Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:45:08 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> | Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be non-interactive and
> | most users like it that way. (Although the countdown when cleaning out
> | old packages kinda breaks that idea, but I digress.)
> 
> You really should give the GLEP a read. It's quite nice, you know...
> 

Your explanations hint at interacting with portage during an emerge.
Specifically you floated the idea of having emerge print a red flashy
message before doing the emerge. *That* is what I was commenting on.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:02:58 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| So if you didn't want people to actually review and comment on *your*
| GLEP, why did you write:
| 
| "The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing
| that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These
| are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course,
| suggestions on other items are good too..."

I want people to review and comment on it after they've actually read
the thing.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Stuart Herbert wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 14:51 -0500, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> 
>>Did you specifically ask them if it is because we have different news in
>>different locations?  Somehow I think you're obscuring some facts to
>>make your own argument.
> 
> 
> That seems an unpleasant accusation to make :(
> 
> The answer is that I didn't ask them if it was because we have different
> news in different locations.  The question didn't occur to me.
> 
> 
>>The only problem that we have now with our multiple mediums is that not
>>all news is on all mediums.  We should have the same information going
>>to all of these and let the user choose which method they like for
>>getting news.
> 
> 
> The critical difference between improving our existing mediums, and the
> emerge --news approach that I've proposed, is that emerge --news is the
> only approach that actively pushes news out to *all* users, and puts it
> in a place that is as guaranteed as anything else available to catch
> their attention.
> 
> All the other approaches rely on the user going somewhere to get news,
> whether it's signing up to a mailing list, reading www.g.o, reading the
> forums, or whatever.  Inevitably, this is only going to reach a smaller
> subsection of our user community.
> 
> What I care about is that we've taken the right steps to put important
> information in front of *all* of our users (and our devs!).  Even
> (especially?) the ones who are unable to keep up with the news as it is
> currently delivered.
> 
> Making sure our users are well-informed improves the level and quality
> of service that we provide; it can only enhance our reputation; and it
> should also cut down on the amount of developer time that goes into
> post-upgrade support (leaving more time for package maintenance).
> 

One source: http://errata.gentoo.org/

Push that out to as many alternate sources as you like (RSS feeds,
summaries in emerge --news, forums post, etc.), but make it known that
the website is *the* source (your alternate sources should point back to
it).
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:05:45 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
| > On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:45:08 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams"
| > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
| > wrote:
| > | Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be non-interactive
| > | and most users like it that way. (Although the countdown when
| > | cleaning out old packages kinda breaks that idea, but I digress.)
| > 
| > You really should give the GLEP a read. It's quite nice, you know...
| > 
| 
| Your explanations hint at interacting with portage during an emerge.
| Specifically you floated the idea of having emerge print a red flashy
| message before doing the emerge. *That* is what I was commenting on.

Ever noticed any of the other red flashies that emerge gives? For
example, if you try emerge -C glibc? Doesn't break the non-interactive
requirement, it's just yet another way of shoving something in the
user's face if they somehow ignore all the normal warnings.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:02:58 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> | So if you didn't want people to actually review and comment on *your*
> | GLEP, why did you write:
> | 
> | "The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing
> | that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These
> | are calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course,
> | suggestions on other items are good too..."
> 
> I want people to review and comment on it after they've actually read
> the thing.
> 

I have read it, and I find it lacking; thus the comments. Or are you
claiming that the idea of having a central website like errata.g.o with
GuideXML-ized migrations guides is in your GLEP? Its not. I'm proposing
adding that as the definative source of the errata, and feeding it to
other places (emerge --news, mailing lists, forums, GWN) as desired.

I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states "It is not
reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email
client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system.
In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must be in a very
simple format."

*ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never
get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight" requirement
appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation
standards (because of your XML hatred).

The news directory shouldn't the main source of the migration guides;
the website should be (one central page that can feed other sources).
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:05:45 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> | Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> | > On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:45:08 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams"
> | > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> | > wrote:
> | > | Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be non-interactive
> | > | and most users like it that way. (Although the countdown when
> | > | cleaning out old packages kinda breaks that idea, but I digress.)
> | > 
> | > You really should give the GLEP a read. It's quite nice, you know...
> | > 
> | 
> | Your explanations hint at interacting with portage during an emerge.
> | Specifically you floated the idea of having emerge print a red flashy
> | message before doing the emerge. *That* is what I was commenting on.
> 
> Ever noticed any of the other red flashies that emerge gives? For
> example, if you try emerge -C glibc? Doesn't break the non-interactive
> requirement, it's just yet another way of shoving something in the
> user's face if they somehow ignore all the normal warnings.
> 

Yes, I've noticed them. My point is that you need to be careful that the
red-flashy doesn't the primary way of delivering the message.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:24:27 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states "It is not
| reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email
| client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their
| system. In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must
| be in a very simple format."
| 
| *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to
| have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users
| would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The
| "lightweight" requirement appears to just be your way of subverting
| the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred).

