Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=fitness_centre

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 11:25 AM, Clifford Snow 
wrote:

> The only other tag that would work is amenity=fitness_centre. Taginfo
> would indicate that amenity is the most used.
>
> Taginfo results
>
> leisure=fitness_centre (and other spelling variations) = 452
> (leisure=fitness_centre is used 440 times.)
> amenity=fitness_centre (and other spelling variations) = 687
> (amenity=fitness_center is used 507 times.)
>

Well, the usage of amenity=fitness_centre over leisure=fitness_centre is
much too small that I think we can go with either option.

I myself prefer leisure=fitness_centre because amenity=* is overloaded and
I agree with the sentiment that fitness is more of a leisure thing that
people do when they have free time.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=fitness_centre

[Friedrich Volkmann]

On 29.12.2014 04:51, Bryan Housel wrote:
> Yes, `amenity` please.  A gym is something people want to know about when 
> traveling, just as much as other tourist stuff, food, lodging, etc.

Then you should advocate tourism=fitness_centre.

I prefer the leisure key, because fitness is something you do in your
leisure time.

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Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=fitness_centre

[Friedrich Volkmann]

On 29.12.2014 04:25, Clifford Snow wrote:
> Sport isn't a physical tag, where a baseball field is. I think the same
> applies to fitness centers. You can survey a fitness center. Not a sport. As
> a kid, I played baseball in a vacant lot.

I agree that sport=* cannot be used on its own. It is an attribute. It
should be combined with a more physical tag (amenity=*, leisure=*).

leisure=pitch can be used as the main tag.
leisure=sports_centre can be used as a main tag.
leisure=fitness_station too.

We can use these tags for most fitness venues, except for parts of
containing sports centres. One example is the aforementioned fitness centre
in a rowing club.

While leisure=fitness_centre is a specific solution for fitness rooms, it
won't work for squash rooms, tennis halls, soccer halls etc. Therefore, we
might want to look for some more generic way to tag parts of sports centres.

As it is some kind of indoor mapping, room=* comes to mind. But what if a
whole complex of rooms is dedicated to one sport?

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Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=fitness_centre

[Janko Mihelić]

2014-12-28 23:35 GMT+01:00 Andreas Goss :

>
> fitness_centre:access=membership, fitness_centre:access=club? private?
> Or have something like fitness_centre=yes? (Not sure as we already have
> sport=*)
>

Why complicate things? I think a simple access=private (or maybe
access=membership) should be enough.
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Re: [Tagging] GPX dates / Date of survey

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I'd also like a "last field checked" standard tag...
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[Tagging] lanes=-1 especially in Canada

[Bryce Nesbitt]

I rolled the map-roulette wheel, and found a series of highways in Canada
marked with "lanes=-1", all part of a CANVEC import.

I see 17,943 uses of this value: it's less popular than 5 lanes but more
popular than 6.
What does it mean, if anything?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap (Kotya Karapetyan)

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 4:22 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:
>
> not sure if "purity" is a good choice. Completely "pure" water is not
> potable (distilled water), you'd die if you drank too much (OK, you'll also
> die when drinking too much "normal" water [1], but the second "too much" is
> much more than the first).
>

"purity" is a judgement call.
Generally those don't go well in OSM.

How about tags for signage, e.g. "It's marked as potable", "it's marked as
untested", "it's marked as non-potable".
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=fitness_centre

[Bryan Housel]

What’s leisure time?
It’s 5:30am here and I’m about to head to the gym, like I do most days.


> On Dec 29, 2014, at 3:29 AM, Friedrich Volkmann  wrote:
> 
> On 29.12.2014 04:51, Bryan Housel wrote:
>> Yes, `amenity` please.  A gym is something people want to know about when 
>> traveling, just as much as other tourist stuff, food, lodging, etc.
> 
> Then you should advocate tourism=fitness_centre.
> 
> I prefer the leisure key, because fitness is something you do in your
> leisure time.
> 
> -- 
> Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
> Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria
> 
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Re: [Tagging] lanes=-1 especially in Canada

[Janko Mihelić]

Maybe CANVEC uses it instead of unknown?

