[Tagging] RFD Camp ground Kitchens and their fittings

[Frank]

Hi,

Follow a thread on another forum (non OSM, but talking about side 
issues) I think the following things should be mapped to add information 
to the map in regards some, mainly commercial, camp grounds that have 
communal kitchens;


stove top (no, not a bbq)
microwave_oven
fridge (or refrigerator to give it a fuller name?)
sink

Most of these have a simple roof structure, leaving all or most sides 
open, a few tables and chairs. But it is the above features that make it 
better and something I'd look for.


These features may eventually make there way onto indoor mapping too.

They are all man_made so could go there. So all those features under 
'man_made'? What ideas/preferences are there? I, as a beginner, could 
simply slot them in there .. but I don't like it .. but have no better 
idea.




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[Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

[S Volk]

Hi,I've been mapping on Africa in HOT tasks and around, I've seen some 
cisterns, also know that some humanitarian NGOs have made many cisterns  on 
Africa (also water_wells).
Question:How to tag a cistern (it seems to be not like what is shown for 
"landuse=reservoir"; rather a small "man made" reservoir, on ground level or 
escavated, for either natural or treated water)?
Or, in addition, since there are tags for "man_made=water_well, 
"man_made=water_tower", wouldn't it be worth to have a tag like 
"man_made=cistern"? 
Thank you in advance, regards,Sérgio (user:SergioAJV)svo...@hotmail.com
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Re: [Tagging] RFD Camp ground Kitchens and their fittings

[Dave Swarthout]

There is much that needs to be done to bring OSM up to speed regarding
camping facilities IMO. We have only a very few tags tourism=camp_site,
tourism=caravan_site, and in a stretch, leisure=summer camp to describe the
myriad of facilities out there.

AFAIK, there is no way to distinguish a primitive camp site from one that
caters to motorized tourists, or one that offers kitchen facilities to
customers. In New Zealand many campgrounds have a shared kitchen area,
which they refer to as an "ablution block", that includes assorted pots and
pans and a source of hot water. A very nice feature indeed.

I don't have any suggestions but want to wish you luck on getting your
tagging resolved.

Cheers,
Dave

On Sat, Jan 31, 2015 at 10:43 AM, Frank  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Follow a thread on another forum (non OSM, but talking about side issues)
> I think the following things should be mapped to add information to the map
> in regards some, mainly commercial, camp grounds that have communal
> kitchens;
>
> stove top (no, not a bbq)
> microwave_oven
> fridge (or refrigerator to give it a fuller name?)
> sink
>
> Most of these have a simple roof structure, leaving all or most sides
> open, a few tables and chairs. But it is the above features that make it
> better and something I'd look for.
>
> These features may eventually make there way onto indoor mapping too.
>
> They are all man_made so could go there. So all those features under
> 'man_made'? What ideas/preferences are there? I, as a beginner, could
> simply slot them in there .. but I don't like it .. but have no better idea.
>
>
>
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>



-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] RFD Camp ground Kitchens and their fittings

[Warin]

On 1/02/2015 7:47 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
There is much that needs to be done to bring OSM up to speed regarding 
camping facilities IMO. We have only a very few tags 
tourism=camp_site, tourism=caravan_site, and in a stretch, 
leisure=summer camp to describe the myriad of facilities out there.


AFAIK, there is no way to distinguish a primitive camp site from one 
that caters to motorized tourists, or one that offers kitchen 
facilities to customers. In New Zealand many campgrounds have a shared 
kitchen area, which they refer to as an "ablution block", that 
includes assorted pots and pans and a source of hot water. A very nice 
feature indeed.


? Umm according to wiki and corresponds to my understanding abolition is 
cleaning oneself. So showers? Nothing to do with preparing or cooking 
food.. They couldbe in the same structure .. but an abolition block may 
not have food facilities.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ablution
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ablution



I don't have any suggestions but want to wish you luck on getting your 
tagging resolved.


Cheers,
Dave


Thanks.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

[Warin]

On 31/01/2015 10:49 AM, S Volk wrote:


Hi,
I've been mapping on Africa in HOT tasks and around, I've seen some 
cisterns, also know that some humanitarian NGOs have made many 
cisterns  on Africa (also water_wells).


Question:
How to tag a cistern (it seems to be not like what is shown for 
"landuse=reservoir"; rather a small "man made" reservoir, on ground 
level or escavated, for either natural or treated water)?


Or, in addition, since there are tags for "man_made=water_well, 
"man_made=water_tower", wouldn't it be worth to have a tag like 
"man_made=cistern"?


Thank you in advance, regards,
Sérgio (user:SergioAJV)
svo...@hotmail.com




A 'cistern' has a mechanism for keeping a water level stable, commonly 
used in toilets. And OSM has no tag for that feature (yet). They are 
connected to a water supply with some pressure behind it.