I don't have a web browser installed on my server. Do you?

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Brian Harring]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 08:24:27PM -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states "It is not
> reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email
> client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system.
> In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must be in a very
> simple format."
> 
> *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
> a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never
> get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight" requirement
> appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation
> standards (because of your XML hatred).

We actually have links in the base profile iirc, either way, the 
example of where this breaks down is headless servers...

> The news directory shouldn't the main source of the migration guides;
> the website should be (one central page that can feed other sources).
Not necessarily the website imo, some central store where it's pushed 
out to all of the locations though (which I suspect you're getting 
at).
~harring


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:24:27 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> | I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states "It is not
> | reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email
> | client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their
> | system. In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must
> | be in a very simple format."
> | 
> | *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to
> | have a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users
> | would never get Gentoo installed in the first place. The
> | "lightweight" requirement appears to just be your way of subverting
> | the current documentation standards (because of your XML hatred).
> 
> I don't have a web browser installed on my server. Do you?
> 

So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't
lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server
without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Brian Harring wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 08:24:27PM -0500, Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> 
>>I'm also commenting on the part that *wrongly* states "It is not
>>reasonable to expect all users to have an MTA, *web browser*, email
>>client, cron daemon or text processing suite available on their system.
>>In particular, this means that any markup to be parsed must be in a very
>>simple format."
>>
>>*ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
>>a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never
>>get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight" requirement
>>appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation
>>standards (because of your XML hatred).
> 
> 
> We actually have links in the base profile iirc, either way, the 
> example of where this breaks down is headless servers...

Actually, a headless server would be administered from a workstation
that would actually have a head. (Unless you like the idea of
installing things by typing blindly on a keyboard ;))

And as I mentioned in my last reply to Ciaran, I doubt anyone installing
a server doesn't have access to the web (another computer for example).

And having the GuideXML as the main source does NOT preclude having the
other sources (such as emerge --news) for people sitting in the dark.

>>The news directory shouldn't the main source of the migration guides;
>>the website should be (one central page that can feed other sources).
> 
> Not necessarily the website imo, some central store where it's pushed 
> out to all of the locations though (which I suspect you're getting 
> at).

If I understand his position correctly, Ciaran doesn't want the GuideXML
version at all, which is a supremely stupid idea IMHO.


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Stephen P. Becker]

*ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never
get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight" requirement
appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation
standards (because of your XML hatred).


How about getting some facts straight before running your mouth?  Gentoo 
most certainly does not expect users to have a web browser to install. 
The last time I actually installed on x86 (which was some time ago 
admittedly), there was a .txt version of the install guide on the livecd.


Even then, the web browser you are speaking of runs directly off the 
livecd.  So, what happens when there is critical news to be read during 
the install phase inside the chroot, but no web browser is yet 
installed?  Are you suggesting we bloat stage1 and stage2 with some sort 
of XML parser so that the user can read news without having to kill the 
emerge and read the news outside the chroot?  I think you would have a 
seriously hard time convincing the release folks this is a good idea.


Furthermore, it is not possible to include any sort of XML parser with 
installers for certain arches which use very minimal netboots for the 
default installation method.  So really, your complaints about the 
"lightweight" requirement appears to just be a way of subverting 
attention away from the real reasons it is a good idea, and towards 
maintaining a flamewar with ciaran that you will surely lose.


-Steve

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Brian Harring wrote:
> Not necessarily the website imo, some central store where it's pushed 
> out to all of the locations though (which I suspect you're getting 
> at).

I forgot to clarify one point. I'm saying that http://errata.g.o/ should
be the *official* source where users go to find the info, not
neccessarity the place where the raw data is stored and pushed to other
places (although it certainly could be).
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Stephen P. Becker]

So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't
lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server
without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.


Funny, I've done three fresh installs on my various mips machines in the 
past couple of weeks, and I didn't read even a word of documentation to 
do it.


Besides, if somebody is installing gentoo on a server, do you really 
think that would be their only box?  Surely they have a workstation of 
some sort, since a proper server certainly would not be also used as a 
desktop.


-Steve

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:36:03 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation?

Actually, yes, I did. I can quite easily do installs without the
documentation, as can most other people who really know how Gentoo
works.

| (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo
| server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.

I bet there're lots of people who don't read the documentation using
the machine on which they're installing.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:41:36 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| If I understand his position correctly, Ciaran doesn't want the
| GuideXML version at all, which is a supremely stupid idea IMHO.

Read GLEP. GLEP good.

Especially the bit about interoperability with existing news sources.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Lance Albertson]

Nathan L. Adams wrote:

> *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
> a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never
> get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight" requirement
> appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation
> standards (because of your XML hatred).

