RE: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[David Raymond]

> Do I agree with the PR, not exactly. However, I do think we as a community
> should be accommodating to people
> Whose use of the English language differs from the standard as long as the
> meaning is clear.

Remember that the problem isn't the change in wording of the PEP. That's all 
well and good and not an issue. We're on board with what you just said and on 
board with the wording change.

It's the commit message at the top (on the linked page) that's the issue. The 
commit message was not "hey, we are now being more accommodating and aware." 
The commit message was "hey, you're a racist white supremacist if you pick a 
specific standard."

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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Richard Damon]

On 8/18/20 1:22 AM, justin walters wrote:
> I for one don't want to see politics involved in PL development. However,
> inclusivity isn't a political issue, it's a human rights issue.
>
> Do I agree with the PR, not exactly. However, I do think we as a community
> should be accommodating to people
> Whose use of the English language differs from the standard as long as the
> meaning is clear.
>
> This thread reads like a bunch of old fuddy duddies complaining about
> immigrants not speaking perfect English at a fast food restaurant.
>
> Feel free to ban me from the list if this doesn't meet your standards.
>
One comment on this. I think the focus on the words that have been used
is very much a '1st world problem'. Most of the people actually
suffering from the problems being discusses would very much LOVE to be
in a position where the discussion of what words are the right way to
say something was their biggest issue. The forces behind these issues
very much love to see our focus go to debating our speech, as opposed to
actually DOING something about the issue. This isn't an accusation that
those bringing up the speech issues are part of the dark forces behind
the problems, but maybe a call to them to think about what really is the
important issue.

This also doesn't mean that language doesn't matter. If our language
makes a Human Rights issue seem to be 'normal', that is bad, and weakens
our resolve against it. Sometimes though, the right use of a word can be
powerful, and analogies are great teachers. For example, talking (to a
techie) how in a master-slave network, the master node has very strong
control over what the slave node does, and then comparing that to a
person, asking how would it feel to be that 'slave node', maybe even
needing to wait for your 'master' to ask before you went to the
bathroom, or be considered to be 'malfunctioning'.

-- 
Richard Damon

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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Chris Angelico]

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:12 PM Richard Damon  wrote:
>
> On 8/18/20 1:22 AM, justin walters wrote:
> > I for one don't want to see politics involved in PL development. However,
> > inclusivity isn't a political issue, it's a human rights issue.
> >
> > Do I agree with the PR, not exactly. However, I do think we as a community
> > should be accommodating to people
> > Whose use of the English language differs from the standard as long as the
> > meaning is clear.
> >
> > This thread reads like a bunch of old fuddy duddies complaining about
> > immigrants not speaking perfect English at a fast food restaurant.
> >
> > Feel free to ban me from the list if this doesn't meet your standards.
> >
> One comment on this. I think the focus on the words that have been used
> is very much a '1st world problem'. Most of the people actually
> suffering from the problems being discusses would very much LOVE to be
> in a position where the discussion of what words are the right way to
> say something was their biggest issue. The forces behind these issues
> very much love to see our focus go to debating our speech, as opposed to
> actually DOING something about the issue. This isn't an accusation that
> those bringing up the speech issues are part of the dark forces behind
> the problems, but maybe a call to them to think about what really is the
> important issue.

This was raised. And the commit message clearly associates a language
standard with "white supremacy", the notion that certain people are
inherently better than others. Is it a first-world problem to consider
that light-skinned people are better than others? (No you don't have
to answer that.)

Had the commit message simply said "specific standards of English are
unnecessary in a global project", there could have been a perfectly
reasonable debate as to whether it's better to say "Strunk & White" or
to say "please write clearly at all times". (And on that debate there
are MANY valid points, including whether simple rules restrict or
enhance freedom.) But it said that having a standard *at all* is proof
that we all believe that white people are better than others.

> This also doesn't mean that language doesn't matter. If our language
> makes a Human Rights issue seem to be 'normal', that is bad, and weakens
> our resolve against it. Sometimes though, the right use of a word can be
> powerful, and analogies are great teachers. For example, talking (to a
> techie) how in a master-slave network, the master node has very strong
> control over what the slave node does, and then comparing that to a
> person, asking how would it feel to be that 'slave node', maybe even
> needing to wait for your 'master' to ask before you went to the
> bathroom, or be considered to be 'malfunctioning'.

TBH I think that removing "slave" from technical vocabulary is an
oversimplification and overreaction. If you have people who are being
treated as slaves, that is a problem. If you have people who are being
treated as machines, that is also a problem. Do we need to abolish all
use of "computer" and "robot" and "drone" from our technical language
too? Or do we keep those terms around, and recognize that these are
forms of dominance that must not be used between one human and
another? Simply abolishing the words doesn't prevent the practice, and
it just makes them into "dirty words" that are hard to discuss in any
context.

The replacement of "master hard drive" and "slave hard drive" with
"primary" and "secondary" isn't itself a major issue, although I'm a
bit annoyed at the churn that comes with sweeping changes. But where
next? How many other terms need to be reviewed just to see if they
could be misapplied to people? Are we going to get a "Black Pixels
Matter" movement among LCD manufacturers?

