[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - rail_trail

2012-01-30 Thread Masi Master 

Hi,
i now startet my proposal for RFC!
It's about rail-trails (german: Bahntrassenradweg). This is a disused  
railway, which converted into a multiuse path, normaly for cycling,  
inlineskating or hiking.


Link: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/rail_trail

best regards
MasiMaster


P.S.: This is my first proposal, so please let me know, if i did anything  
wrong.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - rail_trail

2012-01-30 Thread Gleb Smirnoff 
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 02:35:50PM +0100, Masi Master wrote:
M> i now startet my proposal for RFC!
M> It's about rail-trails (german: Bahntrassenradweg). This is a disused  
M> railway, which converted into a multiuse path, normaly for cycling,  
M> inlineskating or hiking.
M> 
M> Link: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/rail_trail

An abandoned railway (usually a narrow gauge one) is quite a common
object in Russia. Numerous narrow gauge light railways were built
to transport wood. As soon as a certain area of forest gets depleted
rails are unmounted, but the embankment left is used as a road.

However, it is usually used not as a cycling path :) since it
runs through wilderness and may span up to 100 klms. Since it
isn't serviced, it usually gets to condition when only 4x4
vehicle can pass.

I have mapped some of these former railways, and I usually use
railway=abandoned on them. I'm glad that you made a proposal, however
I'd appreciate if new tagging scheme would fit both German and Russian
realities.

I'll upload several fotos and link them to proposal page in next few
days, as well as add couple of words to the proposal, if you don't
mind.

-- 
Totus tuus, Glebius.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - rail_trail

2012-01-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2012/1/30 Masi Master :
> i now startet my proposal for RFC!
> It's about rail-trails (german: Bahntrassenradweg).
> Link: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/rail_trail


AFAIK this kind of feature is already mapped. The typical tags will be

highway=cycleway (because it is a cycleway)
railway=abandoned (because it once was a railway, but now has been
abandoned and the track and infrastucture removed)

these 2 tags in combination should express exactly what you are after.
Please note that often it is better to have "a language" several
generic tags which provide interesting use cases by combinations
instead of an extremely specific tag for one extremely specific
feature (the latter tends not to get evaluated unless it occurs really
often).

(plus any other tags). Ocassionally you might also want to add some of these:

embankment=yes (de:Damm)
cutting=yes (de:Einschnitt)
tunnel
bridge

> P.S.: This is my first proposal, so please let me know, if i did anything
> wrong.

Some work can be avoided by writing an email to [tagging] before
starting with the proposal (if there already is something in use you
don't have to make a similar proposal)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - rail_trail

2012-01-30 Thread Gleb Smirnoff 
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 02:51:15PM +0100, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
M> > i now startet my proposal for RFC!
M> > It's about rail-trails (german: Bahntrassenradweg).
M> > Link: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/rail_trail
M> 
M> 
M> AFAIK this kind of feature is already mapped. The typical tags will be
M> 
M> highway=cycleway (because it is a cycleway)
M> railway=abandoned (because it once was a railway, but now has been
M> abandoned and the track and infrastucture removed)

Yes, I must admit that railway=abandoned + highway=track works for
our Russian case quite well.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - rail_trail

2012-01-30 Thread Volker Schmidt 
I like the idea to see ex-railway cycleways on the map. I also like to see
cycle routes on the map, and I would like to see ex-railways on the map.

I have my doubts whether the tagging of a cycleway as being on a n
ex-railway should be done at the level of a key to the highway tag. If I
understand your proposal correctly a typical tagging would look like this
highway=path
bicycle=designated
foot=designated
surface= xxx
width= xxx
ref= xxx
rail_trail=yes

I see several problems whit this approach:

If the ex-railway continues, as it often happens on a piece of normal raod,
not on a designated cycle path, would you add railtrail=yes to
highway=secondary. If you don't do that the rendering will be interrupted.

Then I do not see how you would instruct the routing algorithm to prefer
the railtrail ways over other cycleways

I think that the better way is to use a route relation for this. The
proposed tag could be an additional tag of the cycle route relation,
provide that the entire cycle route is based on a an ex-railway. So we
would have a normal cycle route relation that has an extra tag that a
renderer could use to show the route differently form a “normal” cycle
route.