Since when did GuideXML become the standard for all our websites?
Currently, the only website that uses it is www. Nothing else uses it.
If any solution to the errata site idea is going to come out, it doesn't
need to be guidexml, it can be anything.

After reading through the heated thread, I have yet to see your valid
point of pushing xml for such a simple task. All I have seen is two 3rd
grade kids arguing over a swing set. Please give some calm reasons for
your opinion instead of voicing things in such a heated manner. Making
assumptions about someone else's opinions gets you no where.

Please keep your discussion to this thread a discussion and not an
argument between you and ciaranm. Please take those off this list.

Cheers-

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
GPG Public Key:  
Key fingerprint: 0423 92F3 544A 1282 5AB1  4D07 416F A15D 27F4 B742

ramereth/irc.freenode.net


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Stephen P. Becker wrote:
>> *ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
>> a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never
>> get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight" requirement
>> appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation
>> standards (because of your XML hatred).
> 
> 
> How about getting some facts straight before running your mouth?  Gentoo
> most certainly does not expect users to have a web browser to install.
> The last time I actually installed on x86 (which was some time ago
> admittedly), there was a .txt version of the install guide on the livecd.
> 
> Even then, the web browser you are speaking of runs directly off the
> livecd.  So, what happens when there is critical news to be read during
> the install phase inside the chroot, but no web browser is yet
> installed?  Are you suggesting we bloat stage1 and stage2 with some sort
> of XML parser so that the user can read news without having to kill the
> emerge and read the news outside the chroot?  I think you would have a
> seriously hard time convincing the release folks this is a good idea.
> 
> Furthermore, it is not possible to include any sort of XML parser with
> installers for certain arches which use very minimal netboots for the
> default installation method.  So really, your complaints about the
> "lightweight" requirement appears to just be a way of subverting
> attention away from the real reasons it is a good idea, and towards
> maintaining a flamewar with ciaran that you will surely lose.
>

Let me say it one more time. I'm not saying you have to have a web
browser installed on the system that you are updating or installing. I'm
saying that the GuideXML docs are the standard, official source of
documentation and the same should hold true for the migration guides.
I'm also saying that feedback from users said they want ONE official
place to find this stuff. Therefor any plan that doesn't take both of
those things into account is silly. And having the GuideXML-ized guides
on a central website marked as the 'official-one-stop-for-errata' does
not in any way shape or form preclude anyone from mirroring that info in
a text file, forum post, emerge --news, mailing list, etc. etc. ad nauseum.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting Important Updates To Users

[Daniel Drake]

Thierry Carrez wrote:

But it's a good idea to have some kind of automatic replication of
frontpage announcements to gentoo-announce and the forums, this will
help getting important messages through. However, I'm not sure *all*
frontpage contents should get replicated to gentoo-announce and the
forums. GWN announcements for example do not need to appear elsewhere...



While we're talking about replicating the front page, I just added the Gentoo 
News rdf feed to Planet Gentoo and Gentoo Universe.


I hope this helps the overall situation a very little bit :)

Daniel
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Stephen P. Becker wrote:
> 
>> So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't
>> lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server
>> without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.
> 
> 
> Funny, I've done three fresh installs on my various mips machines in the
> past couple of weeks, and I didn't read even a word of documentation to
> do it.
> 
> Besides, if somebody is installing gentoo on a server, do you really
> think that would be their only box?  Surely they have a workstation of
> some sort, since a proper server certainly would not be also used as a
> desktop.

And therefore they would have a access to a web browser. Thank you for
helping to explain my point.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:36:03 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> | So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation?
> 
> Actually, yes, I did. I can quite easily do installs without the
> documentation, as can most other people who really know how Gentoo
> works.

And as a long time developer, I'm sure you represent the typical user...

> | (Don't lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo
> | server without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.
> 
> I bet there're lots of people who don't read the documentation using
> the machine on which they're installing.

See above.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Grant Goodyear]

Nathan L. Adams wrote: [Thu Nov 03 2005, 07:02:58PM CST]
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
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> 
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > Read the list of requirements in the GLEP. The plain text solution
> > meets all of them. XML fails on several.
> 
> If readability isn't a requirement, your list is wrong.

I would argue that reading raw xml is a lot less fun than reading minimally
marked-up plain text (such as an e-mail).

> > | So what are the trade-offs of the 'flat file'? If you store a
> > | migration guide as a 'flat file', its not going to be very readable.
> > 
> > Who said anything about storing a migration guide as a flat file? Read
> > the GLEP.
> 
> No, *you* need to read my previous response. I was using 'flat file' to
> mean whatever it is you're calling your less-than-GuideXML scheme.