 I'd think you want to map the provision of water?
If it is 'drinkable' then the generic amenity=drinking_water would suit?
If non potable then amenity=watering_place ?

If you don't know if it is drinkable then assume not, so use 
amenity=watering_place ? Maybe add a note ?





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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

[Volker Schmidt]

"cistern" in English implies underground or covered.

You want something like
man_made=water_tank (unfortunately often used as firw-water tank)

or
man_made=storage
storage=water

On 31 January 2015 at 00:49, S Volk  wrote:

>
> Hi,
> I've been mapping on Africa in HOT tasks and around, I've seen some
> cisterns, also know that some humanitarian NGOs have made many cisterns  on
> Africa (also water_wells).
>
> Question:
> How to tag a cistern (it seems to be not like what is shown for
> "landuse=reservoir"; rather a small "man made" reservoir, on ground level
> or escavated, for either natural or treated water)?
>
> Or, in addition, since there are tags for "man_made=water_well, "man_made=
> water_tower", wouldn't it be worth to have a tag like "man_made=cistern"?
>
> Thank you in advance, regards,
> Sérgio (user:SergioAJV)
> svo...@hotmail.com
>
>
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>
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

[Volker Schmidt]

The Wikipedia defintion of "cistern" is much wider than the toilet cistern:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistern




On 1 February 2015 at 10:21, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  On 31/01/2015 10:49 AM, S Volk wrote:
>
>
>  Hi,
> I've been mapping on Africa in HOT tasks and around, I've seen some
> cisterns, also know that some humanitarian NGOs have made many cisterns  on
> Africa (also water_wells).
>
>  Question:
> How to tag a cistern (it seems to be not like what is shown for
> "landuse=reservoir"; rather a small "man made" reservoir, on ground level
> or escavated, for either natural or treated water)?
>
>  Or, in addition, since there are tags for "man_made=water_well,
> "man_made=water_tower", wouldn't it be worth to have a tag like
> "man_made=cistern"?
>
>  Thank you in advance, regards,
> Sérgio (user:SergioAJV)
> svo...@hotmail.com
>
>
>
> A 'cistern' has a mechanism for keeping a water level stable, commonly
> used in toilets. And OSM has no tag for that feature (yet). They are
> connected to a water supply with some pressure behind it.
>
>  I'd think you want to map the provision of water?
> If it is 'drinkable' then the generic amenity=drinking_water would suit?
> If non potable then amenity=watering_place ?
>
> If you don't know if it is drinkable then assume not, so use 
> amenity=watering_place
> ? Maybe add a note ?
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

[Warin]

My error on the 'cistern'.. or rather limiting the application. I'm 
thinking of the 'ballcock' ... not a plumber.


On 1/02/2015 8:33 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
The Wikipedia defintion of "cistern" is much wider than the toilet 
cistern: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cistern





On 1 February 2015 at 10:21, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On 31/01/2015 10:49 AM, S Volk wrote:


Hi,
I've been mapping on Africa in HOT tasks and around, I've seen
some cisterns, also know that some humanitarian NGOs have made
many cisterns  on Africa (also water_wells).

Question:
How to tag a cistern (it seems to be not like what is shown for
"landuse=reservoir"; rather a small "man made" reservoir, on
ground level or escavated, for either natural or treated water)?

Or, in addition, since there are tags for "man_made=water_well,
"man_made=water_tower", wouldn't it be worth to have a tag like
"man_made=cistern"?

Thank you in advance, regards,
Sérgio (user:SergioAJV)
svo...@hotmail.com 




A 'cistern' has a mechanism for keeping a water level stable,
commonly used in toilets. And OSM has no tag for that feature
(yet). They are connected to a water supply with some pressure
behind it.

 I'd think you want to map the provision of water?
If it is 'drinkable' then the generic amenity=drinking_water would
suit?
If non potable then amenity=watering_place ?

If you don't know if it is drinkable then assume not, so use
amenity=watering_place ? Maybe add a note ?





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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

[Warin]

On 1/02/2015 8:31 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote:

"cistern" in English implies underground or covered.

You want something like
man_made=water_tank (unfortunately often used as fish?-water tank)

or
man_made=storage
storage=water

On 31 January 2015 at 00:49, S Volk > wrote:



Hi,
I've been mapping on Africa in HOT tasks and around, I've seen
some cisterns, also know that some humanitarian NGOs have made
many cisterns  on Africa (also water_wells).

Question:
How to tag a cistern (it seems to be not like what is shown for
"landuse=reservoir"; rather a small "man made" reservoir, on
ground level or escavated, for either natural or treated water)?



I don't see any limits for 'landuse=reservoir' ? So it could be used 
from small to large. And if that is the 'best fit' then use it.



