Re: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps?

[Will White]

Jerry,

I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing inspections it's
easy to find connectors that are under torqued but I haven't heard of a
reliable way to check for over torque.

Thanks,
Will

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 1:34 AM Jerry Shafer 
wrote:

> 1/4" x 20 is no more the 10 ftlbs (120 inlbs) and a good 1/4" impact
> should be able to get you over 30 ftlb. When you overtorq bolts and nuts
> you put undue and irreversible stretching and or tearing of the material
> not to mention warping or bending of the plates, and rails, loosening and
> retorqing is a wait as if damage is done its done, the best solution is to
> replace all the stressed hardware. I have seen unirac "T" bolts crack the
> the rails with a bad result, so the question is how far do you want to dig
> and risk to take. Regarding cracked glass, I have only seen this with
> incorrect use of the clamps but over torqing will also crush the frames. I
> have inspected arrays after high wind events that resulted in destruction
> of the array and the manufacture in all cases used over torq as thier out
> so warranty are only as good as the installers.
> Jerry
> NABCEP PV inspector
>
> On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 8:56 PM Corey Shalanski  wrote:
>
>> August,
>>
>> Thanks for your feedback.The racking model is EcoFoot2+
>>  by Ecolibrium Solar (now
>> part of Unirac). These module clamps are also self-grounding with teeth to
>> bite into the module frame. I reached out to the manufacturer, who
>> confirmed that the clamp material is aluminum extrusion and the hardware is
>> stainless steel.
>>
>> The modules were installed about 2 weeks ago, so not very much time has
>> elapsed to be able to observe potential resultant damage. We haven't seen
>> any problems so far.
>>
>> --
>> Corey
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 6:35 AM August Goers  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Corey -
>>>
>>> For many years we used Pro Solar racking and Unirac Solarmount and
>>> tightened the clamps with impact drivers. At some point maybe roughly 8
>>> years ago, Unirac switched its mid clamps to stainless steel self grounding
>>> clamps with teeth to bite into the module frame. We continued to use
>>> impacts with no issue. Then, starting around 4 years ago, we started to
>>> have module glass failures with our SunPower commercial systems and these
>>> Unirac clamps. We immediately switched to torque wrenches for tightening
>>> the clamps. However, the failures continued. My guess is that the poor
>>> design of the Unirac mid clamps in conjunction with thinner “weaker” module
>>> frames exasperated the issue. We now have stopped using those mid clamps
>>> and continue to hand tighten all clamps. We primarily install SunPower, and
>>> their residential module frames have a lip so all the pressure from the
>>> clamp doesn’t go to the glass.
>>>
>>> Getting to your question - what kind of mid clamps do you have? If they
>>> are aluminum, there may be less risk than the stainless clamps. I would be
>>> worried that the process of loosening and then re-tightening might cause
>>> more damage than good if there aren’t any problems that have occurred to
>>> date. It’s a good question.
>>>
>>> August
>>> Luminalt
>>>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Honda 3000i low ac output

[RE Ellison]

I use the HarborFreight inverter generators and have had no problem at all with 
any of the magnums charging from them

Can’t say about the Honda but there’s something strange there obviously

Bob

> On Sep 4, 2021, at 2:39 PM, Dan Fink  wrote:
> 
> John; I have dealt with similar issues off-grid with the Honda 3000i "cubes," 
> one client is in northern BC Canada and the 2 sites are only accessible by 
> helicopter and float plane. So taking them to a local Honda PE shop is an 
> expensive proposition!
> 
> Before replacing the (super expensive) inverter, try these steps:
> Unplug all the (numerous) white Molex wire connectors inside one at a time, 
> clean the contacts with a wire brush, treat with anti-ox and replug.
> Check all those wire harnesses for chafing and worn-through insulation.
> Open the inverter, and check the wiring inside the aluminum case for chafing 
> against the case. I believe this is a common failure area.
> If those don't help, get the 3000i shop manual, it has a very thorough 
> troubleshooting section, and:
> There's an internal 6-pin plug under the throttle control where you can read 
> the stator voltage, rotor voltage, etc. 
> Hopefully it's something simple!
> 
> The one Honda 3000i problem I was never able to solve was Magnum MMS 
> inverters not accepting the AC input from the 3000i. We had similar systems 
> at 2 camps, and tried both inverters with both generators (had to swap via 
> heli of course) and it ended up as Magnum saying it's Honda's problem, and 
> Honda saying it's Magnum's problem.
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Dan Fink
> Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
> IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
> NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
> NABCEP PV Associate
> danbo...@gmail.com
> 970-672-4342
> 
>  
> 
> 
>> On Sat, Sep 4, 2021 at 8:41 AM John Blittersdorf 
>>  wrote:
>> I have a Honda 3000i for my off grid system that shows 84 vac output.  I 
>> suspect that the inverter is failing.  Just checking to see if any of you 
>> have seen this failure mode?
>> 
>> John Blittersdorf
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps?