*Sigh*  I think you might be misinterpreting the GLEP.  The news items
are likely to be fairly short, such as the "YourSQL" example that's in
the GLEP.  The news item would then point to a migration guide that
resides elsewhere, if needed.

The point behind having the news pulled by portage is that the headless
server, for example,  would only report news items that are relevant to
that machine.  The server's admin could then fire up a web browser on a
desktop machine to read any necessary additional info.

> > | GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons!

True, but at the same time there's a reason that GLEPs can be written in
restructured text as well as guidexml.  I doubt that it's accidental
that almost all GLEPs have been submitted in restructured text rather
than guidexml.  (Incidentally, I like our guidexml.  I think that it
renders quite well for what we want.  I'm not so fond of writing it,
however.)

That's really beside the point, though.  The real point is that plain
text news items are going to be the easiest to create and the easiest to
read on a console screen.

As for having an errata page, it wouldn't be difficult to write a
program to automatically convert news items to guidexml.  I suspect that
ciaranm could even be talked into writing it, if such a page were to
become reality.

-g2boojum-
-- 
Grant Goodyear  
Gentoo Developer
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.gentoo.org/~g2boojum
GPG Fingerprint: D706 9802 1663 DEF5 81B0  9573 A6DC 7152 E0F6 5B76


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Lance Albertson]

Grant Goodyear wrote:

>>>| GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons!
> 
> 
> True, but at the same time there's a reason that GLEPs can be written in
> restructured text as well as guidexml.  I doubt that it's accidental
> that almost all GLEPs have been submitted in restructured text rather
> than guidexml.  (Incidentally, I like our guidexml.  I think that it
> renders quite well for what we want.  I'm not so fond of writing it,
> however.)

Here here ... I like how GLEPs are primarily in RST format which is
really easy to read in raw form. My vote/opinion is to use a similar
format for news items which I'm pretty sure can be easily converted to
whatever format we end up using (GuideXML or not) for the site portion
of this GLEP.

Cheers-

-- 
Lance Albertson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Infrastructure | Operations Manager

---
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Luis F. Araujo]

Nathan L. Adams wrote:


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Stephen P. Becker wrote:
 


So you installed your server without reading *any* documenation? (Don't
lie). And you expect that the average user installs a Gentoo server
without at least referencing the documentation? Pa-leaze.
 


Funny, I've done three fresh installs on my various mips machines in the
past couple of weeks, and I didn't read even a word of documentation to
do it.

Besides, if somebody is installing gentoo on a server, do you really
think that would be their only box?  Surely they have a workstation of
some sort, since a proper server certainly would not be also used as a
desktop.
   



And therefore they would have a access to a web browser. Thank you for
helping to explain my point.
 

The point is not about havig access to a web browser, but to have it 
installed

in the respective box reading news.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Qian Qiao]

On 11/4/05, Nathan L. Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And as a long time developer, I'm sure you represent the typical user...

Well, I'm a normal user here, and I can install gentoo quite easily
without reading the documentation. it's dead simple:
prepare the disks -> get the stage tarballs -> chroot ->
bootstrap/emerge -e system -> build the kernel -> build the bootloader
-> a few config tweaks.

Onces one gets the idea, i don't see how a gentoo installation is
harder than a RH or debian or suse one.

-- Joe

--
There are 3 kinds of people in the world:
Those who can count, and those who can't.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Lance Albertson wrote:
> Nathan L. Adams wrote:
> 
> 
>>*ALL* of the official docs are GuideXML; Gentoo *expects* users to have
>>a web browser by default. Otherwise a vast majority of users would never
>>get Gentoo installed in the first place. The "lightweight" requirement
>>appears to just be your way of subverting the current documentation
>>standards (because of your XML hatred).
> 
> 
> Since when did GuideXML become the standard for all our websites?
> Currently, the only website that uses it is www. Nothing else uses it.
> If any solution to the errata site idea is going to come out, it doesn't
> need to be guidexml, it can be anything.

http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/gdp/doc/doc-policy.xml#doc_chap3

"However, when the document is finished, it should be transformed into
GuideXML and made available on the Gentoo CVS infrastructure. It must
also be registered in the metadoc.xml file if applicable."

I never said "all [Gentoo] website"; just documentation. Errata is
documentation.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Grant Goodyear wrote:
> Nathan L. Adams wrote: [Thu Nov 03 2005, 07:02:58PM CST]
> 
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>>
>>Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
>>
>>>Read the list of requirements in the GLEP. The plain text solution
>>>meets all of them. XML fails on several.
>>
>>If readability isn't a requirement, your list is wrong.
> 
> 
> I would argue that reading raw xml is a lot less fun than reading minimally
> marked-up plain text (such as an e-mail).

Oh good grief! Nobody is arguing that the user should have to read raw XML.

