RE: Clean Install and Rol Back to Yosemite has ruined computer

[M. Taylor]

Hello Devin,

I cannot speak to the Alex problem you are having as a great many things depend 
upon the model of the computer you have, the amount of RAM, etc.

However, what is extremely important to know is that you cannot (or rather 
should not) attempt to delete a drive on which you are currently booted.  

In order to partition the internal drive, you must first be booted onto an 
external one.

Think of it like this, you cannot safely raise a house while standing in it's 
living room.  In order to raise a house, you must do so from the outside, 
right?  

Therefore, in Brian's situation, he needs to boot to the install key, then 
launch it's disk utility and proceed from there.  

As for you, if you do not have an install key, you will have to boot to an 
external drive, then proceed from that position.  Of course, you could create 
an install key, if you so choose.

Mark

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Devin Prater
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 11:53 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Clean Install and Rol Back to Yosemite has ruined computer

Okay, I have a question then. I might try doing a clean install, maybe that'll 
fix the Alex choppiness issue I've been having for years, although it may just 
be a 4gig ram thing. So do I just go to the repair partition, where it is 
possible to reformat and all that, and simply delete the main part of the disk 
where all the files and documents and all are, and just reinstall the system 
with that? Or is it more complex than that? I forgot how I used to reinstall 
the system before, but not even that helped the Alex issue.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 1:42 AM, M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Hello Brian,
> 
> I am so sorry that your experience has been this difficult.
> 
> To be honest, I wanted to caution you about how to install Yosemite after 
> having first upgraded to El Capitan.  I did not, given that you were already 
> on your proverbial way, as it were.  I was hoping that all would be well but 
> since it clearly is not, I will now post my recommendation.
> 
> When I learned that you were attempting to roll back to Yosemite, I wanted to 
> caution you that merely installing Yosemite, even after erasing your disk may 
> not be completely successful.  
> 
> The only way, in my opinion, to get a truly clean install is to delete the 
> entire partition of the internal drive before installing an OS.
> 
> While I am not making any excuses for your experience, the truth of the 
> matter is that your project is not as simple as it would appear.  Therefore, 
> you should not be too hard on yourself or on the operating system.
> 
> Things work the way they work and it takes time to understand how it's all 
> put together.  The truth of the matter is that Apple provides the only OS, of 
> which I am aware, in which we, blind and low vision, can be truly self 
> supporting.  That does not mean, however, that there is no learning curve.
> 
> Having said all of this, were you to have asked before undertaking this 
> project I would have recommended that you first learn how to use the Startup 
> disk option located in the System Preferences area.  Then I would have 
> suggested that you explore the Disk Utilities application in order to 
> familiarize yourself with its layout and how VoiceOver interacts with it.  I 
> would have advised you to attach a drive or two, to your Mac and practice 
> formatting, partitioning and re-partitioning the practice drive.  These 
> skills are important, especially when dealing with a primary disk partition 
> on an internal drive.
> 
> Then, and only then, would I have recommended that you perform a complete 
> fresh install after first having deleted the partition of the internal drive.
> 
> As it stands, I hope you will not give up on this project as, like it or not, 
> it is an excellent learning opportunity.
> 
> In short, just try again.  Keep trying until you get it right.
> 
> When I was learning how to do these things, sometimes, I had to make the 
> attempt as many as three times before I was successful.  Each time through, 
> however, I learned something new about both the OS and, more importantly, 
> about myself.  
> 
> One more thing, just as a side note, what I and many others do is to install 
> a program like Super Duper in order to clone the internal drive to an 
> external one, before upgrading to a new OS.  Then, should we decide to 
> rollback, as it were, we only need to copy the cloned copy from the external 
> drive back to the internal one.  The cloned drive is also bootable.  
> 
> Hang in there and know that we're all here, ready to assist.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fischler
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 10:41 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Clean Insta

Re: Clean Install and Rol Back to Yosemite has ruined computer

[Devin Prater]

Gosh, everything depends on a flash drive nowadays. Ah well, I'll buy one at 
some point and try it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 2:12 AM, M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Hello Devin,
> 
> I cannot speak to the Alex problem you are having as a great many things 
> depend upon the model of the computer you have, the amount of RAM, etc.
> 
> However, what is extremely important to know is that you cannot (or rather 
> should not) attempt to delete a drive on which you are currently booted.  
> 
> In order to partition the internal drive, you must first be booted onto an 
> external one.
> 
> Think of it like this, you cannot safely raise a house while standing in it's 
> living room.  In order to raise a house, you must do so from the outside, 
> right?  
> 
> Therefore, in Brian's situation, he needs to boot to the install key, then 
> launch it's disk utility and proceed from there.  
> 
> As for you, if you do not have an install key, you will have to boot to an 
> external drive, then proceed from that position.  Of course, you could create 
> an install key, if you so choose.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Devin Prater
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 11:53 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Clean Install and Rol Back to Yosemite has ruined computer
> 
> Okay, I have a question then. I might try doing a clean install, maybe 
> that'll fix the Alex choppiness issue I've been having for years, although it 
> may just be a 4gig ram thing. So do I just go to the repair partition, where 
> it is possible to reformat and all that, and simply delete the main part of 
> the disk where all the files and documents and all are, and just reinstall 
> the system with that? Or is it more complex than that? I forgot how I used to 
> reinstall the system before, but not even that helped the Alex issue.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2015, at 1:42 AM, M. Taylor  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Brian,
>> 
>> I am so sorry that your experience has been this difficult.
>> 
>> To be honest, I wanted to caution you about how to install Yosemite after 
>> having first upgraded to El Capitan.  I did not, given that you were already 
>> on your proverbial way, as it were.  I was hoping that all would be well but 
>> since it clearly is not, I will now post my recommendation.
>> 
>> When I learned that you were attempting to roll back to Yosemite, I wanted 
>> to caution you that merely installing Yosemite, even after erasing your disk 
>> may not be completely successful.  
>> 
>> The only way, in my opinion, to get a truly clean install is to delete the 
>> entire partition of the internal drive before installing an OS.
>> 
>> While I am not making any excuses for your experience, the truth of the 
>> matter is that your project is not as simple as it would appear.  Therefore, 
>> you should not be too hard on yourself or on the operating system.
>> 
>> Things work the way they work and it takes time to understand how it's all 
>> put together.  The truth of the matter is that Apple provides the only OS, 
>> of which I am aware, in which we, blind and low vision, can be truly self 
>> supporting.  That does not mean, however, that there is no learning curve.
>> 
>> Having said all of this, were you to have asked before undertaking this 
>> project I would have recommended that you first learn how to use the Startup 
>> disk option located in the System Preferences area.  Then I would have 
>> suggested that you explore the Disk Utilities application in order to 
>> familiarize yourself with its layout and how VoiceOver interacts with it.  I 
>> would have advised you to attach a drive or two, to your Mac and practice 
>> formatting, partitioning and re-partitioning the practice drive.  These 
>> skills are important, especially when dealing with a primary disk partition 
>> on an internal drive.
>> 
>> Then, and only then, would I have recommended that you perform a complete 
>> fresh install after first having deleted the partition of the internal drive.
>> 
>> As it stands, I hope you will not give up on this project as, like it or 
>> not, it is an excellent learning opportunity.
>> 
>> In short, just try again.  Keep trying until you get it right.
>> 
>> When I was learning how to do these things, sometimes, I had to make the 
>> attempt as many as three times before I was successful.  Each time through, 
>> however, I learned something new about both the OS and, more importantly, 
>> about myself.  
>> 
>> One more thing, just as a side note, what I and many others do is to install 
>> a program like Super Duper in order to clone the internal drive to an 
>> external one, before upgrading to a new OS.  Then, should we decide to 
>> rollback, as it were, we only need to copy the cloned copy from the external 
>> drive back to the internal one.  The cloned drive is also bootable.  
>> 
>> Han

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

My problem is I use Jaws at work, tried NDVA, used it for a while and didn't 
like it. The only two screenreaders I like is Jaws and Voice Over. The Mac 
because everything is built in and the hardware quality to none! If both my 
computers last over ten years or more then it's a worth investment.

Just my thoughts.

Kawal.   

Sent from my iPhone

> On 17 Oct 2015, at 1:10 a.m., Ryan Mann  wrote:
> 
> NVDA is free and it keeps improving.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 12:18 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
>> 
>> The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes with 
>> the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small windows 
>> lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish there was 
>> better Braille sufport on the Mac. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:
>>> 
>>> They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about the 
>>> only way we'll get any progress.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
 
 Hey guy,
 
 Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
 next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original novice 
 concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list. 
 
 Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
 posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO users 
 on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. Thankfully I 
 will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some more backups. 
 Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out when they shit the 
 bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 9 and El Capitan were 
 going to be focused on Quality Control instead of fancy new things. Well, 
 how can Apple expect any VO user that they seriously test VO when safari 
 on a lot of websites is absolutely unusable. It is great that VO seems to 
 be much snappier but with it constantly crashing and turning on and off it 
 is unusable, and I am finding the same issue in chrome on the same 
 websites so it is definitely VO.
 
 Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not read 
 things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and you will 
 constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then back down 
 again to get VO to read it. These two issues alone are so severe that 
 Apple should fire anyone doing Quality Control for VO or they just do not 
 care about the quality of it. Very disappointed in Apple again.
> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
> 
> This is why it’s always best to wait until at least the first, and 
> sometimes the second major update before installing a new version of the 
> operating system, let the major bugs get worked out first.
>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Sadam Ahmed  wrote:
>> 
>> This is why I have Rolled back  to Yosemite. 
>> 
>> These are some of the worst bugs I've seen since I started using the Mac 
>> back in 2010. 
>> 
>> Won't be updating until a  update comes out to address these problems. 
>> 
>> Yours truly, 
>> 
>> Sadam Ahmed 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 16 Oct 2015, at 9:16 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is that with the official build, or is that with the private beta?  I 
>>> confess I really haven't tried doing anything with Safari over there 
>>> since I finally got successfully updated.  How are people getting 
>>> around this being that surfing the web is so heavily done now adays 
>>> with computers?  Are folks just using Crome instead?  What about 
>>> Webkit?  Is it any better?
>>> 
>>> Chris.
>>> 
>>> - Original Message - From: "Daniel Miller" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Safari on 10.11 is pretty pathetic right now. It’s the worst experience 
>>> I’ve ever had while using OS X.
>>> 
 On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu  
 wrote:
 
 Hello.
 
 Just been using Safari as I went to the online RNIB library catalogue. 
 Safari is terrible on that website and I wonder if Safari is broken?  
 Once I sign in and browse for books either in braille or for Talking 
 books, Safari won’t read the search results as it keeps saying 
 dialogue.  Also I am going to try out Overdrive again in due course so 
 I hope it’s been fixed with IOS9 as I had problems with it when I 
 tried it on the I phone 6 Plus.  Now I am using the 6 Plus S wonde

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Krister Ekstrom]

I don’t know if it’s just me or if my stupidity is once again showing its face, 
but i’m having no problems at all whatsoever with Safari. I think El Cap is the 
best Os version in a long while, something for which i’ll probably be called 
names. Furthermore i’m very loyal and thankful to Apple for what they actually 
have done for us and so i don’t complain.
/Krister

> 16 okt. 2015 kl. 18:33 skrev Mary Otten :
> 
> Jaws is not the only game in town for windows. There is nvda, which is quite 
> respectable these days. The argument that you get a freebie with a Mac and 
> Windows screen readers are expensive just doesn't cut it anymore, especially 
> with Apple producing but here releases of OS X when they are supposed to be 
> "rock solid". I bought my first mac went snow leopard was the current version 
> of OS X. It was pretty solid. Since then, there certainly have been 
> improvements in  voiceover features. I still believe it is clear that Apple 
> has made for more of a commitment to accessibility then has Microsoft. After 
> all, the new edge browser is totally inaccessible to all but the experimental 
> support with the latest build of NVDA. However, Apple is quite open about 
> this commitment, therefore, they have set themselves a higher standard. And 
> they are not meeting it with this new release. When they release a product 
> with serious voiceover issues, they are sending a message that their 
> commitment to accessibility is not quite up to the standard of their 
> commitment to those who do not need accessibility features. Is that really 
> what they want to do?
> Mary
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
>> 
>> The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes with 
>> the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small windows 
>> lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish there was 
>> better Braille sufport on the Mac. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:
>>> 
>>> They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about the 
>>> only way we'll get any progress.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
 
 Hey guy,
 
 Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
 next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original novice 
 concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list. 
 
 Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
 posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO users 
 on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. Thankfully I 
 will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some more backups. 
 Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out when they shit the 
 bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 9 and El Capitan were 
 going to be focused on Quality Control instead of fancy new things. Well, 
 how can Apple expect any VO user that they seriously test VO when safari 
 on a lot of websites is absolutely unusable. It is great that VO seems to 
 be much snappier but with it constantly crashing and turning on and off it 
 is unusable, and I am finding the same issue in chrome on the same 
 websites so it is definitely VO.
 
 Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not read 
 things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and you will 
 constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then back down 
 again to get VO to read it. These two issues alone are so severe that 
 Apple should fire anyone doing Quality Control for VO or they just do not 
 care about the quality of it. Very disappointed in Apple again.
> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
> 
> This is why it’s always best to wait until at least the first, and 
> sometimes the second major update before installing a new version of the 
> operating system, let the major bugs get worked out first.
>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Sadam Ahmed  wrote:
>> 
>> This is why I have Rolled back  to Yosemite. 
>> 
>> These are some of the worst bugs I've seen since I started using the Mac 
>> back in 2010. 
>> 
>> Won't be updating until a  update comes out to address these problems. 
>> 
>> Yours truly, 
>> 
>> Sadam Ahmed 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 16 Oct 2015, at 9:16 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is that with the official build, or is that with the private beta?  I 
>>> confess I really haven't tried doing anything with Safari over there 
>>> since I finally got successfully updated.  How are people getting 
>>> around this being that surfing the web i

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Krister Ekstrom]

Just a followup, i would never ever ever go back to windows, i’ll follow the 
mac into the grave and beyond and still be loyal and thankful.
/Krister

> 17 okt. 2015 kl. 10:11 skrev Krister Ekstrom :
> 
> I don’t know if it’s just me or if my stupidity is once again showing its 
> face, but i’m having no problems at all whatsoever with Safari. I think El 
> Cap is the best Os version in a long while, something for which i’ll probably 
> be called names. Furthermore i’m very loyal and thankful to Apple for what 
> they actually have done for us and so i don’t complain.
> /Krister
> 
>> 16 okt. 2015 kl. 18:33 skrev Mary Otten :
>> 
>> Jaws is not the only game in town for windows. There is nvda, which is quite 
>> respectable these days. The argument that you get a freebie with a Mac and 
>> Windows screen readers are expensive just doesn't cut it anymore, especially 
>> with Apple producing but here releases of OS X when they are supposed to be 
>> "rock solid". I bought my first mac went snow leopard was the current 
>> version of OS X. It was pretty solid. Since then, there certainly have been 
>> improvements in  voiceover features. I still believe it is clear that Apple 
>> has made for more of a commitment to accessibility then has Microsoft. After 
>> all, the new edge browser is totally inaccessible to all but the 
>> experimental support with the latest build of NVDA. However, Apple is quite 
>> open about this commitment, therefore, they have set themselves a higher 
>> standard. And they are not meeting it with this new release. When they 
>> release a product with serious voiceover issues, they are sending a message 
>> that their commitment to accessibility is not quite up to the standard of 
>> their commitment to those who do not need accessibility features. Is that 
>> really what they want to do?
>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes 
>>> with the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small 
>>> windows lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish there 
>>> was better Braille sufport on the Mac. 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:
 
 They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about 
 the only way we'll get any progress.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
> 
> Hey guy,
> 
> Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
> next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original 
> novice concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list. 
> 
> Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
> posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO 
> users on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. 
> Thankfully I will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some more 
> backups. Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out when they 
> shit the bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 9 and El 
> Capitan were going to be focused on Quality Control instead of fancy new 
> things. Well, how can Apple expect any VO user that they seriously test 
> VO when safari on a lot of websites is absolutely unusable. It is great 
> that VO seems to be much snappier but with it constantly crashing and 
> turning on and off it is unusable, and I am finding the same issue in 
> chrome on the same websites so it is definitely VO.
> 
> Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not read 
> things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and you will 
> constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then back down 
> again to get VO to read it. These two issues alone are so severe that 
> Apple should fire anyone doing Quality Control for VO or they just do not 
> care about the quality of it. Very disappointed in Apple again.
>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
>> 
>> This is why it’s always best to wait until at least the first, and 
>> sometimes the second major update before installing a new version of the 
>> operating system, let the major bugs get worked out first.
>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Sadam Ahmed  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is why I have Rolled back  to Yosemite. 
>>> 
>>> These are some of the worst bugs I've seen since I started using the 
>>> Mac back in 2010. 
>>> 
>>> Won't be updating until a  update comes out to address these problems. 
>>> 
>>> Yours truly, 
>>> 
>>> Sadam Ahmed 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On 16 Oct 2015, at 9:16 AM, Christopher-Mark Gillan

Re: Help with rolling back to Yosemite as I am stuck

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

I would just like to point something  out to Mark. I hope he does not mind. 

Last week, I arraised my SSD drive on my I mac, and whilst there was nothing on 
it, I put my USB key in to the mac without choosing the start up disk in 
preferences. I then put the Mac on and after 3 or 4 minutes, pressed command F5 
and I was in the menu of whether or not I wanted to install El Capitan.

Thanks.

Kawal.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On 17 Oct 2015, at 1:12 a.m., M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Hello Brian,
> 
> This is Mark.
> 
> One can absolutely perform a clean install, without sighted assistance, 
> provided that they use the Startup Disk option located in the System 
> Preferences panel.  
> 
> The general order of things are as follows:
> 
> 1.
> While your Mac is booted up to it's normal finder Desktop, insert a USB key 
> containing the install of your preferred OS, into the Mac..
> 
> 2.
> From the Apple menu, select System Preferences.
> 
> 3.
> Select Startup Disk.
> 
> 4.
> Now, select the USB key in which you want to boot when the computer restarts.
> 
> 5.
> Restart the Mac and it will boot directly into the USB key.  
> 
> 6.
> Now, enable VoiceOver and you're good to go.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fischler
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 5:01 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Help with rolling back to Yosemite as I am stuck
> 
> Chris then how do people say you can do this without sighted help? As I have 
> read people have been doing clean installs via a bootable usb drive with VO. 
> Thanks,
>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 7:57 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> I cannot tell you if there is only one thing you're tabbing to, or how many 
>> times to do so.  That depends on how many startup disk volumes are 
>> configured on your system.
>> 
>> You do have the general idea correct though.
>> 
>> As for when to turn on Voiceover, once the system boots, then turn it on. 
>> You may have to try several times, but eventually, it should come up.
>> 
>> I hope you're not running into the same nightmare I ran into.
>> 
>> Finally, I wound up having to reformat and just install from scratch with a 
>> bootable USB drive, and not run a disk backup image.
>> 
>> Chris.
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: "Brian Fischler" 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 7:52 PM
>> Subject: Re: Help with rolling back to Yosemite as I am stuck
>> 
>> 
>> Chris,
>> 
>> 
>> Just wanted to make sure I have this correct. Start the computer while 
>> holding down the option key, then hit tab and enter? Is there only one thing 
>> I am tabbing to? When do I try and turn VO back on? Thanks,
>>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 7:45 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Don't arrow.  That's your problem.  You wanna hit the tab key when in the 
>>> boot menu.  Tab and shift tab.  Don't arrow.
>>> 
>>> Chris.
>>> 
>>> - Original Message - From: "Brian Fischler" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 7:29 PM
>>> Subject: Help with rolling back to Yosemite as I am stuck
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hey all,
>>> 
>>> So I started my roll back to Yosemite and am stuck. I was able to erase the 
>>> El Crapitan from my hard drive but do not seem to get VO running when I try 
>>> and boot up with my bootable USB Install Yosemite drive. Everything I have 
>>> read says you have to restart your computer and hold the option screen to 
>>> get to the screen with your bootable thumb drive on it. For some reason I 
>>> am thinking this screen might not work with VO as I waited over an hour and 
>>> could not get VO to turn on. Does anyone happen to know how to arrow 
>>> without VO running to get your bootable disc to launch? If not, is there 
>>> anyway to boot in to your drive using disk utility as I am back in disc 
>>> utility but do not see anywhere I can do this and selecting reinstall OS 
>>> and hitting continue just gives me a you are not connected to the internet 
>>> error message. Thanks for any help.
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://group

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Devin Prater]

It is, but uses MTP filetransfer protocol.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 16, 2015, at 4:05 PM, David Chittenden  wrote:
> 
> Is the Vario file system like braille note and braille sense? If so, it is 
> probably running Windows CE 6, the last windows mobile system that was 
> accessible. Note: that system was new in 2007.
> 
> David Chittenden, MSc, MRCAA
> Email: dchitten...@gmail.com
> Mobile: +64 21 2288 288
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 17 Oct 2015, at 06:21, Devin Prater  wrote:
>> 
>> Furthermore, the Mac cannot even handle the filesystem of the new 
>> VarioUltra, the display I have, although the braille display can't emulate 
>> keyboard commands on the iPhone, so I now use my keys to go keyboard a lot 
>> more.Anyways, I might use the Mac for pages, as scanning back and forth for 
>> spelling errors is literally the best feature of voiceover for me.Gosh, if 
>> the Mac were more stable for me, and had less voiceover bugs, I'd happily 
>> use it a lot more. But for now, the iPhone is all I really use.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 11:18 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
>>> 
>>> The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes 
>>> with the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small 
>>> windows lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish there 
>>> was better Braille sufport on the Mac. 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:
 
 They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about 
 the only way we'll get any progress.
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
> 
> Hey guy,
> 
> Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
> next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original 
> novice concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list. 
> 
> Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
> posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO 
> users on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. 
> Thankfully I will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some more 
> backups. Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out when they 
> shit the bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 9 and El 
> Capitan were going to be focused on Quality Control instead of fancy new 
> things. Well, how can Apple expect any VO user that they seriously test 
> VO when safari on a lot of websites is absolutely unusable. It is great 
> that VO seems to be much snappier but with it constantly crashing and 
> turning on and off it is unusable, and I am finding the same issue in 
> chrome on the same websites so it is definitely VO.
> 
> Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not read 
> things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and you will 
> constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then back down 
> again to get VO to read it. These two issues alone are so severe that 
> Apple should fire anyone doing Quality Control for VO or they just do not 
> care about the quality of it. Very disappointed in Apple again.
>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
>> 
>> This is why it’s always best to wait until at least the first, and 
>> sometimes the second major update before installing a new version of the 
>> operating system, let the major bugs get worked out first.
>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Sadam Ahmed  wrote:
>>> 
>>> This is why I have Rolled back  to Yosemite. 
>>> 
>>> These are some of the worst bugs I've seen since I started using the 
>>> Mac back in 2010. 
>>> 
>>> Won't be updating until a  update comes out to address these problems. 
>>> 
>>> Yours truly, 
>>> 
>>> Sadam Ahmed 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
 On 16 Oct 2015, at 9:16 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
  wrote:
 
 Is that with the official build, or is that with the private beta?  I 
 confess I really haven't tried doing anything with Safari over there 
 since I finally got successfully updated.  How are people getting 
 around this being that surfing the web is so heavily done now adays 
 with computers?  Are folks just using Crome instead?  What about 
 Webkit?  Is it any better?
 
 Chris.
 
 - Original Message - From: "Daniel Miller" 
 
 To: 
 Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:12 PM
 Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
 
 
 Hi,
 
 Safari on 10.11 is pretty pathetic right now. It’s the worst 
 experience I’ve ever h

Apps for Apple watch.

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

Hello.

Where does one get Apps for the watch? Also, on the App Store, there is a blood 
Pressure App for the watch. Has anyone used it and would you have to have an 
extra product on you to use it? Has anyone used this App with  Voice Over?  
What is the unlocking App called where you can unlock doors etc? Just like to 
know for my information.

Thanks.

Kawal.

Sent from my iPhone

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

The beauty of Braille.

[Kawal Gucukoglu]

I have not used Braille on my I phone for such a long time, I have forgotten 
how beautiful it is. I just wish I could use Braille on my I Mac or Mac Mini 
and you could do the same with it as you do on an I phone!

Kawal.