2014-12-29 11:16 GMT+01:00 Bryce Nesbitt :

> I rolled the map-roulette wheel, and found a series of highways in Canada
> marked with "lanes=-1", all part of a CANVEC import.
>
> I see 17,943 uses of this value: it's less popular than 5 lanes but more
> popular than 6.
> What does it mean, if anything?
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap

[Warin]

On 29/12/2014 9:33 PM, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:

Message: 8
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 02:18:28 -0800
From: Bryce Nesbitt
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap (Kotya
Karapetyan)
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 4:22 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
wrote:

>
>not sure if "purity" is a good choice. Completely "pure" water is not
>potable (distilled water), you'd die if you drank too much (OK, you'll also
>die when drinking too much "normal" water [1], but the second "too much" is
>much more than the first).
>

"purity" is a judgement call.
Generally those don't go well in OSM.

How about tags for signage, e.g. "It's marked as potable", "it's marked as
untested", "it's marked as non-potable".
-- next part --
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--


I suggest the tag for taps go ahead for voting. But remove all the 
purity/potable things .. just vote on the tap. I don't see any problem 
there.


The sub tag for potable can then be raised as a separate wiki entry .. 
and discussion on 'portable' continued. Such as when the tap carries no 
marking; I'd think this will be country sepcific .. some countries will 
have unmarked taps as potable, other countries as non-potable, and 
others as 'unknown'. Note that this sub tag can be applied to things 
other than taps... springs, fountains ...


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Re: [Tagging] oneway=no spams

[John Willis]

On Dec 29, 2014, at 3:20 AM, Andy Street  wrote:

>> I notice a quicky increasing number of oneway=no tags on roads,
>> probably due to editors offering some flashy list box for the oneway
>> key.

If you mistakenly check the "one way" box on a road preset in iD, unchecking 
the box chafes the value to no, rather than "assumed to be no" (which is the 
default absence of the tag).  Clicking the box again resets it to "assumed to 
be no" , but soce we already know the route isn't one way, 
I bet a lot of people, myself included, simply uncheck the box (making it no) 
rather than the trash can to delete the tag. I bet that is where a lot of them 
are coming from.

I don't think people are intentionally tagging so many oneway=no, tags - it's 
just misunderstanding the presets. Maybe there are some situations where 
oneway=no is important (odd motorway situations), but I bet a ton of them are 
checkbox spam from iD. 

Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Accuracy of survey

[Kotya Karapetyan]

Happy holidays and 2015 everyone!

> what is needed here is some tag, saying "don't touch these
> coordinates, they've been surveyed with high(est) accuracy".

I second this idea.

Just recently I discovered that something in this direction already exists:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_France/Rep%C3%A8res_G%C3%A9od%C3%A9siques#Permanence_des_rep.C3.A8res
Example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=23/43.42272/6.76665
However it seems to be France-specific. I don't know if a similar thing
exists e.g. for Germany.

Since such reference points are quite common, I would support the idea of
creating a special tag for them, requiring that they are not moved. However
we need a clear consensus on how we define the "sufficient" accuracy and
how the data for such points will be updated.

I disagree with the point of view that an accuracy sufficient for consumer
GPS devices is sufficient for OSM and therefore there is no problem here.
Nobody ever declared that OSM is for smartphone users. We are trying to map
the world, and accuracy should be of primary interest for this project.

Cheers,
Kotya

On Thu, Dec 25, 2014 at 7:16 PM, Rainer Fügenstein  wrote:

>
> TP> It was not clear if the OP indeed wants to map pipelines,
> TP> or was just quoting the pipeline expert for his opinion about
> TP> surveying methods.
> the latter. I'm referring to all nodes, not just pipelines & marker.
> Just used the conversation I had some time ago as an example.
>
> W> Terms !!
> W> In Metrology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrology) the words
> W> accuracy, error, etc have specific meaning ..
>
> please forgive my ignorance - let the experts decide on a proper term
> to be eventually used as tag. "dilution" comes to mind, but that's GPS
> specific, if I'm not mistaken.
>
> FV> Even if you collect plenty of GPS traces with no systematic error,
> these
> FV> still cannot beat a theodolite triangulation.
>
> when specifying "accuracy", the source of the coordinates shouldn't
> matter. It could be GPS, DGPS, theodolite triangulation, a file
> provided by officials or companies ...
>
> FV> I used estimated_accuracy=* or gps_accuracy=* a couple of times,
> IMHO, that's the way to go. would recommend against gps_*, see above.
> also, there should be a distinction between estimated and actual
> accuracy.
>
> FV> but I doubt
> FV> that it prevents other mappers from moving or even deleting them. Some
> use
> FV> editors like Potlatch, so they are not aware of tags. Some do
> thousands of
> FV> edits, all of which are validator based "corrections". They do not ask
> nor
> FV> think nor look at tags, except at those reported by the validator.
>
> software evolves; if such a tag is considered useful and widely used,
> it may eventually be supported by the developers. of course, there'll
> always be the black sheep ...
>
> FV> Also, there is no clear line between high and low precision data.
> Should an
> FV> editor warn when the precision is better than 1m, but ignore a
> precision of
> FV> 2m? This all depends on the precision of the new data, which the
> editor does
> FV> not know.
>
> for starters, I'd begin with a general warning if the precision of the
> existing node is less or equal than 2m (thats better than what the
> average consumer receiver can achieve). to draw a line between high
> and low precision, this article [1] may be helpful.
>
> some GPS receivers show the current precision in meters; GPX files
> contain HDOP/VDOP/PDOP if provided by the receiver. In theory and if
> provided, when a GPX file is used as source for nodes, precision could
> be derived from this information (by whatever means).
>
> FV> There are no GPS traces for pipeline markes.
> actually, there are ;-) I just didn't upload mine. but apart from
> that, pipeline mapping seems to be a few-(wo)men show, therefore it's
> more likely that pipeline operators may release their (high precision)
> data [2] before there are enough GPS traces to significantly increase
> precision via interpolation.
>
> cu
>
> [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_Positioning_System
> (section "Augmentation" f.)
>
> [2]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/PipelineExtension#status_update.2F1
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] oneway=no spams

[Nelson A. de Oliveira]

On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 9:36 AM, John Willis  wrote:
> I bet a lot of people, myself included, simply uncheck the box (making it no) 
> rather than the trash can to delete the tag. I bet that is where a lot of 
> them are coming from.

This is what happened here
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2111 and here
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/pull/2117

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Re: [Tagging] Accuracy of survey

[Tom Pfeifer]

Kotya Karapetyan wrote on 2014-12-29 15:27:

Just recently I discovered that something in this direction already exists: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_France/Rep%C3%A8res_G%C3%A9od%C3%A9siques#Permanence_des_rep.C3.A8res
Example: https://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=23/43.42272/6.76665


Better point directly to the object you refer to:
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/670599510


However it seems to be France-specific. I don't know if a similar thing exists 
e.g. for Germany.
Since such reference points are quite common, I would support the idea of 
creating a special tag for them,


Yes geodetic reference points exist, and as you see 285000 are already mapped 
in OSM.
And they have a tag already, man_made=survey_point
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:man_made%3Dsurvey_point

> requiring that they are not moved.

But that is the same for anything in OSM. Reference points should not be moved
accidentally (there might be reasons to move them, so you cannot exclude that 
per se),
motorways should not be deleted accidentally. It is a general problem that OSM 
data
are quite vulnerable, and a single tag on a particular object will not solve 
this.

As for reference points, what I find useful to have a human-readable copy of the
lat/lon values in a tag, so they can be inspected more easily in case of a 
movement
or recreation (i.e. wiped history).


I disagree with the point of view that an accuracy sufficient for consumer GPS 
devices

> is sufficient for OSM and therefore there is no problem here.

Fine, however nobody had expressed this point of view.
You might have misread some postings.

> Nobody ever declared that OSM is for smartphone users.

Oh, OSM _is_ for smartphone users, and any other user of course ;-)


We are trying to map the world, and accuracy should
be of primary interest for this project.


Sure.
Tom



Cheers,
Kotya



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=fitness_centre

[Andreas Goss]

>fitness_centre:access=__membership, fitness_centre:access=club? private?
>Or have something like fitness_centre=yes? (Not sure as we already
>have sport=*)

Why complicate things? I think a simple access=private (or maybe
access=membership) should be enough.


Thought about that, too. Problem I see is that membership could just as 
much be interpreted as membership in a sports club.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - leisure=fitness_centre

[Andreas Goss]

What’s leisure time?
It’s 5:30am here and I’m about to head to the gym, like I do most days.


"The leisure tag is for places people go in their spare time."

So I'd say that's exactly what you are doing. You are not at work or on 
holidays. You could just as much edit OpenStreetMap or pursue any other 
hobby instead.

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[Tagging] 'Variety' in UK English?

