Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Henri Beauchamp]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:55:29 +1100, Darmath wrote:

> Marine Kelley wrote:
> > Besides I don't see why on Earth any RL info should be disclosed to 
> > everyone in the open, it is nobody's business except LL's who is 
> > making and publishing third party viewers to connect to their grid. To 
> > me the average developer of a third party viewer should be allowed to 
> > remain anonymous, since the real griefers are never going to publish 
> > their data anyway. And since a viewer developer cannot be held 
> > responsible for the use of their viewer (despite what the policy 
> > implies), this is a moot point.
>
> I disagree. It's actually the business of the user of the client who the 
> relevant developer is.

Because you can actually know who are *all* the real persons behind *any*
Open Source project ?... You know, people do use pseudonyms a lot, on
Internet... Anyway, no where in the GPL will you find that a developper
*must* disclose their true identity.

SL raises a further concern for developpers: as an adult role-playing
game (yes, I know, some people think SL is not game, but it is for many),
being able to put a real name behind an avatar means that you can discover
the most intimate kinks of a real person. This would be a huge, unacceptable
breach in this person's privacy.

Henri.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Darren Gansberg]

Henri Beauchamp wrote:
>
> Because you can actually know who are *all* the real persons behind *any*
> Open Source project ?... You know, people do use pseudonyms a lot, on
> Internet... Anyway, no where in the GPL will you find that a developper
> *must* disclose their true identity
No of course you can't. Additionally the developer shouldn't be forced 
to disclose their identity. What i was taking exception with was the 
view that the identity of the developer is no one's business. As i said 
it's the users business. But the appropriate solution to the user not 
knowing the identity of the person responsible for writing a piece of 
code is for the user not to install and use that program on their system 
if they arent comfortable of knowing its source. That said i don't think 
it's necessarily a great attitude to take that your not prepared to put 
your identity to your own doings. And i adopt that view to all manner of 
things software development aside.

Darren
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Marine Kelley]

Usually development and publishing companies have an anonymous contact  
page on their website, and no easy way of getting to know the identity  
of any of their employees (besides the executives). And this is for  
privacy and competition reasons. It should not be any different for  
hobbyist developers who cannot afford to throw their name in the open.  
Anyway there should be no question of that since you have signed up  
for an account or more to LL in agreement to their privacy policies in  
the first place.

Besides, you can't find the full name of a Linden Lab employee unless  
they disclose it themselves (I think, maybe there is a public register  
somewhere or something). I don't see why we, the developers who work  
partly for LL at improving their platform for free, would have less  
rights to privacy than the people who are paid by them and who are  
protected.

This is a non-issue anyway, most people will not agree to expose their  
RL identity on LL's website just to list a piece of work of theirs,  
unless said piece of work is required to be listed in order to be  
accepted on their grid. And I have not read anything anywhere that was  
even remotely implying such a thing. If this was required, expect most  
viewers to be stopped dead in their tracks.



On 25 févr. 2010, at 11:10, Darren Gansberg  wrote:

> Henri Beauchamp wrote:
>>
>> Because you can actually know who are *all* the real persons behind  
>> *any*
>> Open Source project ?... You know, people do use pseudonyms a lot, on
>> Internet... Anyway, no where in the GPL will you find that a  
>> developper
>> *must* disclose their true identity
> No of course you can't. Additionally the developer shouldn't be forced
> to disclose their identity. What i was taking exception with was the
> view that the identity of the developer is no one's business. As i  
> said
> it's the users business. But the appropriate solution to the user not
> knowing the identity of the person responsible for writing a piece of
> code is for the user not to install and use that program on their  
> system
> if they arent comfortable of knowing its source. That said i don't  
> think
> it's necessarily a great attitude to take that your not prepared to  
> put
> your identity to your own doings. And i adopt that view to all  
> manner of
> things software development aside.
>
> Darren
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Henri Beauchamp]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 21:10:21 +1100, Darren Gansberg wrote:

> Henri Beauchamp wrote:
> >
> > Because you can actually know who are *all* the real persons behind *any*
> > Open Source project ?... You know, people do use pseudonyms a lot, on
> > Internet... Anyway, no where in the GPL will you find that a developper
> > *must* disclose their true identity
>
> No of course you can't. Additionally the developer shouldn't be forced 
> to disclose their identity. What i was taking exception with was the 
> view that the identity of the developer is no one's business. As i said 
> it's the users business. But the appropriate solution to the user not 
> knowing the identity of the person responsible for writing a piece of 
> code is for the user not to install and use that program on their system 
> if they arent comfortable of knowing its source.

Knowing the source doesn't mean knowing the real person. Even an avatar
got a reputation, which is directly linked to the nature of the true person
behind it: users will know that this or that avatar have a good reputaion
or not, and can be trusted or not, based on what their player already did
under this avatar's name.
Anyway, knowing the real name of a source won't give you more guarantee
about this person's "trustability".
With Open Source software, the guarantee comes from the fact the sources
are published (making it it possible to spot malicious code), and that you
can also verify (by rebuilding the porject yourself from those sources)
that no additional, secret/malevolent code was inserted in the published
binaries.

> That said i don't think it's necessarily a great attitude to take that
> your not prepared to put your identity to your own doings. And i adopt
> that view to all manner of things software development aside.

Even novel writers often use pseudonyms...

The problem is not about not being "prepared to put your identity to your
own doings", it's all about the cross referencing that search engines such
as Google allow: if I put my true name behind the Cool SL Viewer, then it
also means that anyone Googling that true name could find out what are my
kinks (profiles are also Googled), then who I am in Real Life, what's my
job, where I live, etc, etc... Would *you* be ready for this to happen to
*you* ?  I'm not !

Henri.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2010 11:38:19 schrieb Henri Beauchamp:

> The problem is not about not being "prepared to put your identity to your
> own doings", it's all about the cross referencing that search engines such
> as Google allow: if I put my true name behind the Cool SL Viewer, then it
> also means that anyone Googling that true name could find out what are my
> kinks (profiles are also Googled), then who I am in Real Life, what's my
> job, where I live, etc, etc... Would *you* be ready for this to happen to
> *you* ?  I'm not !


given the great work that you deliver with the cool viewer, me and a few 
sixpacks of beer wouldnt mind being able to google your RL location ;)
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Henri Beauchamp]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 11:57:21 +0100, Lance Corrimal wrote:

> Am Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2010 11:38:19 schrieb Henri Beauchamp:
> 
> > The problem is not about not being "prepared to put your identity to your
> > own doings", it's all about the cross referencing that search engines such
> > as Google allow: if I put my true name behind the Cool SL Viewer, then it
> > also means that anyone Googling that true name could find out what are my
> > kinks (profiles are also Googled), then who I am in Real Life, what's my
> > job, where I live, etc, etc... Would *you* be ready for this to happen to
> > *you* ?  I'm not !
>
> given the great work that you deliver with the cool viewer, me and a few 
> sixpacks of beer wouldnt mind being able to google your RL location ;)

But then it is *my* decision to give away my true identity to people *I*
trust... and possibly invite them to drink those beers at my home. ;-)

It's very different from allowing "BigBrotheresque" things to happen by
giving away each and every most intimate detail about yourself for anyone
with an Internet connection to see you "naked" on the internet...

I know it's very much popular for now to open blogs where you say to the
world how bad you were constipated during the last week, or all sorts
of immensely interesting stuff like that, and that "social networks"
(actually a good way for commercial companies and even government
intelligence agencies to gather tons of data about you) where you give
up all sorts of details about your life are very popular, but I, for one
would never do such an irresponsible thing.

My guess is that we will soon hear about discriminations based on
private info gathered on Internet (Employee: "oh, why can't I get this
job, sir ?" - Employer: "Because you use your avatar in SL to rolepay
BDSM, you sicko !").

Again, feel free to call me paranoid, but I'm better be safe than
sorry...

Henri.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Lance Corrimal]

Am Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2010 12:18:23 schrieb Henri Beauchamp:

> My guess is that we will soon hear about discriminations based on
> private info gathered on Internet (Employee: "oh, why can't I get this
> job, sir ?" - Employer: "Because you use your avatar in SL to rolepay
> BDSM, you sicko !").


given how MANY people are really kinky on SL I'd expect that to turn out the 
other way:

"You're hired but only if you tie me to this cross and take me from behind you 
stud you! I KNOW You like that stuff!"
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Henri Beauchamp]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 12:31:13 +0100, Lance Corrimal wrote:

> Am Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2010 12:18:23 schrieb Henri Beauchamp:
> 
> > My guess is that we will soon hear about discriminations based on
> > private info gathered on Internet (Employee: "oh, why can't I get this
> > job, sir ?" - Employer: "Because you use your avatar in SL to rolepay
> > BDSM, you sicko !").
> 
> 
> given how MANY people are really kinky on SL I'd expect that to turn out the 
> other way:
> 
> "You're hired but only if you tie me to this cross and take me from behind 
> you 
> stud you! I KNOW You like that stuff!"

