Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[miss c]

SNIP~P.S. I am also not sure on the legal issues involved around the 
software  licenses here. As far as I'm aware we still require a contributors  
agreement and it is not clear that the code added to the jira was  actually 
written by the person who attached it to jira, whether that  person has a 
contributors agreement or what license was attached to that  code. At the very 
least I am guessing it is extremely bad form to  submit code you don't own and 
didn't create into the jira.

SNIP~kelly linden commented on VWR-23200:
It  would be helpful to get more specifics on exactly what information is  
desired. I have not used many TPVs so it isn't immediately apparent what  
feature set you are requesting. Am I correct to guess that you are  asking for 
a 
list of avatars and how many scripts each avatar has on  them?

I was trying to give you the examples you specifically asked for.  You already 
have this code as it is in your agreement to be TPVD approve you must give the 
code over and have it opensourced.  I have been very excited over the viewer 
code base and all the improvements that you guys have made, because of the lack 
of sim tools this is a very needed function.  Sending my Jira to the Land team 
almost seems like certain death because they haven't added any useful tools in 
the 4 years I have been here in SL.  I have to have this feature and that's why 
I pushed it, I want to migrate over to 2.0 completely, but it looks like I cant 
now.  I would rather deal with unrezzed textures, lack of media, lack of all 
the 
new fun features, than not be able to manage my sim and this is MY number one 
tool to do it with.  The resizing scripts kill SL, we are talking thousands 
upon 
thousands, upon thousands, just think how it is with 50 people in a sim.  I 
spend so much time chasing these scripts, several times a day, these scripts 
bring my sim to its knees.  The script counter is my only weapon against it.  
Guess no mesh or streaming media for me, back to Phoenix.

Anne:  Ever so often I too send out pleas for designers to stop using these, 
they wont, they say its the customers responsibility to remove them, not their 
problem.





From: Ann Otoole 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 1:52:53 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature 
request


The issue is all these crappy old obsolete resizers and texture changers.

How about a different approach? 
Step one is complete. Some of us have worked and posted for free various 
versions of the fast resizers in one script. So there is no excuse for anyone 
to 
continue building new content using the obsolete versions. 

Step 2 would be to do the same for texture changers which is a different animal.
Step 3 would be an official public awareness campaign to get creators on board.
Step 4 might be some sort of program to get people to trade in their old script 
abusing shoes and hair on new versions that are not abusive.
Step 5 might be to just kill the old abusive scripts when detected. 

Then LL can begin working on the other popular items notorious for infringing 
on 
others rights to  a stable sim they are paying tier in.

All this time an effort is going into mesh to get people to be aware of vertice 
counts. How about a similar effort around script resource abuse?

Then you don't have to sandbag regions to get to a tool for estate owners to 
eject what they feel are script abusers.






From: Kelly Linden 
To: Brandon Husbands 
Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 1:55:57 AM
Subject: Re:  [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature 
request

There are multiple issues at play here:
What I understand is that the viewer is flogging our servers to brute force 
build the data being requested.  Yes, you get the results, yes it can take a 
bit 
of time for complex avatars or objects - and a lot more work is being done than 
is necessary both by the viewer and the server. When we look at implementing a 
feature request it is not in our best interest to just look at the quickest, 
dirtiest way to get the job done. We want to implement a feature that will work 
smoothly and be something we can support into the future. Our access to and 
responsibility for the server side as well as the viewer gives us both a better 
opportunity as well as increased responsibility.

Just to be clear, the work done by other viewer teams is very good work and 
they 
have done a great job with the tools they have. I only wish we could have been 
quicker to expose better tools to them.

Secondly, while some of our teams may have a primary focus on either the viewer 
or the server, other teams - such as the Land team - are built to focus on 
products as a whole. Estate, region and parcel tools are features we feel 
deserve to be looked at and evaluated as a product from end to end. Th

Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[Erin Mallory]

I'm probably gonna get roasted here, but I actually agree with the decision to 
move it to the land team, even with the understanding that these tools might 
not be as fast to be complimented as they would be with a purely viewer 
approach.
here's my reasons:
1) If changing the server code means it can be done with less stress on the 
sim, that means sim resources can be better allocated for a smoother 
functioning sim. 
2) by making it a combination of viewer AND simulator code, they open up the 
possibility of adding in additional tools that are based of these or work in 
conjunction with these with less work later on.
3) This opens up the possibility of script monitoring and replacement later on 
to do exactly what Ann is talking about with objects which are no modify and 
whose creators no longer support their products, no longer have the old 
versions to base new versions off of, have left SL, or have died.
4) Might inspire additional tools that we haven't thought of.

I honestly think kicking this to the land team would be a good idea as long as 
they understand that they need to put some priority on this.
That said, it might be wise to clone the issue back to vwr simply so a public 
one is available to access and where progress can be tracked by the community. 

Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 23:52:53 -0700
From: missannoto...@yahoo.com
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count   feature 
request



The issue is all these crappy old obsolete resizers and texture changers.

