[Sursound] A-format panner.
Greetings to all Sursound list. First of all, thanks for all this years supporting Ambisonics. We´re a collective of audiovisual artists preparing for our next project. We have been researching ambisonics for the last few moths, seeding the possibility of it´s implementation. There are still some concerns regarding workflow. Our initial idea is to keep signals / conversions into the analogue domain. For example, analogue panners. I´ve stepped with very few B-format ideas on the internet, so I was wondering if there´s a case considering simple A-format panners, before AB converters. This eurorack module seems right for the task, right?: http://www.intellijel.com/eurorack-modules/planar/ But height information?. Are B-format panners somehow better? We know of the multiple ambisonics ITB plugins available, but again, we love ancient analogue qualities. Any info will be very appreciated, we´re really exited about this & will love to share the results somewhere in the near future. Best regards. Gino. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration
It is surprising, not least because speakers are able to be microphones as well... Dr. Peter Lennox School of Technology, Faculty of Arts, Design and Technology University of Derby, UK e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk t: 01332 593155 -Original Message- From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of David Worrall Sent: 26 September 2013 05:14 To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration Hi David, Thanks for your considered response. I _was_ actually thinking of it autolocating the speakers. And not necessarily just for ambisonics, actually. Some sort of a spectrum analyser/preamplifier device that derived the correct decode/gain controls of the real system acccording to the actual location of the loudspeakers, decode algorithm and your preferred listening spot ... and that self-callibrated each time you turned the system on. Given how difficult it seems to be for billions of people to set up a 5.1 system, surely there must be a market? I'm actually surprised that such a device doesn't already exist. Oh well, back to the stone-age method... David On 23/09/2013, at 9:33 PM, Dave Hunt wrote: > Hi, > >> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 21:50:00 +0200 >> From: David Worrall >> To: Surround Sound discussion group >> >> Hi All, >> I'm away from my back-up of this list (*) so please forgive if this has been >> answered before, but >> >> Is there - on the market, or in other form - a setup system/tool that auto >> configures a decoder and calibrates an ambisonic playback rig according to >> the (actual) position of the loudspeakers? >> >> thanks, >> David > > Presumably it doesn't have to auto-locate the speakers ?? That would be > clever and probably expensive. > > I have something that was built in MAX/MSP, and can turn it into an > application (Mac OS preferred but Windows is probably possible). It is first > order only, up to 16 speakers, and based on all the info about good decoders > I've found, and can understand and implement. Of course it could be extended > to higher orders, once the maths is thought through and the issue of > different kinds of W. > > Haven't done this as most of the people I'm dealing with don't have enough > speakers to make it worthwhile or essential. It's basically part of something > else which is trying to do all sorts of ambisonic things with 16 inputs from > a DAW running on the same computer. So, until higher powered computers become > affordable in an income challenged age, processing power has to be carefully > used. Increasing the ambisonic order starts to push up the number of audio > streams that need handling in a non-linear manner. Such a decoder needs > listening to, which means that you have to able to generate something to > listen to to assess how well the encode/decode works, something I haven't had > time to do above 2nd order. > > If only there was more time, things got done quicker, or someone was paying > for the work by the hour. > > Ciao, > > Dave Hunt > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20130926/3ad4f0bf/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound _ The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this email was sent to you in error, please notify the sender and delete this email. Please direct any concerns to info...@derby.ac.uk. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration
Given how difficult it seems to be for billions of people to set up a 5.1 system, surely there must be a market? Possibly not exactly what you are looking for, but Genelec has software for their DSP-speakers: http://www.genelec.com/learning-center/key-technologies/dsp-monitoring-systems/autocal/ http://www.genelec.com/products/glm/ I think they also have an IPhone (or similar) app for simple adjustment of a stereo pair, toeing-in etc. I just cannot find it now. Or it may be a third party application. - - - And a very old thing that relates to the subject comes to mind. AGM Digital had an A-format microphone. The processing unit had support for additional mono microphones. It automatically adjusted the delay for the spot mikes. Or - was this just a plan, cannot remember. The hard- and software might have been made by Chris Richards. But as said, this was for recording, not playback. Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration
Here: SpeakerAngle http://www.audioappsstore.com/ Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration
There is still a little time - James Moorer wrote in his paper "Audio in the New Millennium" (JAES 2000): "In 2020 loudspeakers will know where they are". I suppose the other point to make is that those billions of people are blissfully unaware that a 5.1 system is "difficult to set up". It just takes approximately three times as long to set up as a stereo system. An approximately surround arrangement, furniture permitting, seems to work splendidly, given the nature of the majority of film soundtracks. Richard Dobson On 26/09/2013 05:14, David Worrall wrote: Hi David, Thanks for your considered response. I _was_ actually thinking of it autolocating the speakers. And not necessarily just for ambisonics, actually. Some sort of a spectrum analyser/preamplifier device that derived the correct decode/gain controls of the real system acccording to the actual location of the loudspeakers, decode algorithm and your preferred listening spot ... and that self-callibrated each time you turned the system on. Given how difficult it seems to be for billions of people to set up a 5.1 system, surely there must be a market? I'm actually surprised that such a device doesn't already exist. Oh well, back to the stone-age method... ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration
Why waiting until 2020? It should be possible with available technologies. A Kinect camera (or two spaced cameras) could be used to detect the positions of the speakers from the listener's point of view, then the same Kinect could be placed in front of the listener to report its listening position. -- Marc Richard Dobson a écrit : > There is still a little time - James Moorer wrote in his paper "Audio > in the New Millennium" (JAES 2000): > > "In 2020 loudspeakers will know where they are". > > I suppose the other point to make is that those billions of people > are blissfully unaware that a 5.1 system is "difficult to set up". It > just takes approximately three times as long to set up as a stereo > system. An approximately surround arrangement, furniture permitting, > seems to work splendidly, given the nature of the majority of film > soundtracks. > > Richard Dobson > > > > On 26/09/2013 05:14, David Worrall wrote: > > Hi David, > > > > Thanks for your considered response. > > > > I _was_ actually thinking of it autolocating the speakers. And not > > necessarily just for ambisonics, actually. Some sort of a spectrum > > analyser/preamplifier device that derived the correct decode/gain > > controls of the real system acccording to the actual location of the > > loudspeakers, decode algorithm and your preferred listening spot ... > > and that self-callibrated each time you turned the system on. > > > > Given how difficult it seems to be for billions of people to set up > > a 5.1 system, surely there must be a market? > > > > I'm actually surprised that such a device doesn't already exist. Oh > > well, back to the stone-age method... > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
On 09/26/2013 09:21 AM, Kan Kaban wrote: Greetings to all Sursound list. First of all, thanks for all this years supporting Ambisonics. We´re a collective of audiovisual artists preparing for our next project. We have been researching ambisonics for the last few moths, seeding the possibility of it´s implementation. There are still some concerns regarding workflow. Our initial idea is to keep signals / conversions into the analogue domain. erm? For example, analogue panners. I´ve stepped with very few B-format ideas on the internet, so I was wondering if there´s a case considering simple A-format panners, before AB converters. This eurorack module seems right for the task, right?: http://www.intellijel.com/eurorack-modules/planar/ "A-format" panning as you call it has nothing to do with ambisonics per se, and the term frankly doesn't make much sense. the module you mention is a simple amplitude panner. so for your purposes, you might want to look into amplitude panning. but this has none of the characteristics of ambisonics. But height information?. Are B-format panners somehow better? We know of the multiple ambisonics ITB plugins available, but again, we love ancient analogue qualities. Any info will be very appreciated, we´re really exited about this & will love to share the results somewhere in the near future. Best regards. Gino. for height, you will need vbap, and it's totally insane to even consider doing this in analog (just think of the operation to find the three nearest speakers for a given direction). unless it's actually pain you love, in which case you've struck a gold mine. now you _could_ implement an ambisonic with-height b-format panner in analog. likewise, i could have faxed you my reply in 2's complement, and you could have OCR'ed it back into your computer. it's needlessly complicated, a waste of resources, and unless the equipment is constantly being re-calibrated to perfect accuracy, the result will be so full of errors that it's pretty much pointless. -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration
The point of that paper (as I read it, anyway) was not whether the technologies may or may not be available in 2020, but that they would be established and embedded such they they are almost routine, barely noticeable. In the way, for example, that taking a picture using your mobile phone is now routine. It just involves pressing a button. No special (and possibly expensive and otherwise superfluous) kit needs to be attached. You have a speaker which has an "intelligent" connection to the amp or player, and they talk to each other. You unpack the speakers, plug them in, and press a button. Maybe you won't even need to do that much. And, it has to be ~standard~ so that any player can talk with any speaker. Richard Dobson On 26/09/2013 12:50, Marc Lavallée wrote: Why waiting until 2020? It should be possible with available technologies. A Kinect camera (or two spaced cameras) could be used to detect the positions of the speakers from the listener's point of view, then the same Kinect could be placed in front of the listener to report its listening position. -- Marc Richard Dobson a écrit : There is still a little time - James Moorer wrote in his paper "Audio in the New Millennium" (JAES 2000): "In 2020 loudspeakers will know where they are". ... ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration
Hi, There has been many commercial products for 5.1 based on the notion of self-calibration. The idea that you hold a set-up microphone supplied by the manufacturer at the listening position and then each speaker generates a noise burst/tone/sweep in turn thereby determining distance from listening position and level for phase alignment and frequency dependent gain compensation respectively. See for example http://www.sony.co.uk/product/hcs-home-cinema-receiver/str-dn1030/technical-specifications#tab Best, Gavin On 26 September 2013 05:14, David Worrall wrote: > Hi David, > > Thanks for your considered response. > > I _was_ actually thinking of it autolocating the speakers. And not > necessarily just for ambisonics, actually. Some sort of a spectrum > analyser/preamplifier device that derived the correct decode/gain controls > of the real system acccording to the actual location of the loudspeakers, > decode algorithm and your preferred listening spot ... and that > self-callibrated each time you turned the system on. > > Given how difficult it seems to be for billions of people to set up a 5.1 > system, surely there must be a market? > > I'm actually surprised that such a device doesn't already exist. > Oh well, back to the stone-age method... > > David > On 23/09/2013, at 9:33 PM, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > Hi, > > > >> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 21:50:00 +0200 > >> From: David Worrall > >> To: Surround Sound discussion group > >> > >> Hi All, > >> I'm away from my back-up of this list (*) so please forgive if this has > been answered before, but > >> > >> Is there - on the market, or in other form - a setup system/tool that > auto configures a decoder and calibrates an ambisonic playback rig > according to the (actual) position of the loudspeakers? > >> > >> thanks, > >> David > > > > Presumably it doesn't have to auto-locate the speakers ?? That would be > clever and probably expensive. > > > > I have something that was built in MAX/MSP, and can turn it into an > application (Mac OS preferred but Windows is probably possible). It is > first order only, up to 16 speakers, and based on all the info about good > decoders I've found, and can understand and implement. Of course it could > be extended to higher orders, once the maths is thought through and the > issue of different kinds of W. > > > > Haven't done this as most of the people I'm dealing with don't have > enough speakers to make it worthwhile or essential. It's basically part of > something else which is trying to do all sorts of ambisonic things with 16 > inputs from a DAW running on the same computer. So, until higher powered > computers become affordable in an income challenged age, processing power > has to be carefully used. Increasing the ambisonic order starts to push up > the number of audio streams that need handling in a non-linear manner. Such > a decoder needs listening to, which means that you have to able to generate > something to listen to to assess how well the encode/decode works, > something I haven't had time to do above 2nd order. > > > > If only there was more time, things got done quicker, or someone was > paying for the work by the hour. > > > > Ciao, > > > > Dave Hunt > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > > > > > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20130926/3ad4f0bf/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > -- Gavin Kearney PhD, Lecturer in Sound Design Department of Theatre, Film and Television The University of York East Campus, Baird Lane York YO10 5GB, UK Tel: +44 (0)1904 32 5245 Fax: +44 (0)1904 32 5221 http://www.york.ac.uk/tftv/ http://www.york.ac.uk/tftv/staff/gavin-kearney/ EMAIL DISCLAIMER http://www.york.ac.uk/docs/disclaimer/email.htm -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20130926/9683ebf6/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration
> And, it has to be ~standard~ so that any player can talk > with any speaker. > > Richard Dobson > An interesting idea ( ... patents ... ) Ma daughter had to spend the last afternoon before a foreign trip driving into 'th big city' to get a new charger cable for her iPhone-Y, because she couldn't borrow the cable off her sister's iPhone-X because they are totally different. I usually joke to the children: Imagine if each manufacturer of car fitted a unique caravan/trailer connection. I seem to be out-of-date ... some manufacturers change* the coupling with each year's model. Michael *and customers put up with it. . . ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
[Sursound] Pickup pattern pictures?
