Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 18.09.2015 um 07:33 schrieb Colin Smale :
> 
> Can we assume the houses at the ends of terraces are to be tagged as semi 
> detached?



My dictionary believes those are called "end-terrace_house" (in German 
"Reihenendhaus"), while the semidetached house in German would be 
"Doppelhaushälfte". 


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 09/18/2015 07:33 AM, Colin Smale wrote:
> Can we assume the houses at the ends of terraces are to be tagged as
> semi detached? This needs a bit more thinking through...

When someone adds copious "is_in" tags to things, or when they create
relations like "all cycleways in Cambridge", we tell them: Don't bother
doing that, we use a spatial database, and we can compute these things
from the data.

I'd say the same applies to houses. Whether something is one half of a
double house, or semi-detached, or terraced, or free-standing - isn't
that something that I can automatically determine by looking at the
nearby mapped buildings?

Or is the redundancy desirable so that we can then write new debugging
tools ("house at end of row but not tagged as semi-detached", etc?)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[Ruben Maes]

Thursday 17 September 2015 16:48:48, Martin Koppenhoefer:
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
> > Am 17.09.2015 um 16:29 schrieb Ruben Maes :
> > 
> > building:type=semidetached_house,
> 
> is ok for me. We should write a definition into the wiki, thank you for 
> preparing a proposal.
> 
> > building:type=dwelling_house,
> 
> is this a house where someone is living? I prefer the values detached house 
> and villa, maybe also hut/cabin? 
> 
> > building:type=row_house and
> 
> I believe these are the same as terraced houses?
> 
> > building:type=multi_storey.
> 
> quite generic, we also have apartments, condominium, tower, office_tower, ...
> basically you can see by building_levels tag how many storeys a building has.

Yes, that was my point ;)
None of those values are OK, but iD wants us to embrace semidetached_house?

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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[Ruben Maes]

Friday 18 September 2015 09:47:12, Frederik Ramm:
> When someone adds copious "is_in" tags to things, or when they create
> relations like "all cycleways in Cambridge", we tell them: Don't bother
> doing that, we use a spatial database, and we can compute these things
> from the data.
> 
> I'd say the same applies to houses. Whether something is one half of a
> double house, or semi-detached, or terraced, or free-standing - isn't
> that something that I can automatically determine by looking at the
> nearby mapped buildings?
> 
> Or is the redundancy desirable so that we can then write new debugging
> tools ("house at end of row but not tagged as semi-detached", etc?)

I thought that at first about building=detached as well. If I remember 
correctly, someone said that figuring it out is a database query that takes 
long.

The original import tagging page [1] says semidetached_house is used for 
Doppelhäuser which is not exactly the same as just two houses that share a 
wall, right? For example: I wouldn't consider these houses[2] semi-detached 
because they have a very different architecture and no shared roof, while I 
would have to think twice about these ones[3]. Their architecture and colour is 
the same, but they have a flat, not-really-shared roof IIRC.

According to Wiktionary, it is called a duplex in American English, in British, 
Australian and Canadian English a semi and in all Englishes a semi-detached. 
That would make the "house" part even unnecessary, but useful to understand the 
meaning of the tag (unlike building=detached).

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Rostock:Geb%C3%A4ude_und_Strukturen
[2] http://osm.org/go/0EhfysLT0?m=
[3] http://osm.org/go/0EhfynMd2?m=

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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[moltonel 3x Combo]

On 18/09/2015, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> I'd say the same applies to houses. Whether something is one half of a
> double house, or semi-detached, or terraced, or free-standing - isn't
> that something that I can automatically determine by looking at the
> nearby mapped buildings?

+1 I've always tagged those as "house". I try my best to avoid
building=yes and disntinguish all building types, but the various
detached variants I don't bother with. I'm much more likely to tag
roof:shape from imagery and building:levels from surveying.

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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 18.09.2015 um 10:00 schrieb Ruben Maes :
> 
> None of those values are OK, but iD wants us to embrace semidetached_house?


