Re: [Tagging] [OSM-dev] Renderer issue: highway=service and service=driveway?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014/1/8 Pieren 

> However, I see some interest to have a specific documentation for
> Africa.
>


agreed. FYI, I have changed the description on this page for tracks
(before: connection roads between hamlets, after: agricultural and forestry
use only). Be it in Africa or not, if a road has connection functionality
it can't be a track!



> The highway main doc is very european centric. But this
> discussion should continue on the tagging list.
>


+1, please follow ups on "tagging"

cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Martin Vonwald]

Hi!

Since when is "unsuitable" an accepted value for the access keys? I always
thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions.

best regards,
Martin

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access#Values
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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Pieren]

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Martin Vonwald  wrote:

> Since when is "unsuitable" an accepted value for the access keys? I always
> thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions.

It says "usage is discouraged (e.g. HGVs on narrow lanes) . Often
marked by a traffic sign "

So maybe, there is a traffic sign for "unsuitable" which is different
from "no". An example would be appreciated.

Pieren

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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014/1/8 Pieren 

> > Since when is "unsuitable" an accepted value for the access keys? I
> always
> > thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions.
>
> It says "usage is discouraged (e.g. HGVs on narrow lanes) . Often
> marked by a traffic sign "
>
> So maybe, there is a traffic sign for "unsuitable" which is different
> from "no". An example would be appreciated.
>


The value was now changed to "discouraged". I have found 2 occurances of
this in taginfo (checked access, foot, vehicle and motor_vehicle and found
just 2 bicycle=discouraged), hence my suggestion is to remove this from the
access page for now, as it wasn't discussed or officially proposed and
isn't in use either. Please make a proposal and see what others think about
this, before adding it to the documentation of established tags.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Colin Smale]

 

I am not sure why it was suddenly changed (today) from unsuitable to
discouraged, but "Unsuitable for HGVs" is seen frequently in the UK. To
my understanding there is a difference between the semantics of
unsuitable and discouraged, the former being a simple statement of
(official) opinion and the latter indicating that active measures have
been taken to decrease its occurrence. In any case it might not be
legally enforceable, but if you are shown to have ignored the official
warning it may affect your position if it came to an incident (insurance
claim). 

Taginfo gives 318 occurrences of hgv=unsuitable. The principle of hgv=*
(and other vehicle-class tags) using the same values as access=* would
also suggest there is some merit in documenting "unsuitable" as a
recognised value. 

If AndyS is reading this, maybe he could explain the change? 

Colin 

On 2014-01-08 14:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 

> 2014/1/8 Pieren 
> 
>>> Since when is "unsuitable" an accepted value for the access keys? I always
>>> thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions.
>> 
>> It says "usage is discouraged (e.g. HGVs on narrow lanes) . Often
>> marked by a traffic sign "
>> 
>> So maybe, there is a traffic sign for "unsuitable" which is different
>> from "no". An example would be appreciated.
> 
> The value was now changed to "discouraged". I have found 2 occurances of this 
> in taginfo (checked access, foot, vehicle and motor_vehicle and found just 2 
> bicycle=discouraged), hence my suggestion is to remove this from the access 
> page for now, as it wasn't discussed or officially proposed and isn't in use 
> either. Please make a proposal and see what others think about this, before 
> adding it to the documentation of established tags.
> 
> cheers,
> Martin 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Philip Barnes]

There are lots of Unsuitable for HGV/Motor vehicle signs in this very rural 
part of the UK.

I will see if I can find some photos later, I would just take some on my way 
home but only see daylight at weekends at this time of year.

Phil (trigpoint)
--

Sent from my Nokia N9



On 08/01/2014 13:38 Pieren wrote:

On Wed, Jan 8, 2014 at 2:24 PM, Martin Vonwald  wrote:


> Since when is "unsuitable" an accepted value for the access keys? I always
> thought that the access keys describe legal restrictions.


It says "usage is discouraged (e.g. HGVs on narrow lanes) . Often
marked by a traffic sign "


So maybe, there is a traffic sign for "unsuitable" which is different
from "no". An example would be appreciated.


Pieren

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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[SomeoneElse]

Colin Smale wrote:


... "Unsuitable for HGVs" is seen frequently in the UK. ...