And none of this justifies burying something in a commit message.

Which the Python Steering Council doesn't even want to declare was
wrong. They are quite happy for the behaviour to continue.

ChrisA
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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[J. Pic]

I think this commit message is not enough: we should take it further
and demand that Elwyn Brooks White choose change their last name to
something less supremacist.

Also: I've been waiting long enough to see this drama hit the chess
world by itself so I'm explicitly making the suggestion here.
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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Robin Becker]

On 18/08/2020 04:53, thronobu...@gmail.com wrote:




"Truth is a social construct."


much as I deplore the politicization of computers, logic, maths and other areas of human interest by particular interest 
groups, according to some physicists, reality might be an observer based construct


https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/08/quantum-paradox-points-shaky-foundations-reality

ReportLab has quite a lot of colour based words; so far I've only had a few related emails :) which mostly seem to end 
up in spam


-hoping to escape victimhood-ly yrs-
Robin Becker


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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Igor Korot]

Hi,

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 10:27 AM J. Pic  wrote:
>
> I think this commit message is not enough: we should take it further
> and demand that Elwyn Brooks White choose change their last name to
> something less supremacist.
>
> Also: I've been waiting long enough to see this drama hit the chess
> world by itself so I'm explicitly making the suggestion here.

How dare you use "x" in the word "explicit"?

Mr. Malcolm will not be pleased...

Thank you.

> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[J. Pic]

I'm sorry Igor, I didn't mean to ruin your "conspiracy theories just
hit the commit log day"
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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Tim Daneliuk]

On 8/17/20 1:26 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> For context, see this commit:
> 
> https://github.com/python/peps/commit/0c6427dcec1e98ca0bd46a876a7219ee4a9347f4
> 
> The commit message is highly politically charged and is now a
> permanent part of the Python commit history. The Python Steering
> Council has this to say:
> 
> https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/34#issuecomment-675028005
> 
> "The SC discussed this and ... we do not deplore the message."
> 
> So now we know: go ahead and put all the political messages you like
> into the commit messages, just don't put anything inappropriate into
> the content. White supremacy has been mentioned; who wants to pick the
> next hot topic?
> 
> ChrisA
> 
Just a few thoughts here ...

- While languages evolve over time, _in any given moment_ there are better
  and worse ways to express ideas in a given language. "The Elements Of Style"
  remains relevant today because it provides guidance on improving
  written clarity.  It is not some blind defence of the
  perfect English.

- Precision of language and precision of thought go hand in hand.  Much
  of the grousing about languages standards (in this case, hiding in
  drag as social consciousness) is little more than intellectual laziness.
  In actual fact, our discipline has burned a lot of intellectual
  fuel in trying to find ways to be _more precise_ for things like
  specifications, formal semantics, and the like.

- It is my consistent experience when working with non-native English
  speakers, that they wish to _improve_ their use and precision of the
  language, not simplify it.

- Why is English the only target of these social pieties?  You never
  hear these demands to relax these linguistic standards for, say, French,
  German, or Spanish.  Similarly, where is the outcry to make
  Mandarin, Bantu, Swahili, or Arabic more approachable for
  Westerners?

Methinks there is an ideological skunk in the parlor ...


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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[gia]

 That's why I picked Math, it is also universally accepted, it's very
strict, and it leaves the reader to decide its color based on themselves
(it's not white btw :)

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 11:36 AM Tim Daneliuk  wrote:

> On 8/17/20 1:26 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > For context, see this commit:
> >
> >
> https://github.com/python/peps/commit/0c6427dcec1e98ca0bd46a876a7219ee4a9347f4
> >
> > The commit message is highly politically charged and is now a
> > permanent part of the Python commit history. The Python Steering
> > Council has this to say:
> >
> >
> https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/34#issuecomment-675028005
> >
> > "The SC discussed this and ... we do not deplore the message."
> >
> > So now we know: go ahead and put all the political messages you like
> > into the commit messages, just don't put anything inappropriate into
> > the content. White supremacy has been mentioned; who wants to pick the
> > next hot topic?
> >
> > ChrisA
> >
> Just a few thoughts here ...
>
> - While languages evolve over time, _in any given moment_ there are better
>   and worse ways to express ideas in a given language. "The Elements Of
> Style"
>   remains relevant today because it provides guidance on improving
>   written clarity.  It is not some blind defence of the
>   perfect English.
>
> - Precision of language and precision of thought go hand in hand.  Much
>   of the grousing about languages standards (in this case, hiding in
>   drag as social consciousness) is little more than intellectual laziness.
>   In actual fact, our discipline has burned a lot of intellectual
>   fuel in trying to find ways to be _more precise_ for things like
>   specifications, formal semantics, and the like.
>
> - It is my consistent experience when working with non-native English
>   speakers, that they wish to _improve_ their use and precision of the
>   language, not simplify it.
>
> - Why is English the only target of these social pieties?  You never
>   hear these demands to relax these linguistic standards for, say, French,
>   German, or Spanish.  Similarly, where is the outcry to make
>   Mandarin, Bantu, Swahili, or Arabic more approachable for
>   Westerners?
>
> Methinks there is an ideological skunk in the parlor ...
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[justin walters]

I believe the commit message was written in bad faith. It reeks of virtue
signaling. Commit messages should remain purely technical in nature.
However, I do think the change itself is valid.

