[sage-edu] Creating a collaborative version of Sage
Anyone interested in discussing a collaborative version of Sage? I am a math teacher and technology coordinator for 6-8 students. I see HUGE potential for Sage to become more of a collaborative environment between a teacher and students and between students. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 9:00 AM, John Faig wrote: > > Anyone interested in discussing a collaborative version of Sage? I am > a math teacher and technology coordinator for 6-8 students. I see > HUGE potential for Sage to become more of a collaborative environment > between a teacher and students and between students. > Sounds interesting. Can you be more specific? Also, by "6-8 students" do you mean "6th-8th grade students in the US"? > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
David, I teach grades 6-8 in the US. Effective teaching combines coaching, projects, collaboration, personal interests and lots of feedback. My vision is to add collaboration features so that Sage become more of a math environment for students. This means a few things: 1. Improve the interface so that students can explore more easily. This could be a dropdown box that lists all mathematical operations by concept. For example, there could be an "arithmetic group" with add, subtract, multiply and divide. There could be a "change representation" to convert among percents, decimals, fractions, and scientific notation. There could be a "circle" group with "calculate radius", "calculate area", "calculate circumference", etc. The "circle" calculations would only work if students have defined the necessary variable. Lastly, I envision a library of formal definitions. 2. One form of collaboration could be a built-in chat (audio or text) so that students can work together on problems. Students can chat with fellow students. The teacher sees all the chats to make sure that students are on task. The chats will also shed light on areas where students are confused. Sometimes, the teacher may shutoff the chat - possibly for an exam. The teacher may setup a chat between a student who understands a concept and a student who is struggling. 3. Math calculations can be saved in a "personal notebook". Students can annotate and reflect on what they did. Students can also submit a "personal notebook" to the teacher. Students could share a "personal notebook" with a fellow student so that they can compare different ways to solve problems. The teacher may want to provide a partially completed calculation or an incorrect calculation and ask students to fix it. Teachers could also provide a generic problem template and students "fill in" the numbers based on personal interests. 4. Thinking back to the operation "lists" in comment #1 above. The teacher could disable operations from time to time to force students to do manual calculations. 5. I think that it would be beneficial to have different modes so students can easily move between tables, graphs, and symbolic representations. 6. The math environment could be used between schools and between grades where a higher level teaches a lower level. Hope this helps. I have a vision in my head and this was a bit of a stream of consciousness. Thanks in advance for any thoughts! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
Hi John, On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 12:04 AM, John Faig wrote: > Hope this helps. I have a vision in my head and this was a bit of a > stream of consciousness. > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts! I'm administering a Moodle class. My experience of Moodle so far is pretty good. I've heard of WebWork, but have never used it. A few months ago, I planned to integrate Sage with Moodle. It would be some kind of package that allows Moodle to use the maths capabilities of Sage. Alas, it never materialized because I haven't the time to implement. I can see lots of potential between Moodle and Sage. -- Regards Minh Van Nguyen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 10:04 AM, John Faig wrote: > > David, > ... > > 1. Improve the interface so that students can explore more easily. > This could be a dropdown box that lists all mathematical operations > by concept. For example, there could be an "arithmetic group" with > add, subtract, multiply and divide. There could be a "change > representation" to convert among percents, decimals, fractions, and > scientific notation. There could be a "circle" group with "calculate > radius", "calculate area", "calculate circumference", etc. The > "circle" calculations would only work if students have defined the > necessary variable. Lastly, I envision a library of formal > definitions. This sounds like a much expanded form of a help system? I wonder if a javascript form of a "tutorail for middle schoolers" could be created and then run separately in another tab of the notebook FF browser? Run Sage in one tab, the interactive explore MS tutorial in another? > > 2. One form of collaboration could be a built-in chat (audio or text) > so that students can work together on problems. Students can chat > with fellow students. The teacher sees all the chats to make sure > that students are on task. The chats will also shed light on areas > where students are confused. Sometimes, the teacher may shutoff the > chat - possibly for an exam. The teacher may setup a chat between a > student who understands a concept and a student who is struggling. I know 0 about chat but I wonder again if this could be run in another tab of the firefox brower? Sage in one tab, the interactive help in another, and google chat (or something) in a third. There seems to be a firefox plugin for a lot of things, if you can't use google chat maybe there is a plugin for some other kind? > > 3. Math calculations can be saved in a "personal notebook". Students > can annotate and reflect on what they did. Students can also submit a > "personal