Taginfo gives 318 occurrences of hgv=unsuitable. The principle of 
hgv=* (and other vehicle-class tags) using the same values as access=* 
would also suggest there is some merit in documenting "unsuitable" as 
a recognised value.





I'm still not convinced that "hgv=unsuitable" is be a valid access tag.  
Access _rules_ in England and Wales are complicated enough already 
without trying to include what may or may not be a good idea because you 
might get stuck.  That said, I don't yet know of a "good" way of 
recording the information beyond sticking it in a note.  FWIW I asked a 
similar question a couple of years ago on talk-gb:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2011-October/012221.html

My guess (and it is just a guess because I haven't done it) would be 
that if you wanted to create an HGV-aware routable map it wouldn't be 
that difficult to process whatever HGV tags (along with surface and 
whatever else) there are (in notes and elsewhere) to determine "don't go 
down here".  Only when someone's done a first pass of that will people 
be able to point to a road near them and say "that road should not be 
suggested or included because...".  Until someone comes up with a better 
suggestion for tagging it's just important to record "unsuitable for 
HGVs" in some manner so that it can be converted to whatever better 
scheme emerges in the future.


Cheers,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Dominic Hosler]

Personally, I don't think the wiki for a well established tag should be
changed in such a significant way without discussion and voting.
This is because I would oppose changing the access tag away from the legal
access rights. I think if we want to describe something subjective like
what vehicles may or may not fit, that should be put in a new proposal for
a new tag.
Best regards,
Dom


On 8 January 2014 15:36, SomeoneElse  wrote:

> Colin Smale wrote:
>
>>
>> ... "Unsuitable for HGVs" is seen frequently in the UK. ...
>>
>>
>> Taginfo gives 318 occurrences of hgv=unsuitable. The principle of hgv=*
>> (and other vehicle-class tags) using the same values as access=* would also
>> suggest there is some merit in documenting "unsuitable" as a recognised
>> value.
>>
>>
>>
> I'm still not convinced that "hgv=unsuitable" is be a valid access tag.
>  Access _rules_ in England and Wales are complicated enough already without
> trying to include what may or may not be a good idea because you might get
> stuck.  That said, I don't yet know of a "good" way of recording the
> information beyond sticking it in a note.  FWIW I asked a similar question
> a couple of years ago on talk-gb:
>
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2011-October/012221.html
>
> My guess (and it is just a guess because I haven't done it) would be that
> if you wanted to create an HGV-aware routable map it wouldn't be that
> difficult to process whatever HGV tags (along with surface and whatever
> else) there are (in notes and elsewhere) to determine "don't go down here".
>  Only when someone's done a first pass of that will people be able to point
> to a road near them and say "that road should not be suggested or included
> because...".  Until someone comes up with a better suggestion for tagging
> it's just important to record "unsuitable for HGVs" in some manner so that
> it can be converted to whatever better scheme emerges in the future.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andy
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 01/08/2014 05:17 PM, Dominic Hosler wrote:
> I think if we want to describe something subjective
> like what vehicles may or may not fit

There might be a misunderstanding. There are a number of roads
officially signposted: "Unsuitable for X" - this is not subjective, at
least not on the part of the mapper.

(Remembered this, but found it doesn't say "unsuitable" but "not
advised" instead - http://www.communigate.co.uk/ne/bsabantamvc/phpFTq62V)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Philip Barnes]

These examples are not far from home so I can get some copyright free
versions, when there is some daylight.

An example of unsuitable for all motor vehicles
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.812712,-2.642415&spn=0.003962,0.010364&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.812712,-2.642415&panoid=wmYBMLnyBiKjRsNIkNw57w&cbp=12,7.72,,1,2.89

and unsuitable for HGVs
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.873274,-2.724481&spn=0.007965,0.020728&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=52.873314,-2.724506&panoid=nA6y8jfXn9h0aQlJ38KRIQ&cbp=12,340.45,,0,14.96

and one in full
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.871746,-2.735252&spn=0.007965,0.020728&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=52.871725,-2.73534&panoid=yvYYjN3db-nYjq0IxmnkaQ&cbp=12,2.61,,1,3.54

There are others, such as unsuitable for caravans and unsuitable for
coaches, but can't easily place examples of these.