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[Tagging] JOSM 7995 (January 2015) released

[Martin Vonwald]

Spreading the word. Thanks to the devs.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Dirk Stöcker 
Date: 2015-02-01 13:40 GMT+01:00
Subject: [josm-dev] JOSM 7995 (January 2015) released
To: josm-...@openstreetmap.org


Hello,

the new JOSM tested version for last month is out. Feel free to spread the
word :-)

Ciao
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

[John Willis]

Speaking of cisterns, Does this notion of "cistern are reservoirs" cover fire 
cisterns? 

In most urban and suburban areas of Japan, there are underground hydrants, but 
there are a lot of fire cisterns as well out here in rural Japan. The fire 
trucks carry a snorkel. I assume this is an old system (some look 50 years 
old), but there are tons of them - is there a fire hydrant-esque version? We're 
talking 2-3m concrete boxes with fireman only access through a manhole lid for 
the snorkel. 

The concrete boxes are often above ground and in bothersome positions (right 
next to the road), and labeled as a fire cistern on their road sign, as opposed 
to hydrant. 

I looked up the emergency=fire hydrant, and the page mentioned "pond", but 
there is still some kind of hydrant that is there as an attachment for the 
hose, whereas the cistern is merely a box with a lid. 

Maybe adding a value to:

fire_hydrant:type:cistern 
And 
fire_hydrant:water_source=cistern 

would be appropriate, so they are included in the hydrant system (as opposed to 
reservoir), where they seem to belong - or is this the case where it would get 
both tags?

Interested in how you'd tag it to be part of the hydrant system. 

Javbw

> On Feb 1, 2015, at 6:51 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 1/02/2015 8:31 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>> "cistern" in English implies underground or covered.
>> 
>> You want something like
>> man_made=water_tank (unfortunately often used as fish?-water tank)
>> 
>> or 
>> man_made=storage
>> storage=water 
>> 
>>> On 31 January 2015 at 00:49, S Volk  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> I've been mapping on Africa in HOT tasks and around, I've seen some 
>>> cisterns, also know that some humanitarian NGOs have made many cisterns  on 
>>> Africa (also water_wells).
>>> 
>>> Question:
>>> How to tag a cistern (it seems to be not like what is shown for 
>>> "landuse=reservoir"; rather a small "man made" 
>>> reservoir, on ground level or escavated, for either natural or treated 
>>> water)?
> 
> I don't see any limits for 'landuse=reservoir' ? So it could be used from 
> small to large. And if that is the 'best fit' then use it. 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

amenity =drinking_water sounds right for the drinkable water, I wouldn't use 
tank, rather also add a man_made=cistern for the kind of object

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Re: [Tagging] JOSM 7995 (January 2015) released

[François Lacombe]

Big thank to the devs !

*François Lacombe*

fl dot infosreseaux At gmail dot com
www.infos-reseaux.com
@InfosReseaux 

2015-02-01 14:04 GMT+01:00 Martin Vonwald :

> Spreading the word. Thanks to the devs.
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Dirk Stöcker 
> Date: 2015-02-01 13:40 GMT+01:00
> Subject: [josm-dev] JOSM 7995 (January 2015) released
> To: josm-...@openstreetmap.org
>
>
> Hello,
>
> the new JOSM tested version for last month is out. Feel free to spread the
> word :-)
>
> Ciao
>
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag a cistern?

[Paul Johnson]

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 3:31 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> "cistern" in English implies underground or covered.
>
> You want something like
> man_made=water_tank (unfortunately often used as firw-water tank)
>
> or
> man_made=storage
> storage=water
>

I realize there's a bit of a bikeshedding factor, but at least regionally,
homesteaders (still surprisingly common here!) refer to a large,
above-ground tank used to store drinking water as a cistern.  Usually
placed immediately adjacent to the building it serves and is fed by the
rain gutters from said structure.  Usually some kind of plastic, and in the
1500-3000 gallon range.  Also, most likely the toilets in the same building
are of the RV variety to conserve water, and therefore are highly unlikely
to have a cistern.
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM 7995 (January 2015) released

[Michał Brzozowski]

Oddly enough, there is no info on the JOSM start page. I thought this
info gets updated automatically.
I did clear the cache, btw.

Michał

On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Martin Vonwald  wrote:
> Spreading the word. Thanks to the devs.
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Dirk Stöcker 
> Date: 2015-02-01 13:40 GMT+01:00
> Subject: [josm-dev] JOSM 7995 (January 2015) released
> To: josm-...@openstreetmap.org
>
>
> Hello,
>
> the new JOSM tested version for last month is out. Feel free to spread the
> word :-)
>
> Ciao
>
>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] RFD Camp ground Kitchens and their fittings

[Paul Johnson]

On Feb 1, 2015 2:49 AM, "Dave Swarthout"  wrote:
>
> There is much that needs to be done to bring OSM up to speed regarding
camping facilities IMO. We have only a very few tags tourism=camp_site,
tourism=caravan_site, and in a stretch, leisure=summer camp to describe the
myriad of facilities out there.