notebook" to the teacher. Students could share a "personal > notebook" with a fellow student so that they can compare different > ways to solve problems. The teacher may want to provide a partially > completed calculation or an incorrect calculation and ask students to > fix it. Teachers could also provide a generic problem template and > students "fill in" the numbers based on personal interests. I don't see how this is different from what is already available. Maybe I'm not understanding the idea (caveat: I very rarely use the notebook). > > 4. Thinking back to the operation "lists" in comment #1 above. The > teacher could disable operations from time to time to force students > to do manual calculations. I can't think of a way to do that offhand, except to try to design the assigned worksheet to be part manual and part computational. > > 5. I think that it would be beneficial to have different modes so > students can easily move between tables, graphs, and symbolic > representations. I'm not sure if I understand what this means. IN any case, at the moment, Sage does not have a nice "gui" for creating a table, eg as in entering data into a spreadsheet-like form. > > Hope this helps. I have a vision in my head and this was a bit of a > stream of consciousness. > > Thanks in advance for any thoughts! I think Minh's idea to explore implementing your ideas using a moodle-Sage interface is definitely worth exploring. Please write back if you fine any good solutions to your ideas! > > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
John Faig a écrit : > Anyone interested in discussing a collaborative version of Sage? I am > a math teacher and technology coordinator for 6-8 students. I see > HUGE potential for Sage to become more of a collaborative environment > between a teacher and students and between students. > > --~--~ Hello, I am *very* interested. I am supposed to start a Sage server for *all* the undergraduate students of my University (at least those learning maths and computer sciences or physics). My contribution is very small: add ldap identification, run a server on 3 "large" machines. Yours t.d. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~--- begin:vcard fn:Thierry Dumont n:Dumont;Thierry org;quoted-printable;quoted-printable:Universit=C3=A9 Lyon 1 & CNRS.;Institut Camille Jordan -- Math=C3=A9matiques / Mathematics. adr:;;43 Bd du 11 Novembre.;Villeurbanne;;69621;France email;internet:tdum...@math.univ-lyon1.fr title;quoted-printable:Ing=C3=A9nieur de Recherche / Research Engineer. tel;work:04 72 44 85 23. tel;fax:04 72 44 80 53 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://math.univ-lyon1.fr/~tdumont version:2.1 end:vcard
[sage-edu] log(x) versus ln(x)
Hi, One nuisance in mathematics is the "ln(x)" notation for natural logarithms by students up to a certain age, followed by the "log(x)" notation used for exactly the same thing after a certain age. So I've always taken great pride that in Sage (and most other math software), "log" is the right grown up thing. So imagine how annoyed I was just now to find in Sage-4.1.1 that: sage: latex(log(x)) \ln\left(x\right) What the heck is up with that typesetting as "ln"? Besides being annoying, this is inconsistent because log(x) prints as "log(x)" in sage. sage: log(x) log(x) Does anybody mind if this gets changed back? I'm guessing it was introduced by accident because of Pynac somehow during the symbolic switchover, but maybe there is something more to it that I missed? -- William -- William Stein Associate Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: log(x) versus ln(x)
On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 4:47 PM, William Stein wrote: > > Hi, > ... > > sage: latex(log(x)) > \ln\left(x\right) > > What the heck is up with that typesetting as "ln"? > > Besides being annoying, this is inconsistent because log(x) prints as > "log(x)" in sage. > > sage: log(x) > log(x) > > Does anybody mind if this gets changed back? I'm guessing it was Sounds good to me. > > -- William > > > > -- > William Stein > Associate Professor of Mathematics > University of Washington > http://wstein.org > > > > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 10:29 AM, David Joyner wrote: > On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 10:04 AM, John Faig wrote: >> >> David, >> > > ... > >> >> 1. Improve the interface so that students can explore more easily. >> This could be a dropdown box that lists all mathematical operations >> by concept. For example, there could be an "arithmetic group" with >> add, subtract, multiply and divide. There could be a "change >> representation" to convert among percents, decimals, fractions, and >> scientific notation. There could be a "circle" group with "calculate >> radius", "calculate area", "calculate circumference", etc. The >> "circle" calculations would only work if students have defined the >> necessary variable. Lastly, I envision a library of formal >> definitions. > > > This sounds like a much expanded form of a help system? I wonder if a > javascript form of a "tutorail for middle schoolers" could be created > and then run > separately in another tab of the notebook FF browser? Run Sage in one tab, > the interactive explore MS tutorial in another? > > > This FF toolbar for blender reminds me of what you want (for Blender, rather than for Sage). It is installed separately from Blender but provides a nice some interface to some functionality Blender has. I wonder how hard it would be to create a Sage toolbar? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