I don't care about the style of comments as long as they are clear and
communicate their message well. How is that determined? During the PR
review process. If you are performing a review and a comment is so poorly
written that you can't figure out what it means, request improvements.

Non technical discussion should be left out of commit messages and issues.
Instead, that sort of discussion should take place on mailing lists,
forums, and in person. As a community, we need to be more open to
discussing these sort of topics without resorting to condescending remarks.

I apologize for being ageist earlier as well. That was out of line.

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 9:36 AM Tim Daneliuk  wrote:

> On 8/17/20 1:26 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > For context, see this commit:
> >
> >
> https://github.com/python/peps/commit/0c6427dcec1e98ca0bd46a876a7219ee4a9347f4
> >
> > The commit message is highly politically charged and is now a
> > permanent part of the Python commit history. The Python Steering
> > Council has this to say:
> >
> >
> https://github.com/python/steering-council/issues/34#issuecomment-675028005
> >
> > "The SC discussed this and ... we do not deplore the message."
> >
> > So now we know: go ahead and put all the political messages you like
> > into the commit messages, just don't put anything inappropriate into
> > the content. White supremacy has been mentioned; who wants to pick the
> > next hot topic?
> >
> > ChrisA
> >
> Just a few thoughts here ...
>
> - While languages evolve over time, _in any given moment_ there are better
>   and worse ways to express ideas in a given language. "The Elements Of
> Style"
>   remains relevant today because it provides guidance on improving
>   written clarity.  It is not some blind defence of the
>   perfect English.
>
> - Precision of language and precision of thought go hand in hand.  Much
>   of the grousing about languages standards (in this case, hiding in
>   drag as social consciousness) is little more than intellectual laziness.
>   In actual fact, our discipline has burned a lot of intellectual
>   fuel in trying to find ways to be _more precise_ for things like
>   specifications, formal semantics, and the like.
>
> - It is my consistent experience when working with non-native English
>   speakers, that they wish to _improve_ their use and precision of the
>   language, not simplify it.
>
> - Why is English the only target of these social pieties?  You never
>   hear these demands to relax these linguistic standards for, say, French,
>   German, or Spanish.  Similarly, where is the outcry to make
>   Mandarin, Bantu, Swahili, or Arabic more approachable for
>   Westerners?
>
> Methinks there is an ideological skunk in the parlor ...
>
>
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Finding it very difficult to move pyexiv2 code from Python 2 to Python 3

[Chris Green]

I have a fairly simple Python program that I wrote a while ago in
Python 2 that transfers images from my camera to a date ordered
directory hierarchy on my computer.

I am trying to get it to work on Python 3 as I have just upgraded to
Ubuntu 20.04 and on that Python 3 is now the default version of Python.

I seem to be descending into a horrible morass of dependencies (or
failed dependencies) when I try to install pyexiv2 (pr py3exiv2) using
pip3.

Can anyone point me at anywhere that might have some documentation
that will help? 

The first problem (it might be the whole problem, I'm not sure) is
which 'pyexiv2' I should be installing, there seem to be several
apparently competing versions and it's not at all clear which is the
most likely to work.  On pypi there's py3exiv2 and pyexiv2 both of
which claim to be for Python 3.  On the http://py3exiv2.tuxfamily.org/
page it states: "py3exiv2 is the Python 3 version of pyexiv2 written
for Python 2, ...", really! no wonder I'm confused.

Essentially I need the python-pyexiv2 package for Ubuntu 20.04 and
it's only available up to 19.10.

-- 
Chris Green
·
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Re: Finding it very difficult to move pyexiv2 code from Python 2 to Python 3

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 3:36 AM Chris Green  wrote:
>
> I have a fairly simple Python program that I wrote a while ago in
> Python 2 that transfers images from my camera to a date ordered
> directory hierarchy on my computer.
>
> I am trying to get it to work on Python 3 as I have just upgraded to
> Ubuntu 20.04 and on that Python 3 is now the default version of Python.
>
> I seem to be descending into a horrible morass of dependencies (or
> failed dependencies) when I try to install pyexiv2 (pr py3exiv2) using
> pip3.
>
> Can anyone point me at anywhere that might have some documentation
> that will help?
>
> The first problem (it might be the whole problem, I'm not sure) is
> which 'pyexiv2' I should be installing, there seem to be several
> apparently competing versions and it's not at all clear which is the
> most likely to work.  On pypi there's py3exiv2 and pyexiv2 both of
> which claim to be for Python 3.  On the http://py3exiv2.tuxfamily.org/
> page it states: "py3exiv2 is the Python 3 version of pyexiv2 written
> for Python 2, ...", really! no wonder I'm confused.
>
> Essentially I need the python-pyexiv2 package for Ubuntu 20.04 and
> it's only available up to 19.10.
>

You might be partly out of luck. I'm not seeing any pyexiv package for
Python 3 either in Ubuntu or Debian. But there is another way: you
might be able to just install it with pip. You mentioned that it's on
PyPI, so try this:

python3 -m pip install py3exiv2

(best inside a virtual environment, but otherwise you might need sudo)

My reading of the PyPI pages is that the original Python 2 library was
created by one person (Michael Vanslembrouck), and then someone else
(VinsS) did the Python 3 port, which means it had to get a different
name.