Yet another possibility would be to create an ex-railway relation and
render it independently form the cycle routes. In the map you would see
cycle routes and ex-railway routes in different representations on the map.
Where they coincide you know that your cycleway is on an ex-railway


Volker
Padova
Italy
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[Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread Nathan Edgars II 
I ask because someone added a name:vi tag for Orange County, Florida: 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/389011
As far as I know, there is no large Vietnamese population here and no 
other reason why someone would want to know the literal translation of 
Orange County into Vietnamese.


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Re: [Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2012/1/30 Nathan Edgars II :
> I ask because someone added a name:vi tag for Orange County, Florida:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/389011
> As far as I know, there is no large Vietnamese population here and no other
> reason why someone would want to know the literal translation of Orange
> County into Vietnamese.


According to Wikipedia this is the vietnamese Name for Orange County:
http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qu%E1%BA%ADn_Cam,_California

It is quite frequent that the names of the more famous places get
translated into different languages. I don't speak Vietnamese, but
this looks like nothing particularily strange to me. If you need a
reason to keep it: I guess the Vietnamese speaking people will find it
useful ;-)

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread Nathan Edgars II 

On 1/30/2012 1:07 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

2012/1/30 Nathan Edgars II:

I ask because someone added a name:vi tag for Orange County, Florida:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/389011
As far as I know, there is no large Vietnamese population here and no other
reason why someone would want to know the literal translation of Orange
County into Vietnamese.


According to Wikipedia this is the vietnamese Name for Orange County:
http://vi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qu%E1%BA%ADn_Cam,_California


Yes, cam is orange (the fruit). Note that Orange County, California does 
have a large Vietnamese population.


It is quite frequent that the names of the more famous places get
translated into different languages. I don't speak Vietnamese, but
this looks like nothing particularily strange to me. If you need a
reason to keep it: I guess the Vietnamese speaking people will find it
useful ;-)


The question is how far we go. Should every Main Street be translated 
into hundreds of languages?


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Re: [Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread Mike N 

On 1/30/2012 1:14 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

The question is how far we go. Should every Main Street be translated
into hundreds of languages?


 Well, for Orange County FL, one could make the case that it serves 
tourists, since many visitors come from around the world.


 But the question of every place being translated into every language 
is still valid.


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Re: [Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread sabas88 
2012/1/30 Nathan Edgars II 

>
>>
>> It is quite frequent that the names of the more famous places get
>> translated into different languages. I don't speak Vietnamese, but
>> this looks like nothing particularily strange to me. If you need a
>> reason to keep it: I guess the Vietnamese speaking people will find it
>> useful ;-)
>>
>
> The question is how far we go. Should every Main Street be translated into
> hundreds of languages?


Every Main St is a famous road? :)

Regarding roads I couldn't say many examples of roads with a translated
name (of course a literal translation is possible but it's not very useful
if that translation isn't established), perhaps the Champs Elysèes in Paris.
It's more common for other toponyms like cities (Genova/Genes/Genoa/Genua
for instance).
And if I guessed correctly one could see the local name and the translated
name on the map (an Italian user built a map in his regional language based
on this idea).

Stefano

PS I didn't see a translation in italian for Orange County, perhaps
vietnamese people refer to the county with a translated name :)
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Re: [Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread Volker Schmidt 
Could it be that some Vietnamese mapper prepares Vietnamese name tags for
being able to produce a world or US map labels in Vietnamese.
Why don't you ask the mapper who added the tag?

Volker
(from Italy)

On 30 January 2012 18:53, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:

> I ask because someone added a name:vi tag for Orange County, Florida:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/**browse/relation/389011
> As far as I know, there is no large Vietnamese population here and no
> other reason why someone would want to know the literal translation of
> Orange County into Vietnamese.
>
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> http://lists.openstreetmap.**org/listinfo/tagging
>



-- 

Volker SCHMIDT
Via Vecchia 18/ter
35127 Padova
Italy

mailto:vosc...@gmail.com
office phone: +39-049-829-5977
office fax +39-049-8700718
home phone:  +39-049-851519
personal mobile: +39-340-1427105
skype: volker.schmidt
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Re: [Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread Nathan Edgars II 

Martin, what is this? http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/10542244
This is Orange County, Florida, not Orange County, California.