How about a different approach? 
Step one is complete. Some of us have worked and posted for free various 
versions of the fast resizers in one script. So there is no excuse for anyone 
to continue building new content using the obsolete versions. 
Step 2 would be to do the same for texture changers which is a different animal.
Step 3 would be an official public awareness campaign to get creators on board.
Step 4 might be some sort of program to get people to trade in their old script 
abusing shoes and hair on new versions that are not abusive.
Step 5 might be to just kill the old abusive scripts when detected. 

Then LL can begin working on the other popular items notorious for infringing 
on others rights to
 a stable sim they are paying tier in.

All this time an effort is going into mesh to get people to be aware of vertice 
counts. How about a similar effort around script resource abuse?

Then you don't have to sandbag regions to get to a tool for estate owners to 
eject what they feel are script abusers.


From: Kelly Linden 
To: Brandon Husbands 
Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 1:55:57 AM
Subject: Re:
 [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

There are multiple issues at play here:
What I understand is that the viewer is flogging our servers to brute force 
build the data being requested.  Yes, you get the results, yes it can take a 
bit of time for complex avatars or objects - and a lot more work is being done 
than is necessary both by the viewer and the server. When we look at 
implementing a feature request it is not in our best interest to just look at 
the quickest, dirtiest way to get the job done. We want to implement a feature 
that will work smoothly and be something we can support into the future. Our 
access to and responsibility for the server side as well as the viewer gives us 
both a better opportunity as well as increased responsibility.


Just to be clear, the work done by other viewer teams is very good work and 
they have done a great job with the tools they have. I only wish we could have 
been quicker to expose better tools to them.

Secondly, while some of our teams may have a primary focus on either the viewer 
or the server, other teams - such as the Land team - are built to focus on 
products as a whole. Estate, region and parcel tools are features we feel 
deserve to be looked at and evaluated as a product from end to end. These 
features almost always benefit from both viewer and server development. It is 
also beneficial to keep the backlogs of related functionality together so we 
can better prioritize the features and bugs that effect the Land product 
against each other.


So, *yes* it is quite possible to implement this check in the viewer alone, and 
kudos to the team(s) that have done it. However, we feel obligated to do a more 
thorough solution by fixing the server and viewer together, and to prioritize 
this feature request against the many other feature requests for the Land 
product.


 - Kelly

P.S. I am also not sure on the legal issues involved around the software 
licenses here. As far as I'm aware we still require a contributors agreement 
and it is not clear that the code added to the jira was actually written by the 
person who attached it to jira, whether that person has a contributors 
agreement or what license was attached to that code. At the 

Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[Ann Otoole]

I give you an image of what thousands of people are wearing and dozens more buy 
daily for less than L$200: http://annotoole.com/images/nuclearshoes.png (not my 
product btw)

11456kb each shoe? seriously? So 20 avatars in a club with these uses 458MB of 
region memory? 


Yes. A public awareness campaign is sorely needed.




From: Ann Otoole 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 2:52:53 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature 
request


The issue is all these crappy old obsolete resizers and texture changers.

How about a different approach? 
Step one is complete. Some of us have worked and posted for free various 
versions of the fast resizers in one script. So there is no excuse for anyone 
to 
continue building new content using the obsolete versions. 

Step 2 would be to do the same for texture changers which is a different animal.
Step 3 would be an official public awareness campaign to get creators on board.
Step 4 might be some sort of program to get people to trade in their old script 
abusing shoes and hair on new versions that are not abusive.
Step 5 might be to just kill the old abusive scripts when detected. 

Then LL can begin working on the other popular items notorious for infringing 
on 
others rights to  a stable sim they are paying tier in.

All this time an effort is going into mesh to get people to be aware of vertice 
counts. How about a similar effort around script resource abuse?

Then you don't have to sandbag regions to get to a tool for estate owners to 
eject what they feel are script abusers.






From: Kelly Linden 
To: Brandon Husbands 
Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 1:55:57 AM
Subject: Re:  [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature 
request

There are multiple issues at play here:
What I understand is that the viewer is flogging our servers to brute force 
build the data being requested.  Yes, you get the results, yes it can take a 
bit 
of time for complex avatars or objects - and a lot more work is being done than 
is necessary both by the viewer and the server. When we look at implementing a 
feature request it is not in our best interest to just look at the quickest, 
dirtiest way to get the job done. We want to implement a feature that will work 
smoothly and be something we can support into the future. Our access to and 
responsibility for the server side as well as the viewer gives us both a better 
opportunity as well as increased responsibility.

Just to be clear, the work done by other viewer teams is very good work and 
they 
have done a great job with the tools they have. I only wish we could have been 
quicker to expose better tools to them.

Secondly, while some of our teams may have a primary focus on either the viewer 
or the server, other teams - such as the Land team - are built to focus on 
products as a whole. Estate, region and parcel tools are features we feel 
deserve to be looked at and evaluated as a product from end to end. These 
features almost always benefit from both viewer and server development. It is 
also beneficial to keep the backlogs of related functionality together so we 
can 
better prioritize the features and bugs that effect the Land product against 
each other.

So, *yes* it is quite possible to implement this check in the viewer alone, and 
kudos to the team(s) that have done it. However, we feel obligated to do a more 
thorough solution by fixing the server and viewer together, and to prioritize 
this feature request against the many other feature requests for the Land 
product.

 - Kelly

P.S. I am also not sure on the legal issues involved around the software 
licenses here. As far as I'm aware we still require a contributors agreement 
and 
it is not clear that the code added to the jira was actually written by the 
person who attached it to jira, whether that person has a contributors 
agreement 
or what license was attached to that code. At the very least I am guessing it 
is 
extremely bad form to submit code you don't own and didn't create into the jira.


On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 10:24 PM, Brandon Husbands  wrote:

Just to iterate that it does work.
>
>[22:22]  Counting scripts. Please wait.
>[22:22]  Counted scripts on object SL Exchange Magic Box white: 5
>
>Works for any object.
>The code even allows you if you have permissions to remove all scripts which 
>is 
>a desperately needed function with all the poorly scripted re-sizer scripts in 
>object.
>
>
>
>On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 12:18 AM, miss c  wrote:
>
>It isn't a server feature, this works right now in all the OTHER viewers.  I 
>attached like 10 files from the source code of all those viewers, the same 
>exact 
>files in each viewer that does this NOW.  Did you even read my Jira??  I 
>worked 
>so hard to supply every bit of information.  Unless you have allowed all 

Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[Yoz Grahame]

On 27 September 2010 23:22, Brandon Husbands  wrote:

>
> I think the major issue boils down to the feature is a major thing for sim
> owners. I think the disconnection between the populace and LL is apparent in
> this request as the residents see it as a critical feature and ll sees it in
> a different view. But this list is not one to argue philosophy nor
> semantics.
>

This thread is all of 17 hours old. It's premature to say that somehow we're
already going against the wishes of our resident base when we haven't even
had time to explore the many options here, let alone prioritise them.


> The code in question on the approach to how its done is not a bad one IMHO.
> Yes server side could probably implement it better but none of the non LL on
> this list have access to such things and must make do with what we are
> given. From continued use its not apparent to be laggy actually but I could
> be mistaken.
>

In which case, we should consider that before we rush to an implementation
which may end up worsening the problem that land owners need fixed.

It's in everyone's interest to provide something like this. Reducing lag is
a key part of the "Fast, Easy, Fun" initiative. Giving land owners better
tools to deal with sim load is a great way to divide-and-conquer on the many
causes of lag, not to mention making our highest-paying customers happier.
But if it's worth doing then it's worth doing right, and the Land team needs
time to design and prioritise it properly.

-- Yoz
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Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Dienstag, 28. September 2010, 10:09:07 schrieb Ann Otoole:
> I give you an image of what thousands of people are wearing and dozens more
> buy daily for less than L$200:
> http://annotoole.com/images/nuclearshoes.png (not my product btw)
> 
> 11456kb each shoe? seriously? So 20 avatars in a club with these uses 458MB
> of region memory?
> 
> 
> Yes. A public awareness campaign is sorely needed.


for that it needs to be known what shoe that is, who makes it, and the link to 
the SLU and blogorums post that makes the public actually aware...
i mean, checking with the script floater AFTER you bought the shoes isn't 
going to make that creator aware of what shit he/she sells by reducing their 
sales.

therefor:
name shame and blame please.
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Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[Ann Otoole]

this isn't the place for that and LL needs to weigh in on things like this. 
It isn't the only one and one person LL openly promotes also sells over 
scripted 
shoes. 

If we are going after one we have to go after the ones LL promotes as well. 
Better for LL to step up first.





From: Lance Corrimal 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 5:06:06 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature 
request

Am Dienstag, 28. September 2010, 10:09:07 schrieb Ann Otoole:
> I give you an image of what thousands of people are wearing and dozens more
> buy daily for less than L$200:
> http://annotoole.com/images/nuclearshoes.png (not my product btw)
> 
> 11456kb each shoe? seriously? So 20 avatars in a club with these uses 458MB
> of region memory?
> 
> 
> Yes. A public awareness campaign is sorely needed.


for that it needs to be known what shoe that is, who makes it, and the link to 
the SLU and blogorums post that makes the public actually aware...
i mean, checking with the script floater AFTER you bought the shoes isn't 
going to make that creator aware of what shit he/she sells by reducing their 
sales.

therefor:
name shame and blame please.
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Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[Marine Kelley]

On 28 September 2010 11:20, Ann Otoole  wrote:

> this isn't the place for that and LL needs to weigh in on things like this.
>
> It isn't the only one and one person LL openly promotes also sells over
> scripted shoes.
> If we are going after one we have to go after the ones LL promotes as well.
>
> Better for LL to step up first.
>
>
I think I know who you are talking about, Ann. I remember having sent a very
detailed notecard with script time, snapshots and explanations, proving that
the lag came from their shoes and that they really should do something to
lighten the load on the sims. One resizer and texturer script per prim on a
250-prim shoe (and you got two feet), some of the prims never even showing
because you have to actually buy an option to see them, is unacceptable.

No response from them whatsoever, and no change in their products. My
message totally fell in deaf ears. So I gave up on them and went to the
competition, who does listen to their customers. And I made a point in
telling everyone I know to do the same. End of story.

I just wish everyone was aware of how much resources they take, and that
means having the right tools for it. The upcoming script limits project were
aimed at doing that, but I guess it is suspended for the moment.
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Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[Francesco Rabbi]

Sorry for top quoting...

There Are already a lot if monoscript based on a single script for whole
item, but lazyness of creator is high and is more easy say "is a LL fault
the lag", But  this is about OT here. ;)



-- 
Sent by iPhone

Il giorno 28/set/2010, alle ore 11:27, Marine Kelley 
ha scritto:

On 28 September 2010 11:20, Ann Otoole  wrote:

> this isn't the place for that and LL needs to weigh in on things like this.
>
> It isn't the only one and one person LL openly promotes also sells over
> scripted shoes.
> If we are going after one we have to go after the ones LL promotes as well.
>
> Better for LL to step up first.
>
>
I think I know who you are talking about, Ann. I remember having sent a very
detailed notecard with script time, snapshots and explanations, proving that
the lag came from their shoes and that they really should do something to
lighten the load on the sims. One resizer and texturer script per prim on a
250-prim shoe (and you got two feet), some of the prims never even showing
because you have to actually buy an option to see them, is unacceptable.

No response from them whatsoever, and no change in their products. My
message totally fell in deaf ears. So I gave up on them and went to the
competition, who does listen to their customers. And I made a point in
telling everyone I know to do the same. End of story.

I just wish everyone was aware of how much resources they take, and that
means having the right tools for it. The upcoming script limits project were
aimed at doing that, but I guess it is suspended for the moment.

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Re: [opensource-dev] Simple thing for snapshots?

[Argent Stonecutter]

On 2010-09-27, at 13:21, Daniel Smith wrote:
> I have long thought we should be able to apply tags to inventory items (I 
> even talked with P about this in 2006..)

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-1406

This suggestion was only restricted to prims in an effort to reduce the "ZOMG 
WASTE" responses. The more general the better.
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Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Dienstag, 28. September 2010, 11:27:22 schrieb Marine Kelley:
> On 28 September 2010 11:20, Ann Otoole  wrote:
> > this isn't the place for that and LL needs to weigh in on things like
> > this.
> > 
> > It isn't the only one and one person LL openly promotes also sells over
> > scripted shoes.
> > If we are going after one we have to go after the ones LL promotes as
> > well.
> > 
> > Better for LL to step up first.
> 
> I think I know who you are talking about, Ann. I remember having sent a
> very detailed notecard with script time, snapshots and explanations,
> proving that the lag came from their shoes and that they really should do
> something to lighten the load on the sims. One resizer and texturer script
> per prim on a 250-prim shoe (and you got two feet), some of the prims
> never even showing because you have to actually buy an option to see them,
> is unacceptable.
> 
> No response from them whatsoever, and no change in their products. My
> message totally fell in deaf ears. So I gave up on them and went to the
> competition, who does listen to their customers. And I made a point in
> telling everyone I know to do the same. End of story.


could that by any chance be one of the reasons why that shop strictly refuses 
to make demo versions available... so that people could check the script load 
on those shoes before they buy?


bye,
LC

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Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[Marine Kelley]

Could be... I have not set foot there for almost a year now. lol


On 28 September 2010 12:44, Lance Corrimal wrote:

> Am Dienstag, 28. September 2010, 11:27:22 schrieb Marine Kelley:
> > On 28 September 2010 11:20, Ann Otoole  wrote:
> > > this isn't the place for that and LL needs to weigh in on things like
> > > this.
> > >
> > > It isn't the only one and one person LL openly promotes also sells over
> > > scripted shoes.
> > > If we are going after one we have to go after the ones LL promotes as
> > > well.
> > >
> > > Better for LL to step up first.
> >
> > I think I know who you are talking about, Ann. I remember having sent a
> > very detailed notecard with script time, snapshots and explanations,
> > proving that the lag came from their shoes and that they really should do
> > something to lighten the load on the sims. One resizer and texturer
> script
> > per prim on a 250-prim shoe (and you got two feet), some of the prims
> > never even showing because you have to actually buy an option to see
> them,
> > is unacceptable.
> >
> > No response from them whatsoever, and no change in their products. My
> > message totally fell in deaf ears. So I gave up on them and went to the
> > competition, who does listen to their customers. And I made a point in
> > telling everyone I know to do the same. End of story.
>
>
> could that by any chance be one of the reasons why that shop strictly
> refuses
> to make demo versions available... so that people could check the script
> load
> on those shoes before they buy?
>
>
> bye,
> LC
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[Trilo Byte]

Agreed, Yoz, it's definitely worth doing right and while it may be possible to 
get some stats with a viewer-based solution it makes sense that this should 
fall to the land team.

Trilo

On Sep 28, 2010, at 1:57 AM, Yoz Grahame wrote:

> 
> 
> On 27 September 2010 23:22, Brandon Husbands  wrote:
> 
> I think the major issue boils down to the feature is a major thing for sim 
> owners. I think the disconnection between the populace and LL is apparent in 
> this request as the residents see it as a critical feature and ll sees it in 
> a different view. But this list is not one to argue philosophy nor semantics. 
> 
> This thread is all of 17 hours old. It's premature to say that somehow we're 
> already going against the wishes of our resident base when we haven't even 
> had time to explore the many options here, let alone prioritise them.
>  
> The code in question on the approach to how its done is not a bad one IMHO. 
> Yes server side could probably implement it better but none of the non LL on 
> this list have access to such things and must make do with what we are given. 
> From continued use its not apparent to be laggy actually but I could be 
> mistaken.
> 
> In which case, we should consider that before we rush to an implementation 
> which may end up worsening the problem that land owners need fixed.
> 
> It's in everyone's interest to provide something like this. Reducing lag is a 
> key part of the "Fast, Easy, Fun" initiative. Giving land owners better tools 
> to deal with sim load is a great way to divide-and-conquer on the many causes 
> of lag, not to mention making our highest-paying customers happier. But if 
> it's worth doing then it's worth doing right, and the Land team needs time to 
> design and prioritise it properly.
> 
> -- Yoz
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Need Help Testing STORM-255

[WolfPup Lowenhar]

As I do not have a 'build farm' like @ LL maybe one of the other OS devs
that build on mac could help you out with with that Trilo.

 

From: Trilo Byte [mailto:trilobyte5...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 8:27 AM
To: WolfPup Lowenhar
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Need Help Testing STORM-255

 

If you've got a link to a compiled build for Mac, I'll be happy to install
and give it a test.

 

Cheers

 

TriloByte Zanzibar

 

On Sep 27, 2010, at 7:06 PM, WolfPup Lowenhar wrote:





Ok folk I need some help Testing the change set posted in:

 

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-255

 

I'm testing it on Windows 7 32 bit.

I need others to test it on other operating systems in both 32 and 64
environments.

Please post to the jira the OS your testing it on.

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[opensource-dev] USER STORY (was script count feature request)

[Ponzu]

USER STORY

As an OWNER, I'd like to be able to ban certain objects, or to disable
scripts in any object in my parcel/sim/estate.  Further more, when a
resident cannot enter my parcel/sim/estate because of an object or a script
they are wearing or sitting on, they get an informative message, such as
"Owner does not permit you to enter until you disable those damn shoe
scripts!"

8-)

As for the discussion of viewer vs land, I remind people to not let the
prefect kill the good.  Do the quick fix viewer side, and then let the
server side folks implement the right solution later.
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Re: [opensource-dev] USER STORY (was script count feature request)

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Dienstag, 28. September 2010, 15:52:50 schrieb Ponzu:
> USER STORY
> 
> As an OWNER, I'd like to be able to ban certain objects, or to disable
> scripts in any object in my parcel/sim/estate.  Further more, when a
> resident cannot enter my parcel/sim/estate because of an object or a script
> they are wearing or sitting on, they get an informative message, such as
> "Owner does not permit you to enter until you disable those damn shoe
> scripts!"
> 
> 8-)
> 
> As for the discussion of viewer vs land, I remind people to not let the
> prefect kill the good.  Do the quick fix viewer side, and then let the
> server side folks implement the right solution later.


seconded. repeatedly. with cherries and whipped cream on top.
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Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[miss c]

The point is this, that this option is already readily available.  I use this 
option everyday and see no problem with it.  Thousands of people all over 
Second 
Life use this option.  It is harder on the servers to have a million scripts 
than to have this tool to reduce them, I know because I can see the difference. 
 
I know ideally it would be both a server and viewer function, but I can't wait 
another 6 months hoping the feature shows up.  I realize the script Limits were 
suppose to help fix this but the problem is avatars, and oddly avatars were 
left 
out of the script limit tools, rendering them useless.  I have paid out well 
over 20 grand in tier over the past several of years, and that's not an 
exaggeration, I have yearned for more sim tools as many others have for years.  
Creating something from scratch I can understand is a long hard process, but 
this is something that is there and works.  I have to have this option cause I 
have no other real tools, therefore I can't use your viewer.  That's my point, 
I 
can't enjoy these new wonderful features only available in your viewer because 
my responsibilities and priorities as an Estate Owner come first.  So the 
argument that it would be better to do it server side still doesn't change the 
fact that not having this option is an absolute deal breaker for me, I am not 
trying to be stubborn, this is a REAL need.

TY

Miss





From: Lance Corrimal 
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Sent: Tue, September 28, 2010 5:44:08 AM
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature 
request

Am Dienstag, 28. September 2010, 11:27:22 schrieb Marine Kelley:
> On 28 September 2010 11:20, Ann Otoole  wrote:
> > this isn't the place for that and LL needs to weigh in on things like
> > this.
> > 
> > It isn't the only one and one person LL openly promotes also sells over
> > scripted shoes.
> > If we are going after one we have to go after the ones LL promotes as
> > well.
> > 
> > Better for LL to step up first.
> 
> I think I know who you are talking about, Ann. I remember having sent a
> very detailed notecard with script time, snapshots and explanations,
> proving that the lag came from their shoes and that they really should do
> something to lighten the load on the sims. One resizer and texturer script
> per prim on a 250-prim shoe (and you got two feet), some of the prims
> never even showing because you have to actually buy an option to see them,
> is unacceptable.
> 
> No response from them whatsoever, and no change in their products. My
> message totally fell in deaf ears. So I gave up on them and went to the
> competition, who does listen to their customers. And I made a point in
> telling everyone I know to do the same. End of story.


could that by any chance be one of the reasons why that shop strictly refuses 
to make demo versions available... so that people could check the script load 
on those shoes before they buy?


bye,
LC

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[opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

[Kent Quirk (Q Linden)]

Hello, everyone. 

We've had a good first few weeks of the Snowstorm team. It took a little longer 
than we'd hoped, but we have launched the Viewer 2 Beta for version 2.2.0, and 
we're continuing to move forward (new beta very soon).

Much of our success in this period can be attributed to the unstinting efforts 
of Tofu and Aimee, who have really done amazing work in the last few weeks. 

We at Linden Lab made a corporate decision back in the spring to close down our 
entire presence in the UK; all UK-based Lindens were affected, with varying 
timing. This means that Tofu and Aimee will be no longer be Lindens after 
Thursday. 

Both of them have worked on my team for a long time now, and I consider them 
both friends as well as colleagues. Please join me in thanking them and wishing 
them the best in the future. They will be missed. 

Cheers to both,

 Q 

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

[Tammy Nowotny]

Thanks Tofu & Aimee... and where is Jack based now?

--Tammy Nowotny

Kent Quirk (Q Linden) wrote:
> Hello, everyone. 
>
> We've had a good first few weeks of the Snowstorm team. It took a little 
> longer than we'd hoped, but we have launched the Viewer 2 Beta for version 
> 2.2.0, and we're continuing to move forward (new beta very soon).
>
> Much of our success in this period can be attributed to the unstinting 
> efforts of Tofu and Aimee, who have really done amazing work in the last few 
> weeks. 
>
> We at Linden Lab made a corporate decision back in the spring to close down 
> our entire presence in the UK; all UK-based Lindens were affected, with 
> varying timing. This means that Tofu and Aimee will be no longer be Lindens 
> after Thursday. 
>
> Both of them have worked on my team for a long time now, and I consider them 
> both friends as well as colleagues. Please join me in thanking them and 
> wishing them the best in the future. They will be missed. 
>
> Cheers to both,
>
>  Q 
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

[Latif Khalifa]

Thank you Aimee and Tofu. Your departure is a great loss for LL and
Second Life as a whole.

Latif


On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden)  
wrote:
> Hello, everyone.
>
> We've had a good first few weeks of the Snowstorm team. It took a little 
> longer than we'd hoped, but we have launched the Viewer 2 Beta for version 
> 2.2.0, and we're continuing to move forward (new beta very soon).
>
> Much of our success in this period can be attributed to the unstinting 
> efforts of Tofu and Aimee, who have really done amazing work in the last few 
> weeks.
>
> We at Linden Lab made a corporate decision back in the spring to close down 
> our entire presence in the UK; all UK-based Lindens were affected, with 
> varying timing. This means that Tofu and Aimee will be no longer be Lindens 
> after Thursday.
>
> Both of them have worked on my team for a long time now, and I consider them 
> both friends as well as colleagues. Please join me in thanking them and 
> wishing them the best in the future. They will be missed.
>
> Cheers to both,
>
>     Q
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

[Ponzu]

Best wishes to Tofu and Aimee for the future.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

[WolfPup Lowenhar]

I'm said to hear Tofu and Aimee a no longer going to be here as Linden's I
do hope they will still be around to help though even if it is only as
members of the open source community, under slightly different names.

-Original Message-
From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Kent Quirk
(Q Linden)
Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 2010 2:33 PM
To: opensource-dev
Subject: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

Hello, everyone. 

We've had a good first few weeks of the Snowstorm team. It took a little
longer than we'd hoped, but we have launched the Viewer 2 Beta for version
2.2.0, and we're continuing to move forward (new beta very soon).

Much of our success in this period can be attributed to the unstinting
efforts of Tofu and Aimee, who have really done amazing work in the last few
weeks. 

We at Linden Lab made a corporate decision back in the spring to close down
our entire presence in the UK; all UK-based Lindens were affected, with
varying timing. This means that Tofu and Aimee will be no longer be Lindens
after Thursday. 

Both of them have worked on my team for a long time now, and I consider them
both friends as well as colleagues. Please join me in thanking them and
wishing them the best in the future. They will be missed. 

Cheers to both,

 Q 

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

[Moriz Gupte]

What surprises me is that 'people who made much of the success possible' are
'leaving'? Is this a pattern? I really cannot imagine the kind of pressure
you LLs are working under, I mean what kind of workplace is LL??
R

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Ponzu  wrote:

> Best wishes to Tofu and Aimee for the future.
>
>
>
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-- 
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
*Rameshsharma Ramloll* PhD, *Research Associate Professor*, Idaho State
University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-282-5333
Blog ,
LinkedIn
, Play2Train 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

[Erin Mallory]

They aren't leaving by choice.  LL fired all the UK based lindens.  I won't go 
into saying how stupid a decision it was.  But I do wish tofu and Aimee the 
best of luck, and I hope they find really good jobs soon.
Take care Aimee and Tofu, godspeed, and please feel free to friend one or more 
of my alts so you can stay in touch :) 
cummere mayo 
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:31:35 -0600
From: moriz.gu...@gmail.com
To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

What surprises me is that 'people who made much of the success possible' are 
'leaving'? Is this a pattern? I really cannot imagine the kind of pressure you 
LLs are working under, I mean what kind of workplace is LL??
R

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Ponzu  wrote:

Best wishes to Tofu and Aimee for the future.  

 

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-- 
'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'

Rameshsharma Ramloll PhD, Research Associate Professor, Idaho State University, 
Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-282-5333
Blog, LinkedIn, Play2Train




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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

[Marine Kelley]

Best wishes Tofu and Aimee, if you survived LL you can survive anything. So
you'll be ok ! It's sad to see two good devs leave though.


On 28 September 2010 21:45, Erin Mallory wrote:

>
> They aren't leaving by choice.  LL fired all the UK based lindens.  I won't
> go into saying how stupid a decision it was.  But I do wish tofu and Aimee
> the best of luck, and I hope they find really good jobs soon.
> Take care Aimee and Tofu, godspeed, and please feel free to friend one or
> more of my alts so you can stay in touch :)
> cummere mayo
> --
> Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 13:31:35 -0600
> From: moriz.gu...@gmail.com
> To: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes
>
>
> What surprises me is that 'people who made much of the success possible'
> are 'leaving'? Is this a pattern? I really cannot imagine the kind of
> pressure you LLs are working under, I mean what kind of workplace is LL??
> R
>
> On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 1:15 PM, Ponzu  wrote:
>
> Best wishes to Tofu and Aimee for the future.
>
>
>
> ___
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>
>
>
>
> --
> 'Consider how the lilies grow. They do not labor or spin.'
> *Rameshsharma Ramloll* PhD, *Research Associate Professor*, Idaho State
> University, Pocatello, ID 83209 Tel: 208-282-5333
> Blog , 
> LinkedIn
> , Play2Train 
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes (more Lindens fired)

[Daniel Smith]

Much of our success in this period can be attributed to the unstinting
efforts of Tofu and Aimee, who have really done amazing work in the last few
weeks.

We at Linden Lab made a corporate decision back in the spring to close down
our entire presence in the UK; all UK-based Lindens were affected, with
varying timing. This means that Tofu and Aimee will be no longer be Lindens
after Thursday.


Shakes head.   This is pathetic.  One wonders when they were told.

What should be foremost for the Snowstorm project is to give the developer
community a sense of belonging, of a team, and to have ample reason to spend
their cycles contributing here.

.. Because, after all, there are a variety of venues where a talented dev
can contribute to the viewer.  LL is not the only game in town, and that is
a good thing.

In my mind, this is another in a series of roadblocks to success.  It leaves
a bad taste in the mouths of.. well, I can speak for me.. I wont speak for
the community.  Another big roadblock is Oz... the guy was only at LL for 3
months before announcing "no 1.x UI" at SLCC.  Why is someone with next to
no SL experience in such a key role, determining much of the outcome of the
viewer?  He has next to no history - the community does.  It is Tofu and
Aimee that should be allowed to work remotely, and it is Oz that should be
in a role where his heavy handedness does not become a roadblock to success.

The trends are very clear to me.  The 1.x and 2.x codebases cannot compete
with something like Unity (in 2 years, they would still not be close to
where a potential Unity 2.6 foundation would be, if started today).   A 3.x
codebase with full plugin support from day 1 might have a chance.

All roads are leading to OpenSim + Unity client.

Tofu and Aimee, thanks for your adept efforts.  You will be missed.

Daniel
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes (more Lindens fired)

[aklo]

Aimee & Tofu - the information you've shared is only matched by your great
attitudes!  i know i've sensed only a small part of the awesome work y'all
have been doing - i totally agree with all the others that you will be
missed.

Best wishes for everything!!

- AK

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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

[JB Hancroft]

Tofu and Aimee,

I haven't been as closed to the Snowstorm efforts as others, but I've
observed the results of your focus and hard work.
Best of luck in wherever you end up working.

Best,
- JB

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) 
wrote:

> Hello, everyone.
>
> We've had a good first few weeks of the Snowstorm team. It took a little
> longer than we'd hoped, but we have launched the Viewer 2 Beta for version
> 2.2.0, and we're continuing to move forward (new beta very soon).
>
> Much of our success in this period can be attributed to the unstinting
> efforts of Tofu and Aimee, who have really done amazing work in the last few
> weeks.
>
> We at Linden Lab made a corporate decision back in the spring to close down
> our entire presence in the UK; all UK-based Lindens were affected, with
> varying timing. This means that Tofu and Aimee will be no longer be Lindens
> after Thursday.
>
> Both of them have worked on my team for a long time now, and I consider
> them both friends as well as colleagues. Please join me in thanking them and
> wishing them the best in the future. They will be missed.
>
> Cheers to both,
>
> Q
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowstorm changes

[Zai Lynch]

Aimee & Tofu: Despite my better judgement, I still hoped you'd survive the
impending UK lay-offs somehow. Sad to see you go.
I'll gladly jump in in the collective praise: You did a great job.

The same is true for at least Simone, Davy and Babbage, albeit in different
fields. I'm not sure who else is located in the UK... But I wish you well.
Thanks for contributing to our SL.

--zai

On Tue, Sep 28, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Kent Quirk (Q Linden) 
wrote:

> Hello, everyone.
>
> We've had a good first few weeks of the Snowstorm team. It took a little
> longer than we'd hoped, but we have launched the Viewer 2 Beta for version
> 2.2.0, and we're continuing to move forward (new beta very soon).
>
> Much of our success in this period can be attributed to the unstinting
> efforts of Tofu and Aimee, who have really done amazing work in the last few
> weeks.
>
> We at Linden Lab made a corporate decision back in the spring to close down
> our entire presence in the UK; all UK-based Lindens were affected, with
> varying timing. This means that Tofu and Aimee will be no longer be Lindens
> after Thursday.
>
> Both of them have worked on my team for a long time now, and I consider
> them both friends as well as colleagues. Please join me in thanking them and
> wishing them the best in the future. They will be missed.
>
> Cheers to both,
>
> Q
>
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-- 
@ZaiLynch 
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Re: [opensource-dev] 2.0 Absolute Dealbreaker - script count feature request

[aklo]

Hey People!

Please excuse me while i say something for all the n00bs in the world,
whether their "inexperience" is their fault or not, and without
judging anyone's learning speed, patience, or whatever else those with
criticize the others who are without for lacking.

Maybe i'm just "challenged" myself, but i haven't found
anything, anywhere that comes even close to being a "one stop"
resource for builders, scripters, land owners, etc.  Even the user
guide stuff could use better organization and a "more engaging"
presentation.

It's not like a bunch of us don't have the skills needed to put
together a totally killer instruction manual for SecondLife like the one
you don't get (but really ought to) for FL (First Life).  It's the
time, charter, & all the other stuff you have to have to eat & pay
tier for in all your lives that gets in the way of doing what i guess too
many people don't value enough to hire someone to do a good job of.

It's pretty sad, too, because i think there's easily enough active SL
premium residents that 10 cents a month from each of them would fund an
awesome project, maybe even with some revenue opportunities for
LL.

What i mean is sometthing like a book that's a website (best with
continually updated information) that does the A to Z thing for all the
builder & scripter tasks with regular resident & landowner
sections to go with it.  Not just recipes, but recipes with
explanations.

A lot of the material needed to start a project like that has already
been written, it just needs to be all put all together and organized
better.  The next step could be to get together a list of all the
things people build and script for a comprehensive set of tutorials that
covered everything from t-shirts and shoes to complete avatars, vehicles,
weapons, shopping malls, and applications for all those advanced features
that curious people screw everyone else up with while they
experiment.  The finished product would have to include a complete
set of sample textures, scripts, animations, etc., along with usage tips
for at least all the common RL tools, like Photoshop, Blender, Qavimator,
and so on.

Links to other websites like Adobe,Cinemacchiato
Machinima and all that are great for support, but something that has a
unified Look & Feel has to happen first. 

If people already aren't using the material & functionality
available, that says the stuff hasn't been made attractive enough, or easy
enough to understand, or obviously useful enough for them to be unable to
stop themselves from taking advantage of the help & instruction.

The point is, if we want people to behave and do things right, it's not
all that productive to just expect them to figure it all out for
themselves, especially when there's so much bad info going around - some
of it produced by people with social adjustment issues and plain malicious
intent.

And, it's kinda rude to tell someone to take their whatever and go hang
out in another sim without trying to help them learn how to do
better.  Not having enough understanding just creates resentment and
more unhelpful behavior.

Sorry about the long message. 

- AK


On 28 September 2010 11:20, Ann
Otoole 
 

 

 

 






 
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Re: [opensource-dev] My latest build, objects on self are back in Mouselook

[Dave Booth]

  On 9/28/2010 20:41, Ponzu wrote:
> Just reporting.  Not a big deal.  Wasn't this fixed?
>
> Actually, I sort of like it.  My hair hangs over my eyes, and I am 
> looking out thru my glasses, just like real life 8-)
>

I've not seen a fixed daily build - makes using aimed weaponry or 
piloting a mouselook-steered vehicle nigh impossible. As far as I can 
tell this one has persisted in all viewers since 2.1
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Re: [opensource-dev] My latest build, objects on self are back in Mouselook

[Kadah]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Yup, jiras on both since then too. I'm surprised it wasn't listed as a
known issue on the beta.

https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-2
https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/ECC-3


On 9/28/2010 6:45 PM, Dave Booth wrote:
>   On 9/28/2010 20:41, Ponzu wrote:
>> Just reporting.  Not a big deal.  Wasn't this fixed?
>>
>> Actually, I sort of like it.  My hair hangs over my eyes, and I am 
>> looking out thru my glasses, just like real life 8-)
>>
> 
> I've not seen a fixed daily build - makes using aimed weaponry or 
> piloting a mouselook-steered vehicle nigh impossible. As far as I can 
> tell this one has persisted in all viewers since 2.1
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Re: [opensource-dev] Need Help Testing STORM-255

[Ponzu]

Worked on my iMac...Added comment to Jira


On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 10:06 PM, WolfPup Lowenhar
wrote:

>  Ok folk I need some help Testing the change set posted in:
>
>
>
> https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/STORM-255
>
>
>
>
>
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