Another one: caravan sites.  There's not any way to cleanly distinguish one
at a state park that, save for the campground host, doesn't allow long term
stays, to ones that allow permanent accommodation and rent trailers (such
as the one I live in), to ones that are exclusively long term only (think
like as seen in the Canadian TV series The Trailer Park Boys).
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM 7995 (January 2015) released

[AYTOUN RALPH]

I have just started up JOSM and, while it did upload 7995 and ask me to
update my plug-ins the last entry on the start page is still ... 2014-12-29
(7906)

On 1 February 2015 at 15:45, Michał Brzozowski  wrote:

> Oddly enough, there is no info on the JOSM start page. I thought this
> info gets updated automatically.
> I did clear the cache, btw.
>
> Michał
>
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Martin Vonwald 
> wrote:
> > Spreading the word. Thanks to the devs.
> >
> > -- Forwarded message --
> > From: Dirk Stöcker 
> > Date: 2015-02-01 13:40 GMT+01:00
> > Subject: [josm-dev] JOSM 7995 (January 2015) released
> > To: josm-...@openstreetmap.org
> >
> >
> > Hello,
> >
> > the new JOSM tested version for last month is out. Feel free to spread
> the
> > word :-)
> >
> > Ciao
> >
> >
> > ___
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> >
>
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Re: [Tagging] JOSM 7995 (January 2015) released

[André Pirard]

On 2015-02-01 16:45, Michał Brzozowski wrote :
> Oddly enough, there is no info on the JOSM start page. I thought this
> info gets updated automatically.
> I did clear the cache, btw.
It's a plain Web page https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/StartupPage
and you should try to find why you don't see it.  OK here.
Funny enough, it was missing here right after a Java upgrade.
but it was only Murphy on duty, network timeouts.

BTW, Under Download: Ubuntu repository
,
I have added a note showing where older versions are kept on my request.

Пока,
Cheers

André.




>
> Michał
>
> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 2:04 PM, Martin Vonwald  wrote:
>> Spreading the word. Thanks to the devs.
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Dirk Stöcker 
>> Date: 2015-02-01 13:40 GMT+01:00
>> Subject: [josm-dev] JOSM 7995 (January 2015) released
>> To: josm-...@openstreetmap.org
>>
>>
>> Hello,
>>
>> the new JOSM tested version for last month is out. Feel free to spread the
>> word :-)
>>
>> Ciao
>>

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Voting system- time for reform?

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> +1 "Nobody votes because it's a borderline pointless endeavor."
>
> I joined this group to effect changes in tagging things of interest to me.
> But the discussions inevitably go round and round with nary a thing getting
> resolved. If someone has what seems like a good idea there is always
> someone else who takes issue with it.
>

The mailing lists and just going out and tagging seem to do more good than
calling convoluted proposals and voting sessions, so there's that.  For
best results, get a working model going first.  It's not like the database
is going to kick out esoterickey=unknownvalue...

Frankly, getting anything done is just too time consuming. I realize
> getting consensus on a topic is a difficult goal but I decided to just
> avoid using any controversial tags. There's enough basic mapping needed
> where I live to keep me plenty busy.
>

This.  Also glad Mapillary is a thing; I'm starting to try to use this to
avoid having to rely so heavily on memory and searching geolocations on
photos I've taken and hoping it happened to capture what I need...
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Voting system- time for reform?

[Paul Johnson]

On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 10:44 AM, Bryce Nesbitt 
wrote:

> And it seems for the most part, the tags with the most staying power seem
>> to be ones that were natural fits, and *then* were documented *how
>> they're actually used* in the wiki retroactively.
>>
>
> A mostly +1 on that.
>
> The *problem* tags however are the ones with murky meaning, that can
> never be sorted out later without a field survey that will never happen.
>

Oh FFS...I'm pretty sure I've said it before, but I'll say it again:  If
you can cover my costs, I'll be happy to ground truth anyplace I can
legally go with a US passport (which, as of this writing, seems to be
everywhere but Cuba, Canada and North Korea) and figure it out.  Honestly
I'd rather be a cartographer for a living anyway...
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Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:02 AM, Dave F.  wrote:

> Hi
>
> A shop that solely sells electronic cigarettes has been added locally. I
> guess this type of product will be on the increase so I think it's best to
> clarify unified tag, if there's ever been such a thing in OSM :-) Checking
> Tag-info it's 8/6 in favour of electronic_cigarettes over e-cigarettes.
>
> To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used, but I thought it
> best to discuss first. I don't smoke, are all these power based?
>

As far as I am aware, yes, all e-cigarettes contain batteries.
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Re: [Tagging] Motorroad does not apply to all lanes