[Guillaume Pratte]

Hello,

We are having a discussion on the wiki about the ‘varieté’ value for the 
theatre:genre tag values:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre#variet.C3.A9 


‘varieté’ does not seems English (shouldn’t it be ‘variety’?), and it’s not 
French either (it should be ‘variété’).

I suppose in the US they would write ‘variety’. How is it spelled in the UK?

What is the value we should use for OpenStreetMap?

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Re: [Tagging] 'Variety' in UK English?

[Steve Doerr]

On 29/12/2014 19:41, Guillaume Pratte wrote:
We are having a discussion on the wiki about the ‘varieté’ value for 
the theatre:genre tag values:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre#variet.C3.A9 



‘varieté’ does not seems English (shouldn’t it be ‘variety’?), and 
it’s not French either (it should be ‘variété’).


I suppose in the US they would write ‘variety’. How is it spelled in 
the UK?


The same: variety. My impression is that, in French, it is normally 
plural (e.g. théâtre de variétés), so if we wanted a French tag-value it 
would be variétés.


--
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Re: [Tagging] 'Variety' in UK English?

[Steve Doerr]

On 29/12/2014 20:36, Steve Doerr wrote:

On 29/12/2014 19:41, Guillaume Pratte wrote:
We are having a discussion on the wiki about the ‘varieté’ value for 
the theatre:genre tag values:


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre#variet.C3.A9 



‘varieté’ does not seems English (shouldn’t it be ‘variety’?), and 
it’s not French either (it should be ‘variété’).


I suppose in the US they would write ‘variety’. How is it spelled in 
the UK?


The same: variety. My impression is that, in French, it is normally 
plural (e.g. théâtre de variétés), so if we wanted a French tag-value 
it would be variétés


OK, the term varieté (and other genres) was introduced in the Wiki in 
February 2010 by a German user called BlackBike. It seems there is a 
German word Varieté, also spelt Varietee, translated by leo.org as 
'music hall' or 'vaudeville'. I'm not familiar with the subtleties of 
these different terms, but it's not impossible that there is a genre 
specific to the German-speaking world, subtly different from variety, 
vaudeville, music-hall, or French variétés, which therefore needs a 
tag-value of its own: theatre:genre=varieté.


--
Steve


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Re: [Tagging] 'Variety' in UK English?

[Florian Schäfer]

Am 29.12.2014 um 21:48 schrieb Steve Doerr:
> On 29/12/2014 20:36, Steve Doerr wrote:
>> On 29/12/2014 19:41, Guillaume Pratte wrote:
>>> We are having a discussion on the wiki about the ‘varieté’ value for
>>> the theatre:genre tag values:
>>>
>>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre#variet.C3.A9
>>> 
>>>
>>> ‘varieté’ does not seems English (shouldn’t it be ‘variety’?), and
>>> it’s not French either (it should be ‘variété’).
>>>
>>> I suppose in the US they would write ‘variety’. How is it spelled in
>>> the UK?
>>
>> The same: variety. My impression is that, in French, it is normally
>> plural (e.g. théâtre de variétés), so if we wanted a French tag-value
>> it would be variétés
>
> OK, the term varieté (and other genres) was introduced in the Wiki in
> February 2010 by a German user called BlackBike. It seems there is a
> German word Varieté, also spelt Varietee, translated by leo.org as
> 'music hall' or 'vaudeville'. I'm not familiar with the subtleties of
> these different terms, but it's not impossible that there is a genre
> specific to the German-speaking world, subtly different from variety,
> vaudeville, music-hall, or French variétés, which therefore needs a
> tag-value of its own: theatre:genre=varieté.
The German "Varieté" translates to "Music Hall" (BE) or "Vaudeville" (AE).


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Re: [Tagging] 'Variety' in UK English?

[Florian Schäfer]

Am 29.12.2014 um 21:57 schrieb Florian Schäfer:
> Am 29.12.2014 um 21:48 schrieb Steve Doerr:
>> On 29/12/2014 20:36, Steve Doerr wrote:
>>> On 29/12/2014 19:41, Guillaume Pratte wrote:
 We are having a discussion on the wiki about the ‘varieté’ value
 for the theatre:genre tag values:

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre#variet.C3.A9
 

 ‘varieté’ does not seems English (shouldn’t it be ‘variety’?), and
 it’s not French either (it should be ‘variété’).