Can anyone point me to some good images (that I can reprint) of Ambisonic mic pickup patterns? I need some for a little EDN article I'm writing. Thanks! Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration
The distance measurement is obviously more precise when using microphones. One camera could be used to find the speaker angles (relative to the listening position). Gavin Kearney a écrit : > Hi, > There has been many commercial products for 5.1 based on the notion of > self-calibration. > The idea that you hold a set-up microphone supplied by the > manufacturer at the listening position and then each speaker > generates a noise burst/tone/sweep in turn thereby determining > distance from listening position and level for phase alignment and > frequency dependent gain compensation respectively. > > See for example > http://www.sony.co.uk/product/hcs-home-cinema-receiver/str-dn1030/technical-specifications#tab > > Best, > Gavin > > > On 26 September 2013 05:14, David Worrall > wrote: > > > Hi David, > > > > Thanks for your considered response. > > > > I _was_ actually thinking of it autolocating the speakers. And not > > necessarily just for ambisonics, actually. Some sort of a spectrum > > analyser/preamplifier device that derived the correct decode/gain > > controls of the real system acccording to the actual location of > > the loudspeakers, decode algorithm and your preferred listening > > spot ... and that self-callibrated each time you turned the system > > on. > > > > Given how difficult it seems to be for billions of people to set up > > a 5.1 system, surely there must be a market? > > > > I'm actually surprised that such a device doesn't already exist. > > Oh well, back to the stone-age method... > > > > David > > On 23/09/2013, at 9:33 PM, Dave Hunt wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > >> Date: Thu, 19 Sep 2013 21:50:00 +0200 > > >> From: David Worrall > > >> To: Surround Sound discussion group > > >> > > >> Hi All, > > >> I'm away from my back-up of this list (*) so please forgive if > > >> this has > > been answered before, but > > >> > > >> Is there - on the market, or in other form - a setup system/tool > > >> that > > auto configures a decoder and calibrates an ambisonic playback rig > > according to the (actual) position of the loudspeakers? > > >> > > >> thanks, > > >> David > > > > > > Presumably it doesn't have to auto-locate the speakers ?? That > > > would be > > clever and probably expensive. > > > > > > I have something that was built in MAX/MSP, and can turn it into > > > an > > application (Mac OS preferred but Windows is probably possible). It > > is first order only, up to 16 speakers, and based on all the info > > about good decoders I've found, and can understand and implement. > > Of course it could be extended to higher orders, once the maths is > > thought through and the issue of different kinds of W. > > > > > > Haven't done this as most of the people I'm dealing with don't > > > have > > enough speakers to make it worthwhile or essential. It's basically > > part of something else which is trying to do all sorts of ambisonic > > things with 16 inputs from a DAW running on the same computer. So, > > until higher powered computers become affordable in an income > > challenged age, processing power has to be carefully used. > > Increasing the ambisonic order starts to push up the number of > > audio streams that need handling in a non-linear manner. Such a > > decoder needs listening to, which means that you have to able to > > generate something to listen to to assess how well the > > encode/decode works, something I haven't had time to do above 2nd > > order. > > > > > > If only there was more time, things got done quicker, or someone > > > was > > paying for the work by the hour. > > > > > > Ciao, > > > > > > Dave Hunt > > > ___ > > > Sursound mailing list > > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > > > > > > > > > > > -- next part -- > > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > > URL: < > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20130926/3ad4f0bf/attachment.html > > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > > > > ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
[Sursound] Archives of Electric Spring Festival
Dear all Sorry for cross-posting but I am very happy that we finally released the archives of the festival Monty Adkins and I have been running for a certain time now… the new edition will have stunning stuff too, but it is too early to announce, so in the meantime, feel free to visit our freshly published archives! http://archives.electricspring.co.uk Feel free to send feedback! pa ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] , ambi playback configution and calibration
Not specifically Ambisonic, but Trinnov has technology for automatically tuning a surround setup. I recall them using it during the "with height" demo sessions at Recombinant Media Labs during the 2006 AES convention in San Francisco. http://www.trinnov.com/technologies/loudspeaker-room-optimization/concept-6/ AES paper at http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=13091 It is incorporated into the Sherwood R-972, which comes with a tetrahedral mic array. There is a manual at http://www.cahoyt.com/Trinnov/R972Trinnov.pdf Andrew Kimpel set up a horizontal hexagon for ambisonic playback using one of these at a recent Bay Area Immersive Audio Meetup. It sounded quite good. Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com) Menlo Park, CA US -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20130926/7c15d71d/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
