Re: [Koha-devel] Vote NOW for the Koha Community Website Theme

[Paul POULAIN]

Darci Hanning a écrit :
> Dear Koha Community,
> 
> You may now vote for the Koha Community Website Theme here:
> 
> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=cXmKffvDeO7c48PVcFB4BA_3d_3d 

I really have a problem... after looking at the 3 proposal once again, 
my opinion is that I definetly don't like any of them, and prefer, from 
far, the actual design.

Isn't there a way to implement the current design in Plone ?


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Re: [Koha-devel] Vote NOW for the Koha Community Website Theme

[Jerry Van Baren]

Paul POULAIN wrote:
> Darci Hanning a écrit :
>> Dear Koha Community,
>>
>> You may now vote for the Koha Community Website Theme here:
>>
>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=cXmKffvDeO7c48PVcFB4BA_3d_3d 
> 
> I really have a problem... after looking at the 3 proposal once again, 
> my opinion is that I definetly don't like any of them, and prefer, from 
> far, the actual design.
> 
> Isn't there a way to implement the current design in Plone ?

Version #1 looks quite similar to koha.org to me (and I prefer it, but 
I'm not known for my aesthetic tastes).

Plone is CSS based, so many things can be done to it visually without 
modifying the internals.  Having said that, the further you stray from 
the standard Plone CSS, the more work it is to stay on the upgrade 
train.  Note that the Plone CSS is huge[1].  On the other hand, it looks 
good (to me ;-) and Just Works[tm] and works well, even on IE and on 
smaller displays.  (My related complaint with Plone is that it is slower 
than I would like, but not intolerably slow... it has not exceeded my 
technical inertia, so I have not done anything special to speed it up.)

The "standard" Plone is based on a header and three columns.  The left 
and right columns are extra information and the center (bigger) column 
is the primary content of the page.  The contents of the left and right 
columns are "portlets" that can be enabled, disabled, positioned, etc. 
easily.  This means either or both columns can be easily suppressed. 
What I'm looking at at koha.org (I presume that is the site Paul is 
referring to) is based on a header, left column, and main column.  That 
fits in the Plone scheme quite easily.

Disclaimer: I sysadmin a Plone site (several sites, actually, but they 
are all related and running on one Plone instance), but I have not done 
any rewriting of the Plone CSS - reference my self-evaluation of my 
aesthetic tastes.

Best regards,
gvb

[1] Summary of a nearly stock out of the box Plone 2.5 instance:


Analysis and Recommendations

 * TOTAL_HTML - Congratulations, the total number of HTML files on 
this page (including the main HTML file) is 1 which most browsers can 
multithread. Minimizing HTTP requests is key for web site optimization.
 * TOTAL_OBJECTS - Warning! The total number of objects on this page 
is 72 - consider reducing this to a more reasonable number. Combine, 
refine, and optimize your external objects. Replace graphic rollovers 
with CSS rollovers to speed display and minimize HTTP requests.
 * TOTAL_IMAGES - Warning! The total number of images on this page 
is 67 , consider reducing this to a more reasonable number. Combine, 
refine, and optimize your graphics. Replace graphic rollovers with CSS 
rollovers to speed display and minimize HTTP requests.
 * TOTAL_CSS - Caution. The total number of external CSS files on 
this page is 3 , consider reducing this to a more reasonable number. 
Combine, refine, and optimize your external CSS files. Ideally you 
should have one (or even embed CSS for high-traffic pages) on your pages.
 * TOTAL_SIZE - Warning! The total size of this page is 22 
bytes, which will load in 60.02 seconds on a 56Kbps modem. Consider 
reducing total page size to less than 30K to achieve sub eight second 
response times on 56K connections. Pages over 100K exceed most attention 
thresholds at 56Kbps, even with feedback. Consider contacting us about 
our optimization services.
 * TOTAL_SCRIPT - Congratulations, the total number of external 
script files on this page is 1 . External scripts are less reliably 
cached than CSS files so consider combining scripts into one, or even 
embedding them into high-traffic pages.
 * HTML_SIZE - Caution. The total size of this HTML file is 22815 
bytes, which is above 20K but below 100K. With a 10K ad and a logo this 
means that your page will load in over 8.6 seconds. Consider optimizing 
your HTML and eliminating unnecessary features. To give your users 
feedback, consider layering your page or using positioning to display 
useful content within the first two seconds.
 * IMAGES_SIZE - Warning! The total size of your images is 63042 
bytes, which is over 30K. Consider optimizing your images for size, 
combining them, and replacing graphic rollovers with CSS.
 * SCRIPT_SIZE - Warning! The total size of external your scripts is 
66818 bytes, which is over 8K. Consider optimizing your scripts for 
size, combining them, and using compression where appropriate for any 
scripts placed in the HEAD of your documents.
 * CSS_SIZE - Warning! The total size of your external CSS is 76213 
bytes, which is over 8K. Consider optimizing your CSS for size by 
eliminating whitespace, using shorthand notation, and combining multiple 
CSS files where appropriate.
 * MULTIM_SIZE - Congratulations, the total size of all your 
external multimedia files is 0 bytes, which is less than 4K.

