[Tagging] roles in relations

[Paul Johnson]

I'm trying to figure out both who and why keeps changing roles on relations
from "forward/backward" which makes sense and can be easily sorted and
checked to "north/south/east/west", which only makes sense of the child is
another relation in a super-relation.  US 75 in Oklahoma, for example,
which I'm currently working on, has suffered this, as have Interstates in
the region.

Also making a plea to *not* do this and instead use the sensible
forward/backward roles; incorrect tagging becomes confusing and a real pain
to troubleshoot.

If cardinal direction specificity is that important for a particularly
confusing route, then create a super with child relations (and in the super
use the cardinal directions as roles) with the child relations tagged with
direction= in addition to the usual tagging.
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Re: [Tagging] Landuse=forestRY?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 11:43:00 +1100
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi,
> The present multiple applications landuse=forest has me thinking that
> a new tag of
> 
> landuse=forestry
> 
> maybe best to focus this new tag onto a specific forest use - that of 
> wood production.
> 
> In the longer term the tag landuse=forest can eventually be
> depreciated .. people can migrate the older tagged things into
> 
> Use;
> landuse=forestry  for wood producing areas
> leisure=nature_reserve for areas of nature preservation
> natural=wood for areas covered with trees not used

Note that landuse=forestry would include areas not covered by trees and
used for forestry. Starting from forester's house
( https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/le%C5%9Bnicz%C3%B3wka#pl ).

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Re: [Tagging] Landuse=forestRY?

[Warin]

On 28/12/2015 3:42 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 11:43:00 +1100
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:


Hi,
The present multiple applications landuse=forest has me thinking that
a new tag of

landuse=forestry

maybe best to focus this new tag onto a specific forest use - that of
wood production.

In the longer term the tag landuse=forest can eventually be
depreciated .. people can migrate the older tagged things into

Use;
landuse=forestry  for wood producing areas
leisure=nature_reserve for areas of nature preservation
natural=wood for areas covered with trees not used

Note that landuse=forestry would include areas not covered by trees and
used for forestry. Starting from forester's house
( https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/le%C5%9Bnicz%C3%B3wka#pl ).



Yes!
land use = forestry.  To do with growing trees and making stuff from them.
Thus the saw mill, drying and storage sheds. A residence ... not certain 
of.

Are residences of factory workers included in a landuse=factory?

To indicate that trees are there ... i.e. land cover ... landcover=trees.

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Re: [Tagging] roles in relations

[John Willis]

> On Dec 27, 2015, at 6:02 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> 
> I'm trying to figure out both who and why keeps changing roles on relations 
> from "forward/backward" which makes sense and can be easily sorted and 
> checked to "north/south/east/west",

I have no idea about such things, but maybe they are trying to replicate the 
"northbound/southbound/eastbound/westbound" cardinal directions we use on most 
freeways in the US. Perhaps they don't want to put it in the road name, like: " 
Interstate 8 (westbound)" .  In Japan we have the "up" and "down" concept, 
leading to town "上" and leading away from the bigger town "下" to label the 
different road & rail directions, usually from Tokyo or a regional capital. 
Besides the name field for the road, I'm not sure where to put such 
information. Perhaps there is some other relation field or basic tag 
(cardinal_Direction=*) we can create to tag this information, though for 
display purposes, perhaps the name field is best. Thoughts? 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] Landuse=forestRY?

[tomoya muramoto]

Hi all,

I understand your proposal. But I think "landuse=forestry" should be
consistent with "landuse=farmland/farmyard".
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmland
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmyard

Then "tree area" would be "landuse=forest-land", and "forester's house"
would be "landuse=forest-yard". (Of course more appropriate words should be
chosen.)

However I think we should clarify how to distinguish
landuse/landcover(/surface) first as these proposals.
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landcover
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rudolf/draft_landcover

muramoto


2015-12-28 6:31 GMT+09:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 28/12/2015 3:42 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
>
>> On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 11:43:00 +1100
>> Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>> The present multiple applications landuse=forest has me thinking that
>>> a new tag of
>>>
>>> landuse=forestry
>>>
>>> maybe best to focus this new tag onto a specific forest use - that of
>>> wood production.
>>>
>>> In the longer term the tag landuse=forest can eventually be
>>> depreciated .. people can migrate the older tagged things into
>>>
>>> Use;
>>> landuse=forestry  for wood producing areas
>>> leisure=nature_reserve for areas of nature preservation
>>> natural=wood for areas covered with trees not used
>>>
>> Note that landuse=forestry would include areas not covered by trees and
>> used for forestry. Starting from forester's house
>> ( https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/le%C5%9Bnicz%C3%B3wka#pl ).
>>
>>
> Yes!
> land use = forestry.  To do with growing trees and making stuff from them.
> Thus the saw mill, drying and storage sheds. A residence ... not certain
> of.
> Are residences of factory workers included in a landuse=factory?
>
> To indicate that trees are there ... i.e. land cover ... landcover=trees.
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Landuse=forestRY?