Lol !  I'll consider that option...
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Carlo Wood]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 12:34:17AM +0100, Henri Beauchamp wrote:
> As far as I am concerned I will not provide such info to Linden Lab as
> I consider it a breach of my privacy (call me paranoid if you want).

Same here.

As some people know, I have a large background with IRC. Admins and IRC
operators that used their Real Life name (mostly through email), have
been known to be called at home on their private phone with death threats
to their kids.

If LL demands the RL info of developers to be published, then please
make an example by starting with listing all the Real Life names and
addresses of the Linden employees.

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Carlo Wood]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 11:48:38PM -0700, Lawson English wrote:
> Actually that is NOT common sense. When the author of some
> intellectual bit of property agrees to distribution, its generally
> for existing channels of distribution only. The SL TOS only applies
> to intellectual property distributed by Linden Lab in the manner
> that the content creator agreed to. Someone ELSE coming along and
> saying "oh, full perms means I own the IP rights to this and can
> take it anywhere I please and do anything I want in any way I want
> without consideration for the original creator" goes against even
> the CC license, and the LL full perms isn't the CC license or any
> kind of abbreviation of it.

So ok, the entry in the TPV Policy has to be changed then.

Note that is also makes the 'Save to RAW terrain file' illegal
in most cases (it's almost never the owner of the sim that created
the terrain all by himself alone). Are we going to remove this
function from the viewer?

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Henri Beauchamp]

On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:49:01 -0600, Argent Stonecutter wrote:

> On 2010-02-23, at 15:43, Robin Cornelius wrote:
> > Also any one using mono with libomv has an issue as that cannot get
> > the adaptor mac address and passes a NULL mac address, in the past LL
> > have allowed a null mac address as they knew of this problem, clearly
> > now though thats a breach of 2c part i.
> 
> Not to mention that any device using SLIP or PPP, (and probably other  
> point-to-point protocols that don't require an address at the physical  
> layer) may not have a MAC address or ANY analogous hardware layer  
> address (even a PSTN). TCP/IP does not imply Ethernet.
> 
> Admittedly this is not likely to be a common scenario, but the whole  
> idea that a MAC address is a unique identifier for a device is based  
> on a deep-seated confusion about the network stack.

And today, LL seems to have pulled the plug off already for clients not
prociding the MAC address on connection. Here is a copy of the ticket I
just opened (I propose that everyone on this list using a text client
opens the same kind of ticket):

Summary: I cannot login any more using Mono-based, text only clients

Details:

Today I cannot connect any more when using text only "viewers" (clients)
which are written in C# (Mono), such as OMV-light and Radegast.

I get the following error:
"Second Life cannot be accessed from this computer."
but I can still connect from the same computer using either an official
or full fledged third parties viewer.

I therefore deduce, that you just disallowed the connection for clients
not transmitting the MAC address of the Ethernet card the viewers are
connected through (Mono/C# won't allow to retrieve such info).
While LL has the right to change their policy about which client can
connect or not to their service, I think it would be only normal to let
a reasonable amount of time for the developers of third parties
viewers/clients to adapt their software and make it compliant before such
a policy is enforced.

Seeing how the TPV policy was published only a couple of days ago, I don't
see how OMV-light and Radegast developers could adapt fast enough !

Please note also that not all network interfaces got a MAC address (for
example, an USB ADSL MODEM could or could not have such an address,
depending entirely on its driver, and PPP links via MODEMs don't have a
MAC address either), so basically, you are denying connection to SL to
any resident not using a Ethernet card to connect to Internet !...
This is pretty unreasonable too...

Please, allow again the connection via text only clients (the only way to
stay in contact all day long with your customers without having to run a
viewer which eats up half of your memory and CPU power !).
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Carlo Wood]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:33:58AM +0100, Marine Kelley wrote:
> This is a non-issue anyway, most people will not agree to expose their  
> RL identity on LL's website just to list a piece of work of theirs,  
> unless said piece of work is required to be listed in order to be  
> accepted on their grid. And I have not read anything anywhere that was  
> even remotely implying such a thing. If this was required, expect most  
> viewers to be stopped dead in their tracks.

Very true. This list is going to stay empty, nobody is going to
add their real name, and if it was required in order to get a
viewer to connect at all they will just stop developing it; or
spoof the indentification of the viewer.

It's too ridiculous for words.

And what exactly is the use of all this, except to make the life
of honest users harder? Rogue viewers/developers will just spoof
the indentification anyway; they are not interested in being
listed or following the TPV policy.

Seems to me that Linden Lab is planning for a follow up with
more enforcement, as soon as most popular viewers are actually
on that list for a while. I therefore think it's better for
all of us if that list stays entirely empty :/ [to clarify:
that is better for progress and development than when in the
end you need some digital signature binary-only plugin in
order to connect].

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Gareth Nelson]

There's a warranty disclaimer in the GPL, while that doesn't protect
developers from liability for active malice on their part, it does
protect them from any harm caused by bugs.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of releasing any code if I was required
to warrant it against all possible damages, as the damages with freely
distributable software can be effectively infinite. Of course, nothing
stops anyone who wants it from contracting with a developer for a
support contract or warranty, and the warranty disclaimer doesn't
allow people to GPL a virus and disclaim criminal liability. For the
record, anyone who wants to buy a support contract for any code I
might release should feel free to contact me so we can talk.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 1:55 AM, Darmath  wrote:
> Marine Kelley wrote:
>> Besides I don't see why on Earth any RL info should be disclosed to
>> everyone in the open, it is nobody's business except LL's who is
>> making and publishing third party viewers to connect to their grid. To
>> me the average developer of a third party viewer should be allowed to
>> remain anonymous, since the real griefers are never going to publish
>> their data anyway. And since a viewer developer cannot be held
>> responsible for the use of their viewer (despite what the policy
>> implies), this is a moot point.
> I disagree. It's actually the business of the user of the client who the
> relevant developer is. However that said I agree a developer should be
> able to remain anonymous should they choose. The reality is it's in the
> users hands whether he, she or it, will use a client from an unknown
> source or not. If they choose that they don't want to run a program on
> their computer from an unknown source then that is a choice for them to
> make.
>
> Additionally I  seem to be reading a lot seeking to suggest that
> developers in open source projects cannot be held liable with respect to
> the damage that the software developed may do to a user of that
> software. Whilst you can't judge each and every case in a vacuum I
> believe that notion is somewhat misguided. In my opinion the only thing
> that protects such persons from actually being sued is their ability to
> remain anonymous. After all it is kind of hard to sue people that are
> hiding in the shadows ;-). That doesn't mean that unknown individuals
> aren't actually liable. Liability and the practical ability to sue
> people are two different things.
>
> Kind regards
>
> Darren
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Gareth Nelson]

I wonder what the official LL response would be if you gave a randomly
generated MAC in these situations, or some kind of hash from other
aspects of the hardware -any lindens wish to comment?

The other thing of course is defining what "this computer" means for
those of us who like to fiddle with our hardware. Personally i'm often
swapping components out of my desktop including harddrives and
ethernet cards.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Henri Beauchamp  wrote:
> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:49:01 -0600, Argent Stonecutter wrote:
>
>> On 2010-02-23, at 15:43, Robin Cornelius wrote:
>> > Also any one using mono with libomv has an issue as that cannot get
>> > the adaptor mac address and passes a NULL mac address, in the past LL
>> > have allowed a null mac address as they knew of this problem, clearly
>> > now though thats a breach of 2c part i.
>>
>> Not to mention that any device using SLIP or PPP, (and probably other
>> point-to-point protocols that don't require an address at the physical
>> layer) may not have a MAC address or ANY analogous hardware layer
>> address (even a PSTN). TCP/IP does not imply Ethernet.
>>
>> Admittedly this is not likely to be a common scenario, but the whole
>> idea that a MAC address is a unique identifier for a device is based
>> on a deep-seated confusion about the network stack.
>
> And today, LL seems to have pulled the plug off already for clients not
> prociding the MAC address on connection. Here is a copy of the ticket I
> just opened (I propose that everyone on this list using a text client
> opens the same kind of ticket):
>
> Summary: I cannot login any more using Mono-based, text only clients
>
> Details:
>
> Today I cannot connect any more when using text only "viewers" (clients)
> which are written in C# (Mono), such as OMV-light and Radegast.
>
> I get the following error:
> "Second Life cannot be accessed from this computer."
> but I can still connect from the same computer using either an official
> or full fledged third parties viewer.
>
> I therefore deduce, that you just disallowed the connection for clients
> not transmitting the MAC address of the Ethernet card the viewers are
> connected through (Mono/C# won't allow to retrieve such info).
> While LL has the right to change their policy about which client can
> connect or not to their service, I think it would be only normal to let
> a reasonable amount of time for the developers of third parties
> viewers/clients to adapt their software and make it compliant before such
> a policy is enforced.
>
> Seeing how the TPV policy was published only a couple of days ago, I don't
> see how OMV-light and Radegast developers could adapt fast enough !
>
> Please note also that not all network interfaces got a MAC address (for
> example, an USB ADSL MODEM could or could not have such an address,
> depending entirely on its driver, and PPP links via MODEMs don't have a
> MAC address either), so basically, you are denying connection to SL to
> any resident not using a Ethernet card to connect to Internet !...
> This is pretty unreasonable too...
>
> Please, allow again the connection via text only clients (the only way to
> stay in contact all day long with your customers without having to run a
> viewer which eats up half of your memory and CPU power !).
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Gareth Nelson]

I can confirm that my installation of libomv's TestClient still
connects fine - version 0.6.3

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Gareth Nelson  wrote:
> I wonder what the official LL response would be if you gave a randomly
> generated MAC in these situations, or some kind of hash from other
> aspects of the hardware -any lindens wish to comment?
>
> The other thing of course is defining what "this computer" means for
> those of us who like to fiddle with our hardware. Personally i'm often
> swapping components out of my desktop including harddrives and
> ethernet cards.
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 1:28 PM, Henri Beauchamp  wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Feb 2010 05:49:01 -0600, Argent Stonecutter wrote:
>>
>>> On 2010-02-23, at 15:43, Robin Cornelius wrote:
>>> > Also any one using mono with libomv has an issue as that cannot get
>>> > the adaptor mac address and passes a NULL mac address, in the past LL
>>> > have allowed a null mac address as they knew of this problem, clearly
>>> > now though thats a breach of 2c part i.
>>>
>>> Not to mention that any device using SLIP or PPP, (and probably other
>>> point-to-point protocols that don't require an address at the physical
>>> layer) may not have a MAC address or ANY analogous hardware layer
>>> address (even a PSTN). TCP/IP does not imply Ethernet.
>>>
>>> Admittedly this is not likely to be a common scenario, but the whole
>>> idea that a MAC address is a unique identifier for a device is based
>>> on a deep-seated confusion about the network stack.
>>
>> And today, LL seems to have pulled the plug off already for clients not
>> prociding the MAC address on connection. Here is a copy of the ticket I
>> just opened (I propose that everyone on this list using a text client
>> opens the same kind of ticket):
>>
>> Summary: I cannot login any more using Mono-based, text only clients
>>
>> Details:
>>
>> Today I cannot connect any more when using text only "viewers" (clients)
>> which are written in C# (Mono), such as OMV-light and Radegast.
>>
>> I get the following error:
>> "Second Life cannot be accessed from this computer."
>> but I can still connect from the same computer using either an official
>> or full fledged third parties viewer.
>>
>> I therefore deduce, that you just disallowed the connection for clients
>> not transmitting the MAC address of the Ethernet card the viewers are
>> connected through (Mono/C# won't allow to retrieve such info).
>> While LL has the right to change their policy about which client can
>> connect or not to their service, I think it would be only normal to let
>> a reasonable amount of time for the developers of third parties
>> viewers/clients to adapt their software and make it compliant before such
>> a policy is enforced.
>>
>> Seeing how the TPV policy was published only a couple of days ago, I don't
>> see how OMV-light and Radegast developers could adapt fast enough !
>>
>> Please note also that not all network interfaces got a MAC address (for
>> example, an USB ADSL MODEM could or could not have such an address,
>> depending entirely on its driver, and PPP links via MODEMs don't have a
>> MAC address either), so basically, you are denying connection to SL to
>> any resident not using a Ethernet card to connect to Internet !...
>> This is pretty unreasonable too...
>>
>> Please, allow again the connection via text only clients (the only way to
>> stay in contact all day long with your customers without having to run a
>> viewer which eats up half of your memory and CPU power !).
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>
>
> --
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> Printcrime by Cory Doctrow
>
> Please avoid sending me Word or PowerPoint attachments.
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>



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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Henri Beauchamp]

On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:29:25 +, Gareth Nelson wrote:

> I can confirm that my installation of libomv's TestClient still
> connects fine - version 0.6.3

In fact, I just tried and yes, it's working again... In the mean
time i also got a reply from the support, here it is, just for
you to see how much LL cares about such matters:

"Hello Henri,

Thank you for contacting us regarding your issue.

I am sorry but we can only offer support on issues with the official
SL viewer.

We do not support any thrd party viewer as we are not responsible
for their software.

If you experience the issue with the official viewer then we will
assist to the best of our ability.

Please feel free to contact us again in the future if you have any
further problems/queries.

Kind Regards,"

So, they apparently allowed again the connections but are denying any
support, even though I pointed out in my ticket how this could affect
their own viewer... Weird !
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Gareth Nelson]

Let's try an experiment

Proxying the login request and dropping the request results in:
error executing RPC 'login_to_simulator'
Died at /local/www/login.agni.lindenlab.com/cgi-bin/login.cgi line 1802

Looks like the login script can't handle not having a mac address

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 2:35 PM, Henri Beauchamp  wrote:
> On Thu, 25 Feb 2010 14:29:25 +, Gareth Nelson wrote:
>
>> I can confirm that my installation of libomv's TestClient still
>> connects fine - version 0.6.3
>
> In fact, I just tried and yes, it's working again... In the mean
> time i also got a reply from the support, here it is, just for
> you to see how much LL cares about such matters:
>
> "Hello Henri,
>
> Thank you for contacting us regarding your issue.
>
> I am sorry but we can only offer support on issues with the official
> SL viewer.
>
> We do not support any thrd party viewer as we are not responsible
> for their software.
>
> If you experience the issue with the official viewer then we will
> assist to the best of our ability.
>
> Please feel free to contact us again in the future if you have any
> further problems/queries.
>
> Kind Regards,"
>
> So, they apparently allowed again the connections but are denying any
> support, even though I pointed out in my ticket how this could affect
> their own viewer... Weird !
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Tateru Nino]

If I was running on the equipment provided by my ISP, rather than
assembling my own kit, I wouldn't have a MAC address either.

On 26/02/2010 4:31 AM, Argent wrote:
> Sorry for not editing this in detail, Opera is SLOW as hell in a
> thread this long in gmail.
>
> I understand why they're asking for a MAC address. I'm pointing out
> that a viewer may be running on a device that HAS NO MAC ADDRESS.
>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 8:28 AM, Scott McCulley  > wrote:
>
> Argent,
>
> >From a network standpoint, the mac address is a layer two address
> that is not seen when crossing a router to a new network. So,
> therer is no way to see your mac address from the network packets.
> LL is using the mac address as a unique identifier of your
> computer. When you use the SL viewer, it can read your mac address
> locally, then send it along to LL to be used to identify you on
> the grid. So if you have multiple accounts that you use from the
> same computer, they know it is you, no matter what your IP
> address, proxy server, or other network layer protection is used.
>
> In the case of known griefers, LL could simply disable access from
> that mac address that is reported by the viewer, and the person
> cannot get back in to the grid, regardless of IP or SL account.
> The only way is to use a completely new computer with a different
> mac address.
>
> That being said, if the developers mask the ability to read and
> report the mac address to the LL grid, they lose the abilit to
> block the bad guys.
>
> -Scott
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>
> On Feb 24, 2010, at 5:49 AM, Argent Stonecutter
> mailto:secret.arg...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Admittedly this is not likely to be a common scenario, but the
> whole
> idea that a MAC address is a unique identifier for a device is
> based
> on a deep-seated confusion about the network stack.
>
>
>
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-- 
Tateru Nino
Contributing Editor http://massively.com/

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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Gigs  wrote:
> Henri Beauchamp wrote:
>> Thank you for contacting us regarding your issue.
>> I am sorry but we can only offer support on issues with the official
>> SL viewer.
> This sort of response is completely unacceptable.  You weren't asking
> for support for your viewer, you were asking for support related to the
> server's behavior.

I've been blown off with that excuse too.

Read http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5357 for my trail-of-tears
support experience.

Sure glad I went premium, I got this nifty free house...
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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV & opensim

[Dzonatas Sol]

Given this setup. It would look like this:

[ viewer <-> opensim ] <-> [ opensim <-> viewer ]

That's peer to peer.

Let's say somebody wants to setup a 3D website inside one. They don't 
want to go through ICANN because it's "virtual" just like "virtual 
linden" currency.

They want "http://media.on.a.prim.region.open.sim"; as their website.

They point and click, create object, select media prefs, enter website 
address, they get the TLD automatically, no hassle to reg with ICANN for 
every prim they create. And, no need to have a static server, any other 
simulator may connect to their simulator and find their website.  That 
way someone may "buy" their prim, take it to another world, and use it 
there, and the website still works and knows how to resolve addresses.


Dahlia Trimble wrote:
> I have been experimenting with combining and/or offloading physics 
> simulations on physics capable clients (not LL based) with OpenSim, 
> but nothing has been released as open source as of yet. It's not clear 
> to me how a new TLD would affect this though, or why it might be 
> required.
>
> -Dahlia
> (Core)
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Dzonatas Sol  > wrote:
>
> I thought this was quite of interest for viewer developers that
> might ever be interested to attach a simulator to their viewer in
> order to dispel latency.
>
> --- snip ---
>
> If one opensim box connects to another opensim box, that is,
> technically, peer to peer.
>
> So, are you saying an opensim box cannot run a client at the same
> time?
>
> >Melanie wrote:
> >Hi,
>
> >peer to peer simulation is not practical for many different reasons.
> >Latency being the chief one.
> >
> >OpenSim is not going to be a peer to peer system, therefore your
> >suggestion is off topic. Opensim doesn't need another TLD, and it is
> >not what you are envisioning. OpenSim firmly embraces the concept of
> >SERVER SIDE simulation, therefore every sim will always have a
> >central server.
> >
> >I believe this has gone as far as it will go and if there is any
> >more name calling, well, we'll just have to moderate some people,
> >won't we?
> >
> >Melanie
> >(Core)
>
> If one opensim box connects to another opensim box, that is,
> technically, peer to peer.
>
> So, are you saying an opensim box cannot run a client at the same
> time?
>
> Melanie wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> peer to peer simulation is not practical for many different
> reasons.
> Latency being the chief one.
>
> OpenSim is not going to be a peer to peer system, therefore your
> suggestion is off topic. Opensim doesn't need another TLD, and
> it is
> not what you are envisioning. OpenSim firmly embraces the
> concept of
> SERVER SIDE simulation, therefore every sim will always have a
> central server.
>
> I believe this has gone as far as it will go and if there is any
> more name calling, well, we'll just have to moderate some people,
> won't we?
>
> Melanie
> (Core)
>
>
> �
>
>
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV & opensim

[Dahlia Trimble]

I have been experimenting with combining and/or offloading physics
simulations on physics capable clients (not LL based) with OpenSim, but
nothing has been released as open source as of yet. It's not clear to me how
a new TLD would affect this though, or why it might be required.

-Dahlia
(Core)

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:05 AM, Dzonatas Sol  wrote:

> I thought this was quite of interest for viewer developers that might ever
> be interested to attach a simulator to their viewer in order to dispel
> latency.
>
> --- snip ---
>
> If one opensim box connects to another opensim box, that is, technically,
> peer to peer.
>
> So, are you saying an opensim box cannot run a client at the same time?
>
> >Melanie wrote:
> >Hi,
>
> >peer to peer simulation is not practical for many different reasons.
> >Latency being the chief one.
> >
> >OpenSim is not going to be a peer to peer system, therefore your
> >suggestion is off topic. Opensim doesn't need another TLD, and it is
> >not what you are envisioning. OpenSim firmly embraces the concept of
> >SERVER SIDE simulation, therefore every sim will always have a
> >central server.
> >
> >I believe this has gone as far as it will go and if there is any
> >more name calling, well, we'll just have to moderate some people,
> >won't we?
> >
> >Melanie
> >(Core)
>
> If one opensim box connects to another opensim box, that is, technically,
> peer to peer.
>
> So, are you saying an opensim box cannot run a client at the same time?
>
> Melanie wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> peer to peer simulation is not practical for many different reasons.
>> Latency being the chief one.
>>
>> OpenSim is not going to be a peer to peer system, therefore your
>> suggestion is off topic. Opensim doesn't need another TLD, and it is
>> not what you are envisioning. OpenSim firmly embraces the concept of
>> SERVER SIDE simulation, therefore every sim will always have a
>> central server.
>>
>> I believe this has gone as far as it will go and if there is any
>> more name calling, well, we'll just have to moderate some people,
>> won't we?
>>
>> Melanie
>> (Core)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Matrice64]

well put k\o\w :-)

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin) <
mag...@matrisync.com> wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Gigs  wrote:
> > Henri Beauchamp wrote:
> >> Thank you for contacting us regarding your issue.
> >> I am sorry but we can only offer support on issues with the official
> >> SL viewer.
> > This sort of response is completely unacceptable.  You weren't asking
> > for support for your viewer, you were asking for support related to the
> > server's behavior.
>
> I've been blown off with that excuse too.
>
> Read http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5357 for my trail-of-tears
> support experience.
>
> Sure glad I went premium, I got this nifty free house...
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Re: [opensource-dev] "Resposibility" - Third party viewer policy

[Colin Kern]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 10:35 AM, Vex Streeter  wrote:
>
> GPL also specifically disclaims warranty and liability unless you choose to
> provide such for your code or distribution.  Policy sections 1.c.i and
> 1.c.ii are redundant w/rt GPL but_requiring_ such statements of downstream
> distributors conflicts with GPL.  Policy section 7.d is even worse as it
> directly contradicts GPL liability disclaimers.
>

Nothing in the TPV contradicts or violates the GPL, because the GPL is
all about distribution of software, and the TPV is about whether or
not LL will allow a viewer to connect to their servers, not whether
you'll be allowed to distribute it.

Colin
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[opensource-dev] realxtend retreating from SL support... ?

[Lawson English]

realxtend list: http://groups.google.com/group/realxtend

[ thread:  Naali will never run on Second Life?


How can you guys claim to be working on interop with IETF when suddenly 
no independent implementation of the viewer works with the SL protocols 
and your new viewer policy is scaring everyone away from working on 
interop? So much for "2 independent implementations": word is that even 
the libomv text viewers aren't working any more.




Lawson (sheesh)
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[opensource-dev] TPV & opensim

[Dzonatas Sol]

I thought this was quite of interest for viewer developers that might 
ever be interested to attach a simulator to their viewer in order to 
dispel latency.


--- snip ---

If one opensim box connects to another opensim box, that is, 
technically, peer to peer.


So, are you saying an opensim box cannot run a client at the same time?

>Melanie wrote:
>Hi,

>peer to peer simulation is not practical for many different reasons.
>Latency being the chief one.
>
>OpenSim is not going to be a peer to peer system, therefore your
>suggestion is off topic. Opensim doesn't need another TLD, and it is
>not what you are envisioning. OpenSim firmly embraces the concept of
>SERVER SIDE simulation, therefore every sim will always have a
>central server.
>
>I believe this has gone as far as it will go and if there is any
>more name calling, well, we'll just have to moderate some people,
>won't we?
>
>Melanie
>(Core)
--- Begin Message ---
If one opensim box connects to another opensim box, that is, 
technically, peer to peer.


So, are you saying an opensim box cannot run a client at the same time?

Melanie wrote:

Hi,

peer to peer simulation is not practical for many different reasons.
Latency being the chief one.

OpenSim is not going to be a peer to peer system, therefore your
suggestion is off topic. Opensim doesn't need another TLD, and it is
not what you are envisioning. OpenSim firmly embraces the concept of
SERVER SIDE simulation, therefore every sim will always have a
central server.

I believe this has gone as far as it will go and if there is any
more name calling, well, we'll just have to moderate some people,
won't we?

Melanie
(Core)


  



--- End Message ---
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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV & opensim & physics prediction

[Dzonatas Sol]

If there is no need for a grid server, then there would be no need for a 
TOS that would try to control a TPV.

I see the issue of opensim that wants to say "can only connect client to 
a grid server as supported by opensim" no different than Linden Lab's 
new TOS in attempts to control TPVs.

If we modify LL's official viewer and add client-side simulation to help 
dispel latency, with physics prediction, then their TOS says "no," you 
have to register your special viewer to connect.

Melanie stated that opensim is grid server only (like a TOS), which in 
essence, is logical equivalent to say, "you can't modify opensim in 
order to add a viewer and connect to our grid server"

One obvious question is: who's grid server?

With physics prediction being equal peer to peer, why would there ever 
need to be a grid server, or a TOS?

 >>> You're confusing the architecture of the software with what people 
want to do with it.

So, are they saying they don't want physics prediction?

Robert A. Knop Jr. wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 10:34:08AM -0800, Dzonatas Sol wrote:
>   
>> If everything is peer-2-peer where each client runs it's own simulator, 
>> there would be no need for a grid server. It's foolish and stupid to 
>> consider people would only want to connect to a grid server. That's 
>> certainly not how reality works, so it would be stupid to expect that 
>> when simulated.
>> 
>
> ...and, in OpenSim right now, there's no need for a "grid server".  You
> run a standalone region, and you've got your region without having some
> grid server.
>
> But it's not purely peer-to-peer, because the viewer software and the
> server software are two different pieces of software.
>
> It's just like how I can run Apache (web server) on my desktop, and use
> Firefox (web client) on my desktop to look at HTML documents served by
> Apache on my desktop.  It's all on my machine, and I don't have to rely
> on any web hosting provider or any such to complete the transaction.
> But it's not p2p in the sense that it's still a client-server
> architecture.
>
> You're confusing the architecture of the software with what people want
> to do with it.  Things don't have to have a peer-to-peer architecture
> for everybody to be able to roll their own.  There are advantages and
> disadvantages to different architectures for different problems.  But
> the fact is that OpenSim is a client/server architecture, and that's how
> it is.
>
>
>   
> 
>
> ___
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> opensim-...@lists.berlios.de
> https://lists.berlios.de/mailman/listinfo/opensim-dev
>   

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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV & opensim & physics prediction

[Dzonatas Sol]

I had this question but didn't see a response to it at all: "So, are 
they saying they don't want physics prediction? "

To me, a direct protocol, with a TLD, like "opens.im" , would help 
enable physics prediction where two or more simulator share the same 
dataset for a single region. There are exponential reasons why, so I 
only have avoided to describe all potential possibilities.

The issue of latency seems like a major concern for ALL users, not just 
those who invest in a grid server.

As I started this conversion, I brought up the UUCP domain, as it 
traditionally shows the foundation of p2p networks and how to share 
datasets with simple copy programs. Look at all the traffic on USENET 
that was still delivered to all nodes even on what we would consider now 
the slowest of computers and data connections. People used a similar 
VIEWER<->UUCP<->UUCP<->VIEWER to read news and distribute all the datasets.

It worked. It is still free and open.

All what we really want to do is add a 3D renderer and physics 
simulator. Everything else is already open source, patented, RFC'd, and etc.

Also, since "prims" are in-world, we also just want to add an "in-world 
DNS" that is not controlled by a "out-of-world IANA" -- I don't think 
this was acknowledged. Some can simply think of an LSL script in-world 
that acted as the DNS program, if that helps clarify.

Robert A. Knop Jr. wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 12:40:27PM -0800, Dzonatas Sol wrote:
>   
>> If there is no need for a grid server, then there would be no need
>> for a TOS that would try to control a TPV.
>> 
>
> ...and OpenSim has no such TOS.
>
>   
>> If we modify LL's official viewer and add client-side simulation to
>> help dispel latency, with physics prediction, then their TOS says
>> "no," you have to register your special viewer to connect.
>> 
>
> ...to *Second Life*.  Not to connect in general.
>
> You're confusing Second Life, which is a single proprietary service run
> by a single company, with OpenSim, which is a software platform that can
> be deployed by anybody.
>
>   
>> Melanie stated that opensim is grid server only (like a TOS), which
>> in essence, is logical equivalent to say, "you can't modify opensim
>> in order to add a viewer and connect to our grid server"
>> 
>
> Wrong.
>
>   

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[opensource-dev] "Second-Party" viewer policy (was: Third party viewer policy)

[Jay Reynolds Freeman]

All the heated discussion about the new third-party viewer policy sent me 
scurrying in terror to find a nice rock to hide under, but unfortunately there 
is a question I need to ask, so I must now peek out and speak up:

LL defines "third-party viewers" only in terms of "third-party software 
clients" (Policy section 9.c, which also provides some examples for 
elaboration).  I am not a lawyer and do not play one in SL, but I gather that 
the "first party" in such a case is LL, and that the "second party" would be 
whoever is actually using the viewer to access SL.

But what if there is no "third party"?  What if I develop a modified version of 
the SL viewer all by myself, and use it to log in to the SL servers, but do not 
distribute either source or binary for it?  Since there is no additional, 
"third" party involved in the creation and use of this viewer, it would appear 
that nothing in the "Linden Lab Policy on Third-Party Viewers" applies to it or 
to me.  My viewer might more properly be described as a "second-party" viewer.  
(I of course must comply with other LL terms of service and abide by many other 
legal, moral and ethical considerations.)

This is a real issue for me, not an attempt to pick nits:  I do have a 
personal, slightly modified version of the SL viewer that I use occasionally, 
for a hobby project, and I have no intention of distributing it in any form.  
(And I indeed believe that I am in full compliance with the LL terms of 
service, et cetera.  My project is not malicious: I will be happy to tell LL or 
anyone else about it, but it is off-topic for this group and this thread, so 
send me private EMail if you wish.)

What I need to know is whether I can ignore the present "Linden Lab Policy on 
Third-Party Viewers" and keep fussing with my own "second-party" viewer as I 
have been, or whether I need to take steps to comply with a policy which 
probably was not developed with folks like me in mind.

Sorry to put another log on the pyre, er, fire ...  :-)

--  Jay Reynolds Freeman  (CeeJay Tigerpaw in Second Life)
-
jay_reynolds_free...@mac.com
http://web.mac.com/jay_reynolds_freeman (personal web site)

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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV & opensim

[Lawson English]

Dzonatas Sol wrote:
> Given this setup. It would look like this:
>
> [ viewer <-> opensim ] <-> [ opensim <-> viewer ]
>
> That's peer to peer.
>   

Another variation of peer to peer is:

[ viewer ] <=> server <=> [ viewer ]
...\.../
\./
.<===>


The viewers talk to each other or to a remote server separately from the sim 
server and share content via that channel instead/as well. "Content" could be 
prims, physics, etc.


Lawson


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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV & opensim

[Dzonatas Sol]

Lawson English wrote:
> Dzonatas Sol wrote:
>   
>> Given this setup. It would look like this:
>>
>> [ viewer <-> opensim ] <-> [ opensim <-> viewer ]
>>
>> That's peer to peer.
>>   
>> 
>
> Another variation of peer to peer is:
>
> [ viewer ] <=> server <=> [ viewer ]
> ...\.../
> \./
> .<===>
>
>
>   


In X11 terms, it would be

[ server ] <=> client <=> [ server ]
...\.../
\./
.<===>



Hmm, it is the server that renders the world, so the "client" is in () 
parens here:

[ viewer <-> ( opensim ] <-> [ opensim ) <-> viewer ]

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Re: [opensource-dev] "Second-Party" viewer policy (was: Third party viewer policy)

[Soft Linden]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:37 PM, Jay Reynolds Freeman
 wrote:
>
> But what if there is no "third party"?  What if I develop a modified version 
> of the SL viewer all by myself, and use it to log in to the SL servers, but 
> do not distribute either source or binary for it?  Since there is no 
> additional, "third" party involved in the creation and use of this viewer, it 
> would appear that nothing in the "Linden Lab Policy on Third-Party Viewers" 
> applies to it or to me.
>

The FAQ and revised TPV, coming soon, will address this directly.
There are some terms in there that don't apply if you aren't putting
the viewer in the registry, and they will be identified as such. Most
apply to any third-party viewer however, even if you aren't
distributing it.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Rob Nelson]

My estate's prototype land management/group invite bot was banned last
night ("Second Life cannot be accessed from this computer, please email
us at our non-working support email so we can laugh at you") but it
works this morning.  Looks like they got too many support emails and had
to reverse that ban.

On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 12:31 -0600, Matrice64 wrote:
> well put k\o\w :-) 
> 
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)
>  wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Gigs 
> wrote:
> > Henri Beauchamp wrote:
> >> Thank you for contacting us regarding your issue.
> >> I am sorry but we can only offer support on issues with the
> official
> >> SL viewer.
> > This sort of response is completely unacceptable.  You
> weren't asking
> > for support for your viewer, you were asking for support
> related to the
> > server's behavior.
> 
> 
> I've been blown off with that excuse too.
> 
> Read http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5357 for my
> trail-of-tears
> support experience.
> 
> Sure glad I went premium, I got this nifty free house...
> 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Erik Anderson]

>From Gareth's analysis, I'm guessing that the "ban" today was a rather
ill-timed bug and that someone probably has egg on their face from messing
up the production login server while in the middle of some rather delicate
negotiations here regarding said server.  Amazon did something similar with
dropping books several months back, so it might be good to take a breather
in all of this...

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Rob Nelson wrote:

> My estate's prototype land management/group invite bot was banned last
> night ("Second Life cannot be accessed from this computer, please email
> us at our non-working support email so we can laugh at you") but it
> works this morning.  Looks like they got too many support emails and had
> to reverse that ban.
>
> On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 12:31 -0600, Matrice64 wrote:
> > well put k\o\w :-)
> >
> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)
> >  wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Gigs 
> > wrote:
> > > Henri Beauchamp wrote:
> > >> Thank you for contacting us regarding your issue.
> > >> I am sorry but we can only offer support on issues with the
> > official
> > >> SL viewer.
> > > This sort of response is completely unacceptable.  You
> > weren't asking
> > > for support for your viewer, you were asking for support
> > related to the
> > > server's behavior.
> >
> >
> > I've been blown off with that excuse too.
> >
> > Read http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5357 for my
> > trail-of-tears
> > support experience.
> >
> > Sure glad I went premium, I got this nifty free house...
> >
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Soft Linden]

There have been no bans related to the TPV policy release.

I know there's been some work on migrating some servers to a data
center with better connectivity to the other sims, etc. There was also
a login problem lasting a couple minutes yesterday around 19:30
Pacific. I wouldn't be surprised if it was related to one of these.

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Erik Anderson
 wrote:
> From Gareth's analysis, I'm guessing that the "ban" today was a rather
> ill-timed bug and that someone probably has egg on their face from messing
> up the production login server while in the middle of some rather delicate
> negotiations here regarding said server.  Amazon did something similar with
> dropping books several months back, so it might be good to take a breather
> in all of this...
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 3:08 PM, Rob Nelson 
> wrote:
>>
>> My estate's prototype land management/group invite bot was banned last
>> night ("Second Life cannot be accessed from this computer, please email
>> us at our non-working support email so we can laugh at you") but it
>> works this morning.  Looks like they got too many support emails and had
>> to reverse that ban.
>>
>> On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 12:31 -0600, Matrice64 wrote:
>> > well put k\o\w :-)
>> >
>> > On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:37 AM, Maggie Leber (sl: Maggie Darwin)
>> >  wrote:
>> >         On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Gigs 
>> >         wrote:
>> >         > Henri Beauchamp wrote:
>> >         >> Thank you for contacting us regarding your issue.
>> >         >> I am sorry but we can only offer support on issues with the
>> >         official
>> >         >> SL viewer.
>> >         > This sort of response is completely unacceptable.  You
>> >         weren't asking
>> >         > for support for your viewer, you were asking for support
>> >         related to the
>> >         > server's behavior.
>> >
>> >
>> >         I've been blown off with that excuse too.
>> >
>> >         Read http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/SVC-5357 for my
>> >         trail-of-tears
>> >         support experience.
>> >
>> >         Sure glad I went premium, I got this nifty free house...
>> >
>> >         ___
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Carlo Wood]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 03:35:06PM +0100, Henri Beauchamp wrote:
> "Hello Henri,
> 
> Thank you for contacting us regarding your issue.
> 
> I am sorry but we can only offer support on issues with the official
> SL viewer.
> 
> We do not support any third party viewer as we are not responsible
> for their software.
> 
> If you experience the issue with the official viewer then we will
> assist to the best of our ability.

The only reasonable response to THIS, is faking a random
MAC address in order to connect (if that is really the
problem here). If they don't want to help, then you gotta
help yourself.

Seriously though, ... I imagine a not-so-smart person
reading your technical support request and having no
idea what you talk about. "MAC address? What is that?
libomv light? Uh uh". Fortunately the phrase "text-only
viewer" got through and brought a smile back on her
face: pull-down menu, default response *click*. NEXT!
"Oh, I'm so good at my work; dealing with like 5 requests
per minute!".

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Carlo Wood]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 05:31:20PM -0600, Soft Linden wrote:
> There have been no bans related to the TPV policy release.
> 
> I know there's been some work on migrating some servers to a data
> center with better connectivity to the other sims, etc. There was also
> a login problem lasting a couple minutes yesterday around 19:30
> Pacific. I wouldn't be surprised if it was related to one of these.

Instead of a "Sorry, we don't help you", support would better
answer with "Sorry, we have not disabled null-MAC's yet, so it
probably was a temporary problem, or should be. Can you still
login with the normal viewer?"

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Henri Beauchamp]

On Fri, 26 Feb 2010 01:49:38 +0100, Carlo Wood wrote:

> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 05:31:20PM -0600, Soft Linden wrote:
> > There have been no bans related to the TPV policy release.
> > 
> > I know there's been some work on migrating some servers to a data
> > center with better connectivity to the other sims, etc. There was also
> > a login problem lasting a couple minutes yesterday around 19:30
> > Pacific. I wouldn't be surprised if it was related to one of these.
> 
> Instead of a "Sorry, we don't help you", support would better
> answer with "Sorry, we have not disabled null-MAC's yet, so it
> probably was a temporary problem, or should be. Can you still
> login with the normal viewer?"

Yes, and the answer to the latter question was already in my ticket...
I did write in it that I was still able to login with a full
fledged viewer (either official or third party) but not with
text-only clients based on Mono... Which also makes me doubt very
much it was just a glitch of the login server due to a migration
or whatnot.

Anyway... Whatever the cause or whoever the culprit, things are
back to normal, and that's what counts, after all, even if the
support is still as lame as ever.

Henri.
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2 update

[Aleric Inglewood]

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 6:45 AM, Philippe (Merov) Bossut <
me...@lindenlab.com> wrote:

>  I'm very happy personally to have Snowglobe now tracking the main viewer
> (and getting out of the business of doing cherry pick merges of huge feature
> sets...) so that our effort here can get to the main viewer faster while we
> still maintain the freedom to experiment.
>

 Do you mean that each individual commit to the internal 2.0 viewer will
also result in a commit to snowglobe 2.0?  No more monthly 100 kB merges
that makes us lose all overview?


> I'm really looking forward for more innovative Snowglobe developments now
> we're back tracking the main code base.
>

I gotz some ideas }:-)
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Re: [opensource-dev] Request for help on compiling Snowglobe

[Carlo Wood]

Linden Lab neither supports standalone nor 64bit. (Snowglobe is
often broken for standalone because it's never tested by LL
when they make changes).

On top of that, almost non of the opensource developers that
volunteer here use windows natively (I don't know of any).
I know that Robin did some work on windows, but in a virtual
machine I imagine? And he's really a debian guy, swamped with
lots of work.

I wish I could help, I haven't touched windows in my life :p
Hopefully I'm wrong and some windows expert will jump out
of nowhere, but otherwise I'm afraid that YOU will have to
become our windows standalone-build expert.

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 03:21:47PM -0500, malachi wrote:
> i have been trying since snowglobe started to compile this thing. and 
> for some reason i have yet to be successful in doing so. i think 
> snowglobe hates me. i can compile the standard client source just fine. 
> but when it comes to snowglobe i always seem to get hundreds of errors. 
> so im finally done trying to sort it out alone
> 
> anyone here willing to spend a few minutes to help me figure out what is 
> going wrong with snow that wont allow it to compile?
> 
> 
> 
> i have tried this with visual studio 2008, visual c++ 2008 express, 
> visual studio 2005, visual c++ 2005, i have tried all versions of cmake 
> and python and have tried while using vista and win7 both 32bit and 
> 64bit OS.
> 
> so far im down to just Build: 21 succeeded, 50 failed, 30 up-to-date, 2 
> skipped. which is way better than it was before lol.
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Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV Policy makes Secondlife *content* incompatible with CC-SA licenses

[Carlo Wood]

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 01:05:28AM -0300, Tigro Spottystripes wrote:
> if it's just about copying and modification, but not use, then how come
> we can't use, say a texture, without explicit permission from the
> creator under the risk of being prosecuted for copyright infringement?

I'm not using textures, I'm just using UUID's.

I'd like to see how law stops me from creating a new asset with
the same UUID's as another asset.

Long story short: it isn't about civil law. It's about LL letting
as know what is their policy, what might cause them to stop
viewers from connecting (or users from connecting) to their service.

LL is not going to sue anyone for copyright infringment if you
export a GPL script or a CSS texture, or when you write a viewer that allows
all kinds of nasty things. They can't, since all of that is legal.

I'm not a lawyer, but my understanding is that even if someone
made some art, a photo of that art and then uploads that texture
to SL, then by the act of uploading (due to the TOS) they can't
sue LL or anyone else if they download that texture and view
it in a viewer. What a "viewer" is is rather vague; but ok, lets
say that then someone not only exports this texture but prints
in a book and sells that book; then imho only the original copyright
holder can sue that person, and still not LL; it's simply non
of their business (although they might decide to ban the author
of that book, but they can do that anyway, also without reason).

-- 
Carlo Wood 
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Re: [opensource-dev] TPV Policy makes Secondlife *content* incompatible with CC-SA licenses

[Argent Stonecutter]

Gigs... I think what you're looking at is akin to Tivoization, and  
providing an external source for Tivoized content is compatible with  
GPL2 (and is one reason for the GPL3).
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[opensource-dev] Build problems with Snowglobe 2 source

[Sheet Spotter]

After commenting out the entire "if (LL_TESTS)" section at the bottom of
"indra/newview/CMakeLists.txt" the linker still had unresolved symbols.

It's my guess that "llcapabilitylistener.cpp" should be added to the
"CMakeLists.txt" section that starts with "set(viewer_SOURCE_FILES".

Manually adding the "llcapabilitylistener.cpp" source file to the VS2005
project allowed me to compile and run again, but there are still some build
issues. The "package" project produces the following output:

1>Processing ../win_crash_logger/RelWithDebInfo/windows-crash-logger.exe =>
win_crash_logger.exe ... 1 files
1>Processing ../win_updater/RelWithDebInfo/windows-updater.exe =>
updater.exe ... 1 files
1>Traceback (most recent call last):
1>  File "C:/SLSource/SnowglobeV2/indra/newview/viewer_manifest.py", line
999, in 
1>main()
1>  File
"C:/SLSource/SnowglobeV2/indra/newview\../lib/python/indra/util\llmanifest.p
y", line 237, in main
1>wm.do(*args['actions'])
1>  File
"C:/SLSource/SnowglobeV2/indra/newview\../lib/python/indra/util\llmanifest.p
y", line 664, in do
1>method()
1>  File "C:/SLSource/SnowglobeV2/indra/newview/viewer_manifest.py", line
563, in package_finish
1>self.run_command('"' + proper_windows_path(NSIS_path) + '" ' +
self.dst_path_of(tempfile))
1>TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'NoneType' objects
1>Project : error PRJ0019: A tool returned an error code from "Generating
RelWithDebInfo/touched.bat"

I guess it's possible this build problem is self inflicted by the edits I
made to "CMakeLists.txt".


Sheet Spotter


-Original Message-
From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
[mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Matrice64
Sent: February 24, 2010 9:49 AM
To: Argent Stonecutter
Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2 update

Yeah I commented out everything in the  if (test)   part of the
CMakeLists.txt towards the bottom and it worked out for me

On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 6:11 AM, Argent Stonecutter
 wrote:
> On 2010-02-24, at 02:26, Thomas Shikami wrote:
>> SOCKS5 is usually used by griefers to mask the IP address.
>
> SOCKS5 is the only way to connect if you are behind a reasonably
> secure corporate firewall.
>
> SL is completely out of the question for business use without SOCKS5
> support, even for the kind of "3d corporate website" model that LL is
> pushing.
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Build problems with Snowglobe 2 source

[k\o\w]

1>Project : error PRJ0019: A tool returned an error code from "Generating
RelWithDebInfo/touched.bat"

go to build ->  configuration manager and uncheck package (or invoke develop.py 
with -DPACKAGE:BOOL=OFF) to get rid of the above error.



On 2/25/2010 11:58 PM, Sheet Spotter wrote:
> After commenting out the entire "if (LL_TESTS)" section at the bottom of
> "indra/newview/CMakeLists.txt" the linker still had unresolved symbols.
>
> It's my guess that "llcapabilitylistener.cpp" should be added to the
> "CMakeLists.txt" section that starts with "set(viewer_SOURCE_FILES".
>
> Manually adding the "llcapabilitylistener.cpp" source file to the VS2005
> project allowed me to compile and run again, but there are still some build
> issues. The "package" project produces the following output:
>
> 1>Processing ../win_crash_logger/RelWithDebInfo/windows-crash-logger.exe =>
> win_crash_logger.exe ... 1 files
> 1>Processing ../win_updater/RelWithDebInfo/windows-updater.exe =>
> updater.exe ... 1 files
> 1>Traceback (most recent call last):
> 1>   File "C:/SLSource/SnowglobeV2/indra/newview/viewer_manifest.py", line
> 999, in
> 1> main()
> 1>   File
> "C:/SLSource/SnowglobeV2/indra/newview\../lib/python/indra/util\llmanifest.p
> y", line 237, in main
> 1> wm.do(*args['actions'])
> 1>   File
> "C:/SLSource/SnowglobeV2/indra/newview\../lib/python/indra/util\llmanifest.p
> y", line 664, in do
> 1> method()
> 1>   File "C:/SLSource/SnowglobeV2/indra/newview/viewer_manifest.py", line
> 563, in package_finish
> 1> self.run_command('"' + proper_windows_path(NSIS_path) + '" ' +
> self.dst_path_of(tempfile))
> 1>TypeError: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'NoneType' objects
> 1>Project : error PRJ0019: A tool returned an error code from "Generating
> RelWithDebInfo/touched.bat"
>
> I guess it's possible this build problem is self inflicted by the edits I
> made to "CMakeLists.txt".
>
>
> Sheet Spotter
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com
> [mailto:opensource-dev-boun...@lists.secondlife.com] On Behalf Of Matrice64
> Sent: February 24, 2010 9:49 AM
> To: Argent Stonecutter
> Cc: opensource-dev@lists.secondlife.com
> Subject: Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2 update
>
> Yeah I commented out everything in the  if (test)   part of the
> CMakeLists.txt towards the bottom and it worked out for me
>
> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 6:11 AM, Argent Stonecutter
>   wrote:
>
>> On 2010-02-24, at 02:26, Thomas Shikami wrote:
>>  
>>> SOCKS5 is usually used by griefers to mask the IP address.
>>>
>> SOCKS5 is the only way to connect if you are behind a reasonably
>> secure corporate firewall.
>>
>> SL is completely out of the question for business use without SOCKS5
>> support, even for the kind of "3d corporate website" model that LL is
>> pushing.
>>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Snowglobe 2 update

[Philippe (Merov) Bossut]

Ooops... Meant to the list. There... :)
- Merov

On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 9:22 PM, Philippe (Merov) Bossut <
me...@lindenlab.com> wrote:

> Hi Aleric,
>
> On Thu, Feb 25, 2010 at 5:26 PM, Aleric Inglewood <
> aleric.inglew...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>  Do you mean that each individual commit to the internal 2.0 viewer will
>> also result in a commit to snowglobe 2.0?  No more monthly 100 kB merges
>> that makes us lose all overview?
>>
>
> No right now unfortunately because of the hg->svn export :/  We'll get that
> granularity of history when we switch to hg completely but we need some
> internal hg repo surgery before we can get there. It's a sizable project but
> one we're taking in.
>
> In the meantime I need to finish my current script and push it
> (literally...) to the main so that the export is as frequent as we
> need/wish. Daily would be good.
>
>
>>
>>> I'm really looking forward for more innovative Snowglobe developments now
>>> we're back tracking the main code base.
>>>
>>
>> I gotz some ideas }:-)
>>
>
>  Bring it on! :)
>
> Cheers,
> - Merov
>
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Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Bryon Ruxton]

A name suggestion for viewers: "A viewer that connect to a virtual world
that can't be name for risks of being objected to by a company with
aggressive lawyers who like to come up with unconscionable terms of
services, or who make illegitimate attempts of one's right to forbid the
usage of words they do not have trademark rights over"

> "Unfortunately they maintain that we put our trademark at risk without
consistent enforcement. They can't budge."
Soft, they ought to consider that abusive overreach on their part could on
the other end, put LL at risk of being liable once again of lawsuits being
translated in court to unconscionable terms of services. Sounds familiar?

As far I recall LL has the trademark over "SL" and "Second Life".
So perhaps your lawyers could suck the "Life" out of their jurisdictions?

I get the fact that they had to go an extra unusual mile with brand name
protection due the nature of the company's name. But there was also an
attempt to trademark the word "grid" alone, in the past. That speaks a lot!

I don't see a need for concessions here, but for your lawyers to re-evaluate
their legitimate rights to such claim to begin with. I just don't see it.

If I was your marketing department. I would be equally concerned as to the
repercussions of such restrictions for impeding the ability for Linden
Research to promote its Second Life name and market itself as a grid.

"Stop shooting yourself in the foot. It could impede your ability to walk."


On 2/24/10 11:16 AM, "Soft Linden"  wrote:

> On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 1:50 AM, Marine Kelley  wrote:
>> You gotta be kiddin me !! I call that a stab in the back. You guys disgust
>> me.
>> 
>> Your Third-Party Viewer name must not be confusingly similar to or use any
>> part of a Linden Lab trademark, including ³Second,² ³Life,² ³SL,² or
>> ³Linden.² For example:
>> 
>> You must not have a Third-Party Viewer name that is ³ Life² where
>> ³² is a term or series of terms
> 
> I talked to legal to ask if there were any concessions they could make
> - I know there are hundreds of items that use your name, which makes
> this really disruptive. Unfortunately they maintain that we put our
> trademark at risk without consistent enforcement. They can't budge.
> However, they were willing to offer some extra time for transitioning
> to a new name, as well as help in making sure people can still find
> your viewer based on the old name.
> 
> First, you wouldn't need to change the name right away. They were okay
> with giving three months to make a change, in hopes that that's enough
> time to do so without a rush or an extra release.
> 
> Second, if you're able to do that, you can still be listed in the
> viewer registry right away. You'd need to select a new name for the
> viewer, but "(formerly Restrained Life)" will be shown underneath the
> name so there's no question as to which viewer people would download
> if they came in search of your own.
> 
> If there's anyone else with an established viewer name that conflicts
> with the viewer policy, and who wants to be included in the registry,
> the same offer is open to you as well.
> ___
> Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
> Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges
> 
> 


___
Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
http://wiki.secondlife.com/wiki/OpenSource-Dev
Please read the policies before posting to keep unmoderated posting privileges

Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Rob Nelson]

I (obviously) agree.

I highly doubt that trying to claim copyright on "Life" or "Second" in
court would make the judge take the case seriously.  What's next,
claiming copyright on "primitive", "avatar", "lab", and "simulator"?
Sending C&Ds to people who write viewers called Slick or Slanderous?
Sending C&Ds to people who write programs that have nothing to do with
Linden Lab whatsoever?

Also, can anyone confirm/deny whether "Living" is also a forbidden term?
RLV's developer blog has posted that "Living" was also rejected by
Linden staff, but I'd like to hear it from the horse's mouth.  If so, I
might as well move my viewer over to OpenSim exclusively, and not have
to bother with overbearing regulations and rabid lawyers at all.

When you spend so much time harassing legitimate viewers, and so little
time going after the people who are actually damaging you, you need to
re-check your priorities.  People who write Copybots and NeilLife-like
viewers are your enemies (they're certainly not going to spend much
money), so go after them instead of having everyone else jump through
hoops that the copybotters are going to ignore anyway.  All you're doing
is making it harder for legitimate people to create content and
applications for your grid.

Also, are we going to see enforcement of this, or is it going to quietly
disappear after about a week like all of the other Copybot/Content
theft-related promises we've heard on the blog?  

Rob Nelson
Lead Developer
Luna Viewer (http://luna-viewer.googlecode.com)

On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 22:01 -0800, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
> A name suggestion for viewers: "A viewer that connect to a virtual world
> that can't be name for risks of being objected to by a company with
> aggressive lawyers who like to come up with unconscionable terms of
> services, or who make illegitimate attempts of one's right to forbid the
> usage of words they do not have trademark rights over"
> 
> > "Unfortunately they maintain that we put our trademark at risk without
> consistent enforcement. They can't budge."
> Soft, they ought to consider that abusive overreach on their part could on
> the other end, put LL at risk of being liable once again of lawsuits being
> translated in court to unconscionable terms of services. Sounds familiar?
> 
> As far I recall LL has the trademark over "SL" and "Second Life".
> So perhaps your lawyers could suck the "Life" out of their jurisdictions?
> 
> I get the fact that they had to go an extra unusual mile with brand name
> protection due the nature of the company's name. But there was also an
> attempt to trademark the word "grid" alone, in the past. That speaks a lot!
> 
> I don't see a need for concessions here, but for your lawyers to re-evaluate
> their legitimate rights to such claim to begin with. I just don't see it.
> 
> If I was your marketing department. I would be equally concerned as to the
> repercussions of such restrictions for impeding the ability for Linden
> Research to promote its Second Life name and market itself as a grid.
> 
> "Stop shooting yourself in the foot. It could impede your ability to walk."
> 
> 
> On 2/24/10 11:16 AM, "Soft Linden"  wrote:
> 
> > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 1:50 AM, Marine Kelley  
> > wrote:
> >> You gotta be kiddin me !! I call that a stab in the back. You guys disgust
> >> me.
> >> 
> >> Your Third-Party Viewer name must not be confusingly similar to or use any
> >> part of a Linden Lab trademark, including ³Second,² ³Life,² ³SL,² or
> >> ³Linden.² For example:
> >> 
> >> You must not have a Third-Party Viewer name that is ³ Life² where
> >> ³² is a term or series of terms
> > 
> > I talked to legal to ask if there were any concessions they could make
> > - I know there are hundreds of items that use your name, which makes
> > this really disruptive. Unfortunately they maintain that we put our
> > trademark at risk without consistent enforcement. They can't budge.
> > However, they were willing to offer some extra time for transitioning
> > to a new name, as well as help in making sure people can still find
> > your viewer based on the old name.
> > 
> > First, you wouldn't need to change the name right away. They were okay
> > with giving three months to make a change, in hopes that that's enough
> > time to do so without a rush or an extra release.
> > 
> > Second, if you're able to do that, you can still be listed in the
> > viewer registry right away. You'd need to select a new name for the
> > viewer, but "(formerly Restrained Life)" will be shown underneath the
> > name so there's no question as to which viewer people would download
> > if they came in search of your own.
> > 
> > If there's anyone else with an established viewer name that conflicts
> > with the viewer policy, and who wants to be included in the registry,
> > the same offer is open to you as well.
> > ___
> > Policies and (un)subscribe information available here:
> > http://wiki.second

Re: [opensource-dev] Third party viewer policy

[Lance Corrimal]

250% ACK!

Am Freitag 26 Februar 2010 schrieb Rob Nelson:
> I (obviously) agree.
> 
> I highly doubt that trying to claim copyright on "Life" or "Second"
>  in court would make the judge take the case seriously.  What's
>  next, claiming copyright on "primitive", "avatar", "lab", and
>  "simulator"? Sending C&Ds to people who write viewers called Slick
>  or Slanderous? Sending C&Ds to people who write programs that have
>  nothing to do with Linden Lab whatsoever?
> 
> Also, can anyone confirm/deny whether "Living" is also a forbidden
>  term? RLV's developer blog has posted that "Living" was also
>  rejected by Linden staff, but I'd like to hear it from the horse's
>  mouth.  If so, I might as well move my viewer over to OpenSim
>  exclusively, and not have to bother with overbearing regulations
>  and rabid lawyers at all.
> 
> When you spend so much time harassing legitimate viewers, and so
>  little time going after the people who are actually damaging you,
>  you need to re-check your priorities.  People who write Copybots
>  and NeilLife-like viewers are your enemies (they're certainly not
>  going to spend much money), so go after them instead of having
>  everyone else jump through hoops that the copybotters are going to
>  ignore anyway.  All you're doing is making it harder for
>  legitimate people to create content and applications for your
>  grid.
> 
> Also, are we going to see enforcement of this, or is it going to
>  quietly disappear after about a week like all of the other
>  Copybot/Content theft-related promises we've heard on the blog?
> 
> Rob Nelson
> Lead Developer
> Luna Viewer (http://luna-viewer.googlecode.com)
> 
> On Thu, 2010-02-25 at 22:01 -0800, Bryon Ruxton wrote:
> > A name suggestion for viewers: "A viewer that connect to a
> > virtual world that can't be name for risks of being objected to
> > by a company with aggressive lawyers who like to come up with
> > unconscionable terms of services, or who make illegitimate
> > attempts of one's right to forbid the usage of words they do not
> > have trademark rights over"
> >
> > > "Unfortunately they maintain that we put our trademark at risk
> > > without
> >
> > consistent enforcement. They can't budge."
> > Soft, they ought to consider that abusive overreach on their part
> > could on the other end, put LL at risk of being liable once again
> > of lawsuits being translated in court to unconscionable terms of
> > services. Sounds familiar?
> >
> > As far I recall LL has the trademark over "SL" and "Second Life".
> > So perhaps your lawyers could suck the "Life" out of their
> > jurisdictions?
> >
> > I get the fact that they had to go an extra unusual mile with
> > brand name protection due the nature of the company's name. But
> > there was also an attempt to trademark the word "grid" alone, in
> > the past. That speaks a lot!
> >
> > I don't see a need for concessions here, but for your lawyers to
> > re-evaluate their legitimate rights to such claim to begin with.
> > I just don't see it.
> >
> > If I was your marketing department. I would be equally concerned
> > as to the repercussions of such restrictions for impeding the
> > ability for Linden Research to promote its Second Life name and
> > market itself as a grid.
> >
> > "Stop shooting yourself in the foot. It could impede your ability
> > to walk."
> >
> > On 2/24/10 11:16 AM, "Soft Linden"  wrote:
> > > On Wed, Feb 24, 2010 at 1:50 AM, Marine Kelley 
 wrote:
> > >> You gotta be kiddin me !! I call that a stab in the back. You
> > >> guys disgust me.
> > >>
> > >> Your Third-Party Viewer name must not be confusingly similar
> > >> to or use any part of a Linden Lab trademark, including
> > >> ³Second,² ³Life,² ³SL,² or ³Linden.² For example:
> > >>
> > >> You must not have a Third-Party Viewer name that is ³
> > >> Life² where ³² is a term or series of terms
> > >
> > > I talked to legal to ask if there were any concessions they
> > > could make - I know there are hundreds of items that use your
> > > name, which makes this really disruptive. Unfortunately they
> > > maintain that we put our trademark at risk without consistent
> > > enforcement. They can't budge. However, they were willing to
> > > offer some extra time for transitioning to a new name, as well
> > > as help in making sure people can still find your viewer based
> > > on the old name.
> > >
> > > First, you wouldn't need to change the name right away. They
> > > were okay with giving three months to make a change, in hopes
> > > that that's enough time to do so without a rush or an extra
> > > release.
> > >
> > > Second, if you're able to do that, you can still be listed in
> > > the viewer registry right away. You'd need to select a new name
> > > for the viewer, but "(formerly Restrained Life)" will be shown
> > > underneath the name so there's no question as to which viewer
> > > people would download if they came in search of your own.
> > >
> > > If there's anyone else with a