> 
>>>| So what are the trade-offs of the 'flat file'? If you store a
>>>| migration guide as a 'flat file', its not going to be very readable.
>>>
>>>Who said anything about storing a migration guide as a flat file? Read
>>>the GLEP.
>>
>>No, *you* need to read my previous response. I was using 'flat file' to
>>mean whatever it is you're calling your less-than-GuideXML scheme.
> 
> *Sigh*  I think you might be misinterpreting the GLEP.  The news items
> are likely to be fairly short, such as the "YourSQL" example that's in
> the GLEP.  The news item would then point to a migration guide that
> resides elsewhere, if needed.

No, I happen to understand the that point. Emerge outputting a short
summary is great. But the GLEP should cover the "hey mr. end user, the
central repository for errata/full fledged migration guides is here:
[insert url]" as well.

> 
> The point behind having the news pulled by portage is that the headless
> server, for example,  would only report news items that are relevant to
> that machine.  The server's admin could then fire up a web browser on a
> desktop machine to read any necessary additional info.

Great; I'm not against that. Now where does that admin point her web
browser? Mailing list archive? GWN archive? The Forums? The stated
feedback is that users what a central place for the errata (whether the
errata be large or small).

> 
>>>| GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons!
> 
> 
> True, but at the same time there's a reason that GLEPs can be written in
> restructured text as well as guidexml.  I doubt that it's accidental
> that almost all GLEPs have been submitted in restructured text rather
> than guidexml.  (Incidentally, I like our guidexml.  I think that it
> renders quite well for what we want.  I'm not so fond of writing it,
> however.)
> 
> That's really beside the point, though.  The real point is that plain
> text news items are going to be the easiest to create and the easiest to
> read on a console screen.
> 
> As for having an errata page, it wouldn't be difficult to write a
> program to automatically convert news items to guidexml.  I suspect that
> ciaranm could even be talked into writing it, if such a page were to
> become reality.

I happen to think that the assumption that the errata are going to be
small is a bad one. I think if errata is neccessary in the first place
then its going to be something larger than a screen's worth of console
output and worth the supposed trouble of GuideXML. So why not approach
it from the GuideXML end first, and extract the summary from that?
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[gentoo-dev] Themes for Webapplication

[Rene Zbinden]

I am writing an eubild for an webapplication (wiki) and there are a lot 
of themes available. I write an ebuild for these themes. Now my question 
is where do I install these themes so that webapp-config handles them 
correctly.

--
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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted buglist needs attention

[Norguhtar]

Ciaran McCreesh wrote:


103436: net-?/nnfc-0.8.1.ebuild (New Package)
 


I'm can mantain this package. I'm added this :)

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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Jan Kundrát]

On Wednesday 02 of November 2005 23:34 Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> Oh? Our GuideXML to HTML conversion is thousands of lines of code...

...including stuff for detecting outdated translations, inclusion of icons for 
the homepage etc etc.

Cheers,
-jkt

-- 
cd /local/pub && more beer > /dev/mouth


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Getting Important Updates To Users

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 12:11 +0900, pclouds wrote:
> 
>>Just curious how other distros deliver important news to their users?
> 
> 
> Red Hat has you subscribe to RHN, which sends you errata based on your
> installed configuration.  When you add packages via up2date, Red Hat
> knows.
> 
> Others just use mailing lists, as far as I know, though I have limited
> experience with other distributions.  (Slackware, LFS, and RH are it)
> 

Almost all of them publish 'errata'. That is why I suggest a single
place for all technical info such as the recent apache upgrade:

http://errata.gentoo.org/

i.e. Upgrade/migration stuff would go there as opposed to 'fresh
install' stuff (which belongs in the normal docs area).

I forget who it was, but one of the folks involved in that said that the
users overwhelmingly want a *single* place to look for this type of
info. You can repost the summaries elsewhere (via a RSS feed to GWN or
the mailing list(s) for example), but there should be one place to get
all of the info.

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Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: Getting Important Updates To Users

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Duncan wrote:
> Stuart Herbert posted <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
> excerpted below,  on Mon, 31 Oct 2005 19:05:33 +:
> 
>>The original problem is that GWN, forums, planet.g.o, gentoo-dev - even
>>together, we've seen that they just don't reach enough of our user base.
>>Aren't we just going to reach the same people by putting more news in
>>the same old place?  How is that going to reach the people we're not
>>reaching today?
> 
> 
> There is /one/ way to reach /everyone/ doing an upgrade (well, those that
> do emerge -a or -p, anyway, and those that don't, well... they apparently
> /like/ being left in the dark, and doing perhaps risky upgrades without
> knowing what's going on, so let's not disturb their "enjoyment" ).
> 
> That ONE way: Push a "null" portage -rX upgrade to both stable and ~
> versions, the sole purpose of which is to print the *VITALLY* *IMPORTANT*
> *ANNOUNCEMENT* as an einfo both after the "upgrade", and as part of the
> "portage will stop merging at this point and recalculate" message one gets
> with a -p or -a.  (For double-sure effect, make the first emerge action
> after the upgrade /only/ print the message, doing nothing else.  Further
> emerges would then go back to normal behavior.)
> 

Cramming this info in portage is stupid, because portage is supposed to
be NON-interactive. Does anyone really expect users to sit and stare at
the output of a compile (openoffice takes HOURS to compile) waiting for
an einfo to pass by?