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-dev] Renderer issue: highway=service and service=driveway?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014/1/8 Pierre Béland 

> The images in the Highway tag usage wiki page give implicitely
> instructions to take care of the quality of the road to classify. But it is
> stated at the beginning of the page, that it is sometimes useful to adapt 
> *highway
>  tag usage* to the local
> physical conditions.
>


yes, we could remove the images altogether or complement them with
different ones from different regions in order to put them into context.
Lets discuss this in tagging.

Btw.: there was also a voting about the highway system (physical vs. grid
hierarchy):
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Highway_key_voting_importance
and this is still reflected in the definition: "The *highway tag* is the
main tag used for identifying any kind of road, street or path. The highway
type helps indicate the importance of the highway within the road network
as a whole."

cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Feature proposal - Voting - Gambling (reminder)

[Matthijs Melissen]

Dear all,

This is a reminder that voting on the gambling proposal is currently
open. Voting can be done here:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Gambling

With kind regards,
Matthijs Melissen

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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Jonathan]

Very important that we can mark roads that are officially designated as 
unsuitable for certain vehicles.  Don't see a problem with this use of 
this tag?


Jonathan

http://bigfatfrog67.me

On 08/01/2014 17:44, Philip Barnes wrote:

These examples are not far from home so I can get some copyright free
versions, when there is some daylight.

An example of unsuitable for all motor vehicles
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.812712,-2.642415&spn=0.003962,0.010364&t=m&z=17&layer=c&cbll=52.812712,-2.642415&panoid=wmYBMLnyBiKjRsNIkNw57w&cbp=12,7.72,,1,2.89

and unsuitable for HGVs
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.873274,-2.724481&spn=0.007965,0.020728&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=52.873314,-2.724506&panoid=nA6y8jfXn9h0aQlJ38KRIQ&cbp=12,340.45,,0,14.96

and one in full
https://maps.google.co.uk/?ll=52.871746,-2.735252&spn=0.007965,0.020728&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=52.871725,-2.73534&panoid=yvYYjN3db-nYjq0IxmnkaQ&cbp=12,2.61,,1,3.54

There are others, such as unsuitable for caravans and unsuitable for
coaches, but can't easily place examples of these.

Phil (trigpoint)


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[Tagging] access in the wiki: move psv to "by use"

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I propose to move "psv" (including "taxi" and "bus") from the vehicle
classes section to the section "by use", because that's what it is.

page for reference:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:access

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Greg Troxel]

Jonathan  writes:

> Very important that we can mark roads that are officially designated
> as unsuitable for certain vehicles.  Don't see a problem with this use
> of this tag?

Sure, but designated as unsuitable is not about right of access; it's a
different kind of attribute.   So something like

unsuitable=hgv

would denote that there is some official signage saying hgvs are
unsuitable, and separate that from notions that they are prohibited.

This may seem pedantic, but using the osm data is confusing enough
already, and legal rights and physical reality are entirely separate
issues.


pgpqTDmeNeSJV.pgp
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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014/1/9 Greg Troxel 

> Sure, but designated as unsuitable is not about right of access; it's a
> different kind of attribute.   So something like
>
> unsuitable=hgv
>


this might depend on the circumstances/jurisdiction. Maybe it would already
put you legally in a bad situation if you drove your hgv into that road
with the sign suggesting you don't do so, and something (i.e. damage)
happens? Can you really enter with your unsuitable vehicle into this road
as freely as you could without the sign?

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Unsuitable?

[Richard Fairhurst]

dieterdreist wrote:
> this might depend on the circumstances/jurisdiction. Maybe it would 
> already put you legally in a bad situation if you drove your hgv into 
> that road with the sign suggesting you don't do so, and something 
> (i.e. damage) happens?

Yes. AIUI "Unsuitable for HGVs" is not a formal prohibition, but
deliberately ignoring such a sign could be a contributory factor to a
conviction for "driving without due care and attention" in the UK.

cheers
Richard





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Re: [Tagging] access in the wiki: move psv to "by use"

[Martin Vonwald]

2014/1/9 Martin Koppenhoefer 

> I propose to move "psv" (including "taxi" and "bus") from the vehicle
> classes section to the section "by use", because that's what it is.
>

I agree. (Usage, that relies on the current hierarchy should be limited to
non-existent)

And maybe it is time to think again about some larger clean up of the
access tags. There are already some proposals available if I remember
correct. I just say "maybe"!

Best regards,
Martin
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