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Per request from Unirac I cut sections off and sent it back to unirac and
they say that modules that did not come loose we over tightened, they do
something like magaflux on iron, they could see fractures in the rails,
aluminum cracks when bent where steel is bending.
Jerry


On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 4:30 AM Will White  wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing inspections it's
> easy to find connectors that are under torqued but I haven't heard of a
> reliable way to check for over torque.
>
> Thanks,
> Will
>
> On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 1:34 AM Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
>> 1/4" x 20 is no more the 10 ftlbs (120 inlbs) and a good 1/4" impact
>> should be able to get you over 30 ftlb. When you overtorq bolts and nuts
>> you put undue and irreversible stretching and or tearing of the material
>> not to mention warping or bending of the plates, and rails, loosening and
>> retorqing is a wait as if damage is done its done, the best solution is to
>> replace all the stressed hardware. I have seen unirac "T" bolts crack the
>> the rails with a bad result, so the question is how far do you want to dig
>> and risk to take. Regarding cracked glass, I have only seen this with
>> incorrect use of the clamps but over torqing will also crush the frames. I
>> have inspected arrays after high wind events that resulted in destruction
>> of the array and the manufacture in all cases used over torq as thier out
>> so warranty are only as good as the installers.
>> Jerry
>> NABCEP PV inspector
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 8:56 PM Corey Shalanski  wrote:
>>
>>> August,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your feedback.The racking model is EcoFoot2+
>>>  by Ecolibrium Solar (now
>>> part of Unirac). These module clamps are also self-grounding with teeth to
>>> bite into the module frame. I reached out to the manufacturer, who
>>> confirmed that the clamp material is aluminum extrusion and the hardware is
>>> stainless steel.
>>>
>>> The modules were installed about 2 weeks ago, so not very much time has
>>> elapsed to be able to observe potential resultant damage. We haven't seen
>>> any problems so far.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Corey
>>>
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 6:35 AM August Goers  wrote:
>>>

 Hi Corey -

 For many years we used Pro Solar racking and Unirac Solarmount and
 tightened the clamps with impact drivers. At some point maybe roughly 8
 years ago, Unirac switched its mid clamps to stainless steel self grounding
 clamps with teeth to bite into the module frame. We continued to use
 impacts with no issue. Then, starting around 4 years ago, we started to
 have module glass failures with our SunPower commercial systems and these
 Unirac clamps. We immediately switched to torque wrenches for tightening
 the clamps. However, the failures continued. My guess is that the poor
 design of the Unirac mid clamps in conjunction with thinner “weaker” module
 frames exasperated the issue. We now have stopped using those mid clamps
 and continue to hand tighten all clamps. We primarily install SunPower, and
 their residential module frames have a lip so all the pressure from the
 clamp doesn’t go to the glass.

 Getting to your question - what kind of mid clamps do you have? If they
 are aluminum, there may be less risk than the stainless clamps. I would be
 worried that the process of loosening and then re-tightening might cause
 more damage than good if there aren’t any problems that have occurred to
 date. It’s a good question.

 August
 Luminalt

>>> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps?

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar]

A few other ways to test, mainly for SS. 

Cracks in components,
especially cracks that are orientated transverse to the load are a sign of
impending failure. Cracks can be found using visual inspection (using a 50
x magnifier), or by dye penetrant testing. X-ray testing, eddy current
testing, ultrasonic testing and other professional methods can also be
used. 

