Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[franzoni]

On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Renie wrote:

>   I don't know about the other names, but Dima and Nikita are
> Russian male names :) . 

Really? Ok, Dima I just guessed, but Nikita I thought... well, there is a
movie about a Nikita who was definetly female... oh well, never too late
to learn ;-)

Eugenia



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[HJM]

And then there was the Elton John song.  Oh, hmm

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

/On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Renie wrote:
/
/>  I don't know about the other names, but Dima and Nikita are
/> Russian male names :) . 
/
/Really? Ok, Dima I just guessed, but Nikita I thought... well, there is a
/movie about a Nikita who was definetly female... oh well, never too late
/to learn ;-)



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[franzoni]

On Tue, 30 Nov 1999, Ingrid Schupbach wrote:

> You've got some men in here - sorry...

Purged them. Thanks :-)

I also purged all the oriental names, because I could never guess :-)

Here's what remained:

Kernel developers
=
Pat Mackinlay (Australia)
Pauline Middelink (Netherlands)

LDP writers
===
CD Writing HOWTO, by Winfried Trümper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
DOSEMU HOWTO, by Uwe Bonnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Joanna Oja (System Admin Guide)

Debian developers
=

Brentrup, Siggy
Campbell, Sue
Clark, Ashley 
Evans, Carey W.
Kleinmann, Susan G.
Knoll, Timshel
Pennarun, Avery
Rosenblum, Elie


I also asked a friend of mine who's a debian developer to check the list.
Sue Campbell and Susan G. Kleinmann are women, the others are probably all
males. -sigh :-)

Eugenia




[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[Marie Fischer]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Purged them. Thanks :-)
Noy all of them ... Winfried and Uwe are most certainly males, too :(

> Here's what remained:
> 
> LDP writers
> ===
> CD Writing HOWTO, by Winfried Trümper <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> DOSEMU HOWTO, by Uwe Bonnes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Joanna Oja (System Admin Guide)

-- 
marie
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
+37 250 43 040



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[Maureen Lecuona]

I'm sorry, but I don't get the point of this listing of women.  

I think that the evidence is that very few women are engaged in Linux
as either leaders of a commercial Linux entrepise or as developers in the 
open source community.

What we need is not a list of some of the very few examples we can fish
out of the occasional development groups, but rather an effort to bring
female leadership into Open Source development, and into commercial enterprises.

If we want to be included in the press hype, then it is important to be 
ubiquitously involved in the open source movement.  I really don't think that
the occasional contribution is enough.  We need to be represented in the
highly visible business and hacker communities. 

I can think of only one woman who meets that criteria right now, and that is
Esther Dyson.

Just my $.02,

Maureen Lecuona


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Kelly Lynn Martin]

On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:59:57 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

>For what it's worth, those reasons apply to me. I'm /told/ I'm one of
>the best programmers they know, by people who see my code. But I'm
>shyer of my code than of just about anything else.

I have something of the same problem.  People tell me I'm a good
programmer, but I think I suck.  Hard to say who's right...

Kelly


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[Naomi Hospodarsky]

so, who is Esther?


At 11:10 AM 12/1/99 , you wrote:

>I'm sorry, but I don't get the point of this listing of women.
>
>I think that the evidence is that very few women are engaged in Linux
>as either leaders of a commercial Linux entrepise or as developers in the
>open source community.
>
>What we need is not a list of some of the very few examples we can fish
>out of the occasional development groups, but rather an effort to bring
>female leadership into Open Source development, and into commercial 
>enterprises.
>
>If we want to be included in the press hype, then it is important to be
>ubiquitously involved in the open source movement.  I really don't think that
>the occasional contribution is enough.  We need to be represented in the
>highly visible business and hacker communities.
>
>I can think of only one woman who meets that criteria right now, and that is
>Esther Dyson.
>
>Just my $.02,
>
>Maureen Lecuona
>
>
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

RE: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[Ian Phillips]

> so, who is Esther?

Esther Dyson is a venture capitalist who mostly invests in tech stock and
emerging market companies.

In the UK we've got Eva Pascoe, founder of the Cyberia chain of Cyber-Cafés.