 I suppose in the US they would write ‘variety’. How is it spelled
 in the UK?
>>>
>>> The same: variety. My impression is that, in French, it is normally
>>> plural (e.g. théâtre de variétés), so if we wanted a French
>>> tag-value it would be variétés
>>
>> OK, the term varieté (and other genres) was introduced in the Wiki in
>> February 2010 by a German user called BlackBike. It seems there is a
>> German word Varieté, also spelt Varietee, translated by leo.org as
>> 'music hall' or 'vaudeville'. I'm not familiar with the subtleties of
>> these different terms, but it's not impossible that there is a genre
>> specific to the German-speaking world, subtly different from variety,
>> vaudeville, music-hall, or French variétés, which therefore needs a
>> tag-value of its own: theatre:genre=varieté.
> The German "Varieté" translates to "Music Hall" (BE) or "Vaudeville"
> (AE).
Excuse me, I've read your message too fast and didn't realize you
already said what I've written.


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Re: [Tagging] 'Variety' in UK English?

[Tom Pfeifer]

Langenscheidt translates DE:varieté into "variety theatre, music hall, Am. 
vaudeville theatre".
Oxford defines 'variety' for both BE/AE as "a form of television or theater 
entertainment
consisting of a series of different types of acts, such as singing, dancing, and 
comedy"

All is exactly what was intended with the German "varieté" in the Wiki.
(Apparently in language, DE:varieté has been borrowed from FR:variétés, losing 
some
fine details when passing the border)

Thus I'd tune into the suggestion (here and on the talk page) to change it
to theatre:genre=variety in the wiki, talk to those who have tagged the 9 
occurrences and
inform the original proposer.

tom

Florian Schäfer wrote on 2014-12-29 21:59:

Am 29.12.2014 um 21:57 schrieb Florian Schäfer:

Am 29.12.2014 um 21:48 schrieb Steve Doerr:

On 29/12/2014 20:36, Steve Doerr wrote:

On 29/12/2014 19:41, Guillaume Pratte wrote:

We are having a discussion on the wiki about the ‘varieté’ value for the 
theatre:genre tag values:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre#variet.C3.A9 


‘varieté’ does not seems English (shouldn’t it be ‘variety’?), and it’s not 
French either (it should be ‘variété’).

I suppose in the US they would write ‘variety’. How is it spelled in the UK?


The same: variety. My impression is that, in French, it is normally plural 
(e.g. théâtre de variétés), so if we wanted a French tag-value it would be 
variétés


OK, the term varieté (and other genres) was introduced in the Wiki in February 
2010 by a German user called BlackBike. It seems there is a German word 
Varieté, also spelt Varietee, translated by leo.org as 'music hall' or 
'vaudeville'. I'm not familiar
with the subtleties of these different terms, but it's not impossible that 
there is a genre specific to the German-speaking world, subtly different from 
variety, vaudeville, music-hall, or French variétés, which therefore needs a 
tag-value of its own:
theatre:genre=varieté.

The German "Varieté" translates to "Music Hall" (BE) or "Vaudeville" (AE).

Excuse me, I've read your message too fast and didn't realize you already said 
what I've written.



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Re: [Tagging] 'Variety' in UK English?

[André Pirard]

On 2014-12-29 21:57, Florian Schäfer wrote :
> Am 29.12.2014 um 21:48 schrieb Steve Doerr:
>> On 29/12/2014 20:36, Steve Doerr wrote:
>>> On 29/12/2014 19:41, Guillaume Pratte wrote:
 We are having a discussion on the wiki about the ‘varieté’ value
 for the theatre:genre tag values:

 http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre#variet.C3.A9
 

 ‘varieté’ does not seems English (shouldn’t it be ‘variety’?), and
 it’s not French either (it should be ‘variété’).

 I suppose in the US they would write ‘variety’. How is it spelled
 in the UK?
>>>
>>> The same: variety. My impression is that, in French, it is normally
>>> plural (e.g. théâtre de variétés), so if we wanted a French
>>> tag-value it would be variétés
>>
>> OK, the term varieté (and other genres) was introduced in the Wiki in
>> February 2010 by a German user called BlackBike. It seems there is a
>> German word Varieté, also spelt Varietee, translated by leo.org as
>> 'music hall' or 'vaudeville'. I'm not familiar with the subtleties of
>> these different terms, but it's not impossible that there is a genre
>> specific to the German-speaking world, subtly different from variety,
>> vaudeville, music-hall, or French variétés, which therefore needs a
>> tag-value of its own: theatre:genre=varieté.
> The German "Varieté" translates to "Music Hall" (BE) or "Vaudeville" (AE).
And regarding the other BE (Belarus), the term is варьете театр
pronounced "variété théâtre" exactly like in be (lgium) but with a very
slight Russian accent ;-)

Ура,

Андрей.