Thanks for your reply Jörn. You´ll have to excuse my basic english sentences, as it´s not my primary language. > "A-format" panning as you call it has nothing to do with ambisonics per se, > and the term frankly doesn't make much sense. > the module you mention is a simple amplitude panner. > > so for your purposes, you might want to look into amplitude panning. > but this has none of the characteristics of ambisonics. Yes, I know there´s no ambisonics until there is. The idea of amplitude panning, during A format stage, is to simplify an analogue path before b-format exists. Without plugins while possible. Soundfield B-format to 5.1 / 7.1 converter (http://www.soundfield.com/products/sp451.php) is actually hardware, so it seems interesting to make analogue panners (anywhere, amplitude or B signals) to keep audio into an analogue path like this: Quadraphonic (same to A-Format but without height?) keyboard or synth signals /// then an amplitude panner /// then the A to B converter /// then a B-format mixing stage /// the hole B-format mix to a Sounfield converter for 5.1 - 7.1 or anything else. > now you _could_ implement an ambisonic with-height b-format panner in analog. > likewise, i could have faxed you my reply in 2's complement, and you could > have OCR'ed it back into your computer. it's needlessly complicated, a waste > of resources, and unless the equipment is constantly being re-calibrated to > perfect accuracy, the result will be so full of errors that it's pretty much > pointless. Well, if there is some kind of B-format analogue panner we would also like to learn about it´s design, so we can actually see how pointless it is. The idea of panning quadraphonic packs seems easier to implement BEFORE an A to B converter. Does that exist?. I suppose something had to exist before DSP´s possibilities. Thanks again. Gino. El 26/09/2013, a las 7:01, Jörn Nettingsmeier escribió: > On 09/26/2013 09:21 AM, Kan Kaban wrote: >> Greetings to all Sursound list. >> >> First of all, thanks for all this years supporting Ambisonics. We´re >> a collective of audiovisual artists preparing for our next project. >> We have been researching ambisonics for the last few moths, seeding >> the possibility of it´s implementation. There are still some concerns >> regarding workflow. Our initial idea is to keep signals / conversions >> into the analogue domain. > > erm? > >> For example, analogue panners. I´ve stepped >> with very few B-format ideas on the internet, so I was wondering if >> there´s a case considering simple A-format panners, before AB >> converters. This eurorack module seems right for the task, right?: >> http://www.intellijel.com/eurorack-modules/planar/ > > "A-format" panning as you call it has nothing to do with ambisonics per se, > and the term frankly doesn't make much sense. > the module you mention is a simple amplitude panner. > > so for your purposes, you might want to look into amplitude panning. > but this has none of the characteristics of ambisonics. > >> But height >> information?. Are B-format panners somehow better? We know of the >> multiple ambisonics ITB plugins available, but again, we love ancient >> analogue qualities. Any info will be very appreciated, we´re really >> exited about this & will love to share the results somewhere in the >> near future. Best regards. Gino. > > for height, you will need vbap, and it's totally insane to even consider > doing this in analog (just think of the operation to find the three nearest > speakers for a given direction). > > unless it's actually pain you love, in which case you've struck a gold mine. > > now you _could_ implement an ambisonic with-height b-format panner in analog. > likewise, i could have faxed you my reply in 2's complement, and you could > have OCR'ed it back into your computer. it's needlessly complicated, a waste > of resources, and unless the equipment is constantly being re-calibrated to > perfect accuracy, the result will be so full of errors that it's pretty much > pointless. > > -- > Jörn Nettingsmeier > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > > Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) > Tonmeister VDT > > http://stackingdwarves.net > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
onic with-height b-format panner in > analog. likewise, i could have faxed you my reply in 2's complement, and > you could have OCR'ed it back into your computer. it's needlessly > complicated, a waste of resources, and unless the equipment is constantly > being re-calibrated to perfect accuracy, the result will be so full of > errors that it's pretty much pointless. > > > > -- > > Jörn Nettingsmeier > > Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 > > > > Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) > > Tonmeister VDT > > > > http://stackingdwarves.net > > > > ___ > > Sursound mailing list > > Sursound@music.vt.edu > > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound > -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20130926/e9a90d0f/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
Well, if there is some kind of B-format analogue panner we would also like to learn about it´s design Audio & Design sold a Pan-Rotate Unit. There is a picture of it down here: http://www.ambisonic.net/branwell_arb.html The Soundfield microphone directional controls aren't exactly panning. The Pan/Rotate had eight mono inputs, all of which could be panned 360 degrees horizontally. It also had a B-format input. Both the panned mono sources and the B-format input went through a so called Rotate control, which allowed the complete soundfield to be rotated around the listener. The Rotate part is soewhat similar to the Soundfield Controls. I have the Pan/Rotate schematic somewhere. I'll dig it out. It should be in the Motherlode, but possibly not renamed and has some strange filename. Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
If you have any kind of calibration involved, rotating before running the A to B process makes that calibration meaningless. In fact, I'd say that one of the main reasons B-format exists is precisely that it makes processing like rotations a reasonable and general thing to do. David McGriffy VVAudio On 9/26/2013 2:15 PM, Eero Aro wrote: Well, if there is some kind of B-format analogue panner we would also like to learn about it´s design ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