You could agitate to get py3exiv2 added to the Ubuntu repositories,
but in the meantime, if you can install it with pip, that should be
viable. I install most things using pip, but then, I also tend to have
versions of Python that aren't supported by upstream (*cough*
currently running 3.10...) :)

ChrisA
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Re: why the connection set with “keep live” in urllib.request always set to be“closed, thanks

[Barry Scott]

> On 18 Aug 2020, at 02:16, xuanwu348  wrote:
> 
> 
> This means I want to structure my request header with "Connection: keep 
> alive" for the server which support connect alive,
> But I checked the requeset header send by myself, the connection still 
> closed, no affect by set
> 
> And I also found this in python document:
> ==
> urllib.request.urlopen(url, data=None, [timeout, ]*, cafile=None, 
> capath=None, cadefault=False, context=None)
> Open the URL url, which can be either a string or a Request 
> 
>  object.
> 
> data must be an object specifying additional data to be sent to the server, 
> or None if no such data is needed. See Request 
> 
>  for details.
> 
> urllib.request module uses HTTP/1.1 and includes Connection:close header in 
> its HTTP requests.
> 
> ===
> Does it mean urllib.request don't support 'keep alive'?

The term in HTTP 1.1 is persistent connections. See 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-8.1 


The server will assume persistent connections for the reasons documented.

Since you have seen requests sending "Connection: close" that is saying to the 
server that
persistent connection is not required. The server will send the response and 
close its end.

Sounds like you need to use another library to allow you to use the persistent 
connection.

If you know your way around TCP sockets and protocols this is not that hard to 
write the
code to do persistent connections for a client.

Maybe look at a library like twisted? Its got all the building blocks you need 
to handle
persistent connections.

Barry

> 
> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 在 2020-08-18 04:51:03，"Barry"  写道：
> >
> >
> >> On 17 Aug 2020, at 18:23, xuanwu348  wrote:
> >> 
> >> hi everyone
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Good day, the code as below, I try to make a long connection by set the 
> >> connection to "keep-alive", but actually it's not as expected. Why?  Thanks
> >
> >What this means is. Please web server keep the connect alive if you can.
> >The web server is allowed to close the connection if it wants too.
> >
> >Barry
> >
> >> 
> >> 
> >> import urllib.request as req
> >> headers = {"authorization": "Bearer {}".format(self.token),
> >>   "Content-Type": "multipart/form-data; 
> >> boundary={}".format(self.boundary),
> >>   "Connection": "keep-alive"}
> >> request = req.Request(event_uri, headers=headers, 
> >> data=data.encode("utf-8"))
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Accept-Encoding: identity
> >> 
> >> Content-Length: 705
> >> 
> >> Host: 10.10.1.114:9443
> >> 
> >> User-Agent: Python-urllib/3.8
> >> 
> >> Authorization: Bearer a1.BUiPZxxCQdH2c9uegml
> >> 
> >> Content-Type: multipart/form-data; boundary=--testtest--
> >> 
> >> Connection: close
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Best Regards
> >> -- 
> >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> >> 
> 
> 
>  

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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Tim Daneliuk]

On 8/18/20 12:28 PM, justin walters wrote:
> I apologize for being ageist earlier as well. That was out of line.

I am likely older than you and there is no reason to apologise.
Only the profoundly undeveloped psyche takes every opportunity to
find offense when  none is intended.  It is the sign of a puerile
mind, irrespective of actual chronological age.  Feel free to be
as "ageist" as you wish ... only make it funny or biting ...

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Re: Finding it very difficult to move pyexiv2 code from Python 2 to Python 3

[Vincent Vande Vyvre]

Le 18/08/20 à 19:22, Chris Green a écrit :
> I have a fairly simple Python program that I wrote a while ago in
> Python 2 that transfers images from my camera to a date ordered
> directory hierarchy on my computer.
>
> I am trying to get it to work on Python 3 as I have just upgraded to
> Ubuntu 20.04 and on that Python 3 is now the default version of Python.
>
> I seem to be descending into a horrible morass of dependencies (or
> failed dependencies) when I try to install pyexiv2 (pr py3exiv2) using
> pip3.
>
> Can anyone point me at anywhere that might have some documentation
> that will help? 
>
> The first problem (it might be the whole problem, I'm not sure) is
> which 'pyexiv2' I should be installing, there seem to be several
> apparently competing versions and it's not at all clear which is the
> most likely to work.  On pypi there's py3exiv2 and pyexiv2 both of
> which claim to be for Python 3.  On the http://py3exiv2.tuxfamily.org/
> page it states: "py3exiv2 is the Python 3 version of pyexiv2 written
> for Python 2, ...", really! no wonder I'm confused.
>
> Essentially I need the python-pyexiv2 package for Ubuntu 20.04 and
> it's only available up to 19.10.
>
Hi,

Two solutions:
1. Install exiv2-dev and py3exiv2 with pip
    $ sudo apt-get install libexiv2-dev
    $ sudo pip3 install py3exiv2

2. Install my ppa
    $ sudo add-apt-repository ppa:vincent-vandevyvre/vvv
    $ sudo apt-get update
    $ sudo apt-get install python3-exiv2

Don't change your old code for pyexiv2, the names of the modules are
unchanged, your old code should work as it.