I believe to recall that this value was discussed at least on the German 
mailing list, I don't perceive it as pushed by iD.


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 18.09.2015 um 09:47 schrieb Frederik Ramm :
> 
> I'd say the same applies to houses. Whether something is one half of a
> double house, or semi-detached, or terraced, or free-standing - isn't
> that something that I can automatically determine by looking at the
> nearby mapped buildings?


you can only infer this if you know some details about the typology of the 
parts (residential building, one "main household"), otherwise two buildings 
(=yes) attached to each other could be any kind of constellation. 

We do tag the difference of single household residential buildings from multi 
family buildings, we do even differentiate between  terraced houses and 
detached houses, where is the redundancy if we describe a building as 
semi-detached_house rather than as detached_house, in cases where it applies?

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone
> Am 18.09.2015 um 10:20 schrieb Ruben Maes :
> 
> Doppelhäuser which is not exactly the same as just two houses that share a 
> wall, right?


it depends how you use the word "Doppelhaus". Legally it means 2 touching 
houses on 2 parcels. Architectonically it means 2 more or less symmetric 
buildings that touch. They don't have to share the same materials or colours 
(mostly they do, sometimes they don't), but rather the building layout/facades. 
Completely different buildings touching at one side are called differently 
(einseitig angebaut, etc.) 

Considering the roof, under German law (and likely in other places as well) 
each building has to form a fire compartment on its own, extending from the 
underground/ground to the roof, so that the fire won't pass from one to the 
other, but depending on the details you might not be able to see it. A very 
good indication are 2 symmetric front doors, e.g.
http://www.beissner-hochbau.de/biga-doppelhaus-klinkerfassade-auhagen-hausbau-hannover.htm#bild



> 
> According to Wiktionary, it is called a duplex in American English,



in Germany, a duplex is an apartment with several floors (typically 2), with 
their private staircase. 


> in British, Australian and Canadian English a semi


which is likely an abbreviation for semi-detached house 


> and in all Englishes a semi-detached. That would make the "house" part even 
> unnecessary, but useful to understand the meaning of the tag (unlike 
> building=detached).


the latter could also be detached_house and would be easier to understand for 
foreigners, maybe 


cheers 
Martin 
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - aeroway=heliport (was: Re: Heliport tagging)

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 03.09.2015 16:21, Mateusz Konieczny napisał(a):


Using different tagging for heliports and airports supporting planes
seems to be a good idea.


So here is my quick draft documenting aeroway=heliport scheme:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/aeroway%3Dheliport

Definition: Aerodrome for helicopters.

I don't think it needs much more explanations, since the change would be 
rather clear, but still all the comments are welcome!


--
"The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags 
down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - aeroway=heliport (was: Re: Heliport tagging)

[Dave Swarthout]

It's not all that clear to me. Are you proposing the tag aeroway=heliport
to be used in the specific case of a helipad that is part of a regular
airport instead of using aeroway=helipad?

If so, do you recommend we continue using the helipad tagging in the case
of a separate facility for helicopters only?

Cheers

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 7:52 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:

> W dniu 03.09.2015 16:21, Mateusz Konieczny napisał(a):
>
> Using different tagging for heliports and airports supporting planes
>> seems to be a good idea.
>>
>
> So here is my quick draft documenting aeroway=heliport scheme:
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/aeroway%3Dheliport
>
> Definition: Aerodrome for helicopters.
>
> I don't think it needs much more explanations, since the change would be
> rather clear, but still all the comments are welcome!
>
> --
> "The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags
> down" [A. Cohen]
>
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - aeroway=heliport

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 18.09.2015 15:31, Dave Swarthout napisał(a):

It's not all that clear to me. Are you proposing the tag
aeroway=heliport to be used in the specific case of a helipad that is
part of a regular airport instead of using aeroway=helipad?

If so, do you recommend we continue using the helipad tagging in the
case of a separate facility for helicopters only?


According to Wikipedia definition:

"A heliport is a small airport suitable only for use by helicopters. 
Heliports typically contain one or more helipads and may have limited 
facilities such as fuel, lighting, a windsock, or even hangars. In 
larger towns and cities, customs facilities may be available at a 
heliport."