Yours,
Ian.


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org




[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Maureen Lecuona]

Well, would you women feel less uncomfortable if the an open software project 
were started by a woman and included mostly or only women?

There's an awful lot yet to do for linux.  I have been thinking about 
starting such a group for a while (about 2 years), but my time has been
very limited by the demands of my job.  I think this is becoming more manageable
now, and if there's interest and we can come together on some projects, perhaps
we can all move ahead in a supportive, non-judgemental environment that is 
run for and by women interested in doing technical work...

What do you think?

Maureen Lecuona



From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Wed Dec  1 12:22:31 1999
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch) 
Date: Wed, 01 Dec 1999 12:18:38 -0500
From: Kelly Lynn Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

On Tue, 30 Nov 1999 22:59:57 +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:

>For what it's worth, those reasons apply to me. I'm /told/ I'm one of
>the best programmers they know, by people who see my code. But I'm
>shyer of my code than of just about anything else.

I have something of the same problem.  People tell me I'm a good
programmer, but I think I suck.  Hard to say who's right...

Kelly


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org




[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[Deirdre Saoirse]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Really? Ok, Dima I just guessed, but Nikita I thought... well, there is
> a movie about a Nikita who was definetly female... oh well, never too
> late to learn ;-)

It makes sense that if the movie was called "La Femme Nikita" that it
would be *unusual* for Nikita to be a female name. Otherwise, the "La
Femme" would be redundant. :)

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
   My three rules for happy living:  No Windows, No Java, No Perl.
"I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie."
 -- Rick Moen



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Linux Mag: 50 Linux People to Watch

[Laurel Fan]

Excerpts from linuxchix: 30-Nov-99 Re: [issues] Linux Mag: 50 .. by
Maureen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> The problem here is that there are no high-profile open source
> software products developed primarily by women.
> I do not know why this is, but it is a large part of the problem IMHO. 

Why is this a problem?

> PERL, PYTHON, BIND, LINUX, GNOME, and most, if not all, of the GNU
> software is implemented by males.

Hm.  I've written an interpreter. I've written a kernel.  I've
implemented a couple protocols.  I've never tried to write anything like
gnome, since anything I try to do involving graphics ends up
not-as-i-intended (note to self:  256x256 is not a good size for a
button for an E theme, even for a resolution of 1600x1200).  Why do you
not use any of that stuff?  Why do _I_ not use any of that (though I did
use my shell for a while because I thought it was cool to use () instead
of <>.  Turned out it wasn't that cool, and neither were the residual
bugs.(It's nice being on a shell were someone else is root and takes
care of the backups for you. all that cool stuff doesn't cause as much
damage.))?  If you're still with me, nobody uses it because it all
sucks.  This is because I wrote it all by myself.  If I wanted to work
languages/compilers/perl/python, kernels, or
daemons/networking/protocols, I would join th appropriate project.  This
would hopefully be useful, but would not do anything to make things
"developed primarly by women".

> We need to see more women writing free software.  We need to see more
> women opening Linux-based for-profit companies.

Why don't you?



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Deirdre Saoirse]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Maureen Lecuona wrote:

> Well, would you women feel less uncomfortable if the an open software
> project were started by a woman and included mostly or only women?

I wouldn't want a women-only project. I would like a women-led project.

> There's an awful lot yet to do for linux.  I have been thinking about 
> starting such a group for a while (about 2 years), but my time has been
> very limited by the demands of my job.  I think this is becoming more
> manageable now, and if there's interest and we can come together on some
> projects, perhaps we can all move ahead in a supportive, non-judgemental
> environment that is  run for and by women interested in doing technical
> work...

I'd like to see some holes filled. For example:

1) Project management software

2) CASE tools, especially ERD tools

These are not small projects, but there's nothing like that out there.