Off course old strings are now unicode.

Vincent (AKA VinsS)

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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Kyle Stanley]

On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 2:37 PM Chris Angelico  wrote:

> Yes. I was hoping for "we should rewrite that commit", and would have
> been content with "we won't rewrite it, but we don't want that
> repeated". But the SC said that it is absolutely fine to write commit
> messages like that.
>

While I'm also not entirely content with the outcome (specifically that the
commit message would have been left as-is, even if it was easy to edit
post-merge) and would have liked to see a similar statement along the lines
of the above, I don't consider the current statement by the SC to be saying
that it's "absolutely fine" to write similar commit messages in the future.
Instead, I interpret it as the SC collectively not being strongly against
the commit message in question enough to make an amendment; e.g. they don't
consider it egregious enough to take direct action or publicly condemn it,
and possibly that doing so would not result in a net benefit to the Python
development community.

This interpretation may require a bit of reading between the lines because
there was no explicit mention by the SC of the commit message being
problematic. However, if they considered it to be perfectly fine and having
no issues at all, I think it would have been said outright, and this issue
would have ended a long time ago instead of them addressing it several
times.

Going forward, I think the drama from this situation alone will cause us
core developers to more carefully assess commit messages before going
forward with merging PRs to ensure they focus on the changes being made.
When I find the spare cycles to do so, I'm also hoping that I can make a
minor addition to the "Making Good Commits" section of the devguide
, to guide
future commit messages towards focusing on a technical summary of the
changes made and avoiding unrelated commentary.

In the meantime, I don't think there's anything productive we can gain from
further discussion of this particular commit message. At the end of the
day, I suspect it will become buried in the git history and forgotten about
since it was associated with a minor change. If anything, further threads
about it will just end up bringing more attention to the message than it
would have otherwise received. Instead of exhausting more cycles on this,
I'd just like to move past this issue and go back to what I actually care
about - contributing to Python.
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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Chris Angelico]

On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 7:11 AM Kyle Stanley  wrote:
>
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2020 at 2:37 PM Chris Angelico  wrote:
>>
>> Yes. I was hoping for "we should rewrite that commit", and would have
>> been content with "we won't rewrite it, but we don't want that
>> repeated". But the SC said that it is absolutely fine to write commit
>> messages like that.
>
>
> While I'm also not entirely content with the outcome (specifically that the 
> commit message would have been left as-is, even if it was easy to edit 
> post-merge) and would have liked to see a similar statement along the lines 
> of the above, I don't consider the current statement by the SC to be saying 
> that it's "absolutely fine" to write similar commit messages in the future. 
> Instead, I interpret it as the SC collectively not being strongly against the 
> commit message in question enough to make an amendment; e.g. they don't 
> consider it egregious enough to take direct action or publicly condemn it, 
> and possibly that doing so would not result in a net benefit to the Python 
> development community.
>

If you read the thread above the post in question, you'll find that
the SC specifically decided NOT to speak out against the commit
message. I was asking for them to make a statement saying that the
message was unacceptable and should not be repeated, and they decided
not to. In other words, it's not just that they aren't editing it, but
they are actively refusing to reject future commits on the same lines.
"Even if it was easy to edit post-merge we would still leave the
message as-is". It's not "too much upheaval to edit it now, it's too
late, leave it there". It's "even if it were easy we still wouldn't,
because we don't dislike this commit message".

If I'm misinterpreting that, please can a SC member explain in more
detail what the statement actually means? Otherwise, I have to assume
that the SC approves of it.

ChrisA
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LittleRookie

[Jamelaumn]

i would say i'm new at programing i have a year of experience in python(but i'm 
tottaly a noob) i guess i'm starting to learn SQL now.What should i do to learn 
better and faster?
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LittleRookie

[Jamelaumn]

i would say i'm new at programing i have a year of experience in python(but i'm 
tottaly a noob) i guess i'm starting to learn SQL now.What should i do to learn 
better and faster?
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Re: LittleRookie

[Igor Korot]

Hi,

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, 5:32 PM Jamelaumn  wrote:

> i would say i'm new at programing i have a year of experience in
> python(but i'm tottaly a noob) i guess i'm starting to learn SQL now.What
> should i do to learn better and faster?
>

Enroll in the local college and start your journey there?
Successfully finish it and get an internship.
Follow with it, get to know people.
Continue working in the area.

Thank you.

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>
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Re: LittleRookie

[dn via Python-list]

i would say i'm new at programing i have a year of experience in
python(but i'm tottaly a noob) i guess i'm starting to learn SQL now.What
should i do to learn better and faster?