-

Re: [Koha-devel] Vote NOW for the Koha Community Website Theme

[Jerry Van Baren]

Jerry Van Baren wrote:
> Paul POULAIN wrote:
>> Darci Hanning a écrit :
>>> Dear Koha Community,
>>>
>>> You may now vote for the Koha Community Website Theme here:
>>>
>>> http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.aspx?sm=cXmKffvDeO7c48PVcFB4BA_3d_3d 
>> I really have a problem... after looking at the 3 proposal once again, 
>> my opinion is that I definetly don't like any of them, and prefer, from 
>> far, the actual design.
>>
>> Isn't there a way to implement the current design in Plone ?
> 
> Version #1 looks quite similar to koha.org to me (and I prefer it, but 
> I'm not known for my aesthetic tastes).

P.S. I dislike sites with fixed widths because fixed widths means 
suboptimal displays on large terminals and annoy and often unreadable 
displays on small terminals.  Koha.org and "site 1" suffer from from 
this (rescale the width of your browser and watch the text not flow). 
Site 2 and Site 3 do *not* suffer from this (the text and the menu tabs 
flow properly).

The fixed size/resizing issue is a CSS definition / layout methodology 
issue, not a Plone issue.

Best regards,
gvb
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[Koha-devel] Authorities searching (3 things)

[Paul POULAIN]

Hello,

3 questions/problems/suggestions :

=== 1 ===
Previously, one could search on authorities :
- on the $a of the heading. Useful to find "Mister John" by not having 
all firstname "john"
- on the heading itself
- anywhere in the authority

Those 3 possibilities are still in the staff client, but ... the 
underlying code treat $a as "Heading", and the result is the same as for 
heading.

I don't know in MARC21, but in UNIMARC, the possibility was very 
important and interesting.
I volunteer to reintroduce it, but I must know if it has been removed by 
mistake, or if there is something specific to MARC21.

=== 2 ===
Ordering authorities. Actually, the order is done on heading $a.
That's not enough : when you search the author "Martin" (our french 
"Doe"), you get zillions results, unordered on the firstname.
So we need to introduce a 2nd level of ordering. In UNIMARC, usually on 
the $b of the heading.

=== 3 
the authority-search.inc : there are 3 tabs, to search on heading ($a), 
heading, anywhere.
libraries prefer the previous interface, that displayed the 3 lines, to 
show that you can search :
heading ($a) : ___
Heading  : ___
Anywhere : ___
and you can search the 3 simultaneously.
for example : heading ($a) : john, heading : Owen will find only surname 
john and firstname owen.
the new behaviour is not clear enough for the users imo.

how could we reintroduce the clear choice of the 3 input fields 
available at the same time ?



Your opinion welcomed.
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Re: [Koha-devel] Vote NOW for the Koha Community Website Theme

[Paul POULAIN]

Jerry Van Baren a écrit :
> P.S. I dislike sites with fixed widths because fixed widths means 
> suboptimal displays on large terminals and annoy and often unreadable 
> displays on small terminals.  Koha.org and "site 1" suffer from from 
> this (rescale the width of your browser and watch the text not flow). 
> Site 2 and Site 3 do *not* suffer from this (the text and the menu tabs 
> flow properly).
> 
> The fixed size/resizing issue is a CSS definition / layout methodology 
> issue, not a Plone issue.

You're right.
But just 2 notes :
- the size is OK in 800x600, so I think the small terminal question is 
not a problem
- this problem is mostly a geek problem. We want to attract users, and 
librarians, afaik, don't care at all of those kind of problems.

Note also that I understand the interest of Plone. But I think at this 
moment, that the design (colors, round squares, blue/white/green...) are 
better than the 3 proposals. So I wonder if we could not keep the design 
AND switch to plone.


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Re: [Koha-devel] Vote NOW for the Koha Community Website Theme

[MJ Ray]

Paul POULAIN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But just 2 notes :
> - the size is OK in 800x600, so I think the small terminal question is 
> not a problem
> - this problem is mostly a geek problem. We want to attract users, and 
> librarians, afaik, don't care at all of those kind of problems.

- The size is not OK in 512-width (half-screen, for seeing all of two
web browsers side-by-side) so I think the small terminal question is a
problem.  And my mobile browser is 192-wide IIRC and mobiles are
becoming more common...

- From what I've seen, librarians are *less* likely to run a browser
full-width.  They seem to appreciate paper-like ratios, for some
reason ;-) which is where I got the habit of paper-shaped windows
from, I think.  Could just be the librarians I've met, though.

Best wishes,
-- 
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Re: [Koha-devel] Vote NOW for the Koha Community Website Theme

[MJ Ray]

"Joshua Ferraro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 14, 2008 at 4:27 AM, MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Please
> >  move the vote to a site which everyone can use.  Can't Plone run open
> >  votes?  Could we score the templates from their own demo pages?
> Are you volunteering to set up a plone site that has a voting product 
> installed,
> because none of us have time :-).

I dislike Plone (or rather, I dislike Zope), have previously decided
against using it and have migrated sites at work away from it, so I
don't have a server running it now.  Give me the necessary access to
the plone server(s) used and I'll install and configure a voting
product on it.

> >  The ballot looks very strange.  What method is being used for this
> >  vote?  What happens if there's not a clear winner?  I daren't vote
> >  because I don't understand how my vote will be used.
> This is the first time we've done an official Koha community vote for 
> anything,
> so we're all just learning here. What do you suggest we do if there
> isn't a clear winner?

This isn't the first time we've held a vote.  The most recent one was
March 2007, asking how soon people wanted 3.0.  The result was 1 vote
for quick-bugfix-and-release, 9 votes for within-3-months, and 7 votes
for when-it's-ready.  I think I remember some votes before that.  Were
none official?

As to what happens if we don't get a clear winner, I'm reminded of my
dean at university who said that one of the most difficult things was
having scientists go to him, asking for help in salvaging some results
from their badly-designed experiments, and he had to tell them that
the only way of answering their original question was to start again
with a better design.  The experiments could still tell them something
about the question, often enough to get some paper in some obscure
journal, but not the answers they wanted.  So...

If there isn't a clear winner, we should let all three improve their
designs in light of the feedback and then use Single Transferable Vote
to choose between them.

> >  Many of the URLs on the demo sites appear to be different to the live
> >  site.  Are they template problems or a Plone configuration problem which
> >  will be corrected before launch?  http://www.w3.org/Provider/Style/URI
> The way I'd suggest we handle this is with mod_rewrite, so that the old
> pages redirect to the new content.

Can we move the new content to the currect URLs?

> >  Finally, all sites appear to be semi-translated.  Does that cause any
> >  other problems which might influence votes?
> Not sure, what kinds of problems do you anticipate?

I don't know if the bizarre esperan-franglais I see means I'm not
seeing the full effect of the template.

> >  Why was the call-for-votes draft not previewed on koha-devel?  I'm
> >  sure someone could have helped fix these before the vote started.
> Good idea, next time we'll do that.

Next time?  How soon are we replacing the website again?

Why didn't it happen this time?

Puzzled,
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Re: [Koha-devel] Vote NOW for the Koha Community Website Theme

[MJ Ray]

"Joshua Ferraro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]
> Unfortunately, the folks organizing this site, myself included, didn't have
> much time to spend on it, and the benefits of getting it done and out there 
> for
> folks to use necessitate that we do our best to move things along quickly. 
> Some
> people in this community have been waiting for a multi-lingual site
> for literally
> YEARS! Also, our current website update process is pretty non-transparent
>  -- there are a lot of people in our community who would love to contribute
> content but who don't have a way to do that meaningfully.

To update the current website, log in to kea on koha2, pick a file,
edit it in the browser, then click to notify the webmaster (Russel
IIRC) that there's an update waiting.  If you need a login, ask Russel
- or maybe the people at Katipo can set them up too.  Russel's been
pretty helpful to me (including support by mobile phone at least
once!) although a bit slow to approve my latest edit (*nudge*) but I
guess Koha isn't part of his day job now.

I don't understand why the multi-lingual site hasn't happened yet.  I
thought Katipo were fairly familiar with the problems of multilingual
sites, given where Koha came from.  The main problem looks to me like
kea requires Javascript and all that, but many Plone sites seem as bad
for that - or will this be the big improvement which wins me over?

So what does "pretty non-transparent" mean?  Not at LibLime?  To me,
koha2 seems more transparent than this new Plone site's development!

Regards,
-- 
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Re: [Koha-devel] Vote NOW for the Koha Community Website Theme

[Joshua Ferraro]

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:48 PM, MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Joshua Ferraro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]
>
> > Unfortunately, the folks organizing this site, myself included, didn't have
>  > much time to spend on it, and the benefits of getting it done and out 
> there for
>  > folks to use necessitate that we do our best to move things along quickly. 
> Some
>  > people in this community have been waiting for a multi-lingual site
>  > for literally
>  > YEARS! Also, our current website update process is pretty non-transparent
>  >  -- there are a lot of people in our community who would love to contribute
>  > content but who don't have a way to do that meaningfully.
>
>  To update the current website, log in to kea on koha2, pick a file,
>  edit it in the browser, then click to notify the webmaster (Russel
>  IIRC) that there's an update waiting.  If you need a login, ask Russel
>  - or maybe the people at Katipo can set them up too.  Russel's been
>  pretty helpful to me (including support by mobile phone at least
>  once!) although a bit slow to approve my latest edit (*nudge*) but I
>  guess Koha isn't part of his day job now.
>
>  I don't understand why the multi-lingual site hasn't happened yet.  I
>  thought Katipo were fairly familiar with the problems of multilingual
>  sites, given where Koha came from.  The main problem looks to me like
>  kea requires Javascript and all that, but many Plone sites seem as bad
>  for that - or will this be the big improvement which wins me over?
I hope it will be. There are lots more options for adding content to Plone,
and the multi-lingual capabilities are very strong; in particular, the interface
for translation makes it very easy for folks to translate content into
their language.

>  So what does "pretty non-transparent" mean?  Not at LibLime?
Not sure what you're implying here, and whether I should be offended by it :-)

> To me,
>  koha2 seems more transparent than this new Plone site's development!
Ahem ... the process you describe requires that you know someone, or that
you post a list question asking how to add or translate content on the website.
In the new Plone-based model, you just sign up and away you go. For some
content we might want to have it moderated, but in general, I vote that we
keep it as wiki-style as possible.

Transparency of process and making it easy for folks to translate koha are the
two major reasons I'm in favor of Plone.

For what it's worth, I'd like to be able to offer the same level of
transparency for
the translate.koha.org site, so that instead of having to email koha-translate
every time someone wants a new translation to be added, someone could just
sign up, add their language, and away they go. I just haven't had a chance to
work on that under Kartouche, nor have I found any tools that support that kind
of workflow.

Cheers,

-- 
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Re: [Koha-devel] Vote NOW for the Koha Community Website Theme

[Joshua Ferraro]

For what it's worth, 33 folks have voted thusfar.

Josh

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Joshua Ferraro <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 1:48 PM, MJ Ray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>  > "Joshua Ferraro" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: [...]
>  >
>  > > Unfortunately, the folks organizing this site, myself included, didn't 
> have
>  >  > much time to spend on it, and the benefits of getting it done and out 
> there for
>  >  > folks to use necessitate that we do our best to move things along 
> quickly. Some
>  >  > people in this community have been waiting for a multi-lingual site
>  >  > for literally
>  >  > YEARS! Also, our current website update process is pretty 
> non-transparent
>  >  >  -- there are a lot of people in our community who would love to 
> contribute
>  >  > content but who don't have a way to do that meaningfully.
>  >
>  >  To update the current website, log in to kea on koha2, pick a file,
>  >  edit it in the browser, then click to notify the webmaster (Russel
>  >  IIRC) that there's an update waiting.  If you need a login, ask Russel
>  >  - or maybe the people at Katipo can set them up too.  Russel's been
>  >  pretty helpful to me (including support by mobile phone at least
>  >  once!) although a bit slow to approve my latest edit (*nudge*) but I
>  >  guess Koha isn't part of his day job now.
>  >
>  >  I don't understand why the multi-lingual site hasn't happened yet.  I
>  >  thought Katipo were fairly familiar with the problems of multilingual
>  >  sites, given where Koha came from.  The main problem looks to me like
>  >  kea requires Javascript and all that, but many Plone sites seem as bad
>  >  for that - or will this be the big improvement which wins me over?
>  I hope it will be. There are lots more options for adding content to Plone,
>  and the multi-lingual capabilities are very strong; in particular, the 
> interface
>  for translation makes it very easy for folks to translate content into
>  their language.
>
>
>  >  So what does "pretty non-transparent" mean?  Not at LibLime?
>  Not sure what you're implying here, and whether I should be offended by it 
> :-)
>
>
>  > To me,
>  >  koha2 seems more transparent than this new Plone site's development!
>  Ahem ... the process you describe requires that you know someone, or that
>  you post a list question asking how to add or translate content on the 
> website.
>  In the new Plone-based model, you just sign up and away you go. For some
>  content we might want to have it moderated, but in general, I vote that we
>  keep it as wiki-style as possible.
>
>  Transparency of process and making it easy for folks to translate koha are 
> the
>  two major reasons I'm in favor of Plone.
>
>  For what it's worth, I'd like to be able to offer the same level of
>  transparency for
>  the translate.koha.org site, so that instead of having to email 
> koha-translate
>  every time someone wants a new translation to be added, someone could just
>  sign up, add their language, and away they go. I just haven't had a chance to
>  work on that under Kartouche, nor have I found any tools that support that 
> kind
>  of workflow.
>
>
>
>  Cheers,
>
>  --
>  Joshua Ferraro SUPPORT FOR OPEN-SOURCE SOFTWARE
>  CEO migration, training, maintenance, support
>  LibLime Featuring Koha Open-Source ILS
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED] |Full Demos at http://liblime.com/koha |1(888)KohaILS
>



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