Sent from my iPhone

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Help with rolling back to Yosemite as I am stuck

[Brian Fischler]

Well unfortunately the clean install seems to have completely broken my mac. 
This whole experience from El Capitan to the clean install has been awful. The 
clean install process took hours with VO not speaking or being responsive 
through a lot of it. When I got to the setup menu VO would start reading a 
sentence and then stop. I had to toggle VO on and off several times to get it 
to start reading. I could not connect to my wifi network during the setup 
process as the password field would not come up not even trying window chooser 
would show it so I had to continue selecting my computer does not connect to 
the internet. Since the setup process has completed VO is awful as it will 
start reading something then stop not even finish reading what it is focus on. 
VO is more unstable then it has ever been. Programs will not launch, and I am 
getting static constantly when VO speaks as if I was moving to a radio station 
that was not there. Absolutely awful experience, and yeah I will be calling 
Apple Accessibility when they open. Very disappointed overall with Apple and 
this experience.
> On Oct 17, 2015, at 4:17 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> I would just like to point something  out to Mark. I hope he does not mind. 
> 
> Last week, I arraised my SSD drive on my I mac, and whilst there was nothing 
> on it, I put my USB key in to the mac without choosing the start up disk in 
> preferences. I then put the Mac on and after 3 or 4 minutes, pressed command 
> F5 and I was in the menu of whether or not I wanted to install El Capitan.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Kawal.  
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On 17 Oct 2015, at 1:12 a.m., M. Taylor  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Brian,
>> 
>> This is Mark.
>> 
>> One can absolutely perform a clean install, without sighted assistance, 
>> provided that they use the Startup Disk option located in the System 
>> Preferences panel.  
>> 
>> The general order of things are as follows:
>> 
>> 1.
>> While your Mac is booted up to it's normal finder Desktop, insert a USB key 
>> containing the install of your preferred OS, into the Mac..
>> 
>> 2.
>> From the Apple menu, select System Preferences.
>> 
>> 3.
>> Select Startup Disk.
>> 
>> 4.
>> Now, select the USB key in which you want to boot when the computer restarts.
>> 
>> 5.
>> Restart the Mac and it will boot directly into the USB key.  
>> 
>> 6.
>> Now, enable VoiceOver and you're good to go.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Brian Fischler
>> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 5:01 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Help with rolling back to Yosemite as I am stuck
>> 
>> Chris then how do people say you can do this without sighted help? As I have 
>> read people have been doing clean installs via a bootable usb drive with VO. 
>> Thanks,
>>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 7:57 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I cannot tell you if there is only one thing you're tabbing to, or how many 
>>> times to do so.  That depends on how many startup disk volumes are 
>>> configured on your system.
>>> 
>>> You do have the general idea correct though.
>>> 
>>> As for when to turn on Voiceover, once the system boots, then turn it on. 
>>> You may have to try several times, but eventually, it should come up.
>>> 
>>> I hope you're not running into the same nightmare I ran into.
>>> 
>>> Finally, I wound up having to reformat and just install from scratch with a 
>>> bootable USB drive, and not run a disk backup image.
>>> 
>>> Chris.
>>> 
>>> - Original Message - From: "Brian Fischler" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 7:52 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Help with rolling back to Yosemite as I am stuck
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Chris,
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Just wanted to make sure I have this correct. Start the computer while 
>>> holding down the option key, then hit tab and enter? Is there only one 
>>> thing I am tabbing to? When do I try and turn VO back on? Thanks,
 On Oct 16, 2015, at 7:45 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
  wrote:
 
 Don't arrow.  That's your problem.  You wanna hit the tab key when in the 
 boot menu.  Tab and shift tab.  Don't arrow.
 
 Chris.
 
 - Original Message - From: "Brian Fischler" 
 To: 
 Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 7:29 PM
 Subject: Help with rolling back to Yosemite as I am stuck
 
 
 Hey all,
 
 So I started my roll back to Yosemite and am stuck. I was able to erase 
 the El Crapitan from my hard drive but do not seem to get VO running when 
 I try and boot up with my bootable USB Install Yosemite drive. Everything 
 I have read says you have to restart your computer and hold the option 
 screen to get to the screen with your bootable thumb drive on it. For some 
 reason I am thinking this screen might not work with VO as I waited over 
 an hour and could not get VO to turn on. Does anyo

Re: Clean Install and Rol Back to Yosemite has ruined computer

[Brian Fischler]

Hey Mark,

Thanks so much for your nice message. Yes, feeling so defeated that I got a 
whopping two hours sleep. And in case you did not see my other post, the mac is 
now running awful even so much as getting a weird distortion with VO that I 
have never ever seen before. Apps will not launch, and VO only works for a few 
seconds here and there. I would love any advice on what to do now as I am 
thinking I am going to have to do the clean install again as something is 
definitely wrong more serious then just a serious disappointing El Capitan. I 
have the thumb drive with Yosemite and two external drives unfortunately both 
have stuff on it so cannot delete a drive to patron it. One drive does have a 
bunch of time machine backups so not sure if there might be something there I 
could role back to as it might be all El Capitan backups would have to check 
but if you have the time any step by step instructions you could suggest on 
where to go from here would be great. i am going to call Apple Accessibility 
some time today but am going to be at an expo for part of today. Thanks,
> On Oct 17, 2015, at 3:25 AM, Devin Prater  wrote:
> 
> Gosh, everything depends on a flash drive nowadays. Ah well, I'll buy one at 
> some point and try it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2015, at 2:12 AM, M. Taylor  wrote:
>> 
>> Hello Devin,
>> 
>> I cannot speak to the Alex problem you are having as a great many things 
>> depend upon the model of the computer you have, the amount of RAM, etc.
>> 
>> However, what is extremely important to know is that you cannot (or rather 
>> should not) attempt to delete a drive on which you are currently booted.  
>> 
>> In order to partition the internal drive, you must first be booted onto an 
>> external one.
>> 
>> Think of it like this, you cannot safely raise a house while standing in 
>> it's living room.  In order to raise a house, you must do so from the 
>> outside, right?  
>> 
>> Therefore, in Brian's situation, he needs to boot to the install key, then 
>> launch it's disk utility and proceed from there.  
>> 
>> As for you, if you do not have an install key, you will have to boot to an 
>> external drive, then proceed from that position.  Of course, you could 
>> create an install key, if you so choose.
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Devin Prater
>> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 11:53 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Clean Install and Rol Back to Yosemite has ruined computer
>> 
>> Okay, I have a question then. I might try doing a clean install, maybe 
>> that'll fix the Alex choppiness issue I've been having for years, although 
>> it may just be a 4gig ram thing. So do I just go to the repair partition, 
>> where it is possible to reformat and all that, and simply delete the main 
>> part of the disk where all the files and documents and all are, and just 
>> reinstall the system with that? Or is it more complex than that? I forgot 
>> how I used to reinstall the system before, but not even that helped the Alex 
>> issue.
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2015, at 1:42 AM, M. Taylor  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Brian,
>>> 
>>> I am so sorry that your experience has been this difficult.
>>> 
>>> To be honest, I wanted to caution you about how to install Yosemite after 
>>> having first upgraded to El Capitan.  I did not, given that you were 
>>> already on your proverbial way, as it were.  I was hoping that all would be 
>>> well but since it clearly is not, I will now post my recommendation.
>>> 
>>> When I learned that you were attempting to roll back to Yosemite, I wanted 
>>> to caution you that merely installing Yosemite, even after erasing your 
>>> disk may not be completely successful.  
>>> 
>>> The only way, in my opinion, to get a truly clean install is to delete the 
>>> entire partition of the internal drive before installing an OS.
>>> 
>>> While I am not making any excuses for your experience, the truth of the 
>>> matter is that your project is not as simple as it would appear.  
>>> Therefore, you should not be too hard on yourself or on the operating 
>>> system.
>>> 
>>> Things work the way they work and it takes time to understand how it's all 
>>> put together.  The truth of the matter is that Apple provides the only OS, 
>>> of which I am aware, in which we, blind and low vision, can be truly self 
>>> supporting.  That does not mean, however, that there is no learning curve.
>>> 
>>> Having said all of this, were you to have asked before undertaking this 
>>> project I would have recommended that you first learn how to use the 
>>> Startup disk option located in the System Preferences area.  Then I would 
>>> have suggested that you explore the Disk Utilities application in order to 
>>> familiarize yourself with its layout and how VoiceOver interacts with it.  
>>> I would have advised you to a

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
So how do i move settings from my old mac mini with el capitan beta to the new 
macbook air with Yosemite?
Can this be done?
/A
> On 16 Oct 2015, at 10:31, Brian Fischler  wrote:
> 
> Oh yeah, and I can’t tell you how much I love the new mail bug when I delete 
> a thread of messages and then a few minutes later a error message pops up 
> telling me the previous batch of messages can’t be moved to the trash. Way to 
> go Apple that is an impressive one. Why would anyone want to delete messages 
> they have read. 
>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 4:20 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
>> 
>> It’s report-a-bug Friday.  Why not send Apple a note? :)
>> 
>> For myself, my El Cap install is back to its old Yosemite ways, with Mail 
>> being back to a crawl with large folders.  I have no idea why, but rolling 
>> back is no option, either.  So, yeah, accept the way things are, and suffer. 
>>  Oh, and tell Apple about it.  Or go back to Windows …
>> 
>> Finally, consider that there are new Macs shipping with El Cap.  It’s 
>> true—we’re the minority.  Let us not forget …
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Well i don’t see much of the issues you’re all talking about but i still use my 
windows and linux system for much of my web surfing as i want to have good 
braille support when using the web.
/A
> On 16 Oct 2015, at 15:29, Phil Halton  wrote:
> 
> Windows is starting to look like an option again. Glad I never left it and 
> kept it as a VM on my MBA. Maybe it's time to get a Windows machine with NVDA 
> and Jaws 
> 
> Sent from my IPhone
> 
> 
>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 4:31 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
>> 
>> Oh yeah, and I can’t tell you how much I love the new mail bug when I delete 
>> a thread of messages and then a few minutes later a error message pops up 
>> telling me the previous batch of messages can’t be moved to the trash. Way 
>> to go Apple that is an impressive one. Why would anyone want to delete 
>> messages they have read. 
>>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 4:20 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
>>> 
>>> It’s report-a-bug Friday.  Why not send Apple a note? :)
>>> 
>>> For myself, my El Cap install is back to its old Yosemite ways, with Mail 
>>> being back to a crawl with large folders.  I have no idea why, but rolling 
>>> back is no option, either.  So, yeah, accept the way things are, and 
>>> suffer.  Oh, and tell Apple about it.  Or go back to Windows …
>>> 
>>> Finally, consider that there are new Macs shipping with El Cap.  It’s 
>>> true—we’re the minority.  Let us not forget …
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Apps for Apple watch.

[Daniel Miller]

Hi,

You just download them from the app store like normal, and if the app also has 
a watch app, it will say it on the page. Once you have the app downloaded, it 
will show up in the my watch tab.

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 4:29 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> Hello.
> 
> Where does one get Apps for the watch? Also, on the App Store, there is a 
> blood Pressure App for the watch. Has anyone used it and would you have to 
> have an extra product on you to use it? Has anyone used this App with  Voice 
> Over?  What is the unlocking App called where you can unlock doors etc? Just 
> like to know for my information.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> Kawal.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
But we can still complain and say a lot of things about apple here.
But why not let apple hear from us by writing to them.
I still won’t stop using my mac but i want it to be better for people with 
blindness related problems.
So is accessibil...@apple.com the only way to get in touch with them.
/A
> On 16 Oct 2015, at 19:05, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
> 
> I do think Apple is more committed to accessibility than Microsoft, but in 
> the last couple years, Apple's quality control has really suffered, and 
> that's the real issue, they release products without fully testing them. 
> Regarding Windows screen readers, there really is no reason to pay for 
> expensive screen readers anymore. NVDA works very well, and if you have a 
> recent version of Microsoft Office, you can use Window Eyes for free. To pay 
> for Jaws now is simply a waste of money.
> Original message:
>> Jaws is not the only game in town for windows. There is nvda, which is quite 
>> respectable these days. The argument that you get a freebie with a Mac and 
>> Windows screen readers are expensive just doesn't cut it anymore, especially 
>> with Apple producing but here releases of OS X when they are supposed to be 
>> "rock solid". I bought my first mac went snow leopard was the current 
>> version of OS X. It was pretty solid. Since then, there certainly have been 
>> improvements in  voiceover features. I still believe it is clear that Apple 
>> has made for more of a commitment to accessibility then has Microsoft. After 
>> all, the new edge browser is totally inaccessible to all but the 
>> experimental support with the latest build of NVDA. However, Apple is quite 
>> open about this commitment, therefore, they have set themselves a higher 
>> standard. And they are not meeting it with this new release. When they 
>> release a product with serious voiceover issues, they are sending a message 
>> that their commitment to accessibility is not quite up to the standard of 
>> their commitment to those who do not need accessibility features. Is that 
>> really what they want to do?
>> Mary
> 
> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
>>> The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes 
>>> with the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small 
>>> windows lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish there 
>>> was better Braille sufport on the Mac.
> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
 On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:
> 
 They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about 
 the only way we'll get any progress.
> 
 Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
> 
> Hey guy,
> 
> Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
> next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original 
> novice concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list.
> 
> Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
> posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO 
> users on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. 
> Thankfully I will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some more 
> backups. Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out when they 
> shit the bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 9 and El 
> Capitan were going to be focused on Quality Control instead of fancy new 
> things. Well, how can Apple expect any VO user that they seriously test 
> VO when safari on a lot of websites is absolutely unusable. It is great 
> that VO seems to be much snappier but with it constantly crashing and 
> turning on and off it is unusable, and I am finding the same issue in 
> chrome on the same websites so it is definitely VO.
> 
> Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not read 
> things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and you will 
> constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then back down 
> again to get VO to read it. These two issues alone are so severe that 
> Apple should fire anyone doing Quality Control for VO or they just do not 
> care about the quality of it. Very disappointed in Apple again.
>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
> 
>> This is why it’s always best to wait until at least the first, and 
>> sometimes the second major update before installing a new version of the 
>> operating system, let the major bugs get worked out first.
>>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Sadam Ahmed  wrote:
> 
>>> This is why I have Rolled back  to Yosemite.
> 
>>> These are some of the worst bugs I've seen since I started using the 
>>> Mac back in 2010.
> 
>>> Won't be updating until a  update comes out to address these problems.
> 
>>> Yours truly,
> 
>>

