Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags
On 24/03/2014 02:43, Tom Wijsman wrote: > On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 23:47:22 +0200 > Alan McKinnon wrote: > >> Tags work best when they describe narrow, clearly defined attributes, >> and the thing they are applied to can have one, two or more of these >> attributes or sometimes even none. Music and movie genres are an >> excellent example - there are only so many of them and for the most >> part one can tell whether a tag really is a genre or not. > > There are more ways to search for a music or a movie than a genre: Genre was just one example of tag usage for illustration. Doesn't mean there aren't other equally good or valid examples. > > What mood is it in? What are key elements of its plot or lyrics? > Where does it take place? For which audience is it meant? Which praises > has it received? What kind of style is it made in? What is it based on? > What is the attitude of it? What looks or effects does it have? Is it > appropriate for children? Does it contain explicit things? > > Let's do this for movies. I'm looking for a ... > > ... serial killer (key element) that is scary (mood)? > Carrie, Halloween, Saw, Scream, ... > > ... musical (genre) that makes one feel good (mood)? > Aaja Nachle, Frozen, Grease, The Sound of Music, ... > > ... good versus evil (plot) based on comics (based on)? > Batman, Sin City, Superman, The Avengers, ... > > ... goofy (attitude) hero (key element) where nothing goes right (plot)? > Due Date, Faulty Towers, Monty Python's Flying Circus, Mr Bean, ... > > These are results from an actual movie recommendation site; similarly, > the same exists for music too, where you can for example look for a > female american singer-songwriter singing catchy contemporary country. > > Getting back to Gentoo; when I would look for some package, I want it to > be a lightweight, do audio recordings, organize these audio recordings > and do effects on these audio recordings. So, I'll be looking for tags > like "lightweight, audio-recording, file-organization, sound-effects"; > if that's to broad, I can take two of them and test some of that. > > Thinking about the different types of things to search for; I'm > thinking about ... > > ... what the characteristics of the software are > (light/heavy, new/old, extensible/modular/nonstandard, ...), > > ... what the software can do (record audio, organize files, ...), > > ... what category (browser, development, DAW software, utility, ...), > > ... what kind of interface the software has to me (CLI, GUI, ...), > > ... what interconnectivity the software has (internet, bluetooth, ...), > > ... and so on ... > > We could make a list of types (some already mentioned above) and a list > of possible tags for that type to shape the tag system somewhat. Have you considered just how much heavy lifting that is? Who is going to compile the list of tags? Who is going to approve/disapprove tagable attributes and the tags themselves? How will you resolve disagreements people have? What about the case of a package maintainer that simply can't be bothered doing tags at all? I'm not against tagging per se, they can be useful. But they do have to be strictly controlled otherwise things get out of hand very quickly. Every case I've seen of software that uses a freeform tagging mechanism fails almost instantly as it becomes very inconsistent. I have one of these apps in a corporate setting right now, have you any idea how many ways people can come up with to tag the concept of "cloud"? I have tags in there where someone translated the word "cloud" to a different language! It sounded like a good idea at the time to them All in all, tagging is a huge amount of work and the odds of failure are high. People need to be aware of this reality. Wyatt Epp's post at 03:25 expresses very nicely in a more formal language what I'm saying. -- Alan McKinnon alan.mckin...@gmail.com
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 09:32:40 +0200 Alan McKinnon wrote: > On 24/03/2014 02:43, Tom Wijsman wrote: > > On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 23:47:22 +0200 > > Alan McKinnon wrote: > > > >> Tags work best when they describe narrow, clearly defined > >> attributes, and the thing they are applied to can have one, two or > >> more of these attributes or sometimes even none. Music and movie > >> genres are an excellent example - there are only so many of them > >> and for the most part one can tell whether a tag really is a genre > >> or not. > > > > There are more ways to search for a music or a movie than a genre: > > Genre was just one example of tag usage for illustration. Doesn't