David McGriffy wrote: On 9/26/2013 2:15 PM, Eero Aro wrote: Well, if there is some kind of B-format analogue panner we would also like to learn about it´s design Wrong quote, I didn't write that. - - - However, here you are: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22100835/Audio_Design_Ambisonic%20Pan_Rotate_Unit_schematic_AD_1985.pdf https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22100835/Audio%20Design_Ambisonic%20mastering%20package_User%20Manual_date%20unknown.pdf https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22100835/Audio_Design%20Mastering%20package_AD_1984.pdf https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22100835/AD%20Pan%20Rotate%20Rear.jpg https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/22100835/AD%20Pan%20Rotate%20Front.jpg And the answer is no, I don't have the component values to the Pan/Rotate Unit. I do have the component values to the Audio & Design Transcoder and Decoder. Eero ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
On Thu, Sep 26, 2013 at 12:20:16PM -0500, Kan Kaban wrote: > Yes, I know there´s no ambisonics until there is. The idea of amplitude > panning, during A format stage, is to simplify an analogue path before > b-format exists. A-format panning means that the panner has to emulate the polar patterns of four directional microphones pointing in directions corresponding to the vertices of a tetraheder. While this is possible, it will be more complicated that panning directly into B-format, with no addded benefit at all. > Quadraphonic (same to A-Format but without height?) No, very different. > keyboard or synth signals /// then an amplitude panner /// > then the A to B converter Conventional amplitude panning followed by encoding to B-format does *not* produce valid Ambisonic signals. > Well, if there is some kind of B-format analogue panner we would > also like to learn about it´s design, so we can actually see how > pointless it is. Both A and B-format panning require gains proportional to sine and cosine of some argument. It's possible to create a passable sin/cos pair using conventional linear pots over a 90 degree range (even a stereo panner does that). But you'd need 360 degrees in this case. Which means either very expensive non-standard potentiometers, or some non-trivial processing on VCA control signals. > The idea of panning quadraphonic packs seems easier to implement > BEFORE an A to B converter. And is completely useless. Again, quadraphonics converted to B-format is *not* Ambisonics. There is a good reason why Ambisoncs was almost forgotten until digital audio processing became a commodity. It's just a pain to do in the analog domain. And that's for only first order. Anything higher order would be madness if not done digitally. Ciao, -- FA A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia. It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow) ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
hi all! re-reading my post, i notice that it could be construed as somewhat hostile in tone. this was unintended, and i'd like to apologise if anybody has taken offense. On 09/26/2013 02:01 PM, Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: On 09/26/2013 09:21 AM, Kan Kaban wrote: Our initial idea is to keep signals / conversions into the analogue domain. this remark probably triggered it - it feels as if you asked how to perform a triple salto while your "initial idea is to put your feet in a cubic yard of wet concrete and wait for it to set"... ;-D i have the utmost respect for the circuitry wizards who could do all this in analog electronics while i was busy waiting to be conceived. then again, i also had the questionable pleasure to work with a mark v soundfield processor that hadn't seen calibration and servicing in a loong while, and the behaviour of the controls and the system as a whole was somewhat erratic, to put it mildly. now i understand the mark v stems from the secular period of soundfield inc, a time where it was no longer graced by the wharfedale virgins and calrec wizards. even so, doing this in analog, today, for anything else than enacting a zen koan to enlighten apprentices, seems decidedly weird... all the best, jörn -- Jörn Nettingsmeier Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487 Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT http://stackingdwarves.net ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
Sorry Mr. McGriffy & Aero for the wrong quote, I don´t do lists since some years ago. Thanks a lot for all this info to everyone, I really appreciate your concern. Now I have a lot to do… I´m sorry if some ambisonics terminology is not being used as intended. I hope you understand. The idea of using a quadraphonic panner (previous to AB conversion, came from Mr. Gerzon´s paper: "A-format consists of four channels LB, LF, RF, RB compatible with existing ‘discrete’ practice for the four corner positions". Please correct me again, but I read that A-format is Lb / Lf /Rf / Rb. So seems logical & possible to me (sorry I that´s offending anyone) to use a quadraphonic panner before the AB converter. I suppose that´s not a full ambisonics panner, but at last will do the job as a starting point. Isn´t it?. Soundfield´s MKV looks beautiful & very interesting too. Regards, Gino. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20130926/fc64442b/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
Those are lovely photographs Eero (auto-correction changed your name), thank you. Maybe someday I´ll ask for those components values, when there´s enough time to solder them! > I do have the component values to the Audio & Design Transcoder and Decoder. > > Eero -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20130926/422b670b/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] [allowed] Re: A-format panner.