RE: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[george b]

Your correct, but don't you all think after 3 days of this subject line it is 
time to move on with a new subject??
J m t

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Anders Holmberg
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 05:52
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

Hi!
But we can still complain and say a lot of things about apple here.
But why not let apple hear from us by writing to them.
I still won’t stop using my mac but i want it to be better for people with 
blindness related problems.
So is accessibil...@apple.com the only way to get in touch with them.
/A
> On 16 Oct 2015, at 19:05, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
> 
> I do think Apple is more committed to accessibility than Microsoft, but in 
> the last couple years, Apple's quality control has really suffered, and 
> that's the real issue, they release products without fully testing them. 
> Regarding Windows screen readers, there really is no reason to pay for 
> expensive screen readers anymore. NVDA works very well, and if you have a 
> recent version of Microsoft Office, you can use Window Eyes for free. To pay 
> for Jaws now is simply a waste of money.
> Original message:
>> Jaws is not the only game in town for windows. There is nvda, which is quite 
>> respectable these days. The argument that you get a freebie with a Mac and 
>> Windows screen readers are expensive just doesn't cut it anymore, especially 
>> with Apple producing but here releases of OS X when they are supposed to be 
>> "rock solid". I bought my first mac went snow leopard was the current 
>> version of OS X. It was pretty solid. Since then, there certainly have been 
>> improvements in  voiceover features. I still believe it is clear that Apple 
>> has made for more of a commitment to accessibility then has Microsoft. After 
>> all, the new edge browser is totally inaccessible to all but the 
>> experimental support with the latest build of NVDA. However, Apple is quite 
>> open about this commitment, therefore, they have set themselves a higher 
>> standard. And they are not meeting it with this new release. When they 
>> release a product with serious voiceover issues, they are sending a message 
>> that their commitment to accessibility is not quite up to the standard of 
>> their commitment to those who do not need accessibility features. Is that 
>> really what they want to do?
>> Mary
> 
> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
>>> The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes 
>>> with the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small 
>>> windows lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish there 
>>> was better Braille sufport on the Mac.
> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
 On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:
> 
 They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about 
 the only way we'll get any progress.
> 
 Sent from my iPhone
> 
> On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
> 
> Hey guy,
> 
> Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
> next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original 
> novice concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list.
> 
> Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
> posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO 
> users on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. 
> Thankfully I will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some more 
> backups. Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out when they 
> shit the bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 9 and El 
> Capitan were going to be focused on Quality Control instead of fancy new 
> things. Well, how can Apple expect any VO user that they seriously test 
> VO when safari on a lot of websites is absolutely unusable. It is great 
> that VO seems to be much snappier but with it constantly crashing and 
> turning on and off it is unusable, and I am finding the same issue in 
> chrome on the same websites so it is definitely VO.
> 
> Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not read 
> things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and you will 
> constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then back down 
> again to get VO to read it. These two issues alone are so severe that 
> Apple should fire anyone doing Quality Control for VO or they just do not 
> care about the quality of it. Very disappointed in Apple again.
>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
> 
>> This is why it’s always best to wait until at least the first, and 
>> sometimes the second major update before installing a new version of the 
>> operati

Re: Is there a command to move keyboard focus to the mouse?

[Donna Goodin]

Well, it didn't solve my problem, but at least now I know the command.  Guess 
I'll have to just delete the whole account and start from scratch.  What a 
pain.  Another place where Apple could have done better.
Donna
> On Oct 16, 2015, at 7:16 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Hello Donna,
> 
> Use key combo VoiceOver-Key+Shift+F5 to move the keyboard focus to the mouse 
> pointer.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Donna Goodin
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2015 2:26 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Is there a command to move keyboard focus to the mouse?
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> Still working on my Exchange issue.  Is there a way to force the keyboard 
> focus to go to where the mouse is?
> TIA,
> Donna
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: The beauty of Braille.

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

It’s lovely, isn’t it?

Now if they could add a reading mode whereby paragraphs indent two cells, like 
Supernova’s Literary Mode or BrailleNote, that would be just wonderful.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Too many voices on my phone

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Remove all the entries from Language Rotor in Settings.  Once you do, the 
language rotor will disappear.

Be sure to delete downloaded voice data.  Either press More Info for each voice 
and use the swipe-up on the enhanced voice to delete gesture, or the Edit 
button.  Or, if you are using a single language with multiple dialects, choose 
the default dialect option instead of language rotor, and simply perform the 
same gesture for every dialect you don’t want.

I hope this is clear enough …

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Too many voices on my phone

[Stacey Robinson]

Thanks I’ll give this a try.
I just want the Alex voice.

Blessings,
Stacey Robinson and GEB dog Kirk.

mailto:stacey...@bellsouth.net

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 9:52 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> Remove all the entries from Language Rotor in Settings.  Once you do, the 
> language rotor will disappear.
> 
> Be sure to delete downloaded voice data.  Either press More Info for each 
> voice and use the swipe-up on the enhanced voice to delete gesture, or the 
> Edit button.  Or, if you are using a single language with multiple dialects, 
> choose the default dialect option instead of language rotor, and simply 
> perform the same gesture for every dialect you don’t want.
> 
> I hope this is clear enough …
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Help with rolling back to Yosemite as I am stuck

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Assuming that your boot drive is the only other drive, and that you have not 
used File Vault or BootCamp, then power up the machine, and when you hear the 
chime (and *only* when you hear the chime) press and hold Option.  Wait a good 
twenty seconds, just to be absolutely damned sure.  Then press left arrow one 
time, and Enter.  Wait, a good minute and possibly more.  Then press VO+F5.  
Turn up your speaker volume (the attached ones) nice and loud so you can 
actually hear the bloody thing.

Now use Disk Utility from the Utilities menu or table to partition your 
internal drive.  Select the physical disk from the table; not the partition.  
It will be named something like “Apple SSD” or “Something something HD Media” 
or something of that nature; choose that, and then the Partition tab.  Create 
one partition of type “Mac OS X Extended (Journaled)”.  Give it a name by 
typing something meaningful into the box (“Macintosh HD” is what it shipped 
with but I always like “Macintosh SSD” on my SSDs).  Press Options, and choose 
GUID Partition Table (it should already be set) and then OK to close that 
dialog box.  Press Apply, and reply to the alert by pressing Partition.  Quit 
Disk Utility, and proceed with the installation to your internal volume, which 
will have the name that you gave it.

Optional, but recommended: after partitioning the disk but before installing, 
shut the machine down from the Apple menu and wait a bit.  Disconnect all 
physical peripherals and cables, including power.  Wait 20 seconds then 
reconnect only the power.  On a portable, press Control+Option+Shift+Power to 
reset the SMC.  Reconnect your USB drive, and then press power; when you hear 
the chime, and again, *only* when you hear the chime, press Command+Option+P+R 
and wait for the machine to chime at least two times; this resets your 
parameter RAM.  Now let up on the keyboard and allow your box to boot up again 
from the USB drive.  Once again press Command+F5, and this time directly 
install onto your internal disk.  You may of course also reconnect your other 
peripherals now.

Important: only Apple-supplied SSDs get TRIM by default and other drives must 
have it manually enabled (yay Apple, keep it up, you’ll see the light yet).  
Unless you modded your Mac you have nothing to fear—and if you modded your Mac, 
you probably don’t need these instructions.  But for those that did, remember 
to invoke the trimforce tool at least once your system is installed to switch 
TRIM on.

That’s everything …

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Clean Install and Rol Back to Yosemite has ruined computer

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

You were quite close really, Brian.  All you failed to do was repartition the 
internal disk.  Once you’ve done that, you can gallop on with the install.

See my other message for tips, assuming Yosemite.  In El Capitan the Disk 
Utility is a somewhat different beast which we shall ignore for the time being. 
 But get into the installer again to start with.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Hey Anders,

No, you cannot restore El Capitan preferences to Yosemite.  Sorry.  You had 
better either have a Yosemite backup, or start from scratch.

As for browsing on the web, it’s just possible that one of the reasons you 
aren’t experiencing the issues others were is that you were using Windows at 
the time. :)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com.  You can also, if you have 
access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file bugs against 
the “Accessibility” classification.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Jamie Pauls]

To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are experiencing. 
What are a few of the worst bugs, here?



Take care and have a great day.
Jamie Pauls
jamiepa...@gmail.com

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com.  You can also, if you have 
> access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file bugs against 
> the “Accessibility” classification.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

No, it's not the only way.

You also can call

1-877-204-3930.

The above e-mail address you gave appears to be a joke.  Every time I write 
them, they hardly ever respond with anything more than thanks, we know about 
the issue, we'll fix it when we feel good and ready to.


Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "Anders Holmberg" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


Hi!
But we can still complain and say a lot of things about apple here.
But why not let apple hear from us by writing to them.
I still won’t stop using my mac but i want it to be better for people with 
blindness related problems.

So is accessibil...@apple.com the only way to get in touch with them.
/A

On 16 Oct 2015, at 19:05, Mike Arrigo  wrote:

I do think Apple is more committed to accessibility than Microsoft, but in 
the last couple years, Apple's quality control has really suffered, and 
that's the real issue, they release products without fully testing them. 
Regarding Windows screen readers, there really is no reason to pay for 
expensive screen readers anymore. NVDA works very well, and if you have a 
recent version of Microsoft Office, you can use Window Eyes for free. To 
pay for Jaws now is simply a waste of money.

Original message:
Jaws is not the only game in town for windows. There is nvda, which is 
quite respectable these days. The argument that you get a freebie with a 
Mac and Windows screen readers are expensive just doesn't cut it anymore, 
especially with Apple producing but here releases of OS X when they are 
supposed to be "rock solid". I bought my first mac went snow leopard was 
the current version of OS X. It was pretty solid. Since then, there 
certainly have been improvements in  voiceover features. I still believe 
it is clear that Apple has made for more of a commitment to accessibility 
then has Microsoft. After all, the new edge browser is totally 
inaccessible to all but the experimental support with the latest build of 
NVDA. However, Apple is quite open about this commitment, therefore, they 
have set themselves a higher standard. And they are not meeting it with 
this new release. When they release a product with serious voiceover 
issues, they are sending a message that their commitment to accessibility 
is not quite up to the standard of their commitment to those who do not 
need accessibility features. Is that really what they want to do?

Mary




Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:


The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes 
with the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small 
windows lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish 
there was better Braille sufport on the Mac.



Sent from my iPhone



On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:


They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about 
the only way we'll get any progress.



Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  
wrote:



Hey guy,


Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original 
novice concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list.


Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO 
users on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. 
Thankfully I will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some 
more backups. Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out 
when they shit the bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 
9 and El Capitan were going to be focused on Quality Control instead 
of fancy new things. Well, how can Apple expect any VO user that they 
seriously test VO when safari on a lot of websites is absolutely 
unusable. It is great that VO seems to be much snappier but with it 
constantly crashing and turning on and off it is unusable, and I am 
finding the same issue in chrome on the same websites so it is 
definitely VO.


Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not 
read things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and 
you will constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then 
back down again to get VO to read it. These two issues alone are so 
severe that Apple should fire anyone doing Quality Control for VO or 
they just do not care about the quality of it. Very disappointed in 
Apple again.

On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:


This is why it’s always best to wait until at least the first, and 
sometimes the second major update before installing a new version of 
the operating system, let the major bugs get worked out first.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Sadam Ahmed  
wrote:



This is why I have Rolled back  to Yosemite.


These are some of the worst bugs I've seen since I started using the 
Mac back

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

I was thinking the same thing.

Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "george b" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 8:56 AM
Subject: RE: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


Your correct, but don't you all think after 3 days of this subject line it 
is time to move on with a new subject??

J m t

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anders Holmberg

Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 05:52
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

Hi!
But we can still complain and say a lot of things about apple here.
But why not let apple hear from us by writing to them.
I still won’t stop using my mac but i want it to be better for people with 
blindness related problems.

So is accessibil...@apple.com the only way to get in touch with them.
/A

On 16 Oct 2015, at 19:05, Mike Arrigo  wrote:

I do think Apple is more committed to accessibility than Microsoft, but in 
the last couple years, Apple's quality control has really suffered, and 
that's the real issue, they release products without fully testing them. 
Regarding Windows screen readers, there really is no reason to pay for 
expensive screen readers anymore. NVDA works very well, and if you have a 
recent version of Microsoft Office, you can use Window Eyes for free. To 
pay for Jaws now is simply a waste of money.

