Re: [Tagging] Tagging Live Indoor Music Venues (continued)

[René Kirchhoff]

Hello, why you no create a proposal-site first?
Please read the site http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal and add to
your Site the template: "Template:Proposal_Page"

Long Version in German:
Hallo, warum legst du nicht zuerst eine Proposal-Seite an, die für eine
Abstimmung und Diskussion eines neuen Attributs gedacht ist? Du kannst
deine neue Seite verschieben zu Proposed features/amenity=music_venue.
Ergänze auch: Template:Proposal_Page

gruss reneman

2013/3/1 william skora 

>
> To those who commented, thank you.
>
> I've created a wiki page
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dmusic_venue that include
> the points that most of we were able to agree upon, which is using
> amenity=music_venue to tag these places.
>
>
> As for using concert_hall, and other more complex tags, we can continue
> the discussion on there (or here if you want) and as more of these objects
> are tagged, more tags can be used.
>
> regards,
> will.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Live Indoor Music Venues (continued)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/3/1 René Kirchhoff :
> Hello, why you no create a proposal-site first?
> Please read the site http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposal and add to
> your Site the template: "Template:Proposal_Page"


There is already a proposal page to document the tag and variants and
subtags, so as long as there is neither voting nor significant active
use of the tag you really shouldn't set up a tag page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Music_venue

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/2/27 Svavar Kjarrval :
> It works until the article name is changed in that particular language,
> then it won't work for any language until it's fixed, if ever. Of course
> one could argue it's very unlikely in the case of a famous franchise but
> what about less famous places that have a Wikipedia entry?


Wikidata seems to be a reference to article names, so it will fail
just the same in the case the articles get restructured (what happens
continuously). Take the McDonald's Corp. vs. "McDonald's Deutschland
inc." example: currently there is only one WP article (the one about
McDonald's in German language) that speaks about "McDonald's
Deutschland inc.". So how would you tag this? All of them might be
brand=McDonald's (whether they are operated by the German company or
the American one or are a franchise operated by another company (the
latter is the most usual case). The actual operator would be either a
third party or one of the McDonald's companies, you can tag this to
operator (even if it is also of very few interest to most users).

Now: if it were McDonald's Deutschland to operate the place, would you
then add the wikidata-tag of McDonald's to it, because the only
article that apparently speaks about McDonald's Deutschland inc. is
the article linked from there? It won't help anyway (to distinguish
between the American and the German McD), and as soon as a "McDonald's
Deutschland inc." articles gets created it would also be somehow
"wrong".

The problem is that wikipedia is not a database about companies, it is
an encyclopedia where it doesn't necessarily make sense to have a
distinct article for every business, and this doesn't seem to be
overridden by the wikidata concept (as it looks now).

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/2/27 Peter Wendorff :
> Am 27.02.2013 13:01, schrieb Pieren:
>> On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Peter Wendorff
>>  wrote:
>> About "McDonalds" or "McDonald's", define the standard value, call
>> XAPI/overpass or keepright/osmose to find them and fix the wrong
>> values with JOSM. It takes 2 minutes and the problem is closed.
>
> -1
> You would create new bugs for the plumber McDonalds, the taxi company
> McDonalds and many more, who are NOT named McDonald's (or vice versa).


+1, this already happened in the past and was reverted (someone wanted
to unify all kinds of McDonald's and didn't think before that not all
of them would be fast-food restaurants of the famous brand). Anyway,
operator is not the right key in many cases (but in some cases it is)
while brand is IMHO good for all.

Cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/2/27 Janko Mihelić :
> It is providing context. The goal of Wikidata isn't to become a catalog of
> Wikipedia articles, it is to become a big semantic database that has lots of
> structured data (which is, conveniently, described in Wikipedia articles).


fine, but they apparently started the db with article names, so it is
just the same for now, and it doesn't really look as if they read all
articles in all languages to check for consistency. If someone links a
wikipedia=it:foo at least you know that he checked this language. If
he adds a neutral link to a series of articles (like wikidata) you
won't know which of these articles he is referring to ;-)


> If we want, we can refine the data in Wikidata to better suit our needs, of
> course, if our requests make sense to Wikidatans.


first we would have to create a lot more entities there, many
wikipedia articles would have more than one wikidata-object I guess.
Then there would have to be attributes and classes to describe in
details the object that the entry is about, a link to an article with
lots of free text just doesn't do it. Personally in OSM I am using
additionally to operator the tag ref:vatin to map the VAT
Identification Number of a business, which is unique and you get it on
every receipt when you buy something. There are also databases around
listing all these businesses.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/2/27 A.Pirard.Papou 

>  On 2013-02-27 12:08, Jo wrote :
>
> I suggested to Waymarked Trail and I 
> have mentioned to this list that any free format field like operator
> should be explicitly allowed to contain an URL and that the programs should
> auto-recognize URLs to make them clickable (like many many programs do,
> even my Terminal command line interface).
>
>

no, any values where URIs or URLs have to or could be inserted should be
different to our established tags. In order to be able to tolerate both
approaches it is fundamental that distinct keys are used.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[Svavar Kjarrval]

On 01/03/13 15:17, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2013/2/27 Svavar Kjarrval :
>> It works until the article name is changed in that particular language,
>> then it won't work for any language until it's fixed, if ever. Of course
>> one could argue it's very unlikely in the case of a famous franchise but
>> what about less famous places that have a Wikipedia entry?
>
> Wikidata seems to be a reference to article names, so it will fail
> just the same in the case the articles get restructured (what happens
> continuously). Take the McDonald's Corp. vs. "McDonald's Deutschland
> inc." example: currently there is only one WP article (the one about
> McDonald's in German language) that speaks about "McDonald's
> Deutschland inc.". So how would you tag this? All of them might be
> brand=McDonald's (whether they are operated by the German company or
> the American one or are a franchise operated by another company (the
> latter is the most usual case). The actual operator would be either a
> third party or one of the McDonald's companies, you can tag this to
> operator (even if it is also of very few interest to most users).
That's why the original poster later suggested franchise:wikidata
instead of operator:wikidata.

Let's say I create a Wikipedia referral to ACME corp. using
wikipedia=is:ACME_corp and that article is used to derive the article
name in the English Wikipedia and perhaps tens more languages. If the
name of the article in the Icelandic Wikipedia site is later changed,
Wikipedia articles in the other languages can't be derived by the
Icelandic Wikipedia one, since there isn't one by that name in the
Icelandic Wikipedia, therefore the Wikipedia connection is lost for all
languages. A Wikidata connection would be independant of languages in
that regard so this problem is far less likely to happen.
>
> Now: if it were McDonald's Deutschland to operate the place, would you
> then add the wikidata-tag of McDonald's to it, because the only
> article that apparently speaks about McDonald's Deutschland inc. is
> the article linked from there? It won't help anyway (to distinguish
> between the American and the German McD), and as soon as a "McDonald's
> Deutschland inc." articles gets created it would also be somehow
> "wrong".
This is where the operator:wikidata tag would be useful in conjunction
with the franchise:wikidata tag.
>
> The problem is that wikipedia is not a database about companies, it is
> an encyclopedia where it doesn't necessarily make sense to have a
> distinct article for every business, and this doesn't seem to be
> overridden by the wikidata concept (as it looks now).
I agree. This would be something the data consumer would have to derive.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[Janko Mihelić]

2013/3/1 Martin Koppenhoefer 

>
> The problem is that wikipedia is not a database about companies, it is
> an encyclopedia where it doesn't necessarily make sense to have a
> distinct article for every business, and this doesn't seem to be
> overridden by the wikidata concept (as it looks now).
>

I agree, this is the main weakness of Wikidata. It's probably more precise
to use the VAT number. What is the status of VAT number databases? Could we
make some large imports of VAT data to OSM?

As for Wikidata, data consumers will know the limitations of it, and will
have to choose if that tag is good enough, or if they want to use
ref:vatin=* or some other identifier.