Perhaps printing out an URI after portage is done would be useful:

http://errata.g.o/apache-migration.xml

Publishing the info on a webpage also allows you to view the info from
another computer if you seriously b0rk something during an upgrade.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 17:22:29 +0100 Jan Kundrát <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | What's wrong with XML format similar to the one that is used for our
> | GLSAs?
> 
> 1. Portage does not handle XML. Portage will not handle XML in the
> near future.
> 
> 2. Many users do not have an XML parser installed.
> 
> 3. The standard Unix tools cannot be used on XML files.
> 
> 4. Bloat.
> 
> 5. XML is merely adding another problem to the one we have already.
> 

6. Ciaran is completely biased against XML (or anything that isn't
stored as a simple flat file) ;)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> [a reply]

1. Store the actual guides as GuideXML at a central place such as
http://errata.gentoo.org/

2. Write a simple 'publishing' tool that extracts a summary and a link.
This is what gets pumped into portage and shown during an
# emerge --news

3. Rejoice.
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[pclouds]

On 11/3/05, Nathan L. Adams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
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>
> Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> > [a reply]
>
> 1. Store the actual guides as GuideXML at a central place such as
> http://errata.gentoo.org/
>
> 2. Write a simple 'publishing' tool that extracts a summary and a link.
> This is what gets pumped into portage and shown during an
> # emerge --news
>
> 3. Rejoice.
Well, i like this way. We may write a good migration article and a
summary which is used by emerge --news. This is better than just an
annoucement that something has changed. Anyone who is to make backward
incompatible changes will have to write detail guidelines in addition
to annoucement. That's good.
--
Bi Cờ Lao

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[gentoo-dev] X-modular on sparc.

[Ferris McCormick]

This is a random list of observations/incompatibilities/missing(?)
features I have noticed after installing X-modular on three sparc
systems (SB1000(2x900) kernel=2.6.13-rc3-vanilla, U60(2x450)
kernel=2.6.14-U60-2x450, U2(2x400) kernel=2.4.31-sparc-r2). Some of this
is repetitious, some is new.  Some might have already been documented
elsewhere, but I just don't remember it.

1. (repetition ad nauseam): If you need sunffb_drv.so (Creator/Elite
graphics), you MUST rebuild it by hand; instructions in previous emails
and at https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4890 --- this is a
serious bug (show stopper).

2. (repetition): VTswitch (CTRL-ALT-Fx) is missing, any kernel or
system.  Probably a problem in kbd driver.

3. (repetition):  I haven't figured out how (if at all) to activate
AltGraph under kernel-2.6 (OK with 2.4).  It's needed for some graphics
(e.g., cent-sign, European quote marks, 1/4 symbol, and so on).

4. (new): Some libraries seem not to be provided (libXss, libdps,
libdpstk, and probably others).  libdps is probably needed for DPSgtk,
at least (but see below).  On the other hand, it might be that these
libraries are completely unneeded or that their facilities are provided
elsewhere.

5. (new) Some uncommon xorg-x11 utilities seem not to be provided.  For
example, pswrap (also needed for DPSgtk), gccmakedep (needed for some
games), and doubtless others.  They might be someplace disguised with
some other name, but I can't find them.

6.  Probably other things that haven't made enough of an impression on
me for me to recall them. :)

There is probably a mechanism in place for officially reporting this
sort thing, but I am too lazy to look it up, and I think this
information is potentially of general interest anyway.  Slight apologies
to those of you who receive several copies of this note or who have
already seen all of this from me.  (But very slight.)

Feedback, other than flames, requested.  If notes like this offend you,
I really don't need to know that.

Regards,
Ferris
-- 
Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Devrel)


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[gentoo-dev] svk maintainer needed

[pclouds]

Hi,
I haven't recently used svk anymore so my svk maintaining would be not
good enough. Moreover, i have little time for Gentoo till i get back
to Vietnam in February. Anyone interesting in maintaining svk is
welcome or i will remove it two weeks later :)
Cheers,
--
Bi Cờ Lao

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[gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted buglist needs attention

[Tom Martin]

List,

There are currently 1066 open bugs assigned to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Could everyone please take a moment to scan through them?