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines
don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
[2]
text 209 813 0060

On Tue, 7 Sep 2021 09:36:37 -0700, Jerry Shafer 
wrote:  Wrenches Per request from Unirac I cut sections off and sent it
back to unirac and they say that modules that did not come loose we over
tightened, they do something like magaflux on iron, they could see
fractures in the rails, aluminum cracks when bent where steel is bending. 
Jerry 
  On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 4:30 AM Will White  wrote:  Jerry,  
I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing inspections it's
easy to find connectors that are under torqued but I haven't heard of a
reliable way to check for over torque.   Thanks, Will  
  On Mon, Sep 6,
2021 at 1:34 AM Jerry Shafer  wrote:  1/4" x 20 is no more the 10 ftlbs
(120 inlbs) and a good 1/4" impact should be able to get you over 30 ftlb.
When you overtorq bolts and nuts you put undue and irreversible stretching
and or tearing of the material not to mention warping or bending of the
plates, and rails, loosening and retorqing is a wait as if damage is done
its done, the best solution is to replace all the stressed hardware. I have
seen unirac "T" bolts crack the the rails with a bad result, so the
question is how far do you want to dig and risk to take. Regarding cracked
glass, I have only seen this with incorrect use of the clamps but over
torqing will also crush the frames. I have inspected arrays after high wind
events that resulted in destruction of the array and the manufacture in all
cases used over torq as thier out so warranty are only as good as the
installers. Jerry NABCEP PV inspector  
  On Sun, Sep 5, 2021, 8:56 PM
Corey Shalanski  wrote:   August,   Thanks for your feedback.The racking
model is EcoFoot2+ [6] by Ecolibrium Solar (now part of Unirac). These
module clamps are also self-grounding with teeth to bite into the module
frame. I reached out to the manufacturer, who confirmed that the clamp
material is aluminum extrusion and the hardware is stainless steel.   The
modules were installed about 2 weeks ago, so not very much time has elapsed
to be able to observe potential resultant damage. We haven't seen any
problems so far.   -- Corey   
  On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 6:35 AM August
Goers  wrote: 
 Hi Corey -   For many years we used Pro Solar racking and
Unirac Solarmount and tightened the clamps with impact drivers. At some
point maybe roughly 8 years ago, Unirac switched its mid clamps to
stainless steel self grounding clamps with teeth to bite into the module
frame. We continued to use impacts with no issue. Then, starting around 4
years ago, we started to have module glass failures with our SunPower
commercial systems and these Unirac clamps. We immediately switched to
torque wrenches for tightening the clamps. However, the failures continued.
My guess is that the poor design of the Unirac mid clamps in conjunction
with thinner "weaker" module frames exasperated the issue. We now have
stopped using those mid clamps and continue to hand tighten all clamps. We
primarily install SunPower, and their residential module frames have a lip
so all the pressure from the clamp doesn't go to the glass.Getting to
your question - what kind of mid clamps do you have? If they are aluminum,
there may be less risk than the stainless clamps. I would be worried that
the process of loosening and then re-tightening might cause more damage
than good if there aren't any problems that have occurred to date. It's a
good question.   August Luminalt   
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There are two list ar

[RE-wrenches] FLEXmax 100

[Jesse Dahl]

Hi. 

We have a 24V bi-modal outback system that run the residential wiring labs for 
the electrical program I teach. Long story short, the FM60 we are currently 
using had an operator error and we need to get a new charge controller. Can the 
FM100 Work “seamlessly” with an older outback systems? Wire sizes and array 
sizes all work out according to the data sheets and documents I’ve read. Is 
there any unforeseen issues with the MATE3 or optics RE that would come up if 
we upgrade to the 100? The Higher array VOC for the 100 will make the labs 
easier to set up, that’s why I’d like to get the 100. 

Thanks,

Jesse 

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [RE-wrenches] FLEXmax 100

[Chris Sparadeo]

Hi Jesse,

The FM100 is not compatible with the original Mate or discontinued Mate3.
The controller must be the Mate3s. Sounds like you have this covered, you
should be good to go. If this is an older system the AFCI might give you
some trouble. Technically you can disable, but that’s your call.