mean > there aren't other equally good or valid examples. +1 Ah, in that case, what I've said backs up your thought. \o/ > > We could make a list of types (some already mentioned above) and a > > list of possible tags for that type to shape the tag system > > somewhat. > > Have you considered just how much heavy lifting that is? Who is going > to compile the list of tags? +1 Yes, it's why I've stated before this should be crowd sourced. > Who is going to approve/disapprove tagable attributes and the tags > themselves? Approval by default (with a quick skim over it) where we disapprove what's not appropriate once we spot it could work. The "tagging rules" will make themselves here. Those whom are interested could do it; that is, I'd expect Alec to help out a bit, maybe I do too, maybe others? > How will you resolve disagreements people have? Discussion and/or votes. > What about the case of a package maintainer that simply can't be > bothered doing tags at all? +1 [see crowd sourced idea] > I'm not against tagging per se, they can be useful. +1, same thought; it's nice to have, but it needs to be good to work. > But they do have to be strictly controlled otherwise things get out > of hand very quickly. Every case I've seen of software that uses a > freeform tagging mechanism fails almost instantly as it becomes very > inconsistent. I have one of these apps in a corporate setting right > now, have you any idea how many ways people can come up with to tag > the concept of "cloud"? I have tags in there where someone translated > the word "cloud" to a different language! It sounded like a good idea > at the time to them > > All in all, tagging is a huge amount of work and the odds of failure > are high. People need to be aware of this reality. +1 As can be seen that it can be made to work with things like movie and music recommendation; it indeed took a while till they got at that point, doing the work right avoids us to spend too much time on this. > Wyatt Epp's post at 03:25 expresses very nicely in a more formal > language what I'm saying. +1 -- With kind regards, Tom Wijsman (TomWij) Gentoo Developer E-mail address : tom...@gentoo.org GPG Public Key : 6D34E57D GPG Fingerprint : C165 AF18 AB4C 400B C3D2 ABF0 95B2 1FCD 6D34 E57D
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA512 On Sun, 23 Mar 2014 15:46:09 +0100 Jeroen Roovers wrote: > On Sat, 22 Mar 2014 15:33:27 -0700 > Alec Warner wrote: > > > https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Package_Tags > >"This GLEP author would love to blight categories out of gentoo > history as a giant mistake." > > Why? > > > jer Categories are essentially tags, only less powerful as they can express relationship of 1:N while tags are can express M:N - -- Jan Matějka| Gentoo Developer https://gentoo.org | Gentoo Linux GPG: A33E F5BC A9F6 DAFD 2021 6FB6 3EBF D45B EEB6 CA8B -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux) iQEcBAEBCgAGBQJTMBi2AAoJEIN+7RD5ejahpUsH/3UPmgwx9PxtEJqzsz4q0zKi 6hfzNgeULOia7n8zIqv+UKS82EgkG1XW16xFabTvuFBM+0cHagIuMmA9ViLC/gHw DIcefzA9pOQ17Z+KpZJCWUQEzAjlAy2zrTtVaRihos/xo4I6y83tUxfIRq7v+0/e HRY2A/YTY8/8O+FYf32GfVHbL+1h3rXQXSXz9rd6n+wICfojAzw6Ngnrmr1yZPkO RRksZVYvmcHE2ve/CtGkmXYyr8qCs1n/gVdnl6M6Y3EBKopL+BgZkJpaDgWsinJj xwimfUYJbt5GfbVzKINwd+0d8w7cq0vcHLR851/8xHmNXLc+L4MzRnwAXKPK3u8= =s1CY -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 12:36:19 +0100 Jan Matejka wrote: > Categories are essentially tags, only less powerful as they can > express relationship of 1:N while tags are can express M:N No, categories are essentially directories. I was asking about tags, not about categories. It appears it's very hard to answer the simple questions of why we need tags and how we would use them. The answers should typically involve some explanation of how you're going to use the things once you have them. jer
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags
On 14-03-24 10:25 AM, Jeroen Roovers wrote: On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 12:36:19 +0100 Jan Matejka wrote: Categories are essentially tags, only less powerful as they can express relationship of 1:N while tags are can express M:N No, categories are essentially directories. I was asking about tags, not about categories. It appears it's very hard to answer the simple questions of why we need tags and how we would use them. The answers should typically involve some explanation of how you're going to use the things once you have them. jer A lot of people already replied to this question: package search. A trivial example, a user want to know all terminals available in portage. Of course he could try a `emerge --searchdesc terminal`, but then he would get anything mentioning terminal in the description: which would probably include a lot of "terminal applications" which are not terminals themselves... `emerge --search terminal` just doesn't cut it as "konsole" wouldn't be a result but is a terminal emulator... On the other hand, terminals are spread through many categories (gnome-terminal in gnome-base & konsole in kde-base to name the most obvious example). Thus tags are a nice way for user to find the applications they want. Damien
