camp_site=camp_pitch
>
> The proposed tag tourism=camp_pitch provides a way to tag individual
> pitches within a campsite (a.k.a. "campground" in American English) or
> caravan site ("RV Park, American English).
>
> A "camp pitch" in this context is the free space used to place a tent
> or or caravan within a tourism=camp_site or tourism=caravan_site area.
> The pitch must be located within an area tagged with one of these two
> existing tags.
>
> This proposal would deprecate the currently in-use tags
> camp_site=camp_pitch and camp_site=pitch, preferring instead
> tourism=camp_pitch
>
> Please read the proposal and vote:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_pitch
>

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tag:insurance:health

[Warin]

On 20/06/19 16:17, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:

5) insurance:health

The proposal suggests values of "no", "public", "private" and "unknown".

Most of these values are not very helpful in most countries.

"insurance:health=no" might be useful in the rare instance that a
private clinic or facility does not directly accept any form of health
insurance for payment, however this is rare.

"insurance:health=public" is not very specific. This might be
sufficient in a country where there is only one public,
government-administered insurance plan. However, here in Indonesia
there are 2 common public insurance plans in my province, so it would
be much more useful to use the name of the insurance as the value, eg
"insurance:health=BPJS" and "insurance:health=Papua_Sehat". In the USA
there is Medicare and various local versions of Medicaid in each
state, in addition to hmo-managed Medicare and Medicaid plans.

"insurance:health=private" is even less useful. I don't think this tag
is helpful at all, because each private insurance plan is different.
Similarly, "insurance:health=unknown" should not be used, because it
doesn't provide any information.

This suggests a problem for counties like the USA or Germany where
there are dozens or hundreds of health insurance companies with many
different health plans, each of which may be accepted by a different
list of physicians and health facilities. Would a USA hospital be
tagged with a list of 100 different insurance company and plan
combinations? This would be hard to manage and maintain by most
openstreetmap mappers.


There are also tourist, some have insurance of many kinds, some have no 
insurance.

Then there are reciprocal medical care agreements between countries for 
nationals travelling to the respective countries using the national medical 
care programs.

One local hospital requires a flat $200 fee before admittance... the specialist 
I went to there charged about that for a 10 minute consultation.. I had 3 of 
them.



On 6/20/19, Mhairi O'Hara  wrote:

Hello Tagging Mailing List,

We would like to bring your attention and comments on the proposal for the
staff_count:doctors and staff_count:nurses tags, which helps identify the
number of doctors and nurses at a given health facility [1][2]. The
operational_status tag, which has been proposed before and I would like to
highlight again, as this is used to document an observation of the current
functional status of a mapped feature (i.e. health facility) [3]. The
health_amenity:type tag is also being proposed, as this indicates what type
of speciality medical equipment is available at the health facility [4] and
the final tag is insurance:health which describes the type of health
insurance accepted at a health facility [5].

Some of these are already in use but have never been formally accepted, or
properly described as to how they should be applied, which we would like to
try and achieve if possible for the Healthsites.io project. Please take a
look at the proposal pages on the OSM Wiki, as well as the Global
Healthsites Mapping Project page [2] which is at the core of the recent
work focused on creating a health facility data model. We look forward to
discussing these proposals on the respective Wiki discussion pages.

Kind regards,

Mhairi

[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:doctors
[2]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:staff_count:nurses
[3]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:operational_status
[4]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:health_amenity:type
[5]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Tag:insurance:health
[6]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Global_Healthsites_Mapping_Project#Tag_Proposal





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