[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliport ]

Helipad is just a landing place (for example some hospitals have them 
alone), heliport is more than this, so they are not the same. Look at 
this heliport:


http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/108957278

It's tiny and have only one helipad, but the infrastructure contains 
some terminals and the apron.


--
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down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - aeroway=heliport

[Dave Swarthout]

Okay, that's clearer.

Thanks.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 8:44 PM, Daniel Koć  wrote:

> W dniu 18.09.2015 15:31, Dave Swarthout napisał(a):
>
>> It's not all that clear to me. Are you proposing the tag
>> aeroway=heliport to be used in the specific case of a helipad that is
>> part of a regular airport instead of using aeroway=helipad?
>>
>> If so, do you recommend we continue using the helipad tagging in the
>> case of a separate facility for helicopters only?
>>
>
> According to Wikipedia definition:
>
> "A heliport is a small airport suitable only for use by helicopters.
> Heliports typically contain one or more helipads and may have limited
> facilities such as fuel, lighting, a windsock, or even hangars. In larger
> towns and cities, customs facilities may be available at a heliport."
>
> [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heliport ]
>
> Helipad is just a landing place (for example some hospitals have them
> alone), heliport is more than this, so they are not the same. Look at this
> heliport:
>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/108957278
>
> It's tiny and have only one helipad, but the infrastructure contains some
> terminals and the apron.
>
> --
> "The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags
> down" [A. Cohen]
>
> ___
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-- 
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Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] large roof garden

[Tobias Knerr]

On 14.09.2015 23:17, Richard wrote:
> if it has an assigned level=* as part of the building than that would
> be better than location=rooftop. Or maybe both together.

Both together would also be an option. The thing is, I expect this to be
commonly mapped independently from the indoor environment, as it's
usually possible to map rooftop features from aerial imagery. So the
ability to map it shouldn't depend on indoor mapping imo.

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[Tagging] New types of pedestrian highways?

[Daniel Koć]

We had a lot of problems related to rendering paths and footways in 
osm-carto. In the end it was clear we don't know exactly what both these 
types are, because many people have many different assumptions. Not even 
paved/unpaved classification is satisfactory for everybody.


That's why I think we may need more of such types and I wrote about it 
in the issue comment ( 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1842#issuecomment-141425312 
), so let me quote myself:


"I sometimes think we should have some more specific (foot)way types, 
like:


- park/cemetery/allotment alley (they should be rendered later, as they 
tend to be local and rather dense); highway=pedestrian is advised, but 
this is different enough IMO than this, so maybe highway=alley + alley=* 
then.


- outdoor/touristic/mountain path (those should be rendered earlier and 
probably more intense, because they are for longer distances and rather 
the most important thing in such places); maybe highway=outdoor + 
outdoor=* then.


- sidewalk (probably more important than alleys, but less than outdoor 
path); highway=footway + footway=sidewalk is already meant for this.


I guess general type of such ways are easier to use than demanding 
people adding multiple other options (which is always welcome, of 
course), because their intended use gives us good enough hints to know 
how to treat them. We have much more general types for cars, so I think 
this is the time to take care also for pedestrians."


--
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down" [A. Cohen]


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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[André Pirard]

  
  


  Am 17.09.2015 um 16:29 schrieb Ruben Maes
:
building:type=semidetached_house,
  
  

unlike what I wrote before, the correct tags seem to be, if one
wants to tag what is already in geometry:
building=house
building:type=semidetached
or better and more simply
building:semidetached=yes
which allows for multiple simultaneous types.
Just like shop is not an object but an attribute of an object
(building or else) indicating that it's fitted and used to sell
goods, house is not an object either in OSM parlance but an
attribute indicating the building is fitted for living.
It's the building that's semidetached and not the house attribute.
And, quite logically, we may also have
building=shop
building:semidetached=yes
which is nothing like a semidetached_house or a semidetached_shop.

Cheers



  

  André.