Enroll in the local college and start your journey there?
Successfully finish it and get an internship.
Follow with it, get to know people.
Continue working in the area.



+1, not only learning Python but making valuable contacts!

However, if you are taking advantage of a COVID-19 'lock-down', and are 
happy to work from home; consider the Python offerings from Coursera.org 
and edX.org, eg U.Michigan's series. These start-from-scratch, so will 
give you the opportunity to review existing knowledge, as appropriate; 
and continue onwards-and-upwards. Alternately, you could jump-in at 
whichever level you feel comfortable. From memory(!?) there are specific 
courses on Python I/O, and Python i/a with DBs.


BTW such courses are often available either for-free or $certification.

Conversely, if you'd prefer to major on the SQL side (and use Python as 
the app-language!) there are plenty of courses covering that topic as 
well. Yesterday I was shown: Create a Database with the Modeling Tool in 
MySQL Workbench 
(https://www.coursera.org/projects/create-database-with-modeling-tool-mysql-workbench) 
- amongst other short-sharp offerings featuring the MySQL Workbench DBA 
tool (and possibly more). At a more general interest, please review 
Stanford's on-line offerings (they've recently/finally moved off their 
own platform to edX) at https://www.edx.org/school/stanfordonline 
(ignoring all 'the other stuff'). Personal recommendation: anything with 
Jennifer Widom is worth attending!

--
Regards =dn
Disclaimer: I use the edX platform, but not for Python training.
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Re: LittleRookie

[Michael Torrie]

On 8/18/20 4:26 PM, Jamelaumn wrote:
> i would say i'm new at programing i have a year of experience in python(but 
> i'm tottaly a noob) i guess i'm starting to learn SQL now.What should i do to 
> learn better and faster?

The only way is to build something with it. Solve a problem with Python.
 Make a web site with Django or another popular Python web framework.
Write a script that processes some data you need.  Could be anything.

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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[rmlibre]

There are many reasons Elements is a terrible English style guide:
https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/files/8520953/PULLUM_2010_The_land_of_the_free_and_the_elements_of_style.pdf

I would kindly recommend that folks just educate themselves on what
white supremacy is & how it continues in both subtle & overt ways to
this day. Sadly, getting extremely upset after being exposed to the
accurate term white supremacy is a symptom of what's called 'white
fragility' by psychologists who study the social pathologies of racism &
its long-lasting, inter-generational impacts on society.

You need serious help with processing your anger if you look at
everything that's happening in the world & bubble in anger over a commit
message that is simply acknowledging a social ill. One of countless
many. I do hope you get the help you need.

I would also caution against relying on the idea of human rights when
defending against accusations of being political, since they too are
political. Life is political. We continue to this day trying to
redefine, as a society, what human rights are, & who is considered to
deserve them. That process is politics.

Some people think that being called white is racist. Other people think
that having their land & children stolen because of their race & being
forced to write in the language of their captors is racist. One group is
deflecting blame for the worst atrocities in history, the other is
acknowledging a real problem & seeking accountability in everyday life.


Resources:
  A People's History of the United States:
https://mvlindsey.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/peoples-history-zinn-1980.pdf
  The Invention of the White Race: Volume II:
http://ouleft.org/wp-content/uploads/Invention-White-Race-Vol2-Allen.pdf



>   python-list@python.org
> 
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
>   https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
>   python-list-requ...@python.org
> 
> You can reach the person managing the list at
>   python-list-ow...@python.org
> 
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Python-list digest..."
> 
> Today's Topics:
> 
>1. why the connection set with ?keep live? in urllib.request
>   always set to be?closed, thanks (xuanwu348)
>2. Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged
>   commit messages (Chris Angelico)
>3. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (Dylan Distasio)
>4. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (Chris Angelico)
>5. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (gia)
>6. Re: why the connection set with ?keep live? in urllib.request
>   always set to be?closed, thanks (Barry)
>7. Re:Re: why the connection set with ?keep live? in
>   urllib.request always set to be?closed, thanks (xuanwu348)
>8. Error (Thi?n Nguy?n Thanh)
>9. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (thronobu...@gmail.com)
>   10. Re: Error (Igor Korot)
>   11. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (thronobu...@gmail.com)
>   12. Re: Error (Thi?n Nguy?n Thanh)
>   13. Re: Error (Igor Korot)
>   14. Re: Error (Igor Korot)
>   15. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (justin walters)
>   16. RE: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (David Raymond)
>   17. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (Richard Damon)
>   18. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (Chris Angelico)
>   19. ANN: Wing Python IDE version 7.2.4 has been released (Wingware)
>   20. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (Robin Becker)
>   21. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (J. Pic)
>   22. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
>   politically-charged commit messages (Igor Korot)
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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[gia]

Trafficking of people is a very current problem, and it is not a race
issue, as people of all races are abducted by people of all races. Yes,
right now. If you are so strong about ending that suffering, I suggest you
focus on the present and stop wading in the past.