[Paul Johnson]

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 8:36 PM, 715371  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have a very, very special case here:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/318383959
>
> There is a road with four lanes, but not all of them seem to be
> motorroad. There is a sign which suggests that. I do not like to have a
> separate way there, so I used the following tagging.
>
> motorroad:lanes=yes|yes|yes|no
>
> What do you think? Better ideas?
>

Is this even a motorroad?  Do we have Mapillary for this segment that has
the signage that would lead one to believe this is a motorroad?  Granted,
I'm not horribly acute on EU road issues (beyond what's covered in European
Truck Simulator 2), but just looking at the aerials, this looks like some
kind of primary or secondary route.  Also granted, my knowledge of these is
limited to Oregon, Washington, California and Pennsylvania for the most
part.  However, this looks like something that would be open to
nonmotorized modes.
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Re: [Tagging] Motorroad does not apply to all lanes

[Paul Johnson]

On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> *I looked carefully at the situation of that road bridge in Bremen, and to
> me it looks clear that the stretch on the bridge cannot legally be a
> motorroad. When you enter from the west on the on-ramp I bet you do not
> find any sign telling you that you are entering a motorraod. The motorroad
> starts again at the next exit, immediately after the bridge where non-motor
> vehicle have to exit*. It is only for practical reasons that
> non-motor-vehicles will stay on the right hand lane only. So the correct
> mapping is that yo remove put motorroad=no on the short stretch on the
> bridge.
> This also has the advantage that the average routing algorithm will route
> your horse-drawn calach correctly over the bridge.
>

You joke, but this is important to know before hailing an Amish taxi.
Which...actually is a thing.
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Re: [Tagging] Electronic or 'e' cigarettes?

[Tac Tacelosky]

Another legitimate terms for these shops is a "vape shop", and the practice
of using any sort of electronic cigarette is now referred to as "vaping".
This is a better term than "smoking", as the product emits vapors, not
smoke.

We are enthusiastic about seeing this term standardized, as many
jurisdictions do not license or regulate vape shops in the same way they do
places that sell cigarettes (and thus "e-cigarette" is a confusing term).
Our research is often about tobacco shops, and vape shops, because they're
not licensed, introduce a new wrinkle.

Tac


On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 12:55 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> On Thu, Jan 22, 2015 at 8:02 AM, Dave F.  wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> A shop that solely sells electronic cigarettes has been added locally. I
>> guess this type of product will be on the increase so I think it's best to
>> clarify unified tag, if there's ever been such a thing in OSM :-) Checking
>> Tag-info it's 8/6 in favour of electronic_cigarettes over e-cigarettes.
>>
>> To me, electronic_cigarettes is clearer & should be used, but I thought
>> it best to discuss first. I don't smoke, are all these power based?
>>
>
> As far as I am aware, yes, all e-cigarettes contain batteries.
>
>
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[Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[David Bannon]

Subject Was - RFD Camp ground Kitchens and their fittings

On Sun, 2015-02-01 at 09:47 -0600, Paul Johnson wrote:
> 
> Another one: caravan sites.  There's not any way to cleanly
> distinguish one at a state park that, save for the campground host,
> doesn't allow long term stays, to ones that allow permanent
> accommodation and rent trailers (such as the one I live in), to ones
> that are exclusively long term only .

Yes Paul, agree.  Lets look at a small set of additional tags to add to
tourism=camp_site ?   How about (with typical data to start the
disussion)-

max_stay=2 (and define it as days)
min_stay=2 (again, days)
shade=yes
defined_sites=yes

They sound easy, now how to define the 'type' of campground. You mention
State Park and commercial, I'd add 'free', common term in Oz and means
more than no monetary charge. I reckon we could spend some time getting
agreement on that list. Warin's advice was to avoid a big package.
Hmm

I'd also like to add mention of 

amenity=toilets
fee=yes/no

To the camp_site page, they are already defined elsewhere but are needed
here. Again, non-controversial ? 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site 
attempted this some years ago but it appears to have grown too big and it run 
out of steam.

David


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Re: [Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[Tod Fitch]

On Feb 1, 2015, at 2:50 PM, David Bannon wrote:

> 
> Subject Was - RFD Camp ground Kitchens and their fittings
> 
> On Sun, 2015-02-01 at 09:47 -0600, Paul Johnson wrote:
>> 
>> Another one: caravan sites.  There's not any way to cleanly
>> distinguish one at a state park that, save for the campground host,
>> doesn't allow long term stays, to ones that allow permanent
>> accommodation and rent trailers (such as the one I live in), to ones
>> that are exclusively long term only .
> 
> Yes Paul, agree.  Lets look at a small set of additional tags to add to
> tourism=camp_site ?   How about (with typical data to start the
> disussion)-
> 
> max_stay=2 (and define it as days)
> min_stay=2 (again, days)
> shade=yes
> defined_sites=yes
> 
> They sound easy, now how to define the 'type' of campground. You mention
> State Park and commercial, I'd add 'free', common term in Oz and means
> more than no monetary charge. I reckon we could spend some time getting
> agreement on that list. Warin's advice was to avoid a big package.
> Hmm
> 
> I'd also like to add mention of 
> 
> amenity=toilets
> fee=yes/no
> 
> To the camp_site page, they are already defined elsewhere but are needed
> here. Again, non-controversial ? 
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site 
> attempted this some years ago but it appears to have grown too big and it run 
> out of steam.
> 
> David
> 

I would like to have some of the items on Extend_camp_site page brought onto 
the main camp_site page. Specifically the site/pitch specific tags at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site#Tagging_of_individual_pitches

While they are not widely used, I see a fairly big geographical distribution 
which implies that they might be understood and universal enough to warrant 
better mention.

And, of course, I used them myself when mapping a couple of U.S. Forest Service 
campgrounds. :)

-Tod


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Re: [Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[Dave Swarthout]

The
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site
is quite a comprehensive proposal. One small thing I noticed in that one is
that waterway=water_point should be changed to amenity=water_point, to be
consistent with current OSM usage.

I guess the only issue I have with the what Tod's proposing is the use of
the British term "pitch" to describe an individual site. It's confusing
because the term is already used to describe large playing fields, as in
soccer and baseball. To use it here to describe an individual camp_site in
an area with many other sites is a bit counterintuitive to me.  I would
prefer tourism=campground or leisure=campground for the whole camping area
and then campground=camp_site for individual areas it contains. But that's
my American-centric view; I can live with the set of tags for individual
pitches if that's what most people want.

On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 6:22 AM, Tod Fitch  wrote:

>
> On Feb 1, 2015, at 2:50 PM, David Bannon wrote:
>
> >
> > Subject Was - RFD Camp ground Kitchens and their fittings
> >
> > On Sun, 2015-02-01 at 09:47 -0600, Paul Johnson wrote:
> >>
> >> Another one: caravan sites.  There's not any way to cleanly
> >> distinguish one at a state park that, save for the campground host,
> >> doesn't allow long term stays, to ones that allow permanent
> >> accommodation and rent trailers (such as the one I live in), to ones
> >> that are exclusively long term only .
> >
> > Yes Paul, agree.  Lets look at a small set of additional tags to add to
> > tourism=camp_site ?   How about (with typical data to start the
> > disussion)-
> >
> > max_stay=2 (and define it as days)
> > min_stay=2 (again, days)
> > shade=yes
> > defined_sites=yes
> >
> > They sound easy, now how to define the 'type' of campground. You mention
> > State Park and commercial, I'd add 'free', common term in Oz and means
> > more than no monetary charge. I reckon we could spend some time getting
> > agreement on that list. Warin's advice was to avoid a big package.
> > Hmm
> >
> > I'd also like to add mention of
> >
> > amenity=toilets
> > fee=yes/no
> >
> > To the camp_site page, they are already defined elsewhere but are needed
> > here. Again, non-controversial ?
> >
> >
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site
> attempted this some years ago but it appears to have grown too big and it
> run out of steam.
> >
> > David
> >
>
> I would like to have some of the items on Extend_camp_site page brought
> onto the main camp_site page. Specifically the site/pitch specific tags at
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site#Tagging_of_individual_pitches
>
> While they are not widely used, I see a fairly big geographical
> distribution which implies that they might be understood and universal
> enough to warrant better mention.
>
> And, of course, I used them myself when mapping a couple of U.S. Forest
> Service campgrounds. :)
>
> -Tod
>
>
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>



-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[Tod Fitch]

On Feb 1, 2015, at 4:25 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:

> The  
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site  
> is quite a comprehensive proposal. One small thing I noticed in that one is 
> that waterway=water_point should be changed to amenity=water_point, to be 
> consistent with current OSM usage.
> 
> I guess the only issue I have with the what Tod's proposing is the use of the 
> British term "pitch" to describe an individual site. It's confusing because 
> the term is already used to describe large playing fields, as in soccer and 
> baseball. To use it here to describe an individual camp_site in an area with 
> many other sites is a bit counterintuitive to me.  I would prefer 
> tourism=campground or leisure=campground for the whole camping area and then 
> campground=camp_site for individual areas it contains. But that's my 
> American-centric view; I can live with the set of tags for individual pitches 
> if that's what most people want.
> 

IIRC, when those tags went in the discussion on the list had 
campground=camp_site in the original and the suggestion was to change to the 
more British centric "pitch". :)

Tod

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Re: [Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[David Bannon]

On Sun, 2015-02-01 at 15:22 -0800, Tod Fitch wrote:
>.
> I would like to have some of the items on Extend_camp_site page brought onto 
> the main camp_site page. Specifically the site/pitch specific tags at 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site#Tagging_of_individual_pitches
> 
> While they are not widely used, I see a fairly big geographical distribution 
> which implies that they might be understood and universal enough to warrant 
> better mention.
> 
> And, of course, I used them myself when mapping a couple of U.S. Forest 
> Service campgrounds. :)

Tod, I agree with the idea but mindful of Warin's advice, more things on
the page, less chance of getting it approved. Incidently, AU we'd say
'site', the overall area would be a campground (but too late, its
already called camp_site).

I don't know if I, personally, would ever bother to map a campground
down to individual sites (or pitches as you would say). But campground
owners sure would and it would be useful indeed. I'd vote for them.

Maybe we should try and do parallel development of these things, bring
up a proposal for -

1. Overall campground, titled "additions to tourism=camp_site"

2. Site specific additions, "pitch specific additions to
tourism=camp_site"

3. Warin's kitchen specific ones.

We could prepare and discuss as a set but keep voting separate so we
don't get a few negative votes killing whole thing ? 

David


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Re: [Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[Warin]

On 2/02/2015 10:22 AM, Tod Fitch wrote:

On Feb 1, 2015, at 2:50 PM, David Bannon wrote:


Subject Was - RFD Camp ground Kitchens and their fittings

On Sun, 2015-02-01 at 09:47 -0600, Paul Johnson wrote:

Another one: caravan sites.  There's not any way to cleanly
distinguish one at a state park that, save for the campground host,
doesn't allow long term stays, to ones that allow permanent
accommodation and rent trailers (such as the one I live in), to ones
that are exclusively long term only .

Yes Paul, agree.  Lets look at a small set of additional tags to add to
tourism=camp_site ?   How about (with typical data to start the
disussion)-

max_stay=2 (and define it as days)
min_stay=2 (again, days)
shade=yes
defined_sites=yes

They sound easy, now how to define the 'type' of campground. You mention
State Park and commercial, I'd add 'free', common term in Oz and means
more than no monetary charge. I reckon we could spend some time getting
agreement on that list. Warin's advice was to avoid a big package.
Hmm

I'd also like to add mention of

amenity=toilets
fee=yes/no

To the camp_site page, they are already defined elsewhere but are needed
here. Again, non-controversial ?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site 
attempted this some years ago but it appears to have grown too big and it run 
out of steam.

David


I would like to have some of the items on Extend_camp_site page brought onto 
the main camp_site page. Specifically the site/pitch specific tags at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site#Tagging_of_individual_pitches

While they are not widely used, I see a fairly big geographical distribution 
which implies that they might be understood and universal enough to warrant 
better mention.

And, of course, I used them myself when mapping a couple of U.S. Forest Service 
campgrounds. :)

-Tod



I've edited the wiki page on camp sites 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site  to include 
links to the tags for fee, shower, laundry, firepit and water tap. Tod 
you could do the same for your desired additional tags? Any complaints 
to me.. or just edit the page yourself?


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Re: [Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[Warin]

On 2/02/2015 11:43 AM, David Bannon wrote:

On Sun, 2015-02-01 at 15:22 -0800, Tod Fitch wrote:

.
I would like to have some of the items on Extend_camp_site page brought onto 
the main camp_site page. Specifically the site/pitch specific tags at 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site#Tagging_of_individual_pitches

While they are not widely used, I see a fairly big geographical distribution 
which implies that they might be understood and universal enough to warrant 
better mention.

And, of course, I used them myself when mapping a couple of U.S. Forest Service 
campgrounds. :)

Tod, I agree with the idea but mindful of Warin's advice, more things on
the page, less chance of getting it approved. Incidently, AU we'd say
'site', the overall area would be a campground (but too late, its
already called camp_site).


Some pages are an over view .. well that is what it appears to be for 
me. They are good things to see.

Being in AU too .. I don't mind pitch.


I don't know if I, personally, would ever bother to map a campground
down to individual sites (or pitches as you would say).
Powered sites (ones with electrical power .. and possibly water and 
possibly waste water connections) would be high on the probability of 
being mapped. And that then falls in line with mapping the connections.

Maybe we should try and do parallel development of these things, bring
up a proposal for -

1. Overall campground, titled "additions to tourism=camp_site"

2. Site specific additions, "pitch specific additions to
tourism=camp_site"

3. Warin's kitchen specific ones.

We could prepare and discuss as a set but keep voting separate so we
don't get a few negative votes killing whole thing ?

That is may way of getting things through, with the least confusion and 
I think the easiest way to discuss individual features and make keys out 
of them.


I've forgotten to add things to that campsite page .. payment options .. 
waste water point/s ..and probably otherthings too. And they may be 
better organised as 'Additional tags'?