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Re: [Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 9:53 AM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

> I ask because someone added a name:vi tag for Orange County, Florida:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/**browse/relation/389011
> As far as I know, there is no large Vietnamese population here and no
> other reason why someone would want to know the literal translation of
> Orange County into Vietnamese.
>

I only include it if there's signs posted in multiple languages.   The one
that stands out most in my head is Mission Street in Sapulpa, OK is
cosigned in Muscogee as "Yugeeha Yusten".
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Re: [Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread Paul Johnson 
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 10:24 AM, sabas88  wrote:

> Every Main St is a famous road? :)
>
>
I'm reminded of this:
http://moonbattery.com/occupy-wall-street-small-town.jpg
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[Tagging] Public airport multipolygon?

2012-01-30 Thread Nathan Edgars II 
There's a problem with the key type. It's necessary for a multipolygon 
relation, but also has other uses such as the type of airport 
(public/private). So how is one to indicate that an airport represented 
by a multipolygon is public?


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Re: [Tagging] Public airport multipolygon?

2012-01-30 Thread Josh Doe 
On Mon, Jan 30, 2012 at 3:29 PM, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
> There's a problem with the key type. It's necessary for a multipolygon
> relation, but also has other uses such as the type of airport
> (public/private). So how is one to indicate that an airport represented by a
> multipolygon is public?

I guess you can't, at least not now. That's one issue with the
free-form tagging system we use. Sooner or later we'll have to develop
a process to deprecate tags, change tags, etc. Perhaps we should start
a separate thread and discuss how this process could work.

-Josh

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Re: [Tagging] Public airport multipolygon?

2012-01-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
2012/1/30 Nathan Edgars II :
> There's a problem with the key type.


+1

> It's necessary for a multipolygon
> relation,


it is necessary for all kinds of relations.

We could discourage the use of the key "type" in favour of more
specific keys like building:type, airport:type etc. or change the
syntax of the relation-type to relation:type instead of a simple type.
Actual usage shows that type is by far most used in the context of
relations:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/type#values

The only tag with more then 1% that is not a relation is "type=broad_leafed"

cheers,
Martin

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Re: [Tagging] Public airport multipolygon?

2012-01-30 Thread sabas88 
2012/1/30 Josh Doe 

>
> I guess you can't, at least not now. That's one issue with the
> free-form tagging system we use. Sooner or later we'll have to develop
> a process to deprecate tags, change tags, etc. Perhaps we should start
> a separate thread and discuss how this process could work.


+1
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Re: [Tagging] Public airport multipolygon?

2012-01-30 Thread Nathan Edgars II 

On 1/30/2012 3:29 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

There's a problem with the key type. It's necessary for a multipolygon
relation, but also has other uses such as the type of airport
(public/private). So how is one to indicate that an airport represented
by a multipolygon is public?


Addendum: would access=public be correct for a public airport, or is 
that bad because the polygon also includes the restricted areas?


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Re: [Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread Craig Wallace 

On 30/01/2012 17:53, Nathan Edgars II wrote:

I ask because someone added a name:vi tag for Orange County, Florida:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/389011
As far as I know, there is no large Vietnamese population here and no
other reason why someone would want to know the literal translation of
Orange County into Vietnamese.


I think its fine to add other language names for things if you have a 
reliable source for it (under a suitable licence).
So if its signposted somewhere,  or if its on a list from the official 
language agency, or from an official published map (with permission to 
use it) etc.


And preferably a source specific to that place. Two places might have 
the same name in English, but different names in another language.


I'm not convinced that Wikipedia is a reliable source for other language 
names.


Craig

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Re: [Tagging] When should a name:* translation be used?

2012-01-30 Thread LM_1 
Some cities/towns (especially those that are important for a long
time) have different names in different languages (here in Europe
almost every major and many minor towns).
If there is such a name, it should be added. If I browse through map
of China, I would like to see Peking (Czech name), I can live with
Beijing, but 北京 is not helpful at all.
Of course this name should be generally used by users of the language,
not just translation.
Survey (of language use) should be as good source for language
translations, as it is for mapping.
Lukas (LM_1)

2012/1/30 Craig Wallace :
> On 30/01/2012 17:53, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>>
>> I ask because someone added a name:vi tag for Orange County, Florida:
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/relation/389011
>> As far as I know, there is no large Vietnamese population here and no
>> other reason why someone would want to know the literal translation of
>> Orange County into Vietnamese.
>
>
> I think its fine to add other language names for things if you have a
> reliable source for it (under a suitable licence).
> So if its signposted somewhere,  or if its on a list from the official
> language agency, or from an official published map (with permission to use
> it) etc.
>
> And preferably a source specific to that place. Two places might have the
> same name in English, but different names in another language.
>
> I'm not convinced that Wikipedia is a reliable source for other language
> names.
>
> Craig
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public airport multipolygon?