Thanks,
-- 
Tom Martin, http://dev.gentoo.org/~slarti
AMD64, net-mail, shell-tools, vim, recruiters
Gentoo Linux


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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted buglist needs attention

[Carsten Lohrke]

On Thursday 03 November 2005 17:42, Tom Martin wrote:
> Could everyone please take a moment to scan through them?

More important would be imho, if everyone would take the time and have a look 
at the maintainer-needed bugs, instead continuously adding new packages while 
the share of unmaintained packages in the repository grows steadily. 


Carsten


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Re: [gentoo-dev] Proposed changes to base profile for Gentoo/ALT

[solar]

On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 13:11 +0100, Diego 'Flameeyes' Pettenò wrote:
> As I'd like to get sooner or later (better sooner) the profiles for 
> Gentoo/FreeBSD in main tree, I've synced the fake base profile in gentoo-alt 
> overlay with the one in the tree. Unfortunately there are things in base that 
> are linux-specific, so they, IMHO, should be moved in default-linux.
> 
> The attached patch is the proposed changes, they are mainly linux-specific 
> userland that does not work outside of Linux-based systems, but there are 
> also some GNU-specific packages like which that we don't use.
> 
> I would have some other changes for virtuals, but they are less important 
> right now.
> 
> Obviously if this is going to be applied the missing packages should be added 
> to the packages of default-linux and other linux profiles that does inherit 
> from base.


After reviewing the existing profiles effected by the proposed change
I'd suggest you do something like this.

cp -a base base-tmp
cd base
cat ~/base-alt-changes | patch
cd ..
diff -u base-tmp/packages base/packages | grep ^- | cut -c 2- > new.x
mv new.x base-tmp/packages
mv base core
mv base-tmp base
echo ../core > base/parent

# And then bsd inherits from core vs base.

-- 
solar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Gentoo Linux

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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted buglist needs attention

[Sebastian Bergmann]

Carsten Lohrke schrieb:
> More important would be imho, if everyone would take the time and 
> have a look at the maintainer-needed bugs, instead continuously 
> adding new packages while the share of unmaintained packages in the 
> repository grows steadily. 

 One thing I am interested would be whether or not I am allowed to add
 packages like latexmk [1] to the tree although I am not a member of the
 herd in charge of the respective category.

 --
 [1] https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111324

-- 
Sebastian Bergmann  http://www.sebastian-bergmann.de/
GnuPG Key: 0xB85B5D69 / 27A7 2B14 09E4 98CD 6277 0E5B 6867 C514 B85B 5D69


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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted buglist needs attention

[Mike Frysinger]

On Thu, Nov 03, 2005 at 06:06:24PM +0100, Sebastian Bergmann wrote:
> Carsten Lohrke schrieb:
> > More important would be imho, if everyone would take the time and 
> > have a look at the maintainer-needed bugs, instead continuously 
> > adding new packages while the share of unmaintained packages in the 
> > repository grows steadily. 
> 
>  One thing I am interested would be whether or not I am allowed to add
>  packages like latexmk [1] to the tree although I am not a member of the
>  herd in charge of the respective category.

ask the herd ... some dont care, others would beat you with the stick stuck up 
their butts (i know games team has a log to beat devs with)
-mike
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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted buglist needs attention

[Carsten Lohrke]

On Thursday 03 November 2005 18:06, Sebastian Bergmann wrote:
>  One thing I am interested would be whether or not I am allowed to add
>  packages like latexmk [1] to the tree although I am not a member of the
>  herd in charge of the respective category.

As long as you maintain it on your own and don't add this herd to metadata.xml 
without asking (that's unfriendly imho), it's your decision when you want to 
maintain something. On the other hand it's always nice to ask.


Carsten


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 08:49:42 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| 6. Ciaran is completely biased against XML (or anything that isn't
| stored as a simple flat file) ;)

It's not bias. I give XML exactly what it deserves. SGML is a giant
fire breathing stomping monster useful for crushing Tokyo. XML is the
spawn of said giant fire breathing stomping monster that's had its
claws and teeth removed, its jaws glued shut, its legs chained together
and its tail nailed to the ground. And we're not trying to destroy any
large cities here...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted buglist needs attention

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 16:42:51 + Tom Martin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| There are currently 1066 open bugs assigned to
| [EMAIL PROTECTED]
| 
| Could everyone please take a moment to scan through them?

Here's a more useful list. It's a summary of the maintainer-wanted
ebuilds which are fairly unlikely to utterly suck. If anyone else wants
to help out with the REVIEWED tagging, feel free. You can get canned
responses to the most common screwups from [1].

I can also give you a list of people who throw hissy fits if you dare
suggest that their code may be anything less than perfect... It's a
pretty useful starting point for filtering out the worst of the
dross...