Reading through this thread I feel the other responses may not have given you a clear picture. There are lots of very capable Ambisonic practitioners on this list, but sometimes they forget that beginners may not understand the formal terminology (or the in-list banter). The simple answer is that you cannot manipulate a set of A-format signals and then convert them into B-format. A-format is simply a set of microphone signals with very precisely-known characteristics and from precisely-known directions (LFU, RFD, RBD, LBU - note the U (up) and D (down) components; it's not simply LF, RF, RB, LB). Normally the only possible manipulation of the A-format signals is correction for calibration differences between the microphones and compensation for the distance between the capsules if you are using a soundfield-type microphone; this manipulation is done to the A-format signals to improve the A-format to B-format conversion. The Ambisonic signal as such exists as the B-format data. In this form only it can be rotated, focussed, made to behave like sets of virtual microphones of different character, etc. Nowadays this is much more easily done in the digital domain rather than by analogue mixing. But the A-format signals are not an analog of quadrophonic signals; if you mix/rotate the A-format signals before converting them into B-format what you will end up with is a set of signals that _cannot ever_ be converted into Ambisonic B-format. To attempt to do so just doesn't make any sense. OK, I've simplified things a little in this explanation; the more scientific- or mathematically-minded list members will probably burn me in effigy for heresy. ;-) But I think you needed a simpler, more direct explanation than you had got before now. Gerard Lardner On 26/09/2013 23:22, Kan Kaban wrote: Sorry Mr. McGriffy & Aero for the wrong quote, I don´t do lists since some years ago. Thanks a lot for all this info to everyone, I really appreciate your concern. Now I have a lot to do... I´m sorry if some ambisonics terminology is not being used as intended. I hope you understand. The idea of using a quadraphonic panner (previous to AB conversion, came from Mr. Gerzon´s paper: "A-format consists of four channels LB, LF, RF, RB compatible with existing 'discrete' practice for the four corner positions". Please correct me again, but I read that A-format is Lb / Lf /Rf / Rb. So seems logical & possible to me (sorry I that´s offending anyone) to use a quadraphonic panner before the AB converter. I suppose that´s not a full ambisonics panner, but at last will do the job as a starting point. Isn´t it?. Soundfield´s MKV looks beautiful & very interesting too. Regards, Gino. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20130926/fc64442b/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20130927/d3ea9ce4/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
Mathematically, _if_ you have a perfect A-format signal set (from some theoretical tetrahedral mic) then it can be panned. For the _simple_ case of a yaw of X degrees, then A' = ( A(1+cosX) + B(-sinX) + C(sinX) + D(1-cosX) ) /2 B' = ... etc. _I_think_ (this was very quick on the back of an envelope!). Practically, I agree with the previous comments ... in summary one is just digging a big hole (with or without wet cement). Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
Re: [Sursound] A-format panner.
> > Mathematically, > _if_ you have a perfect A-format signal set (from some theoretical > tetrahedral mic) then it can be panned. > For the _simple_ case of a yaw of X degrees, then > A' = ( A(1+cosX) + B(-sinX) + C(sinX) + D(1-cosX) ) /2 > B' = ... > etc. > _I_think_ (this was very quick on the back of an envelope!). > Taking the message about jumping in the deep end ... for comparison, to yaw (A degrees) in B-format (IIRC) is the relatively simple: W' = W X' = X.cosA - Y.sinA Y' = X.sinA + Y.cosA Z' = Z Michael ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound