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Re: [Tagging] Accuracy of survey

[Warin]

On 30/12/2014 6:41 AM, tagging-requ...@openstreetmap.org wrote:

Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 15:27:23 +0100
From: Kotya Karapetyan 
To: Rainer Fügenstein , "Tag discussion, strategy and
related tools" 
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Accuracy of survey
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"


Since such reference points are quite common, I would support the idea of
creating a special tag for them, requiring that they are not moved. However
we need a clear consensus on how we define the "sufficient" accuracy and
how the data for such points will be updated.
Ultimate 'accuracy'? You do realise that the tectonic plates are moving? 
So your reference points need to include a date so they can be corrected 
for the drift. You'll find that data is available for those survey 
reference points .. together with their precision. Do you want to update 
these points to maintain their 'accuracy'? How often?
Survey reference points are 'quite common' in built up areas ... but not 
in remote locations. And depending an the age and how precise the survey 
was will have some effect on their 'accuracy'. One surveor in Australia 
forget to allow for the temperature effect on this measurement chain 
 back when chains were used.


I disagree with the point of view that an accuracy sufficient for consumer
GPS devices is sufficient for OSM and therefore there is no problem here.
Nobody ever declared that OSM is for smartphone users. We are trying to map
the world, and accuracy should be of primary interest for this project.



Again the word 'accuracy'.

Context 1.
I have advised one mapper in their diary that most, if not all, users 
will be using their data entry with similar equipment to what they have 
.. so any 'inaccuracy' will also be present for the other users. Thus 
what they map should represent what is there and should be usable as a 
map .. considering that the GPS information may be very vague under the 
tree cover present and the local cliffs etc.


Context 2
I will be mapping a track that is covered in a few places  .. by an over 
hanging cliff. As such it is not visible by satellite .. nor will the 
GPS track be that 'accurate'. So I'll be mapping it from the available 
information that I have then - a few photos, my track and the satellite 
image. It will take me about a week to traverse the area. No shops etc.


I would rather have the less 'accurate' representation of what is there 
compared to a blank area. I've plotted one track that goes from one 
place to another (personal knowledge).. where it is not visible on the 
satellite view I've plotted it as a straight line.. I know it is not a 
straight line but it is the best I can do and conveys the information 
that the track is connected, and being straight in that hilly area also 
conveys that the information is a guide. I know there is a similar tack 
a bit north of this track .. but cannot reliably get the entry and exit 
points .. so have left that off as I view it as unreliable for use.  I 
have come across similar in other areas of the world .. but I found the 
satellite image had better information - so 'improved' the information.


--
OSM primary interest?
1) to be USEFULL.
 meaning to have information desired by the user
sufficient representation and detail  to be able to navigate to a 
desired place.


Many usefull maps have distortion - to include more details on 
particular objects or to simply emphasise to those objects.


OSM renders distort road widths according to their classification .. 
that is normal mapping for road navigation. If you wanted air navigation 
then the actual road width would be better to render, with runways 
having more emphasis.
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - cliff clarification

[Friedrich Volkmann]

On 02.09.2014 15:32, Friedrich Volkmann wrote:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/cliff_clarification
> 
> This is to refine/cleanup the definition of natural=cliff in the Wiki, in
> order to make that existing map feature usable for applications.

There's no more discussion going on, so I started voting.

-- 
Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

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[Tagging] question: best practices for micromapping ped areas and footpaths?

[johnw]

I'm micromapping some public areas, in this case train stations. two questions:

1)  there are large open concrete areas for pedestrians, but there are also 
covered walkways through them as well. 

http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=19/36.38380/139.07281

I mapped the open sections as highway=pedestrian+area=yes, while I traced the 
covered walkways (that connect the bus shelters) and tagged it as building=roof 
& highway=footway

I'm not sure if I should just create single area of highway=pedestrian and put 
the building=roof over it or what. Also, the roof doesn't render as a building, 
but as a white pedestrian area. I think if it is tagged at building=roof, I 
should ask -carto to render it as a building, but it logically remains a 
footpath as well.  

I'm unsure of how to tag it all. I assume I have made a mistake mixing 
pedestrian and footway tags. 