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
   My three rules for happy living:  No Windows, No Java, No Perl.
"I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie."
 -- Rick Moen



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[srl]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:

> I'd like to see some holes filled. For example:
> 
> 1) Project management software

hear hear. IMO this would be best as a web-based product written in
something like PHP or Zope. (but then again, i'm a web geek, so 
of course i think so. ;) Anyone know of any projects like this that are
currently going on?

srl



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

RE: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[franzoni]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Ian Phillips wrote:

> > so, who is Esther?
> 
> Esther Dyson is a venture capitalist who mostly invests in tech stock and
> emerging market companies.
> 
> In the UK we've got Eva Pascoe, founder of the Cyberia chain of Cyber-Cafés.

mmm are they involved in any way in open source?

E.



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[franzoni]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Maureen Lecuona wrote:

> I think that the evidence is that very few women are engaged in Linux
> as either leaders of a commercial Linux entrepise or as developers in the 
> open source community.

that is clear

> What we need is not a list of some of the very few examples we can fish
> out of the occasional development groups, but rather an effort to bring
> female leadership into Open Source development, and into commercial enterprises.

Ok, but why are all the women not contributing? Contributing is quite
easy, and mostly you don't even have to report to anyone. So why isn't any
woman doing it? Ok, two of the girls here said they don't contribute
because they're shy... so maybe knowing the experience of some woman who
already did it could tempt them to contribute.

> If we want to be included in the press hype, then it is important to be 
> ubiquitously involved in the open source movement.  I really don't think that
> the occasional contribution is enough.  We need to be represented in the
> highly visible business and hacker communities. 

Of course that's true... so we have to contribute ourselves. I am trying
to do my best, but I really don't think I'll ever write a program that can
be useful :-) I'm trying to contribute with documentation, though
(co-authoring a book on linux as a LAN server, which will be released
under an open source license), and coordinating others' efforts (the hell,
I coordinate a LUG in Italy which has more than 200 people, of which only
3 I can count are female - me included:-) ), but that's not enough. 
A thing that we can do is show that it could be done.. and that there are
women who're doing it, and maybe they're also happy :-)

You're right, the list is totally useless, but maybe the people on the
list aren't :-)

E.



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[franzoni]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Maureen Lecuona wrote:

> There's an awful lot yet to do for linux.  I have been thinking about 
> starting such a group for a while (about 2 years), but my time has been
> very limited by the demands of my job.  I think this is becoming more manageable
> now, and if there's interest and we can come together on some projects, perhaps
> we can all move ahead in a supportive, non-judgemental environment that is 
> run for and by women interested in doing technical work...
> 
> What do you think?

if you want to do it, I'm with you :-)

Eugenia



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[franzoni]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:

> > Really? Ok, Dima I just guessed, but Nikita I thought... well, there is
> > a movie about a Nikita who was definetly female... oh well, never too
> > late to learn ;-)
> 
> It makes sense that if the movie was called "La Femme Nikita" that it
> would be *unusual* for Nikita to be a female name. Otherwise, the "La
> Femme" would be redundant. :)

yep, but here it's just called "Nikita" (never looked at the original
title :-)

E.



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[franzoni]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:

> > Well, would you women feel less uncomfortable if the an open software
> > project were started by a woman and included mostly or only women?
> 
> I wouldn't want a women-only project. I would like a women-led project.

I agree. Excluding males from the project would be... well... sexist :-)

E.



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Robert Kiesling]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> 
> > I'd like to see some holes filled. For example:
> > 
> > 1) Project management software
> 
> hear hear. IMO this would be best as a web-based product written in
> something like PHP or Zope. (but then again, i'm a web geek, so 
> of course i think so. ;) Anyone know of any projects like this that are
> currently going on?

What's Zope?  

I would like software that allows and facilitates collaborative or
simultaneous projects over the net.  CVS kind of does this, at least
in the communication part, letting everyone know that a module is
checked out for editing.

I think the hard part is designing software so that lets people 
use their own organizational styles, rather than imposing one. 

My 2 cents

Robert 



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Deirdre Saoirse]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, srl wrote:

> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> 
> > I'd like to see some holes filled. For example:
> > 
> > 1) Project management software
> 
> hear hear. IMO this would be best as a web-based product written in
> something like PHP or Zope. (but then again, i'm a web geek, so 
> of course i think so. ;) Anyone know of any projects like this that are
> currently going on?

I think it should have an optional DISPLAY in some web cgi, but it should
NOT be run from there.

I'm thinking a Gtk+ app largely written in Python.

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
   My three rules for happy living:  No Windows, No Java, No Perl.
"I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie."
 -- Rick Moen



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Deirdre Saoirse]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Robert Kiesling wrote:

> What's Zope?  

www.zope.org

(web applications engine written in python)

> I would like software that allows and facilitates collaborative or
> simultaneous projects over the net.  CVS kind of does this, at least
> in the communication part, letting everyone know that a module is
> checked out for editing.

That's not the kind of project management I meant. I meant resource and
time scheduling, critical path, pert and gantt charts and all that
rot. There's NOTHING in open source. Some of the math is hairy but that
doesn't have to be a part of the initial release (resource levelling is an
n-dimensional problem depending on the criteria established).

> I think the hard part is designing software so that lets people 
> use their own organizational styles, rather than imposing one. 

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
   My three rules for happy living:  No Windows, No Java, No Perl.
"I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie."
 -- Rick Moen



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Laurel Fan]

Excerpts from linuxchix: 1-Dec-99 Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (.. by
Maureen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> I think this is becoming more manageable now, and if there's
> interest and we can come together on some projects, perhaps
> we can all move ahead in a supportive, non-judgemental environment
> that is run for and by women interested in doing technical work...
>  
> What do you think?

I think that when choosing a project to spend my free time on, I am far
more concerned about the content and philosophy than the demographic
credentials of those running it.   If you want to work on something that
I have no interest in, then I am obviously not going to participate.

I do free software development to have fun, create something I want or
need, experiment with interesting concepts and techniques, to work with
other like-minded people, and to learn new things.  I do not do free
software development to get in on the hype, promote the image of women
and open source, to make "Linux" better, or to "do technical work".

Sounds interesting, but I won't work on something I don't enjoy
(actually, that's not quite true.  I will work on something I don't
enjoy if the time and non-enjoyment is sufficiently compensated such as
with money or grades..)

Also, the words "supportive" and "non-judgemental" sort of scare me. 
What if I have some really bad ideas?  Does everyone have to support
them?



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[Laurel Fan]

Excerpts from linuxchix: 1-Dec-99 Re: [issues] linux women - .. by
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Ok, but why are all the women not contributing?

Many are.  It's just that like thousands of men and women, they aren't
high profile, so you don't know of them.




[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Robert Kiesling]

Deirdre Saoirse writes:

> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Robert Kiesling wrote:
> 
> > What's Zope?  
> 
> www.zope.org
> 

Looks `way cool, but I'm not yet sold on python.  What does Python
offer that Smalltalk doesn't (that's the only other widely known
object oriented environment I can think of).

What interface metaphor would this present to users?  Would it 
be like a calendar, or would  something like a supermarket (or 
flea market :) be more appropriate?

I think it's a really great idea... but the state of the art 
is probably so vertically oriented that it would be difficult 
to get enough people involved so you would have decent 
participation 


Robert 




[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

[OT] Porject-y software (Was: Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch))

[Laurel Fan]

Excerpts from linuxchix: 1-Dec-99 Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (.. by
Robert Kiesling@localhos 
> I would like software that allows and facilitates collaborative or
> simultaneous projects over the net.  CVS kind of does this, at least
> in the communication part, letting everyone know that a module is
> checked out for editing.

Worldforge's[1] infrastructure group has been checking out stuff to use
to manage our project.  Currently we use cvs, irc, mailing lists, and
wiki. We've looked at: sourceforge (www.sourceforge.net), which is nice,
but we already have our own servers, this bizarre "power steering" thing
(www.psteering.com) which was way too corporate and buzzwordy (as well
as javascript-y for us).


[1] Worldforge is the project I'm working on. Our web site is a
www.worldforge.org. *plug* 


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Maureen Lecuona]

Laurel:



Laurel Fan wrote:
> 
> Excerpts from linuxchix: 1-Dec-99 Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (.. by
> Maureen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > I think this is becoming more manageable now, and if there's
> > interest and we can come together on some projects, perhaps
> > we can all move ahead in a supportive, non-judgemental environment
> > that is run for and by women interested in doing technical work...
> >
> > What do you think?
> 
> I think that when choosing a project to spend my free time on, I am far
> more concerned about the content and philosophy than the demographic
> credentials of those running it.   If you want to work on something that
> I have no interest in, then I am obviously not going to participate.

Well, I can read nothing in my missive that says you would have to do so.
"If we can come together on some projects" means exactly that.
> 
> I do free software development to have fun, create something I want or
> need, experiment with interesting concepts and techniques, to work with
> other like-minded people, and to learn new things.  I do not do free
> software development to get in on the hype, promote the image of women
> and open source, to make "Linux" better, or to "do technical work".

That's fine.  But if you read the thread, it all began about a list of 50
people who were big deals in Linux.  The concern was that women were
under-represented.  Well, if anyone wants women on that list, then the game must
be played.  Too bad, but's that's life ITRW.
> 
> Sounds interesting, but I won't work on something I don't enjoy
> (actually, that's not quite true.  I will work on something I don't
> enjoy if the time and non-enjoyment is sufficiently compensated such as
> with money or grades..)
> 
> Also, the words "supportive" and "non-judgemental" sort of scare me.
> What if I have some really bad ideas?  Does everyone have to support
> them?

Any statement can be carried to its logical extreme, neh?  We are all reasonable
people.  It is one thing to criticize work, it is another to 
criticize ad hominem.  This is the distinction I assume is understood.
A cooperative software project requires a certain openness that allows for
constructive criticism, at least in my experience.

You don't have to participate.  No one has asked you specifically to do so.  In
fact, if the demographics bother you, I suggest you don't.  You are obviously
not having any problems participating in predominantly male development groups. 
I don't either, but some women seem to have voiced a certain shyness about their
work which might be helped by demographics.


Maureen Lecuona


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [OT] Porject-y software (Was: Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch))

[Robert Kiesling]

Laurel Fan, <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, writes:
> 
> Excerpts from linuxchix: 1-Dec-99 Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (.. by
> Robert Kiesling@localhos 
> > I would like software that allows and facilitates collaborative or
> > simultaneous projects over the net.  CVS kind of does this, at least
> > in the communication part, letting everyone know that a module is
> > checked out for editing.
> 
> Worldforge's[1] infrastructure group has been checking out stuff to use
> to manage our project.  Currently we use cvs, irc, mailing lists, and
> wiki. We've looked at: sourceforge (www.sourceforge.net), which is nice,
> but we already have our own servers, this bizarre "power steering" thing
> (www.psteering.com) which was way too corporate and buzzwordy (as well
> as javascript-y for us).

I noticed that the server archive is only 51K, so I'm not sure how 
far along you all are with the project.  But the SDL library looks
like exactly what I was looking for.  So I'll check it out!  Thanks!

> [1] Worldforge is the project I'm working on. Our web site is a
> www.worldforge.org. *plug* 

Maybe this discussion should go over to [technical].

Btw, has anyone contacted Jamie herself?  She's had a few messages
on the linux-kernel list recently.  

Another thing... there's also someone (female) who is a contributor on
LKML who's an undergrad here, but I don't know if I should mention her
for privacy reasons.  Any opinions on this?

Thanks,

Robert 




[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Maureen Lecuona]

Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Maureen Lecuona wrote:
> 
> > Well, would you women feel less uncomfortable if the an open software
> > project were started by a woman and included mostly or only women?
> 
> I wouldn't want a women-only project. I would like a women-led project.

I think that a women-led project is achieved only when women predominate the
group.  If you mean woman led, as in one woman, I don't think this is 
easily achievable in an open source venue.

> 
> > There's an awful lot yet to do for linux.  I have been thinking about
> > starting such a group for a while (about 2 years), but my time has been
> > very limited by the demands of my job.  I think this is becoming more
> > manageable now, and if there's interest and we can come together on some
> > projects, perhaps we can all move ahead in a supportive, non-judgemental
> > environment that is  run for and by women interested in doing technical
> > work...
> 
> I'd like to see some holes filled. For example:
> 
> 1) Project management software
> 
> 2) CASE tools, especially ERD tools
> 
> These are not small projects, but there's nothing like that out there.

I agree. There's definitely a hole there.

Maureen Lecuona


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Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Maureen Lecuona]

I don't believe I said men would be excluded.  However, I would not want to see
the project predominated by males as are all the others.

Maureen Lecuona

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> 
> > > Well, would you women feel less uncomfortable if the an open software
> > > project were started by a woman and included mostly or only women?
> >
> > I wouldn't want a women-only project. I would like a women-led project.
> 
> I agree. Excluding males from the project would be... well... sexist :-)
> 
> E.
> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org


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Re: [issues] linux women - the revenge? :-)

[Maureen Lecuona]

Esther Dyson was involved in financing NetBeans, which was freely available,
though a commercial product, for quite a while.

Maureen

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Ian Phillips wrote:
> 
> > > so, who is Esther?
> >
> > Esther Dyson is a venture capitalist who mostly invests in tech stock and
> > emerging market companies.
> >
> > In the UK we've got Eva Pascoe, founder of the Cyberia chain of Cyber-Cafés.
> 
> mmm are they involved in any way in open source?
> 
> E.
> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org


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Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Kelly Lynn Martin]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:51:04 -0800 (PST), Deirdre Saoirse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>I think it should have an optional DISPLAY in some web cgi, but it
>should NOT be run from there.

I _despise_ products that only have a "web" interface.  

Kelly


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Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Kelly Lynn Martin]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999 15:54:55 -0800 (PST), Deirdre Saoirse <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

>That's not the kind of project management I meant. I meant resource
>and time scheduling, critical path, pert and gantt charts and all
>that rot. There's NOTHING in open source. Some of the math is hairy
>but that doesn't have to be a part of the initial release (resource
>levelling is an n-dimensional problem depending on the criteria
>established).

Oh, bother, somewhere in my mailbox I have a message from someone who
is actually working on this.  If I ever find it, I'll forward it to
you.

Kelly


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Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Laurel Fan]

Excerpts from linuxchix: 1-Dec-99 Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (.. by
Maureen [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> Laurel:
> Laurel Fan wrote:
> > Excerpts from linuxchix: 1-Dec-99 Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (.. by
> > Maureen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > What do you think?
> > 
> > I think that when choosing a project to spend my free time on, I am far
> > more concerned about the content and philosophy than the demographic
> > credentials of those running it.   If you want to work on something that
> > I have no interest in, then I am obviously not going to participate.
>  
> Well, I can read nothing in my missive that says you would have to do so.
> "If we can come together on some projects" means exactly that.

I read nothing in my missive that says you said so.  I believe that
statement means that you would start one or more projects.  Since I have
no projects I would like to start myself, if I were to participate, I
would be be participating in one that you started, you being either you
personally or the organization under discussion.  I merely tried to
state that if the project was interesting, i would participate, and that
if the project was not interesting, i would not participate.

I read the "what do you think?" as, in part, "would you participate in
this?", and I think "I would if the project was interesting." is a valid
response.

> That's fine.  But if you read the thread, it all began about a list of 50
> people who were big deals in Linux.  The concern was that women were
> under-represented.  Well, if anyone wants women on that list, then the 
> game must
> be played.  Too bad, but's that's life ITRW.

Ok.  My motivation for getting more women into Linux/Unix/free
software/etc. is that its fun and they don't know what they're missing. 
I don't have any particular wish to get on any list or to help anyone
get on any list.  (to me, it seems that people who get on lists spend
less time coding and more time talking.  doesn't sound fun to me, but
YMMV).  Any women or men who would be on the list probably have big
enough egos that they dont need my help anyway ;)

> > Also, the words "supportive" and "non-judgemental" sort of scare me.
> > What if I have some really bad ideas?  Does everyone have to support
> > them?
>  
> Any statement can be carried to its logical extreme, neh?  We are 
> all reasonable
> people.  It is one thing to criticize work, it is another to 
> criticize ad hominem.  This is the distinction I assume is understood.
> A cooperative software project requires a certain openness that allows for
> constructive criticism, at least in my experience.

True.  But I've found that some people do have a tendency to take
criticism of their ideas personally, and people may not be contributing
for this reason.  Any hacker invests a bit of him or her self in thier
projects.  In theory, there is a sharp distinction between attacking an
idea and attacking a person,  but in practice, it is sometimes hard to
draw the distinction, especically in a project where all people know of
each other is through their ideas.  I agree with you, but I've
participated in discussions where the "supportiveness" has been taken
too far and stopped discussion about the relevant issues because they
were "offensive", or might "hurt someone's feelings".  I've never seen
this on a software project, but then, I've never been on a "supportive"
software project.

I've also found that personal attacks aren't taken seriously in many net
cultures.  I think some of this shyness and hesitancy to contribute may
be due to culture clashes.

> You don't have to participate.  No one has asked you specifically to
> do so.

Well, I thought that when you said "What do you think?" that you were
asking for opinions, and that when you sent this to the list, you were
asking opinions from everyone on the list.  If this impression was
incorrect, please say so and I'll shut up.

> In
> fact, if the demographics bother you, I suggest you don't.  You
> are obviously not having any problems participating in predominantly
> male development groups. 

I didnt say that the demographics bothered me. I just said that
demographics is not a major factor that I consider when deciding on a
project to work on.

> I don't either, but some women seem to have voiced a certain shyness
> about their work which might be helped by demographics.

Might be.  I think it might be helped more by working on something they
enjoy and are confident in.  Doing both might work better.  But of
course, we don't now since we're not them.  (Has anyone who previously
expressed this shyness commented on this?  I haven't seen any, but I've
just been away for a few days and came back to 2M of email, and my
mailer decided it didn't feel like sorting in date order, so I may just
have missed it). 


[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Deirdre Saoirse]

On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Robert Kiesling wrote:

> Looks `way cool, but I'm not yet sold on python.  What does Python
> offer that Smalltalk doesn't (that's the only other widely known
> object oriented environment I can think of).

Python is compiled down to a bytecode level, so it's faster for one
thing. Smalltalk can be godawful slow. Also, it's not OO-only. It would be
more appropriate to think of Python as an OO language that isn't (like
Smalltalk and Java) fanatical about the OO to the point of
uselessness. Unlike Java, it offers multiple inheritane (not a bandaid
workaround like Java has).

-- 
_Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
   My three rules for happy living:  No Windows, No Java, No Perl.
"I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie."
 -- Rick Moen



[EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org

Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Maureen Lecuona]

Deirdre:

Why is non-OO better?  I've coded in JAVA (not in Python) and have found very
little need for anything beyond what is available in JAVA, especially when I
want to be able to compile the code, which is possible to do in using JAVA, but
I haven't heard of this being true in Python...

I find JAVA (and C++) generic programming libraries most useful, and real time
savers.  Plus, I like having stable language bindings for CORBA.  I believe
Python IDL bindings are still being developed...

Just wondering,
Maureen Lecuona
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Deirdre Saoirse wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 1 Dec 1999, Robert Kiesling wrote:
> 
> > Looks `way cool, but I'm not yet sold on python.  What does Python
> > offer that Smalltalk doesn't (that's the only other widely known
> > object oriented environment I can think of).
> 
> Python is compiled down to a bytecode level, so it's faster for one
> thing. Smalltalk can be godawful slow. Also, it's not OO-only. It would be
> more appropriate to think of Python as an OO language that isn't (like
> Smalltalk and Java) fanatical about the OO to the point of
> uselessness. Unlike Java, it offers multiple inheritane (not a bandaid
> workaround like Java has).
> 
> --
> _Deirdre   *   http://www.linuxcabal.net   *   http://www.deirdre.net
>My three rules for happy living:  No Windows, No Java, No Perl.
> "I'd love to have the green paint concession on the next Matrix movie."
>  -- Rick Moen
> 
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]   http://www.linuxchix.org


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Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (was Re: 50 people to watch)

[Alain Toussaint]

> Looks `way cool, but I'm not yet sold on python.  What does Python
> offer that Smalltalk doesn't...

swig (look at ),it's a wrapper generator for scripting
languages,it will generate code which you include in your C/C++ libraries and
then,the lib become accessible to python,but this may be a bit moot since
anyone's free to write a Smalltalk module for swig.

Alain


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