Janko
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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[John F. Eldredge]

"Janko Mihelić"  wrote:

> 2013/3/1 Martin Koppenhoefer 
> 
> >
> > The problem is that wikipedia is not a database about companies, it
> is
> > an encyclopedia where it doesn't necessarily make sense to have a
> > distinct article for every business, and this doesn't seem to be
> > overridden by the wikidata concept (as it looks now).
> >
> 
> I agree, this is the main weakness of Wikidata. It's probably more
> precise
> to use the VAT number. What is the status of VAT number databases?
> Could we
> make some large imports of VAT data to OSM?
> 
> As for Wikidata, data consumers will know the limitations of it, and
> will
> have to choose if that tag is good enough, or if they want to use
> ref:vatin=* or some other identifier.
> 
> Janko
> 
> 
> 
> 
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One issue with using officially-issued ID numbers (I assume that a VAT number 
is a Value-Added Tax number assigned by the UK government) is that there is no 
world-wide registry guaranteeing that the IDs are unique.  A given ID might 
mean one company in the UK, a different one in Germany, and yet another company 
in Japan, for example.  So, any such tag would need to include a country code.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to 
think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria

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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[Janko Mihelić]

2013/3/1 John F. Eldredge 

>
> One issue with using officially-issued ID numbers (I assume that a VAT
> number is a Value-Added Tax number assigned by the UK government) is that
> there is no world-wide registry guaranteeing that the IDs are unique.  A
> given ID might mean one company in the UK, a different one in Germany, and
> yet another company in Japan, for example.  So, any such tag would need to
> include a country code.
>
>
It does:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAT_identification_number

The problem I have with this is that it gives you the VAT number of the
company that got to use the franchise. That means one number for each
country (maybe more in some countries?) This again makes it hard to find
all McDonald's in the World. A data consumer has to do some research for
each franchise he wants to list.

Wikidatas Mc'Donalds is about the company you have to buy the franchise
from. So why isn't franchise:wikidata=Q38076 enough? I think it's as
accurate and simple as it can get.

Janko
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Re: [Tagging] Proposition for a classification of path

[Konfrare Albert]

Hi!

First say that I appreciate your proposal for improve the tagging of paths, is
one of my interests too. I immediately understood what are you saying with
«cul de sac» (I'm catalan!), and I take this opportunity to say that "cul
de sac" path of Gavernie is fantastic and highly recommended path ;)

I think that unfortunately the key tracktype=* is more used simply because
it's rendered in OSM map. I'm not sure if is a good key... I frequently
have serious problems to decide the grade of a track, and I see in your
proposal many similarities with the concept of this key...

I understand your proposal, but I prefer the keys that show us more
information about the path. I also think that grades can be used depending
on subjective criteria very different and increase
verifiabilityproblems.

I'm sure that if keys like trail_visibility=*, smoothness=*, sac_scale=* or
obstacle=* were rendered in the map would increase their use, and would
increase the information of the paths. Perhaps the paths in forests -for
example- could be rendered with more information, like in cities, where you
can see more information: shops, bollards, traffic lights, trees, etc..
with some icons.

The nodes could be rendered with a icon, and the ways with an icon in the
beginning  and another icon when the value ends (for example, one icon in
the beginning of trail_visibility=bad and in the final of this value).

On the other hand, I find interesting the idea to say where the paths lead
us. Perhaps the solution could be something similar to
destination=*for
paths.

Regards!

ALBERT


2013/2/25 Balaitous 

> Hi,
> I have wrote a proposition of classification for path.
> You can see it at :
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/pathtype
>
> Balaitous
>
>
>
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-- 
*KONFRARE ALBERT*
La Konfraria de la Vila del Pingüí
de La Palma de Cervelló
www.konfraria.org • @La_Konfraria 
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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/3/1 Janko Mihelić :
> The problem I have with this is that it gives you the VAT number of the
> company that got to use the franchise. That means one number for each
> country (maybe more in some countries?)


there will be many numbers, yes.