  




  


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[Tagging] Xxzme edit of wiki proposed features page voting

[Warin]

With no discussion on the relevant talk page ..

This page has been labelled for deletion.

As I use this page to check for any new proposals up for voting it forms 
an essential part of my voting on new proposals.


Are there any who support the deletion of this page?


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Re: [Tagging] Semi-detached houses: undocumented iD preset

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 5:02 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
> it depends how you use the word "Doppelhaus". Legally it means 2 touching
> houses on 2 parcels. Architectonically it means 2 more or less symmetric
> buildings that touch. They don't have to share the same materials or
> colours (mostly they do, sometimes they don't), but rather the building
> layout/facades. Completely different buildings touching at one side are
> called differently (einseitig angebaut, etc.)


American terms:

*duplex*: technically, one building with separate entrances.  But also used
far more broadly, and duplexes are a hot real estate term.
*duplex apartment*: single unit spread over two floors.
*triplex apartment*: single unit spread over three floors.
*condo* : single building with multiple owners.  Owners also belong to an
association, which manages the common areas.
*semidetached* or *twin*: houses that share a wall at the property line.
These are often called *duplexes*.  The haves of a twin look the same,
unless perhaps it's also a *spite house*.
*maisonette*: rough British equivalent of duplex apartment.


>From the OSM point of view it may be better to break it down to atomic
questions:

   1. Does it straddle a parcel boundary?
   2. Apartment/Deeded owners or mixed?
   3. Are the architectural styles unified?




 building=semidetached_house is a tag I don't really know what to do with,
and would thus ignore.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - aeroway=heliport

[John Willis]

> On Sep 18, 2015, at 10:50 PM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> 
> "A heliport is a small airport suitable only for use by helicopters. 
> Heliports typically contain one or more helipads and may have limited 
> facilities such as fuel, lighting, a windsock, or even hangars. In larger 
> towns and cities, customs facilities may be available at a heliport."

The only two large aerodromes in my area are both heliports

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/36.31761/139.10783

http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=16/36.4342/138.9530

Many heliports have a "runway" with a marked taxiway and official runway 
designation. This is for very large helicopters that are then towed or taxi off 
the "runway" to adjacent pads and hangars. These helipads serve as parking for 
large helis, and helipads for small ones, as well as emergency services. (First 
link)

The military ones often have very short actual runways (you could physically 
land very small planes on them) but are designated for helicopter use only. The 
large runway is used for mass landings and takeoffs, or serves vstol craft like 
an osprey, which flies as a plane, but has to take of like a helicopter (with a 
very short roll if it is heavy). (Second link)

So please note on the page tagging an actual numbered "runway" - even though it 
is just 50 feet square (or much larger for military ones)  - is proper and 
expected for some Helipads, as their designations as a "runway" are listed in 
international aerodrome information lists. 

Javbw. 
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Re: [Tagging] Xxzme edit of wiki proposed features page voting

[Clifford Snow]

What page exactly?

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> With no discussion on the relevant talk page ..
>
> This page has been labelled for deletion.
>
> As I use this page to check for any new proposals up for voting it forms
> an essential part of my voting on new proposals.
>
> Are there any who support the deletion of this page?
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Xxzme edit of wiki proposed features page voting

[Warin]

Sorry .. I've had some time now to think on it ... the page is here
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Proposed_features_%22Voting%22

What struck me .. was  .. no discussion, not even on  the talk page of 
the wiki.


the 'new' page here
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Category:Proposals_with_%22Voting%22_status

changes the title of the page from
Category:Proposed_features_ "Voting"
to
Category:Proposals with "Voting" status

not a large change but ... where is there any though to others? After 
his past history I would have though some consultation would be a the 
first step, rather than just do it. I see little advantage to the change.



On 19/09/2015 12:04 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:

What page exactly?

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 4:54 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


With no discussion on the relevant talk page ..

This page has been labelled for deletion.

As I use this page to check for any new proposals up for voting it
forms an essential part of my voting on new proposals.

Are there any who support the deletion of this page?


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