On Tue, Aug 18, 2020 at 6:36 PM  wrote:

> There are many reasons Elements is a terrible English style guide:
>
> https://www.pure.ed.ac.uk/ws/files/8520953/PULLUM_2010_The_land_of_the_free_and_the_elements_of_style.pdf
>
> I would kindly recommend that folks just educate themselves on what
> white supremacy is & how it continues in both subtle & overt ways to
> this day. Sadly, getting extremely upset after being exposed to the
> accurate term white supremacy is a symptom of what's called 'white
> fragility' by psychologists who study the social pathologies of racism &
> its long-lasting, inter-generational impacts on society.
>
> You need serious help with processing your anger if you look at
> everything that's happening in the world & bubble in anger over a commit
> message that is simply acknowledging a social ill. One of countless
> many. I do hope you get the help you need.
>
> I would also caution against relying on the idea of human rights when
> defending against accusations of being political, since they too are
> political. Life is political. We continue to this day trying to
> redefine, as a society, what human rights are, & who is considered to
> deserve them. That process is politics.
>
> Some people think that being called white is racist. Other people think
> that having their land & children stolen because of their race & being
> forced to write in the language of their captors is racist. One group is
> deflecting blame for the worst atrocities in history, the other is
> acknowledging a real problem & seeking accountability in everyday life.
>
>
> Resources:
>   A People's History of the United States:
> https://mvlindsey.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/peoples-history-zinn-1980.pdf
>   The Invention of the White Race: Volume II:
> http://ouleft.org/wp-content/uploads/Invention-White-Race-Vol2-Allen.pdf
>
>
>
> >   python-list@python.org
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> >   https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> >   python-list-requ...@python.org
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> >   python-list-ow...@python.org
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Python-list digest..."
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >1. why the connection set with ?keep live? in urllib.request
> >   always set to be?closed, thanks (xuanwu348)
> >2. Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged
> >   commit messages (Chris Angelico)
> >3. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (Dylan Distasio)
> >4. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (Chris Angelico)
> >5. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (gia)
> >6. Re: why the connection set with ?keep live? in urllib.request
> >   always set to be?closed, thanks (Barry)
> >7. Re:Re: why the connection set with ?keep live? in
> >   urllib.request always set to be?closed, thanks (xuanwu348)
> >8. Error (Thi?n Nguy?n Thanh)
> >9. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (thronobu...@gmail.com)
> >   10. Re: Error (Igor Korot)
> >   11. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (thronobu...@gmail.com)
> >   12. Re: Error (Thi?n Nguy?n Thanh)
> >   13. Re: Error (Igor Korot)
> >   14. Re: Error (Igor Korot)
> >   15. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (justin walters)
> >   16. RE: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (David Raymond)
> >   17. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (Richard Damon)
> >   18. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (Chris Angelico)
> >   19. ANN: Wing Python IDE version 7.2.4 has been released (Wingware)
> >   20. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (Robin Becker)
> >   21. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (J. Pic)
> >   22. Re: Final statement from Steering Council on
> >   politically-charged commit messages (Igor Korot)
> --
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>
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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Richard Damon]

On 8/18/20 7:34 PM, rmli...@riseup.net wrote:
> I would also caution against relying on the idea of human rights when
> defending against accusations of being political, since they too are
> political. Life is political. We continue to this day trying to
> redefine, as a society, what human rights are, & who is considered to
> deserve them. That process is politics.

I will challenge STRONGLY the believe that all right are political in
nature. That attitude is the path of tyranny, for if rights only come by
the will of the government, then the government is in its right to take
them all away.

The American Deceleration of Independence states it well (Yes, I know we
are not all Americans):

*We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.*

Without an ideal like this, that the basic rights come out of something
bigger than ourselves, we have no basis to decide on what is a right. In
fact, if we declare that rights are purely a political decision, we have
no right to complain about past abuses that were within what the then
society decide was right, or at the very least if we want to say they
were wrong, we have to accept just as validly their concept that WE are
just as wrong.

Politics may be the process to hammer out the details, but if politics
does not look to the ruling of the truly higher power, it has no
authority, except might, to enforce it. If we accept might as the right
and power to rule, we need to accept that it was and will be the right
and power, and accept what it brought and will bring.

-- 
Richard Damon

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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Tim Daneliuk]

On 8/18/20 6:34 PM, rmli...@riseup.net wrote:
> I would kindly recommend that folks just educate themselves on what


I would also like to help you become educated.  Be sure to check
out these literary treasures - they are the foundation of the
worldview you are espousing:


The_Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State - Engels

Das Kapital - Marx

On Guerrilla Warfare - Mao

Your claims to virtue are a fraud.
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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Tim Daneliuk]

On 8/18/20 6:34 PM, rmli...@riseup.net wrote:
> I would kindly recommend that folks just educate themselves on what

Speaking of being educated ...  Could you please do an exposition
for all us ignorant types on the books that really animate
your worldview:


The_Origin of the Family, Private Property, and the State - Engels

Das Kapital - Marx

On Guerrilla Warfare - Mao

There are many noble causes for which to fight.  Yours isn't one of them.