-Chris

On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 3:40 PM Jesse Dahl  wrote:

> Hi.
>
> We have a 24V bi-modal outback system that run the residential wiring labs
> for the electrical program I teach. Long story short, the FM60 we are
> currently using had an operator error and we need to get a new charge
> controller. Can the FM100 Work “seamlessly” with an older outback systems?
> Wire sizes and array sizes all work out according to the data sheets and
> documents I’ve read. Is there any unforeseen issues with the MATE3 or
> optics RE that would come up if we upgrade to the 100? The Higher array VOC
> for the 100 will make the labs easier to set up, that’s why I’d like to get
> the 100.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Jesse
>
> Sent from my iPhone
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Chris Sparadeo


C_802-369-4458
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Exploding RSD Wrench Subcommittee

[Michael Welch]

Hi Wrenches. Please contact me OFF List if interested, and I will add you to 
the listserver I have repurposed for this project:

It appears that there are many WRENCHES members who believe the NEC language 
regarding Rapid Shutdown should be significantly changed, and/or the Rapid 
Shutdown requirements should be eliminated.  A WRENCHES member has volunteered 
to help develop language to achieve this that will be submitted to the NEC's 
channels required for such consideration.  The member is setting a deadline of 
expressed interest by September 14. After that time, the process will begin. It 
is planned that this process will be undertaken by emails, and somewhat 
regimented in order to develop language in a time effective manner.  

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Re: [RE-wrenches] FLEXmax 100

[Tuss, Lones]

Hello Sir
The FM100AFCI will need to paired up with a Mate3S.
The FM100 has on board ground Fault Detection so the GFDI used with the FM60/80 
is not required Please see page 13 in the manual below.
https://outbackpower.com/downloads/documents/charge_controllers/flexmax_100_afci/fm100_afci_manual.pdf
There are 300 vdc rated breakers available due to the higher dc voltages 
possible on the array.
The breaker part numbers are listed on page 15 in the above manual.
I hope this helps.
Take Care and Stay Safe



-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Jesse Dahl
Sent: Tuesday, September 7, 2021 12:02 PM
To: Wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] FLEXmax 100

CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the Company. Do not click links 
or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is 
safe.


Hi.

We have a 24V bi-modal outback system that run the residential wiring labs for 
the electrical program I teach. Long story short, the FM60 we are currently 
using had an operator error and we need to get a new charge controller. Can the 
FM100 Work “seamlessly” with an older outback systems? Wire sizes and array 
sizes all work out according to the data sheets and documents I’ve read. Is 
there any unforeseen issues with the MATE3 or optics RE that would come up if 
we upgrade to the 100? The Higher array VOC for the 100 will make the labs 
easier to set up, that’s why I’d like to get the 100.

Thanks,

Jesse

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps?

[Corey Shalanski]

Hi Will,

I'm not sure if this is what you were asking (I see that your message was
directed to Jerry), but we 'discovered' the over torquing by setting our
torque wrench on the spec value and confirming that the wrench 'clicked,'
and then progressively increased the setting higher and continued checking
until the wrench did not click and nudged the nut a bit.

--
Corey


On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 7:29 AM Will White  wrote:

> Jerry,
>
> I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing inspections it's
> easy to find connectors that are under torqued but I haven't heard of a
> reliable way to check for over torque.
>
> Thanks,
> Will
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Over-torquing Module Clamps?

[William Miller]

That phenomenon could be just the result of the fasteners resting exposed to 
the elements. 

William Miller
www.millersolar.com

> On Sep 7, 2021, at 9:42 PM, Corey Shalanski  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Will,
> 
> I'm not sure if this is what you were asking (I see that your message was 
> directed to Jerry), but we 'discovered' the over torquing by setting our 
> torque wrench on the spec value and confirming that the wrench 'clicked,' and 
> then progressively increased the setting higher and continued checking until 
> the wrench did not click and nudged the nut a bit.
> 
> --
> Corey
> 
> 
>> On Tue, Sep 7, 2021 at 7:29 AM Will White  wrote:
>> Jerry,
>> 
>> I'm curious, how did they prove over torquing? When doing inspections it's 
>> easy to find connectors that are under torqued but I haven't heard of a 
>> reliable way to check for over torque.
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> Will
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