[John Willis]

> On Dec 28, 2015, at 8:11 AM, tomoya muramoto  wrote:
> 
> Then "tree area" would be "landuse=forest-land", and "forester's house" would 
> be "landuse=forest-yard". (Of course more appropriate words should be chosen.)

-1

I like your thinking on this, but in this situation it is wrong. Usually the 
place that grows the logs and the place that processes the logs are very far 
apart and have different names. Since the trees grow for a long time and are 
not cared for daily, the equipment is usually brought in for cutting the trees 
and then it leaves - so there is no "yard" nearby. 

Forestry is a very specific term meant for forest management (which might 
include logging or other economic uses) a region would have a few 
"forestry-yards" to deal with the forests and wood in the area - they would be 
a mill or lumberyard or similar. 

Just like all the cedar trees being grown in Japan, almost all of them are in 
rural areas with little to no houses - and the trees are cut down and taken by 
truck to a mill for cutting & processing. People that live nearby may be 
farmers or even the land owner - but they usually don't process the wood there 
and it is not cared for daily (usually yearly), so no "yard full of tools and 
supplies" is there next to the trees. 

There are exceptions to this, but compared to farmland/farmyard, it is very 
different - most places (like Japan) that are full of farms are also full of 
farmyards - but that is not true for forestry. The hills around Kiryu are 
covered with cedar trees, but the mills are all here in town, cutting the cedar 
into planks.  

Forestry (AFAIK) is "trees become X" - wood, fuel, paper - like the cedars.  

If it is  "trees produce X" (rubber, cork, sap, syrup), this is an orchard 
situation, though I wish they would have "plantation" for these uses - as 
"orchard" makes you think of Apple trees or avocados or some fruit making plant 
- not a person harvesting maple syrup from trees with tubes or harvesting latex 
sap from rubber trees. 

So landuse=forestry for the trees 
And landuse=industrial for the mill (and whatever building tags go with a mill) 
Seems to be a better choice than forestry-yard. The rest falls under orchard.

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] Landuse=forestRY?

[Warin]

On 28/12/2015 10:11 AM, tomoya muramoto wrote:

Hi all,

I understand your proposal. But I think "landuse=forestry" should be 
consistent with "landuse=farmland/farmyard".

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmland
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dfarmyard

Then "tree area" would be "landuse=forest-land", and "forester's 
house" would be "landuse=forest-yard". (Of course more appropriate 
words should be chosen.)



Landuse=orchard does not have this 'problem'? And landuse=vineyard would 
be very confusing
And the recent discussion on swimming pools and their change rooms etc 
has a suggestion that all the things can exist under one tag.
If people want to tag those .. well they will be buildings for the saw 
mill and drying shed .. so they can be separately tagged if desired.

If really needed then landuse=forestry_yard could be used?



However I think we should clarify how to distinguish 
landuse/landcover(/surface) first as these proposals.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/landcover
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:Rudolf/draft_landcover


Those proposals/ideas have been in existence for years.

Simple definitions of;
Land USE is what humans use the land for.
Land COVER is what you see covering the surface of the globe.
I think that is fairly clear?

The problems arise from the values of these keys and the way in which 
people use them.


I am trying to get a good value that reduces the confusion and mixed use 
of landuse=forest tag to something better?


Rudolf suggests that landuse=forest be transferred to landcover - thus 
again demonstrating a problem with landuse=forest!


The common understanding of the word 'forest' is .. an area of trees. 
This is not an active 'use'.
The common understanding of the word 'forestry' is .. an activity that 
uses trees to make products. This is a 'use'.


--
Landcover ... is a separate topic that would take much discussion ... 
you can see it from my initial addition to Rudolf page -

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User_talk:Rudolf/draft_landcover ...






muramoto


Thanks... interesting views on the farmland and farmyard thing that I 
was not aware of.



2015-12-28 6:31 GMT+09:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
>:


On 28/12/2015 3:42 AM, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:

On Sun, 27 Dec 2015 11:43:00 +1100
Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com >
wrote:

Hi,
The present multiple applications landuse=forest has me
thinking that
a new tag of

landuse=forestry

maybe best to focus this new tag onto a specific forest
use - that of
wood production.

In the longer term the tag landuse=forest can eventually be
depreciated .. people can migrate the older tagged things into

Use;
landuse=forestry  for wood producing areas
leisure=nature_reserve for areas of nature preservation
natural=wood for areas covered with trees not used

Note that landuse=forestry would include areas not covered by
trees and
used for forestry. Starting from forester's house
( https://pl.wiktionary.org/wiki/le%C5%9Bnicz%C3%B3wka#pl ).


Yes!
land use = forestry.  To do with growing trees and making stuff
from them.
Thus the saw mill, drying and storage sheds. A residence ... not
certain of.
Are residences of factory workers included in a landuse=factory?

To indicate that trees are there ... i.e. land cover ...
landcover=trees.


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