> This again makes it hard to find all
> McDonald's in the World. A data consumer has to do some research for each
> franchise he wants to list.


it will answer the question who operates them. For grouping them you
can look for brand, name, operator, and maybe more tags if you want to
find them all, I prefer brand in this case.

> Wikidatas Mc'Donalds is about the company you have to buy the franchise
> from. So why isn't franchise:wikidata=Q38076 enough? I think it's as
> accurate and simple as it can get.


if its operated by the main company it's no franchise.

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[Janko Mihelić]

2013/3/1 Martin Koppenhoefer 

>
> it will answer the question who operates them. For grouping them you
> can look for brand, name, operator, and maybe more tags if you want to
> find them all, I prefer brand in this case.
>

In what language do you suggest we write this in? For example, it would be
natural to write Samsung in Korean, for it is a Korean company. But Korean
has two styles of writing, Hanja and Hangul, so we should decide which one
to use. Or should we go with English, because Openstreetmap relies on
English?

What about duplicate brands?

I think names are not a good way of uniquely defining data.
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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/3/1 Janko Mihelić :
> In what language do you suggest we write this in? For example, it would be
> natural to write Samsung in Korean, for it is a Korean company. But Korean
> has two styles of writing, Hanja and Hangul, so we should decide which one
> to use. Or should we go with English, because Openstreetmap relies on
> English?
>
> What about duplicate brands?


sooner or later you will discover them with this system ;-)
Not sure if this will be a real problem, probably you will be able to
separate them by country buondaries later.

For the language, I'd use the "typical" brand name. For instance
Samsung seems to be written exactly like this also in Korea:
http://www.samsung.com/sec/#latest-home

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag

[A.Pirard.Papou]

  
  
On 2013-03-01 21:50, Martin
  Koppenhoefer wrote :


  2013/3/1 Janko Mihelić :

  
In what language do you suggest we write this in? For example, it would be
natural to write Samsung in Korean, for it is a Korean company. But Korean
has two styles of writing, Hanja and Hangul, so we should decide which one
to use. Or should we go with English, because Openstreetmap relies on
English?

What about duplicate brands?

  
  

sooner or later you will discover them with this system ;-)
Not sure if this will be a real problem, probably you will be able to
separate them by country buondaries later.

For the language, I'd use the "typical" brand name. For instance
Samsung seems to be written exactly like this also in Korea:
http://www.samsung.com/sec/#latest-home


It rather seems to me that they write  삼성.
Look carefully, that page has many.
If you don't see them, type Ctrl+F.
If you want more,  do a  삼성  site search.
I think that we should not decide, but ask 삼성.
I think they will choose "Samsung".

Cheers, 


  

  André.

  


  


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Re: [Tagging] Proposition for a classification of path

[Balaitous]

Hola, estas un vecino, vivo en Toulouse !
Discúlpame, solo entiendo el español, no entiendo el catalan.

More generally, I think there is a problem with path tagging, and we
must work about new propositions before voting anything.
The actual set of tags does not adequately describe paths.

* A proposition for markup.
I think something like
markup=yes/no
markup:quality=excellent/good/...
markup:type=paint/cain/...

* There is a proposition for obstacle
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Obstacle

* A proposition introducing new values for width tag.
width=1 poeple 
width=2 poeple (when 2 persons can walk side by side)
width= >2 poeple

* A proposition for a new extended scale for sac_scale tag : The actual
scale is only relevant for mountain hiking trail.

* A new proposition for smoothness : Current definitions are not
relevant for paths. Currently it is for "Provide a classification scheme
regarding the physical usability of a way for WHEELED VEHICLES"
Or a path is a way where WHEELED VEHICLES can't go !!!
It must be adapted, by a new scale ?


But I disagree about subjectivity. I think it is also informative. The
aim of OSM is that every one map the places he know. The judgement he
can made about the signifiance of a path is as important as purely
physical characteristic.

Balaitous



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