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:55:38 -0400 Damien Levac wrote: > A lot of people already replied to this question: package search. I didn't ask for an explanation on the mailing list. I quoted [1] because it needs to be more specific exactly where it needs to be more specific. The GLEP still doesn't explain properly why it exists in the first place. jer [1] https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Package_Tags
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:55:38 -0400 Damien Levac wrote: > A lot of people already replied to this question: package search. Sure, but can you point to prior examples of this kind of stuff actually working? -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags
On 14-03-24 12:28 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:55:38 -0400 Damien Levac wrote: A lot of people already replied to this question: package search. Sure, but can you point to prior examples of this kind of stuff actually working? I have no example for package searching... However it is used a lot in multimedia search since it is traditional to give tags to video for example. If you want a "funny" example of tags, see tags for animes on anidb.net --- this allows users to easily find animes that contains element they enjoy to see. That being said, I am surprised that having no example showing it works should be a deal breaker for trying it out. Wouldn't that mindset kill innovation? Personally, I expect it to be not so great at the beginning, as the tags chosen will most likely be the most clever ones on the first try, and will get more and more useful as the tag convention get better. Such a feature could later being used to create applications like *gasp* an intuitive GUI interface to portage or for statistical analysis of packages... Damien
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags
On Mon, Mar 24, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: > On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 10:55:38 -0400 > Damien Levac wrote: >> A lot of people already replied to this question: package search. > > Sure, but can you point to prior examples of this kind of stuff > actually working? > eix -C allows you to search for categories. It's horrendously under-powered, but almost a useful prototype of what could be. Pandora uses this general concept with superb granularity for graphing similarities in music. That the MGP data is only used for a streaming service is depressing. Alternativeto.net is software oriented and has a good bit of this. Results? http://alternativeto.net/tag/tiling/ Bam. Tiling window managers. (These are almost certainly all user-sourced; notice the innocent misuse in that list.) The various Danbooru-style sites will generally show off impressive community-sourced rigour as well as proving the efficacy of alias/implication at scale. I have a lot of respect for their collective pep. Most are NSFW, but this one probably won't be (much): http://safebooru.org/ The Library of Congress? (The modern library is practically built on this sort of metadata.) Regards, Wyatt
Re: [gentoo-dev] RFC GLEP 1005: Package Tags
On Mon, 24 Mar 2014 13:31:43 -0400 Damien Levac wrote: > That being said, I am surprised that having no example showing it > works should be a deal breaker for trying it out. Wouldn't that > mindset kill innovation? I ask, because this isn't the first time "tags" have been proposed as the magic solution to everything. Each previous time, everyone has had a slightly different, incompatible idea of what "tags" are, what they're supposed to do, and how they're supposed to do it. So I would like to see someone explain in detail, and without glossing over the inconvenient technicalities, just how "tags" will help with "searching". > Such a feature could later being used to create applications like > *gasp* an intuitive GUI interface to portage or for statistical > analysis of packages... Could, maybe. But the current lack of intuitive GUI and the lack of statistical analysis both have absolutely nothing to do with not having tags... -- Ciaran McCreesh signature.asc Description: PGP signature
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