Excerpts from linuxchix: 1-Dec-99 Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (.. by
Maureen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Laurel:
> Laurel Fan wrote:
> > Excerpts from linuxchix: 1-Dec-99 Re: [issues] Jamie Lokier (.. by
> > Maureen [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > What do you think?
> >
> > I think that when choosing a project to spend my free time on, I am far
> > more concerned about the content and philosophy than the demographic
> > credentials of those running it. If you want to work on something that
> > I have no interest in, then I am obviously not going to participate.
>
> Well, I can read nothing in my missive that says you would have to do so.
> "If we can come together on some projects" means exactly that.
I read nothing in my missive that says you said so. I believe that
statement means that you would start one or more projects. Since I have
no projects I would like to start myself, if I were to participate, I
would be be participating in one that you started, you being either you
personally or the organization under discussion. I merely tried to
state that if the project was interesting, i would participate, and that
if the project was not interesting, i would not participate.
I read the "what do you think?" as, in part, "would you participate in
this?", and I think "I would if the project was interesting." is a valid
response.
> That's fine. But if you read the thread, it all began about a list of 50
> people who were big deals in Linux. The concern was that women were
> under-represented. Well, if anyone wants women on that list, then the
> game must
> be played. Too bad, but's that's life ITRW.
Ok. My motivation for getting more women into Linux/Unix/free
software/etc. is that its fun and they don't know what they're missing.
I don't have any particular wish to get on any list or to help anyone
get on any list. (to me, it seems that people who get on lists spend
less time coding and more time talking. doesn't sound fun to me, but
YMMV). Any women or men who would be on the list probably have big
enough egos that they dont need my help anyway ;)
> > Also, the words "supportive" and "non-judgemental" sort of scare me.
> > What if I have some really bad ideas? Does everyone have to support
> > them?
>
> Any statement can be carried to its logical extreme, neh? We are
> all reasonable
> people. It is one thing to criticize work, it is another to
> criticize ad hominem. This is the distinction I assume is understood.
> A cooperative software project requires a certain openness that allows for
> constructive criticism, at least in my experience.
True. But I've found that some people do have a tendency to take
criticism of their ideas personally, and people may not be contributing
for this reason. Any hacker invests a bit of him or her self in thier
projects. In theory, there is a sharp distinction between attacking an
idea and attacking a person, but in practice, it is sometimes hard to
draw the distinction, especically in a project where all people know of
each other is through their ideas. I agree with you, but I've
participated in discussions where the "supportiveness" has been taken
too far and stopped discussion about the relevant issues because they
were "offensive", or might "hurt someone's feelings". I've never seen
this on a software project, but then, I've never been on a "supportive"
software project.
I've also found that personal attacks aren't taken seriously in many net
cultures. I think some of this shyness and hesitancy to contribute may
be due to culture clashes.
> You don't have to participate. No one has asked you specifically to
> do so.
Well, I thought that when you said "What do you think?" that you were
asking for opinions, and that when you sent this to the list, you were
asking opinions from everyone on the list. If this impression was
incorrect, please say so and I'll shut up.
> In
> fact, if the demographics bother you, I suggest you don't. You
> are obviously not having any problems participating in predominantly
> male development groups.
I didnt say that the demographics bothered me. I just said that
demographics is not a major factor that I consider when deciding on a
project to work on.
> I don't either, but some women seem to have voiced a certain shyness
> about their work which might be helped by demographics.
Might be. I think it might be helped more by working on something they
enjoy and are confident in. Doing both might work better. But of
course, we don't now since we're not them. (Has anyone who previously
expressed this shyness commented on this? I haven't seen any, but I've
just been away for a few days and came back to 2M of email, and my
mailer decided it didn't feel like sorting in date order, so I may just
have missed it).
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