2012-01-30 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
Am 30/gen/2012 um 21:47 schrieb Nathan Edgars II :

> On 1/30/2012 3:29 PM, Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>> such as the type of airport
>> (public/private).
> 
> Addendum: would access=public be correct for a public airport,


-1


> or is that bad because the polygon also includes the restricted areas?



Yes.
Btw: what is the meaning of Public/private airport? Is this the operator? The 
proprietor?
I'd choose a tag that makes it unambiguously clear which property it refers to.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - rail_trail

2012-01-30 Thread Masi Master 

Ok, i agree with most of you!
highway=cycleway + railway=abandoned is good.
Some people prefer highway=cycleway + railway=dismantled (see:  
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Railways#Abandoned_railways_where_all_evidence_has_been_removed)


So should we change the proposal to these both cases!? (so we can pimp the  
wiki (Key:cycleway & Key:railway))


Then we need a consensus about rendering in Mapnik!



Ohh is see, the Osmarender plot both, cycleway & abandoned railway:
http://hikebikemap.de/?zoom=16&lat=47.11665&lon=-118.02014&layers=000B0F

And on OpenCycleMap, the routes (or ways with "ref"(?)) are highlighted:
http://hikebikemap.de/?zoom=17&lat=51.14368&lon=7.28507&layers=00B00F


---

Am 30.01.2012, 15:05 Uhr, schrieb Volker Schmidt :
I like the idea to see ex-railway cycleways on the map. I also like to  
see

cycle routes on the map, and I would like to see ex-railways on the map.

I have my doubts whether the tagging of a cycleway as being on a n
ex-railway should be done at the level of a key to the highway tag. If I
understand your proposal correctly a typical tagging would look like this
highway=path
bicycle=designated
foot=designated
surface= xxx
width= xxx
ref= xxx
rail_trail=yes

I see several problems whit this approach:

If the ex-railway continues, as it often happens on a piece of normal  
raod,

not on a designated cycle path, would you add railtrail=yes to
highway=secondary. If you don't do that the rendering will be  
interrupted.


Then I do not see how you would instruct the routing algorithm to prefer
the railtrail ways over other cycleways


I only thought about cycleways, so if there is a section  
highway=secondary, there it makes no sence to tag it as a "good" railtrail.
For routing it's no problem, because the railtrail is a bit shorter, so  
the routing-quality of the hole way (included the secondary) is only a bit  
more less.


---

Am 30.01.2012, 14:51 Uhr, schrieb Martin Koppenhoefer  
:
(plus any other tags). Ocassionally you might also want to add some of  
these:


embankment=yes (de:Damm)
cutting=yes (de:Einschnitt)
tunnel
bridge


right, i can add this to the proposal page.

---

Am 30.01.2012, 14:46 Uhr, schrieb Gleb Smirnoff :

I'll upload several fotos and link them to proposal page in next few
days, as well as add couple of words to the proposal, if you don't
mind.


feel free, to add some information to the proposal page.

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Re: [Tagging] Public airport multipolygon?

2012-01-30 Thread Nathan Edgars II 

On 1/30/2012 7:29 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

Btw: what is the meaning of Public/private airport? Is this the operator? The 
proprietor?
I'd choose a tag that makes it unambiguously clear which property it refers to.


http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:aeroway%3Daerodrome
"To identify the operational purpose of the airport. Use values of 
'public' (for all airport open to paying customers), 'military' or 
'private' etc."


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - rail_trail

2012-01-30 Thread Bryce2 Nesbitt 
Your proposal should draw much more heavily from existing practice, in
particular for attributes like the surface.
Typical rail trail surfaces are basalt rock leftover from the railroad,
dirt (after the basalt rock sinks), stone dust deliberately placed, and
pavement.

Despite having worked on several rail to trail conversions myself, I don't
see much point in mapping them as rail trails.  The fact of the former
railroad is interesting to be sure, but had little bearing on the present
use as a trail.  Rail trails are usually more flat than non-rail trails,
but that's about all that's really unique compared to any other dedicated
cycleway.

There are also variants of the rail trail concept, including rail with
trail (active rail and a trail sharing the same corridor).
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