Minh, > I'm administering a Moodle class. My experience of Moodle so far is > pretty good. I've heard of WebWork, but have never used it. A few > months ago, I planned to integrate Sage with Moodle. It would be some > kind of package that allows Moodle to use the maths capabilities of > Sage. Alas, it never materialized because I haven't the time to > implement. I can see lots of potential between Moodle and Sage. I like the idea of exploring a Sage Moodle connection. I am not familiar with WebWork. After a search, it looks like a GUI framework for Java. I am a bit rusty at programming and don't relish writing the code to integrate with Sage and/or Moodle. Below is a link to Moodle documentation that discusses Sage integration: http://docs.moodle.org/en/Algebra_question_type --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
Hi John, On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:30 AM, John Faig wrote: > > Below is a link to > Moodle documentation that discusses Sage integration: > > http://docs.moodle.org/en/Algebra_question_type Thank you for the link. Two more threads from Moodle: http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=99401 http://moodle.org/mod/forum/discuss.php?d=98670 And two Sage threads: http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/ef032c7de99ce31d/6496283d8b3bed0a http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu/browse_thread/thread/d386d1e95f59ce07 -- Regards Minh Van Nguyen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
David, Thanks for the thoughts. I like your idea of using additional tabs or a toolbar. My idea of math operations could be implemented in a toolbar that sends code to a Sage session. Although it is a UI issue, I think it important for students to see the whole universe of possible operations and let them try them. Over time, they will understand when to use each one. The "personal notebook" is a way for students to store and share the steps they use to solve a math problem. After playing with Sage a bit more, I think that it can save sessions. > I can't think of a way to do that offhand, except to try to design the > assigned worksheet to be part manual and part computational. The problem with Sage is that it is a very powerful symbolic calculator. In order to be more of a learning tool, I would like the teacher to be able to disable certain operations. This way, the teacher can make sure that the basic skills are not deteriorating with such a powerful tool. This is probably best handled in the session file I mentioned above. The file contains a transcript of everything that was typed during a Sage session. Maybe with some modifications, the file could also contain a list of operations that are valid. If a student tries an operation that was disabled, then they must do it manually. > > 5. I think that it would be beneficial to have different modes so > > students can easily move between tables, graphs, and symbolic > > representations. > > I'm not sure if I understand what this means. IN any case, at the moment, > Sage does not have a nice "gui" for creating a table, eg as in entering > data into a spreadsheet-like form. > Maybe we could use your previous idea about multiple tabs and send the data from the Sage tab to a tab that can graph it. This could also be handled by your other excellent idea - - the toolbar. Let's keep the conversation going. My big worry is that I am long ideas and short on coding skills. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 11:52 AM, John Faig wrote: > > Let's keep the conversation going. My big worry is that I am long > ideas and short on coding skills. Another worry on my part: little time to devote to such projects. -- Regards Minh Van Nguyen --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
Thierry, > Hello, > I am *very* interested. I am supposed to start a Sage server for *all* > the undergraduate students of my University (at least those learning > maths and computer sciences or physics). My contribution is very small: > add ldap identification, run a server on 3 "large" machines. Your contribution could be huge if you could manage to install Moodle and understand the Moodle/Sage integration. I did a search and it seemed like there was relatively little commentary in this area. JDF --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
David, > This FF toolbar for blender reminds me of what you want (for Blender, rather > than for Sage). It is installed separately from Blender but provides a nice > some interface to some functionality Blender has. I wonder how hard it > would be to > create a Sage toolbar? I may have responded to this in your earlier post. I LOVE the idea of a mutli-tab browser environment and a toolbar to handle the integration. The key issue is it harder to write more code on top of Sage or a FF toolbar that sends commands to Sage? JDF --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[sage-edu] Re: Creating a collaborative version of Sage
On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 6:56 PM, John Faig wrote: > > Thierry, > >> Hello, >> I am *very* interested. I am supposed to start a Sage server for *all* >> the undergraduate students of my University (at least those learning >> maths and computer sciences or physics). My contribution is very small: >> add ldap identification, run a server on 3 "large" machines. > > Your contribution could be huge if you could manage to install Moodle > and understand the Moodle/Sage integration. I did a search and it > seemed like there was relatively little commentary in this area. > Nobody has done anything here, as far as I can tell. Regarding WebWork, you said " I am not familiar with WebWork. After a search, it looks like a GUI framework for Java." I think you may have a completely different program called WebWork. The one he was talking about that involves homework over the web is here: http://webwork.maa.org/wiki/Main_Page Or here: http://webwork.maa.org/moodle/ It is very confusing to find via google. William --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-edu" group. To post to this group, send email to sage-edu@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to sage-edu+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-edu?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