Original message:
Jaws is not the only game in town for windows. There is nvda, which is 
quite respectable these days. The argument that you get a freebie with a 
Mac and Windows screen readers are expensive just doesn't cut it anymore, 
especially with Apple producing but here releases of OS X when they are 
supposed to be "rock solid". I bought my first mac went snow leopard was 
the current version of OS X. It was pretty solid. Since then, there 
certainly have been improvements in  voiceover features. I still believe 
it is clear that Apple has made for more of a commitment to accessibility 
then has Microsoft. After all, the new edge browser is totally 
inaccessible to all but the experimental support with the latest build of 
NVDA. However, Apple is quite open about this commitment, therefore, they 
have set themselves a higher standard. And they are not meeting it with 
this new release. When they release a product with serious voiceover 
issues, they are sending a message that their commitment to accessibility 
is not quite up to the standard of their commitment to those who do not 
need accessibility features. Is that really what they want to do?

Mary




Sent from my iPhone



On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:


The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes 
with the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small 
windows lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish 
there was better Braille sufport on the Mac.



Sent from my iPhone



On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:


They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about 
the only way we'll get any progress.



Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  
wrote:



Hey guy,


Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original 
novice concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list.


Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO 
users on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. 
Thankfully I will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some 
more backups. Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out 
when they shit the bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 
9 and El Capitan were going to be focused on Quality Control instead 
of fancy new things. Well, how can Apple expect any VO user that they 
seriously test VO when safari on a lot of websites is absolutely 
unusable. It is great that VO seems to be much snappier but with it 
constantly crashing and turning on and off it is unusable, and I am 
finding the same issue in chrome on the same websites so it is 
definitely VO.


Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not 
read things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and 
you will constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then 
back down again to get VO to read it. These two issues alone are so 
severe that Apple should fire anyone doing Quality Control for VO or 
they just do not care about the quality of it. Very disappointed in 
Apple again.

On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:


This is why it’s always best to wait until at least the first, and 
sometimes the second major update before installing a new version of 
the operating system, let the major bugs get worked out first.
On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Sadam Ahmed  
wr

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with Jamie.  In 
all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is becoming more 
appealing, we've lost the main topic.  It's so bad now, I don't even know what 
exactly the initial bugs are.

Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward either 
Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I just want the 
facts.

Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.

Chris.

  - Original Message - 
  From: Jamie Pauls 
  To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
  Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
  Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


  To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are experiencing. 
What are a few of the worst bugs, here?






  Take care and have a great day.
  Jamie Pauls
  jamiepa...@gmail.com


On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:


You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com.  You can also, if you have 
access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file bugs against 
the “Accessibility” classification.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.




  -- 
  You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
  To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
  To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
  Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
  For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Not on the braille side.
Nvda is like voiceover on the mac.
/A
> On 17 Oct 2015, at 02:10, Ryan Mann  wrote:
> 
> NVDA is free and it keeps improving.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 12:18 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
>> 
>> The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes with 
>> the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small windows 
>> lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish there was 
>> better Braille sufport on the Mac. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>>> On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:
>>> 
>>> They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about the 
>>> only way we'll get any progress.
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
 
 Hey guy,
 
 Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
 next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original novice 
 concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list. 
 
 Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
 posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO users 
 on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. Thankfully I 
 will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some more backups. 
 Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out when they shit the 
 bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 9 and El Capitan were 
 going to be focused on Quality Control instead of fancy new things. Well, 
 how can Apple expect any VO user that they seriously test VO when safari 
 on a lot of websites is absolutely unusable. It is great that VO seems to 
 be much snappier but with it constantly crashing and turning on and off it 
 is unusable, and I am finding the same issue in chrome on the same 
 websites so it is definitely VO.
 
 Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not read 
 things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and you will 
 constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then back down 
 again to get VO to read it. These two issues alone are so severe that 
 Apple should fire anyone doing Quality Control for VO or they just do not 
 care about the quality of it. Very disappointed in Apple again.
> On Oct 15, 2015, at 10:30 PM, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
> 
> This is why it’s always best to wait until at least the first, and 
> sometimes the second major update before installing a new version of the 
> operating system, let the major bugs get worked out first.
>> On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:42 PM, Sadam Ahmed  wrote:
>> 
>> This is why I have Rolled back  to Yosemite. 
>> 
>> These are some of the worst bugs I've seen since I started using the Mac 
>> back in 2010. 
>> 
>> Won't be updating until a  update comes out to address these problems. 
>> 
>> Yours truly, 
>> 
>> Sadam Ahmed 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone 
>> 
>> -- 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On 16 Oct 2015, at 9:16 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Is that with the official build, or is that with the private beta?  I 
>>> confess I really haven't tried doing anything with Safari over there 
>>> since I finally got successfully updated.  How are people getting 
>>> around this being that surfing the web is so heavily done now adays 
>>> with computers?  Are folks just using Crome instead?  What about 
>>> Webkit?  Is it any better?
>>> 
>>> Chris.
>>> 
>>> - Original Message - From: "Daniel Miller" 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 6:12 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Safari on 10.11 is pretty pathetic right now. It’s the worst experience 
>>> I’ve ever had while using OS X.
>>> 
 On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:41 PM, Kawal Gucukoglu  
 wrote:
 
 Hello.
 
 Just been using Safari as I went to the online RNIB library catalogue. 
 Safari is terrible on that website and I wonder if Safari is broken?  
 Once I sign in and browse for books either in braille or for Talking 
 books, Safari won’t read the search results as it keeps saying 
 dialogue.  Also I am going to try out Overdrive again in due course so 
 I hope it’s been fixed with IOS9 as I had problems with it when I 
 tried it on the I phone 6 Plus.  Now I am using the 6 Plus S wonder if 
 it will improve.
 
 I wish I could get rid of the favourites bar in safari and get it back 
 to how it was when I was using it in Yosemite.  I apologise if I have 
 misspelt the name wrong again but I try to spell it wright.
 
>>

Mail sounds gone in El Capitan

[Anne Robertson]

Hello everyone,

I installed El Capitan today and my only problem is that my Mail sounds are all 
gone. Not just my custom sounds, but the built-in Mail sounds too.
I’ve done the new First Aid thing in Disk Utility. I’ve booted into Safe Mode. 
I’ve reset the SMC. Anyone got any other ideas?
It’s not critical, I just like to know which mailboxes to look in.

Cheers,

Anne


-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Mail sounds gone in El Capitan

[Anne Robertson]

Hello again,

OK, my MBA has made me a liar! Two of my custom Mail sounds have come back, but 
the others seem still to be missing.

Cheers,

Anne


> On 17 Oct 2015, at 20:48, Anne Robertson  wrote:
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I installed El Capitan today and my only problem is that my Mail sounds are 
> all gone. Not just my custom sounds, but the built-in Mail sounds too.
> I’ve done the new First Aid thing in Disk Utility. I’ve booted into Safe 
> Mode. I’ve reset the SMC. Anyone got any other ideas?
> It’s not critical, I just like to know which mailboxes to look in.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Startup disk not detected.

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
I’ve done a usb installer for el capitan with Diskmaker x and when i insert 
this into my mac and go to system preferences and select startup disk i don’t 
see it there.
THe radio button is dimmed.
So any one knows whats wrong?
/A

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Startup disk not detected.

[Michael]

Click the lock in the bottom right-hand corner of the start up disk selection 
window. Then you can choose which start up disk you want to use. The radio 
buttons will become available once you unlock your system preferences. You'll 
need your ministry of password.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:52 AM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> I’ve done a usb installer for el capitan with Diskmaker x and when i insert 
> this into my mac and go to system preferences and select startup disk i don’t 
> see it there.
> THe radio button is dimmed.
> So any one knows whats wrong?
> /A
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Mail sounds gone in El Capitan

[Jürgen Fleger]

Hi Anne,

I’ve heard of a lot of different issues in Mail after installing El Capitan. 
Mainly it’s about crashed mailboxes. You are the first one with sound issues. 
Is Audioducking switched off?

All the best
Jürgen



> Am 17.10.2015 um 20:48 schrieb Anne Robertson :
> 
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I installed El Capitan today and my only problem is that my Mail sounds are 
> all gone. Not just my custom sounds, but the built-in Mail sounds too.
> I’ve done the new First Aid thing in Disk Utility. I’ve booted into Safe 
> Mode. I’ve reset the SMC. Anyone got any other ideas?
> It’s not critical, I just like to know which mailboxes to look in.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[E.T.]

   But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept 
that when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look 
very appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy 
users of iOS devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a 
knee jerk reaction to what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We 
do not need to feed into this.


   Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect. 
Yet how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their 
best to help you? My hat is off to those people.


   We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good 
time to walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there 
fuming.


   A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would 
say, "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the 
drama out of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a 
quick solution. And if you were smart and walked away, you just might 
come back to that solution.


   The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just 
the way we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing 
go wrong and Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing. 
Fact is, human error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no 
escaping that.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
just want the facts.
Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
Chris.

- Original Message -
*From:* Jamie Pauls 
*To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com

*Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
*Subject:* Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are
experiencing. What are a few of the worst bugs, here?



Take care and have a great day.
Jamie Pauls
jamiepa...@gmail.com 


On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu
mailto:listse...@me.com>> wrote:

You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com
.  You can also, if you have
access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file
bugs against the “Accessibility” classification.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to
macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Brian Fischler]

Hi Jamie,

I had serious safari bugs with VO being extremely unstable meaning sites that i 
personally visit a lot fantasy pros and Facebook two that come right to mind 
constantly would cause VO to crash. When I say crash VO would turn off as I 
would hear the click VO makes when you turn it on and then I would hear Welcome 
to VoiceOVer. Additionally on a lot of sites if you were going from link to 
link using your down arrow VO would read one link but not the next link. You 
would have to hit the up arrow then down arrow again and then VO would read the 
next link. Got to be quite frustrating and counterproductive. I did enjoy the 
snappiness and responsiveness of VO in mail, but in mail while going through 
these lists and deleting messages I would constantly get error messages that 
mail could not move the deleted item to the trash therefore cluttering up my 
inbox. 

I decided to roll back to Yosemite which was a bloody awful experience as I got 
something I have never seen before on a mac meaning VO was basically reading a 
word then gone for a minute or two then back and same over and over. Spoke to 
Apple Accessibility this morning and the guy was fantastic. We went over all of 
my issues the exact steps I took and the guy even admitted that yes, VO users 
have had some very serious issues in El Capitan and that the fix is coming 
soon. He then got me started on doing a time machine restore. I left for a few 
hours just got back and thankfully everything is back to running the way it was 
on Yosemite. So yes a lot of frustration and anger, but not once did I say I 
was leaving Apple, and I am quite thankful to have such a valuable resource as 
the Apple Accessibility phone number and Time Machine.
> On Oct 17, 2015, at 3:44 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept that 
> when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look very 
> appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy users of iOS 
> devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a knee jerk reaction to 
> what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We do not need to feed into 
> this.
> 
>   Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect. Yet 
> how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their best to help 
> you? My hat is off to those people.
> 
>   We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good time to 
> walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there fuming.
> 
>   A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would say, 
> "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the drama out 
> of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a quick solution. 
> And if you were smart and walked away, you just might come back to that 
> solution.
> 
>   The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just the way 
> we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing go wrong and 
> Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing. Fact is, human 
> error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no escaping that.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>> I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
>> Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
>> becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
>> don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
>> Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
>> either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
>> just want the facts.
>> Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
>> Chris.
>> 
>>- Original Message -
>>*From:* Jamie Pauls 
>>*To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>
>>*Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
>>*Subject:* Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
>> 
>>To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are
>>experiencing. What are a few of the worst bugs, here?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>Take care and have a great day.
>>Jamie Pauls
>>jamiepa...@gmail.com 
>> 
>>>On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu
>>>mailto:listse...@me.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com
>>>.  You can also, if you have
>>>access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file
>>>bugs against the “Accessibility” classification.
>>> 
>>>--
>>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>

Re: Clean Install and Rol Back to Yosemite has ruined computer

[Brian Fischler]

Thanks all, will have to review these steps and how to fully delete the 
partition as I am thinking that is what caused my severe issues. I spoke to a 
fantastic Apple Accessibility guy this morning, really great as we went over 
everything I did and the issue of the weird sound that sounded like the turning 
of a radio dial and landing on a station that is not there was new to them, but 
he was able to hear VO doing it on my computer. Thankfully a Time Machine 
restore back to Sept. 28th fixed everything back to the way my computer was 
before I installed Capitan some time in October. So now things are running good 
on Yosemite. Thanks to all of you who offered advice and helped me out, I 
really do appreciate it, and why even though some times we get a lot of crap on 
this list I still find it very very valuable.
> On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:46 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  wrote:
> 
> You were quite close really, Brian.  All you failed to do was repartition the 
> internal disk.  Once you’ve done that, you can gallop on with the install.
> 
> See my other message for tips, assuming Yosemite.  In El Capitan the Disk 
> Utility is a somewhat different beast which we shall ignore for the time 
> being.  But get into the installer again to start with.
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Devin Prater]

Well, if you don't want to read it, you can just delete it.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 12:33 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
>  wrote:
> 
> I was thinking the same thing.
> 
> Chris.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "george b" 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 8:56 AM
> Subject: RE: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
> 
> 
> Your correct, but don't you all think after 3 days of this subject line it is 
> time to move on with a new subject??
> J m t
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anders Holmberg
> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 05:52
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
> 
> Hi!
> But we can still complain and say a lot of things about apple here.
> But why not let apple hear from us by writing to them.
> I still won’t stop using my mac but i want it to be better for people with 
> blindness related problems.
> So is accessibil...@apple.com the only way to get in touch with them.
> /A
>> On 16 Oct 2015, at 19:05, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
>> 
>> I do think Apple is more committed to accessibility than Microsoft, but in 
>> the last couple years, Apple's quality control has really suffered, and 
>> that's the real issue, they release products without fully testing them. 
>> Regarding Windows screen readers, there really is no reason to pay for 
>> expensive screen readers anymore. NVDA works very well, and if you have a 
>> recent version of Microsoft Office, you can use Window Eyes for free. To pay 
>> for Jaws now is simply a waste of money.
>> Original message:
>>> Jaws is not the only game in town for windows. There is nvda, which is 
>>> quite respectable these days. The argument that you get a freebie with a 
>>> Mac and Windows screen readers are expensive just doesn't cut it anymore, 
>>> especially with Apple producing but here releases of OS X when they are 
>>> supposed to be "rock solid". I bought my first mac went snow leopard was 
>>> the current version of OS X. It was pretty solid. Since then, there 
>>> certainly have been improvements in  voiceover features. I still believe it 
>>> is clear that Apple has made for more of a commitment to accessibility then 
>>> has Microsoft. After all, the new edge browser is totally inaccessible to 
>>> all but the experimental support with the latest build of NVDA. However, 
>>> Apple is quite open about this commitment, therefore, they have set 
>>> themselves a higher standard. And they are not meeting it with this new 
>>> release. When they release a product with serious voiceover issues, they 
>>> are sending a message that their commitment to accessibility is not quite 
>>> up to the standard of their commitment to those who do not need 
>>> accessibility features. Is that really what they want to do?
>>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
>> 
 The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes 
 with the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small 
 windows lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish there 
 was better Braille sufport on the Mac.
>> 
 Sent from my iPhone
>> 
> On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:
>> 
> They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about 
> the only way we'll get any progress.
>> 
> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hey guy,
>> 
>> Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
>> next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original 
>> novice concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list.
>> 
>> Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
>> posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO 
>> users on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. 
>> Thankfully I will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some 
>> more backups. Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out when 
>> they shit the bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 9 and 
>> El Capitan were going to be focused on Quality Control instead of fancy 
>> new things. Well, how can Apple expect any VO user that they seriously 
>> test VO when safari on a lot of websites is absolutely unusable. It is 
>> great that VO seems to be much snappier but with it constantly crashing 
>> and turning on and off it is unusable, and I am finding the same issue 
>> in chrome on the same websites so it is definitely VO.
>> 
>> Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not read 
>> things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and you 
>> will constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then back 

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

E.T.  I understand where you're coming from with this, but it still doesn't 
answer my question of what the initial problem was that people were 
experiencing with Safari in the first place.


With all due respect, E.T, Is that too much to ask?

Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "E.T." 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


   But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept
that when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look
very appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy
users of iOS devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a
knee jerk reaction to what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We
do not need to feed into this.

   Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect.
Yet how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their
best to help you? My hat is off to those people.

   We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good
time to walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there
fuming.

   A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would
say, "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the
drama out of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a
quick solution. And if you were smart and walked away, you just might
come back to that solution.

   The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just
the way we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing
go wrong and Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing.
Fact is, human error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no
escaping that.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
just want the facts.
Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
Chris.

- Original Message -
*From:* Jamie Pauls 
*To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com

*Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
*Subject:* Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are
experiencing. What are a few of the worst bugs, here?



Take care and have a great day.
Jamie Pauls
jamiepa...@gmail.com 


On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu
mailto:listse...@me.com>> wrote:

You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com
.  You can also, if you have
access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file
bugs against the “Accessibility” classification.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to
macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" gro

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Brian,

Let me just start by first extending my sympathy to you for all the 
frustration which you've had to endure the last couple of days.  Trust me, 
buddy!  I can totally relate.


I do want to commend you though on 1, not giving up.  2, sticking things out 
with the list, as well as with Apple Accessibility.  I'm happy to hear you 
guys got things situated, and that a fix is coming.  More so, this really 
makes me gain respect for Apple that the gentlemen you spoke with was so 
upfront with you in admitting the issues with Voiceover.  That isn't 
heartenning, but it is! heartenning, as at least we know there is someone 
out there who knows, and is on our side with this.  So yeah... please do 
keep us posted on how your downgrade goes.  I, for one, would be very 
interested in hearing your final outcome.


Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Fischler" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


Hi Jamie,

I had serious safari bugs with VO being extremely unstable meaning sites 
that i personally visit a lot fantasy pros and Facebook two that come right 
to mind constantly would cause VO to crash. When I say crash VO would turn 
off as I would hear the click VO makes when you turn it on and then I would 
hear Welcome to VoiceOVer. Additionally on a lot of sites if you were going 
from link to link using your down arrow VO would read one link but not the 
next link. You would have to hit the up arrow then down arrow again and then 
VO would read the next link. Got to be quite frustrating and 
counterproductive. I did enjoy the snappiness and responsiveness of VO in 
mail, but in mail while going through these lists and deleting messages I 
would constantly get error messages that mail could not move the deleted 
item to the trash therefore cluttering up my inbox.


I decided to roll back to Yosemite which was a bloody awful experience as I 
got something I have never seen before on a mac meaning VO was basically 
reading a word then gone for a minute or two then back and same over and 
over. Spoke to Apple Accessibility this morning and the guy was fantastic. 
We went over all of my issues the exact steps I took and the guy even 
admitted that yes, VO users have had some very serious issues in El Capitan 
and that the fix is coming soon. He then got me started on doing a time 
machine restore. I left for a few hours just got back and thankfully 
everything is back to running the way it was on Yosemite. So yes a lot of 
frustration and anger, but not once did I say I was leaving Apple, and I am 
quite thankful to have such a valuable resource as the Apple Accessibility 
phone number and Time Machine.

On Oct 17, 2015, at 3:44 PM, E.T.  wrote:

  But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept that 
when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look very 
appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy users of 
iOS devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a knee jerk 
reaction to what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We do not need 
to feed into this.


  Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect. Yet 
how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their best to 
help you? My hat is off to those people.


  We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good time 
to walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there fuming.


  A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would 
say, "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the 
drama out of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a 
quick solution. And if you were smart and walked away, you just might come 
back to that solution.


  The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just the 
way we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing go 
wrong and Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing. Fact 
is, human error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no 
escaping that.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
just want the facts.
Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
Chris.

   - Original Message -
   *From:* Jamie Pauls 
   *To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
   
   *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:

Re: Clean Install and Rol Back to Yosemite has ruined computer

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Aa, so you're back up and running?  Wonderful news!  I'm so glad we all 
could contribute to helping you.


Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "Brian Fischler" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 4:29 PM
Subject: Re: Clean Install and Rol Back to Yosemite has ruined computer


Thanks all, will have to review these steps and how to fully delete the 
partition as I am thinking that is what caused my severe issues. I spoke to 
a fantastic Apple Accessibility guy this morning, really great as we went 
over everything I did and the issue of the weird sound that sounded like the 
turning of a radio dial and landing on a station that is not there was new 
to them, but he was able to hear VO doing it on my computer. Thankfully a 
Time Machine restore back to Sept. 28th fixed everything back to the way my 
computer was before I installed Capitan some time in October. So now things 
are running good on Yosemite. Thanks to all of you who offered advice and 
helped me out, I really do appreciate it, and why even though some times we 
get a lot of crap on this list I still find it very very valuable.
On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:46 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu  
wrote:


You were quite close really, Brian.  All you failed to do was repartition 
the internal disk.  Once you’ve done that, you can gallop on with the 
install.


See my other message for tips, assuming Yosemite.  In El Capitan the Disk 
Utility is a somewhat different beast which we shall ignore for the time 
being.  But get into the installer again to start with.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Actually, it's quite ok.  I didn't have any issues with the thread itself. 
I just couldn't seem to pinpoint down what the initial problem was that 
sparked the thread in the first place, being it had veered so far from the 
initial topic.  The thread itself didn't bother me or annoy me in the least.


Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "Devin Prater" 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 4:31 PM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


Well, if you don't want to read it, you can just delete it.

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 17, 2015, at 12:33 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland 
 wrote:


I was thinking the same thing.

Chris.

- Original Message - From: "george b" 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 8:56 AM
Subject: RE: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


Your correct, but don't you all think after 3 days of this subject line it 
is time to move on with a new subject??

J m t

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Anders Holmberg

Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 05:52
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

Hi!
But we can still complain and say a lot of things about apple here.
But why not let apple hear from us by writing to them.
I still won’t stop using my mac but i want it to be better for people with 
blindness related problems.

So is accessibil...@apple.com the only way to get in touch with them.
/A

On 16 Oct 2015, at 19:05, Mike Arrigo  wrote:

I do think Apple is more committed to accessibility than Microsoft, but 
in the last couple years, Apple's quality control has really suffered, 
and that's the real issue, they release products without fully testing 
them. Regarding Windows screen readers, there really is no reason to pay 
for expensive screen readers anymore. NVDA works very well, and if you 
have a recent version of Microsoft Office, you can use Window Eyes for 
free. To pay for Jaws now is simply a waste of money.

Original message:
Jaws is not the only game in town for windows. There is nvda, which is 
quite respectable these days. The argument that you get a freebie with a 
Mac and Windows screen readers are expensive just doesn't cut it 
anymore, especially with Apple producing but here releases of OS X when 
they are supposed to be "rock solid". I bought my first mac went snow 
leopard was the current version of OS X. It was pretty solid. Since 
then, there certainly have been improvements in  voiceover features. I 
still believe it is clear that Apple has made for more of a commitment 
to accessibility then has Microsoft. After all, the new edge browser is 
totally inaccessible to all but the experimental support with the latest 
build of NVDA. However, Apple is quite open about this commitment, 
therefore, they have set themselves a higher standard. And they are not 
meeting it with this new release. When they release a product with 
serious voiceover issues, they are sending a message that their 
commitment to accessibility is not quite up to the standard of their 
commitment to those who do not need accessibility features. Is that 
really what they want to do?

Mary




Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  
wrote:


The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes 
with the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small 
windows lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish 
there was better Braille sufport on the Mac.



Sent from my iPhone



On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:


They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's 
about the only way we'll get any progress.



Sent from my iPhone


On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  
wrote:



Hey guy,


Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to 
the next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a 
original novice concept that has never ever been pointed out on this 
list.


Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO 
users on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. 
Thankfully I will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some 
more backups. Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out 
when they shit the bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 
9 and El Capitan were going to be focused on Quality Control instead 
of fancy new things. Well, how can Apple expect any VO user that they 
seriously test VO when safari on a lot of websites is absolutely 
unusable. It is great that VO seems to be much snappier but with it 
constantly crashing and turning on and off it is unusable, and I am 
finding the same issue in chrome on the same websites so it is 
definitely VO.


Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not 
read things. For example go through your contact list 

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Eric Oyen]

well,
I am not on the latest OS X (with safari). my machine isn't new enough. What I 
have noticed of late is that websites are starting to use scripting that is 
really non-standard. this can cause a myriad of issues in safari, like 
invisible fields, land marks that get skipped, buttons that won't activate or 
edit fields that won't edit.

I saw this kind of behavior on the mac insider site (and I go there fairly 
often. sometime in the last month, they changed something and now I get browser 
hangs, lagged response or sometimes even a crash. THats on my OS X lion system.

So, some of this may be the websites themselves while the rest can be a bug or 
2.

if you want product improvements, you need to report the bugs. make that lots 
of reports. The more bug reports, the higher up the priority tree that bug 
starts to go. I am doing this with Facebook right now as their client sometimes 
reads comments on group postings and at other times, makes them invisible to 
voiceover. I might just take a video and post it to youtube and point the 
Facebook devs at that. I am sure they would appreciate it (so much so they 
might take a DMCA action to have the content removed).

report, report and more report. provide details and pictures.

-eric

On Oct 17, 2015, at 3:20 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

> E.T.  I understand where you're coming from with this, but it still doesn't 
> answer my question of what the initial problem was that people were 
> experiencing with Safari in the first place.
> 
> With all due respect, E.T, Is that too much to ask?
> 
> Chris.
> 
> - Original Message - From: "E.T." 
> To: 
> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:44 PM
> Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
> 
> 
>   But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept
> that when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look
> very appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy
> users of iOS devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a
> knee jerk reaction to what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We
> do not need to feed into this.
> 
>   Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect.
> Yet how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their
> best to help you? My hat is off to those people.
> 
>   We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good
> time to walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there
> fuming.
> 
>   A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would
> say, "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the
> drama out of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a
> quick solution. And if you were smart and walked away, you just might
> come back to that solution.
> 
>   The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just
> the way we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing
> go wrong and Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing.
> Fact is, human error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no
> escaping that.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>> I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
>> Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
>> becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
>> don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
>> Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
>> either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
>> just want the facts.
>> Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
>> Chris.
>> 
>>- Original Message -
>>*From:* Jamie Pauls 
>>*To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>
>>*Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
>>*Subject:* Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
>> 
>>To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are
>>experiencing. What are a few of the worst bugs, here?
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>Take care and have a great day.
>>Jamie Pauls
>>jamiepa...@gmail.com 
>> 
>>>On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu
>>>mailto:listse...@me.com>> wrote:
>>> 
>>>You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com
>>>.  You can also, if you have
>>>access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file
>>>bugs against the “Accessibility” classification.
>>> 
>>>--
>>>You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>>Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>>To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>>>send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@google

Re: Startup disk not detected.

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

For various reasons (probably it’s APM-formatted), the disk doesn’t show up in 
System Preferences, but does when you hold down the Option key.  I’m afraid 
you’ll have to do the hold-Option-and-guess trick.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[E.T.]

   Chris. no its not too much to ask if we can strip out the non 
essential verbiage and get to the core issue.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/17/2015 3:20 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

E.T.  I understand where you're coming from with this, but it still
doesn't answer my question of what the initial problem was that people
were experiencing with Safari in the first place.

With all due respect, E.T, Is that too much to ask?

Chris.

- Original Message - From: "E.T." 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept
that when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look
very appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy
users of iOS devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a
knee jerk reaction to what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We
do not need to feed into this.

Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect.
Yet how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their
best to help you? My hat is off to those people.

We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good
time to walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there
fuming.

A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would
say, "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the
drama out of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a
quick solution. And if you were smart and walked away, you just might
come back to that solution.

The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just
the way we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing
go wrong and Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing.
Fact is, human error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no
escaping that.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
just want the facts.
Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
Chris.

- Original Message -
*From:* Jamie Pauls 
*To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com

*Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
*Subject:* Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are
experiencing. What are a few of the worst bugs, here?



Take care and have a great day.
Jamie Pauls
jamiepa...@gmail.com 


On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu
mailto:listse...@me.com>> wrote:

You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com
.  You can also, if you have
access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file
bugs against the “Accessibility” classification.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to
macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to m

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Sadam Ahmed]

If your Mac can run Lion you can install El Cap. 

Yours truly, 

Sadam Ahmed 

Sent from my iPhone 

-- 



> On 18 Oct 2015, at 9:44 AM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
> 
> well,
> I am not on the latest OS X (with safari). my machine isn't new enough. What 
> I have noticed of late is that websites are starting to use scripting that is 
> really non-standard. this can cause a myriad of issues in safari, like 
> invisible fields, land marks that get skipped, buttons that won't activate or 
> edit fields that won't edit.
> 
> I saw this kind of behavior on the mac insider site (and I go there fairly 
> often. sometime in the last month, they changed something and now I get 
> browser hangs, lagged response or sometimes even a crash. THats on my OS X 
> lion system.
> 
> So, some of this may be the websites themselves while the rest can be a bug 
> or 2.
> 
> if you want product improvements, you need to report the bugs. make that lots 
> of reports. The more bug reports, the higher up the priority tree that bug 
> starts to go. I am doing this with Facebook right now as their client 
> sometimes reads comments on group postings and at other times, makes them 
> invisible to voiceover. I might just take a video and post it to youtube and 
> point the Facebook devs at that. I am sure they would appreciate it (so much 
> so they might take a DMCA action to have the content removed).
> 
> report, report and more report. provide details and pictures.
> 
> -eric
> 
>> On Oct 17, 2015, at 3:20 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>> 
>> E.T.  I understand where you're coming from with this, but it still doesn't 
>> answer my question of what the initial problem was that people were 
>> experiencing with Safari in the first place.
>> 
>> With all due respect, E.T, Is that too much to ask?
>> 
>> Chris.
>> 
>> - Original Message - From: "E.T." 
>> To: 
>> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:44 PM
>> Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
>> 
>> 
>>  But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept
>> that when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look
>> very appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy
>> users of iOS devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a
>> knee jerk reaction to what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We
>> do not need to feed into this.
>> 
>>  Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect.
>> Yet how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their
>> best to help you? My hat is off to those people.
>> 
>>  We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good
>> time to walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there
>> fuming.
>> 
>>  A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would
>> say, "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the
>> drama out of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a
>> quick solution. And if you were smart and walked away, you just might
>> come back to that solution.
>> 
>>  The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just
>> the way we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing
>> go wrong and Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing.
>> Fact is, human error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no
>> escaping that.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>>> On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>>> I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
>>> Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
>>> becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
>>> don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
>>> Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
>>> either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
>>> just want the facts.
>>> Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
>>> Chris.
>>> 
>>>   - Original Message -
>>>   *From:* Jamie Pauls 
>>>   *To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>   
>>>   *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
>>>   *Subject:* Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
>>> 
>>>   To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are
>>>   experiencing. What are a few of the worst bugs, here?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   Take care and have a great day.
>>>   Jamie Pauls
>>>   jamiepa...@gmail.com 
>>> 
   On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu
   mailto:listse...@me.com>> wrote:
 
   You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com
   .  You can also, if you have
   access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file
   bugs against the “Accessibi

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Eric Oyen]

ok, I will have to do that. I need a disk to back things up here first though.

-eric

On Oct 17, 2015, at 5:17 PM, Sadam Ahmed wrote:

> If your Mac can run Lion you can install El Cap. 
> 
> Yours truly, 
> 
> Sadam Ahmed 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone 
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
>> On 18 Oct 2015, at 9:44 AM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>> 
>> well,
>> I am not on the latest OS X (with safari). my machine isn't new enough. What 
>> I have noticed of late is that websites are starting to use scripting that 
>> is really non-standard. this can cause a myriad of issues in safari, like 
>> invisible fields, land marks that get skipped, buttons that won't activate 
>> or edit fields that won't edit.
>> 
>> I saw this kind of behavior on the mac insider site (and I go there fairly 
>> often. sometime in the last month, they changed something and now I get 
>> browser hangs, lagged response or sometimes even a crash. THats on my OS X 
>> lion system.
>> 
>> So, some of this may be the websites themselves while the rest can be a bug 
>> or 2.
>> 
>> if you want product improvements, you need to report the bugs. make that 
>> lots of reports. The more bug reports, the higher up the priority tree that 
>> bug starts to go. I am doing this with Facebook right now as their client 
>> sometimes reads comments on group postings and at other times, makes them 
>> invisible to voiceover. I might just take a video and post it to youtube and 
>> point the Facebook devs at that. I am sure they would appreciate it (so much 
>> so they might take a DMCA action to have the content removed).
>> 
>> report, report and more report. provide details and pictures.
>> 
>> -eric
>> 
>>> On Oct 17, 2015, at 3:20 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>>> 
>>> E.T.  I understand where you're coming from with this, but it still doesn't 
>>> answer my question of what the initial problem was that people were 
>>> experiencing with Safari in the first place.
>>> 
>>> With all due respect, E.T, Is that too much to ask?
>>> 
>>> Chris.
>>> 
>>> - Original Message - From: "E.T." 
>>> To: 
>>> Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:44 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept
>>> that when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look
>>> very appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy
>>> users of iOS devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a
>>> knee jerk reaction to what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We
>>> do not need to feed into this.
>>> 
>>> Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect.
>>> Yet how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their
>>> best to help you? My hat is off to those people.
>>> 
>>> We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good
>>> time to walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there
>>> fuming.
>>> 
>>> A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would
>>> say, "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the
>>> drama out of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a
>>> quick solution. And if you were smart and walked away, you just might
>>> come back to that solution.
>>> 
>>> The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just
>>> the way we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing
>>> go wrong and Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing.
>>> Fact is, human error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no
>>> escaping that.
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
 On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
 I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
 Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
 becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
 don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
 Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
 either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
 just want the facts.
 Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
 Chris.
 
  - Original Message -
  *From:* Jamie Pauls 
  *To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
  
  *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
  *Subject:* Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
 
  To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are
  experiencing. What are a few of the worst bugs, here?
 
 
 
  Take care and have a great day.
  Jamie Pauls
  jamiepa...@gmail.com 
 
>  On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu
>  mailto:listse...@me.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Jamie Pauls]

Hi, Brian

Thank you for the specific examples. I have seen some of the Safari issues you 
mentioned. I don't experience them all the time, though. I'm not convinced that 
the mail issues you bring up our related to the new operating system, though. 
I'm glad you were able to roll back, and I hope that your experiences are good 
once again. Again, thank you for the response.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Oct 17, 2015, at 3:23 PM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
> 
> Hi Jamie,
> 
> I had serious safari bugs with VO being extremely unstable meaning sites that 
> i personally visit a lot fantasy pros and Facebook two that come right to 
> mind constantly would cause VO to crash. When I say crash VO would turn off 
> as I would hear the click VO makes when you turn it on and then I would hear 
> Welcome to VoiceOVer. Additionally on a lot of sites if you were going from 
> link to link using your down arrow VO would read one link but not the next 
> link. You would have to hit the up arrow then down arrow again and then VO 
> would read the next link. Got to be quite frustrating and counterproductive. 
> I did enjoy the snappiness and responsiveness of VO in mail, but in mail 
> while going through these lists and deleting messages I would constantly get 
> error messages that mail could not move the deleted item to the trash 
> therefore cluttering up my inbox. 
> 
> I decided to roll back to Yosemite which was a bloody awful experience as I 
> got something I have never seen before on a mac meaning VO was basically 
> reading a word then gone for a minute or two then back and same over and 
> over. Spoke to Apple Accessibility this morning and the guy was fantastic. We 
> went over all of my issues the exact steps I took and the guy even admitted 
> that yes, VO users have had some very serious issues in El Capitan and that 
> the fix is coming soon. He then got me started on doing a time machine 
> restore. I left for a few hours just got back and thankfully everything is 
> back to running the way it was on Yosemite. So yes a lot of frustration and 
> anger, but not once did I say I was leaving Apple, and I am quite thankful to 
> have such a valuable resource as the Apple Accessibility phone number and 
> Time Machine.
>> On Oct 17, 2015, at 3:44 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept that 
>> when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look very 
>> appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy users of iOS 
>> devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a knee jerk reaction 
>> to what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We do not need to feed into 
>> this.
>> 
>>  Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect. Yet 
>> how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their best to 
>> help you? My hat is off to those people.
>> 
>>  We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good time to 
>> walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there fuming.
>> 
>>  A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would say, 
>> "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the drama 
>> out of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a quick 
>> solution. And if you were smart and walked away, you just might come back to 
>> that solution.
>> 
>>  The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just the way 
>> we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing go wrong 
>> and Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing. Fact is, 
>> human error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no escaping that.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>>> On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:
>>> I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
>>> Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
>>> becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
>>> don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
>>> Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
>>> either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
>>> just want the facts.
>>> Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
>>> Chris.
>>> 
>>>   - Original Message -
>>>   *From:* Jamie Pauls 
>>>   *To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>>   
>>>   *Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
>>>   *Subject:* Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?
>>> 
>>>   To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are
>>>   experiencing. What are a few of the worst bugs, here?
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>   Take care and have a great day.
>>>   Jamie Pauls
>>>   jamiepa...@gmail.com 
>>> 

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

OK then.  Next time you have a concern like this though with me, how about 
taking it up with me off list instead of publicly?  that goes for all of 
you!


Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "E.T." 

To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


   Chris. no its not too much to ask if we can strip out the non
essential verbiage and get to the core issue.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/17/2015 3:20 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

E.T.  I understand where you're coming from with this, but it still
doesn't answer my question of what the initial problem was that people
were experiencing with Safari in the first place.

With all due respect, E.T, Is that too much to ask?

Chris.

- Original Message - From: "E.T." 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept
that when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look
very appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy
users of iOS devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a
knee jerk reaction to what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We
do not need to feed into this.

Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect.
Yet how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their
best to help you? My hat is off to those people.

We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good
time to walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there
fuming.

A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would
say, "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the
drama out of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a
quick solution. And if you were smart and walked away, you just might
come back to that solution.

The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just
the way we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing
go wrong and Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing.
Fact is, human error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no
escaping that.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
just want the facts.
Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
Chris.

- Original Message -
*From:* Jamie Pauls 
*To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com

*Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
*Subject:* Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are
experiencing. What are a few of the worst bugs, here?



Take care and have a great day.
Jamie Pauls
jamiepa...@gmail.com 


On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu
mailto:listse...@me.com>> wrote:

You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com
.  You can also, if you have
access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file
bugs against the “Accessibility” classification.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to
macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--
You received 

Audio HighJack 3 on El Capitan.

['Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries]

Hi All.
Is there some serious issue with AudioHighJack 3 on El capitan or I don’t know 
how to move among items within the grid list?
Thanks for help.
Gabriel
—
Namasté!
Sent from my iMac27. (Libero)

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Audio HighJack 3 on El Capitan.

[Alex Hall]

For what it's worth, I have no problems with it.
> On Oct 17, 2015, at 21:44, 'Gabriele Battaglia' via MacVisionaries 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi All.
> Is there some serious issue with AudioHighJack 3 on El capitan or I don’t 
> know how to move among items within the grid list?
> Thanks for help.
> Gabriel
> —
> Namasté!
> Sent from my iMac27. (Libero)
> 
> 
> -- 
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com 
> .
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> .
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries 
> .
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout 
> .


--
Have a great day,
Alex Hall
mehg...@icloud.com

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[E.T.]

   Sorry Chris but no. What's good for the goose is good for the 
gander. I think you understand this.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/17/2015 6:29 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

OK then.  Next time you have a concern like this though with me, how
about taking it up with me off list instead of publicly?  that goes for
all of you!

Chris.

- Original Message - From: "E.T." 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 7:18 PM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


Chris. no its not too much to ask if we can strip out the non
essential verbiage and get to the core issue.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/17/2015 3:20 PM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

E.T.  I understand where you're coming from with this, but it still
doesn't answer my question of what the initial problem was that people
were experiencing with Safari in the first place.

With all due respect, E.T, Is that too much to ask?

Chris.

- Original Message - From: "E.T." 
To: 
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


But it IS opinions regardless who says what. Its not a new concept
that when someone has trouble with say, OS X, that makes Windows look
very appealing. Or the opposite. How many times have we seen unhappy
users of iOS devices state they will go with some other brand? Its a
knee jerk reaction to what seems to be insurmountable frustrations. We
do not need to feed into this.

Chris, you are right up there with the best of them in this respect.
Yet how some people on this list overlook *your* drama and try their
best to help you? My hat is off to those people.

We all have our moments of insurmountable frustration. Its a good
time to walk away, get some fresh air or coffee, anything but sit there
fuming.

A good strategy would be akin to a well known TV detective hwo would
say, "Just the facts, ma'am". In other works, state the issue, leave the
drama out of it, get to the point and pray that someone will provide a
quick solution. And if you were smart and walked away, you just might
come back to that solution.

The indisputable truth of it is that nothing will ever be 100% just
the way we want it. When Apple works. Apple is peachy. But let one thing
go wrong and Apple is the scum of the earth. That accomplishes nothing.
Fact is, human error will *always* be part of the equation. There is no
escaping that.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 10/17/2015 11:36 AM, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote:

I'm not meaning this to be disrespectful, but I agree totally with
Jamie.  In all this drama about how the mac is worse, and how Windows is
becoming more appealing, we've lost the main topic. It's so bad now, I
don't even know what exactly the initial bugs are.
Can someone give a refresher, without that is, being all slammy toward
either Windows, or toward Apple?  Leave your opinions out.  For now, I
just want the facts.
Again, I definitely mean this with all due respect.
Chris.

- Original Message -
*From:* Jamie Pauls 
*To:* macvisionaries@googlegroups.com

*Sent:* Saturday, October 17, 2015 1:27 PM
*Subject:* Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

To be honest, I’ve not seen the horrible Safari issues some are
experiencing. What are a few of the worst bugs, here?



Take care and have a great day.
Jamie Pauls
jamiepa...@gmail.com 


On Oct 17, 2015, at 11:28 AM, Sabahattin Gucukoglu
mailto:listse...@me.com>> wrote:

You can report bugs to accessibil...@apple.com
.  You can also, if you have
access to the Apple Bug Reporter, Radar, use that system to file
bugs against the “Accessibility” classification.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
.
To post to this group, send email to
macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com

Re: Mail sounds gone in El Capitan

[Craig Werner]

Hello, Anne.

A day or two after the public release of El Capitan, another user and
I posted either on MacVisionaries or Peel-the-Apple that our incoming
mail sound disappeared after the upgrade from Yosemite to El Capitan.
In fact, I believe any sounds associated with the Mac Mail app
disappeared, in my case, at least.  I made sure that sound effects
were still enabled, and I ran through all the different incoming mail
sounds.  No joy.  I also created a Test account with the same
disappointing results.  Then, I enabled mail sounds not just for the
inbox but for all my mailboxes.  When these attempts failed, an Apple
Accessibility rep suggested the radical solution of erasing the hard
drive and rolling back to Yosemite 10.10.5.  This solved the problem.
I know this was a drastic step to take, especially because it
prevented further specific testing.  However, since Safari was quite
flaky on my MacBook Air, and since I had reservations, as a new user,
in upgrading so soon after El Capitan was released, I figured the
safest path was to restore my machine to its Day One state, so to
speak.

BTW, there is evidence on the net for others having this problem.  I
read a thread which had a number of contributors, none of whom said
they were VoiceOver users.  One poster said he finally got an
admission from an Apple rep that this sound issue was a bug.  However,
two Apple Accessibility reps I spoke to said they had not heard of the
problem and assured me it was not on their list of emerging issues.

Craig


On 10/17/15, Anne Robertson  wrote:
> Hello everyone,
>
> I installed El Capitan today and my only problem is that my Mail sounds are
> all gone. Not just my custom sounds, but the built-in Mail sounds too.
> I’ve done the new First Aid thing in Disk Utility. I’ve booted into Safe
> Mode. I’ve reset the SMC. Anyone got any other ideas?
> It’s not critical, I just like to know which mailboxes to look in.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anne
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

The two big ones that I think constitute annoying but non-critical blockers are 
the broken editing of text in edit fields on Safari and the continued 
non-responsiveness while moving around Mail, either in tables in the classic 
view or in mail message content.  If efficiency is important to you, stay on 
Yosemite for a bit longer.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

I need a little clarification.  Am I understanding correctly that you're 
stating that within a text area in Safari, one cannot properly edit text 
which they have previously entered?  OK, that's a dealbreaker for me, if so.


Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "Sabahattin Gucukoglu" 

To: "'Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries" 
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 12:25 AM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


The two big ones that I think constitute annoying but non-critical blockers 
are the broken editing of text in edit fields on Safari and the continued 
non-responsiveness while moving around Mail, either in tables in the classic 
view or in mail message content.  If efficiency is important to you, stay on 
Yosemite for a bit longer.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Well, let’s just say that I’ve opened TextEdit more than once now to do it, 
copying and pasting into Safari, just to avoid the pain of typing in Safari 
directly.  Whether the text is repeated over and over from start with every 
character or simply not announced at all, the caret doesn’t follow the VO 
cursor properly, or cursor navigation is either silent or unreliable, it’s a 
bloody nuisance.

And yes, clean install.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Christopher-Mark Gilland]

Wow.  OK.  Looks like I'll be downgrading then.  I do enough online web work 
with typing into text fields that I cannot have this.  Like I said, I've not 
really had much chance the last few weeks to play much with the system, due 
to work project deadlines, but now that I know about this, I'll definitely 
be rolling back.  that's a door stopper.


Thank goodness, I have a Superduper backup.

Chris.

- Original Message - 
From: "Sabahattin Gucukoglu" 

To: "'Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries" 
Sent: Sunday, October 18, 2015 12:31 AM
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?


Well, let’s just say that I’ve opened TextEdit more than once now to do it, 
copying and pasting into Safari, just to avoid the pain of typing in Safari 
directly.  Whether the text is repeated over and over from start with every 
character or simply not announced at all, the caret doesn’t follow the VO 
cursor properly, or cursor navigation is either silent or unreliable, it’s a 
bloody nuisance.


And yes, clean install.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. 


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

RE: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Juan Hernandez]

I hope you all are sending this info to accessibil...@apple.com.

This is the only things get worked on when there are demands for it.

Best,

JH
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Sabahattin Gucukoglu
Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2015 9:32 PM
To: 'Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries 
Subject: Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

Well, let’s just say that I’ve opened TextEdit more than once now to do it, 
copying and pasting into Safari, just to avoid the pain of typing in Safari 
directly.  Whether the text is repeated over and over from start with every 
character or simply not announced at all, the caret doesn’t follow the VO 
cursor properly, or cursor navigation is either silent or unreliable, it’s a 
bloody nuisance.

And yes, clean install.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"MacVisionaries" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

Re: Safari on the Mac worse than ever?

[Gerry Cook]

hi all if everyone sends a message to accessibil...@apple.com or get an apple 
care specialist to do a screen shot of your computers they’ll have to take! 
notice as i did for app store not opening properly, and finder busy using 
column view if you have a lot of files in a folder, it becomes unusable.  It 
works as it should in list view .  Thanks everyone.
cheers gerry have a nice day
Email: gerryc...@optusnet.com.au
Skype: gerry.cook1 
Twitter: @gerrycook52

> On 17 Oct 2015, at 11:52 PM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> But we can still complain and say a lot of things about apple here.
> But why not let apple hear from us by writing to them.
> I still won’t stop using my mac but i want it to be better for people with 
> blindness related problems.
> So is accessibil...@apple.com the only way to get in touch with them.
> /A
>> On 16 Oct 2015, at 19:05, Mike Arrigo  wrote:
>> 
>> I do think Apple is more committed to accessibility than Microsoft, but in 
>> the last couple years, Apple's quality control has really suffered, and 
>> that's the real issue, they release products without fully testing them. 
>> Regarding Windows screen readers, there really is no reason to pay for 
>> expensive screen readers anymore. NVDA works very well, and if you have a 
>> recent version of Microsoft Office, you can use Window Eyes for free. To pay 
>> for Jaws now is simply a waste of money.
>> Original message:
>>> Jaws is not the only game in town for windows. There is nvda, which is 
>>> quite respectable these days. The argument that you get a freebie with a 
>>> Mac and Windows screen readers are expensive just doesn't cut it anymore, 
>>> especially with Apple producing but here releases of OS X when they are 
>>> supposed to be "rock solid". I bought my first mac went snow leopard was 
>>> the current version of OS X. It was pretty solid. Since then, there 
>>> certainly have been improvements in  voiceover features. I still believe it 
>>> is clear that Apple has made for more of a commitment to accessibility then 
>>> has Microsoft. After all, the new edge browser is totally inaccessible to 
>>> all but the experimental support with the latest build of NVDA. However, 
>>> Apple is quite open about this commitment, therefore, they have set 
>>> themselves a higher standard. And they are not meeting it with this new 
>>> release. When they release a product with serious voiceover issues, they 
>>> are sending a message that their commitment to accessibility is not quite 
>>> up to the standard of their commitment to those who do not need 
>>> accessibility features. Is that really what they want to do?
>>> Mary
>> 
>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
 On Oct 16, 2015, at 9:18 AM, Kawal Gucukoglu  wrote:
>> 
 The only problem is that Jaws costs a lot of money and Voice Over comes 
 with the Mac and has no ILM life. I have thought about getting a small 
 windows lap top but haven't done anything about it as yet. I do wish there 
 was better Braille sufport on the Mac.
>> 
 Sent from my iPhone
>> 
> On 16 Oct 2015, at 4:46 p.m., Devin Prater  wrote:
>> 
> They should really hire a blind software engineer. I think that's about 
> the only way we'll get any progress.
>> 
> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Oct 16, 2015, at 2:20 AM, Brian Fischler  wrote:
>> 
>> Hey guy,
>> 
>> Thanks so much for pointing out this is why it is great to wait to the 
>> next version of an operating system comes out. Wow, what a original 
>> novice concept that has never ever been pointed out on this list.
>> 
>> Ok, now that that is out of the way. I want to thank everyone who has 
>> posted about their issues with safari in El Capitan the IOS 8 for VO 
>> users on the mac. Holy cow, Apple what a crap operating system. 
>> Thankfully I will be rolling back this weekend. Just need to do some 
>> more backups. Seriously, I love Apple, but you got to call them out when 
>> they shit the bed and El Capitan is just that. Apple claimed IOS 9 and 
>> El Capitan were going to be focused on Quality Control instead of fancy 
>> new things. Well, how can Apple expect any VO user that they seriously 
>> test VO when safari on a lot of websites is absolutely unusable. It is 
>> great that VO seems to be much snappier but with it constantly crashing 
>> and turning on and off it is unusable, and I am finding the same issue 
>> in chrome on the same websites so it is definitely VO.
>> 
>> Another issue which I have not seen posted is how VO just does not read 
>> things. For example go through your contact list in contacts and you 
>> will constantly have to go back up to a previous contact and then back 
>> down again to get VO to read it. These two issues alone are so severe 
>> that Apple should fire anyone doing Quality Control for VO or they just 
>> do not care about the quality of it. Very disappointed in Apple again.
>