2) what is the best practices for tracing sidewalks? when following a sidewalk 
along a road, and you reach an intersection, does the footpath way cross the 
road via the sidewalk (continuing along the road, or does it turn the corner, 
following the sidewalk encompassing the block, and the sidewalks are separate 
ways ( rather than a node)  that join disparate footpaths at the corners of the 
intersection? 

This is an intersection mapped with footpaths following the sidewalks around 
the block, with sidewalk ways connecting the corners at the intersection. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=20/36.42339/139.05830


I'm guessing for simplicity, the way follows the street through the 
intersections, but to map the sidewalk as a way would require segmentation of 
the ways anyways, so following the sidewalk around the corner seems to be a 
cleaner choice, especially with the heavy paint work here in Japan for 
sidewalks. 


Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] lanes=-1 especially in Canada

[Bryce Nesbitt]

The lanes -1 appear all over the world, just concentrated in one Canadian
province.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Water tap

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 3:01 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I suggest the tag for taps go ahead for voting. But remove all the
> purity/potable things .. just vote on the tap. I don't see any problem
> there.
>

The proposal at
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/water_tap is messy
enough, it's not ready for voting.
Keep in mind also this proposal breaks existing data consumers.
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Re: [Tagging] 'Variety' in UK English?

[Guillaume Pratte]

I have contacted the changeset authors as suggested, but could not find trace 
of the original proposer. I updated the wiki also.

Guillaume

> Le 2014-12-29 à 16:45, Tom Pfeifer  a écrit :
> 
> Langenscheidt translates DE:varieté into "variety theatre, music hall, Am. 
> vaudeville theatre".
> Oxford defines 'variety' for both BE/AE as "a form of television or theater 
> entertainment
> consisting of a series of different types of acts, such as singing, dancing, 
> and comedy"
> 
> All is exactly what was intended with the German "varieté" in the Wiki.
> (Apparently in language, DE:varieté has been borrowed from FR:variétés, 
> losing some
> fine details when passing the border)
> 
> Thus I'd tune into the suggestion (here and on the talk page) to change it
> to theatre:genre=variety in the wiki, talk to those who have tagged the 9 
> occurrences and
> inform the original proposer.
> 
> tom
> 
> Florian Schäfer wrote on 2014-12-29 21:59:
>> Am 29.12.2014 um 21:57 schrieb Florian Schäfer:
>>> Am 29.12.2014 um 21:48 schrieb Steve Doerr:
 On 29/12/2014 20:36, Steve Doerr wrote:
> On 29/12/2014 19:41, Guillaume Pratte wrote:
>> We are having a discussion on the wiki about the ‘varieté’ value for the 
>> theatre:genre tag values:
>> 
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:amenity%3Dtheatre#variet.C3.A9
>>  
>> 
>> 
>> ‘varieté’ does not seems English (shouldn’t it be ‘variety’?), and it’s 
>> not French either (it should be ‘variété’).
>> 
>> I suppose in the US they would write ‘variety’. How is it spelled in the 
>> UK?
> 
> The same: variety. My impression is that, in French, it is normally 
> plural (e.g. théâtre de variétés), so if we wanted a French tag-value it 
> would be variétés
 
 OK, the term varieté (and other genres) was introduced in the Wiki in 
 February 2010 by a German user called BlackBike. It seems there is a 
 German word Varieté, also spelt Varietee, translated by leo.org as 'music 
 hall' or 'vaudeville'. I'm not familiar
 with the subtleties of these different terms, but it's not impossible that 
 there is a genre specific to the German-speaking world, subtly different 
 from variety, vaudeville, music-hall, or French variétés, which therefore 
 needs a tag-value of its own:
 theatre:genre=varieté.
>>> The German "Varieté" translates to "Music Hall" (BE) or "Vaudeville" (AE).
>> Excuse me, I've read your message too fast and didn't realize you already 
>> said what I've written.
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] question: best practices for micromapping ped areas and footpaths?

[Marc Gemis]

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 5:27 AM, johnw  wrote:

> I mapped the open sections as highway=pedestrian+area=yes, while I traced
> the covered walkways (that connect the bus shelters) and tagged it as
> building=roof & highway=footway
>

For me this means that you walk on the roof. You should have 2 separate OSM
objects, one for the roof and one for the footway. The roof should be
tagged as building=roof, layer=1.

regards

m
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