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Re:Re: why the connection set with “keep live” in urllib.request always set to be“closed, thanks

[xuanwu348]

Thanks all,


I had met this problem was when I did restapi test.
I send a request by python script and the time processed by server very short, 
and another request send by postman, the time seems normal, 
I compare the diff between these two request, 
obvious difference is the connection, which in postman request was keep-alive 
and in python script's was closed.
So I try to found out if it was the cause.
And at last we found that not the reason triggered this problem, and the really 
reason lead the problem is the parameter I transfered in json body. 
 
and thanks for the links you provid, I will read into them.  


Best Regards



At 2020-08-19 02:35:42, "Barry Scott"  wrote:





On 18 Aug 2020, at 02:16, xuanwu348  wrote:




This means I want to structure my request header with "Connection: keep alive" 
for the server which support connect alive,
But I checked the requeset header send by myself, the connection still closed, 
no affect by set


And I also found this in python document:
==
urllib.request.urlopen(url, data=None, [timeout, ]*, cafile=None, capath=None, 
cadefault=False, context=None)

Open the URL url, which can be either a string or a Request object.

data must be an object specifying additional data to be sent to the server, or 
None if no such data is needed. See Request for details.

urllib.request module uses HTTP/1.1 and includes Connection:close header in its 
HTTP requests.

===
Does it mean urllib.request don't support 'keep alive'?


The term in HTTP 1.1 is persistent connections. See 
https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2616#section-8.1


The server will assume persistent connections for the reasons documented.


Since you have seen requests sending "Connection: close" that is saying to the 
server that
persistent connection is not required. The server will send the response and 
close its end.


Sounds like you need to use another library to allow you to use the persistent 
connection.


If you know your way around TCP sockets and protocols this is not that hard to 
write the
code to do persistent connections for a client.


Maybe look at a library like twisted? Its got all the building blocks you need 
to handle
persistent connections.


Barry




Thanks







在 2020-08-18 04:51:03，"Barry"  写道：
>
>
>> On 17 Aug 2020, at 18:23, xuanwu348  wrote:
>> 
>> hi everyone
>> 
>> 
>> Good day, the code as below, I try to make a long connection by set the 
>> connection to "keep-alive", but actually it's not as expected. Why?  Thanks
>
>What this means is. Please web server keep the connect alive if you can.
>The web server is allowed to close the connection if it wants too.
>
>Barry
>
>> 
>> 
>> import urllib.request as req
>> headers = {"authorization": "Bearer {}".format(self.token),
>>   "Content-Type": "multipart/form-data; 
>> boundary={}".format(self.boundary),
>>   "Connection": "keep-alive"}
>> request = req.Request(event_uri, headers=headers, data=data.encode("utf-8"))
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Accept-Encoding: identity
>> 
>> Content-Length: 705
>> 
>> Host: 10.10.1.114:9443
>> 
>> User-Agent: Python-urllib/3.8
>> 
>> Authorization: Bearer a1.BUiPZxxCQdH2c9uegml
>> 
>> Content-Type: multipart/form-data; boundary=--testtest--
>> 
>> Connection: close
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> Best Regards
>> -- 
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>> 




 


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Re: LittleRookie

[Jamelaumn]

<3 thank u guys i will try get better
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Re: LittleRookie

[Jamelaumn]

actually for me to sign for any online courses like stanford etc... if it's needed any document i 
couldnt  get in because i have none i'm from brazil :v anyway thank u guys ;) i will try find something

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Re: Final statement from Steering Council on politically-charged commit messages

[Karen Shaeffer via Python-list]

> On Aug 18, 2020, at 6:13 PM, Richard Damon  wrote:
> 
> On 8/18/20 7:34 PM, rmli...@riseup.net wrote:
>> I would also caution against relying on the idea of human rights when
>> defending against accusations of being political, since they too are
>> political. Life is political. We continue to this day trying to
>> redefine, as a society, what human rights are, & who is considered to
>> deserve them. That process is politics.
> 
> I will challenge STRONGLY the believe that all right are political in
> nature. That attitude is the path of tyranny, for if rights only come by
> the will of the government, then the government is in its right to take
> them all away.
> 
> The American Deceleration of Independence states it well (Yes, I know we
> are not all Americans):
> 
> *We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created
> equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
> Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.*
> 

With all due respect:
The American Declaration of Independence is a political document that had no 
power of authority. Soon afterwards, that same group of white, wealthy 
land-owning men wrote the US Constitution, which, in it’s original form, only 
protected the _God_ given rights of those same white, wealthy, land-owning 
folks, leaving all the other rights and protections to the states — because the 
slave owning states would only join the union under those circumstances. This 
is the doctrine of State’s rights. Indeed, several of those white, wealthy, 
land-owning folks who contributed to the creation of the US Constitution were 
in fact slave owners. Imagine that — slave owners created a document declaring 
all men are created equal! Of course, women had no rights either. And LGBTQ 
folks would be killed back in those days. Indeed, transgender folks continue to 
be at risk of death today — just because of who they are. In practice, all 
rights are granted by political power. In the United States, untold thousands 
of men and women have fought and died to protect that political power. I hope 
you continue to learn and grow with experience and come to appreciate the 
nature of life on the ground in the flesh and blood. On the ground, only 
political power and the force behind it sustains the rights we enjoy in the 
United States.

Democracy is an act. — The late John Lewis

humbly,
kls


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