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Re: [Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[David Bannon]

On Mon, 2015-02-02 at 12:24 +1100, Warin wrote:
> I've edited the wiki page on camp sites 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site  to include 
> links to the tags for fee, shower, laundry, firepit and water tap. 

OK, if thats how its done, I have added toilets.  

But seems you are restructuring things as I do so.  Not sure I like the
separate table you just added, it needs a second column describing when
a mapper should consider using the listed tag, too slow to browse off to
each page when looking up something.

For example, water. At present you have drinking_water= in the first
table, for consistency, it probably should be in the second table and
listed with amenity=water_point and amenity=drinking_water, possibly
amenity=watering_place and man_made=water_tap!  Clearly need an
explanation of why all these in a camping context

So, if you have no objections, I'll add a second column ...

David


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Re: [Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[Warin]

On 2/02/2015 2:33 PM, David Bannon wrote:

On Mon, 2015-02-02 at 12:24 +1100, Warin wrote:

I've edited the wiki page on camp sites
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site  to include
links to the tags for fee, shower, laundry, firepit and water tap.

OK, if thats how its done, I have added toilets.

But seems you are restructuring things as I do so.  Not sure I like the
separate table you just added, it needs a second column describing when
a mapper should consider using the listed tag, too slow to browse off to
each page when looking up something.


I think the second table is better as it contains things that 
should/could be separate nodes/areas, where as the first table is for 
sub tags of the key 'campsite'.It also makes it easier for other s to 
clearly see the major addition.


For example, water. At present you have drinking_water= in the first
table, for consistency, it probably should be in the second table and
listed with amenity=water_point and amenity=drinking_water, possibly
amenity=watering_place and man_made=water_tap!  Clearly need an
explanation of why all these in a camping context

So, if you have no objections, I'll add a second column ...


Feel free! I was too lazy to add the second column! At least at this 
stage. Also needs electrical power places, sewage dump points .. more as 
I think of them .. I'm making a list for later look up. And my 'should 
be mapped' needs to change to 'could be mapped' on the page .. less 
assertive, more encouragement?
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Re: [Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[Warin]

On 2/02/2015 2:33 PM, David Bannon wrote:

On Mon, 2015-02-02 at 12:24 +1100, Warin wrote:

I've edited the wiki page on camp sites
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dcamp_site  to include
links to the tags for fee, shower, laundry, firepit and water tap.

OK, if thats how its done, I have added toilets.


Right.

I've added power point/supply.

Not found an OSM sewer dump point key.

Reordered the water things into a ?better? order and added yet more words.

Added and changed the tone of the introduction to this. Less 
dictatorship, more 'please'?


See what you think of it in general.I don't think there is any harm done.


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Re: [Tagging] Draft Additions to camp_site

[Tod Fitch]

Sorry for the quote all, but the email app on this cell phone doesn't make it 
easy to edit quoted text.

Regarding detail mapping of individual sites/pitches, the reason I mapped the 
camp sites in the campgrounds on a local mountain was for a Forest Service 
volunteer group. The local medical fire/ambulance agency saw it and asked for a 
copy. Changing my Mapnik style sheets around I was able to make a  large scale 
printed map with the specific details they wanted. They believe it will save 
time in responding to medical incidents.

When I get back in town and to a real computer I'll make the wiki edits 
suggested by another response on this thread.

Tod




On February 1, 2015 4:43:30 PM PST, David Bannon  
wrote:
>On Sun, 2015-02-01 at 15:22 -0800, Tod Fitch wrote:
>>.
>> I would like to have some of the items on Extend_camp_site page
>brought onto the main camp_site page. Specifically the site/pitch
>specific tags at
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Extend_camp_site#Tagging_of_individual_pitches
>> 
>> While they are not widely used, I see a fairly big geographical
>distribution which implies that they might be understood and universal
>enough to warrant better mention.
>> 
>> And, of course, I used them myself when mapping a couple of U.S.
>Forest Service campgrounds. :)
>
>Tod, I agree with the idea but mindful of Warin's advice, more things
>on
>the page, less chance of getting it approved. Incidently, AU we'd say
>'site', the overall area would be a campground (but too late, its
>already called camp_site).
>
>I don't know if I, personally, would ever bother to map a campground
>down to individual sites (or pitches as you would say). But campground
>owners sure would and it would be useful indeed. I'd vote for them.
>
>Maybe we should try and do parallel development of these things, bring
>up a proposal for -
>
>1. Overall campground, titled "additions to tourism=camp_site"
>
>2. Site specific additions, "pitch specific additions to
>tourism=camp_site"
>
>3. Warin's kitchen specific ones.
>
>We could prepare and discuss as a set but keep voting separate so we
>don't get a few negative votes killing whole thing ? 
>
>David
>
>
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