  7210: app-text/html2ps (New package)
 15326: kde-?/klineakconfig-0.5.1 (New package)
 57614: kde-?/kionjb (new package)
 74713: app-text/pdx-1.6.1 (new package)
 74928: media-sound/shn2make-2.11 (new package)
 81622: app-misc/fileschanged-0.6.4 (new package)
 81641: app-misc/cfilesplit-0.2 (new package)
 88638: dev-libs/sparsehash-0.1 (new package)
 93711: media-video/avi2mpeg-1.0 (new package)
 94078: sys-fs/smb-fuse-0.7.0 ebuild request
 96981: app-arch/XArchive (new ebuild)
 97387: new ebuild: app-misc/empty
 97677: istanbul - a desktop video screen capture recorder for the Free
Desktop
 98146: app-admin/sqlat-1.1.0 (New Package)
 99009: media-sound/cowbell (new package)
 99248: kde-?/kps-0.2.ebuild (New Package)
 9: app-emulation/faumachine-20050720.ebuild (new package)
100170: new ebuild: media-sound/lmms
100985: app-crypt/mypasswordsafe-20050615.ebuild (New Package)
101523: New ebuild: sys-apps/rrdcollect
101541: x11-plugins/gkfreq - gkrellm plugin (new ebuild).
102187: app-text/unicode-0.4.8.ebuild (New Package)
102323: sci-geosciences/gerris-0.6.0.ebuild (new package)
102449: app-misc/megatunix-0.7.9.ebuild (New Package)
102928: ebuild for media-sound/lltag
102931: Ebuild for media-gfx/llgal
102996: net-libs/gloox-0.6.1 (new package)
103436: net-?/nnfc-0.8.1.ebuild (New Package)
103852: gnaughty-1.1.0.ebuild (New Package)
104011: net-misc/ncp (new package)
104018: net-ftp/cmdftp (new package)
104024: net-misc/nat-traverse (new package)
104027: app-crypt/tthsum (new package)
104134: sys-apps/bootutils-0.0.5 ebuild request
104208: New ebuild : net-?/dnsproxy
104219: app-office/jgnash-1.9.2.ebuild (New Package)
104489: sambascanner-0.06.ebuild (New Package)
104628: media-?/japa ebuild
105096: media-?/wasp-0.1.3.ebuild (New Package)
105137: net-libs/libntlm-0.3.7.ebuild (New Package)
105171: net-zope/plone2pdf-0.3.4.ebuild (New Package)
105175: ebuild: rss2email
105191: media-?/fig2ps (new package)
105210: new package: dev-python/pydo
105227: net-zope/Kupu 1.3 (new ebuild)
105253: dev-db/pxlib
105438: earth3d-1.0.3.ebuild (New Package)
105482: sci-?/basemap-0.6.2 (new ebuild)
105665: new ebuild for dev-util/ups (light C/C++ debugger)
105671: media-sound/mpck-0.10.ebuild (New Package)
105775: media-tv/klear-0.4.1 (new ebuild)
105816: app-admin/logcheck-1.2.41 (new package)
106393: app-misc/lockfile-progs (new package)
106776: app-text/zebra-1.3.28 (new ebuild)
106985: New ebuild: dev-python/pydns
107045: app-office/tinyerp-client-3.0.2.ebuild (New)
107086: app-text/ugrep (new package)
107220: x11-themes/gartoon-0.5.ebuild (new package)
107248: dev-tex/catdvi-0.14.ebuild (New Package)
107269: net-irc/netwalker (new package)
107419: dev-tex/hyphen_show-2425.ebuild (New Package)
107791: app-shells/osh (new package)

This is a total of 62 bugs.

[1]: http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm/docs/mw-faq/

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



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Re: [gentoo-dev] svk maintainer needed

[kang]

pclouds wrote:


Hi,
I haven't recently used svk anymore so my svk maintaining would be not
good enough. Moreover, i have little time for Gentoo till i get back
to Vietnam in February. Anyone interesting in maintaining svk is
welcome or i will remove it two weeks later :)
Cheers,
--
Bi Cờ Lao

 


I can maintain it if no one else can.
--
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted buglist needs attention

[Stefan Schweizer]

On 11/3/05, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I can also give you a list of people who throw hissy fits if you dare
> suggest that their code may be anything less than perfect... It's a
> pretty useful starting point for filtering out the worst of the
> dross...

Do you have a list of people who contribute more than one ebuild and
might want to be a developer?

-- 
gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list

Re: [gentoo-dev] Re: GLEP 42 (Was: Getting Important Updates To Users)

[Stuart Herbert]

On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 14:51 -0500, Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> Did you specifically ask them if it is because we have different news in
> different locations?  Somehow I think you're obscuring some facts to
> make your own argument.

That seems an unpleasant accusation to make :(

The answer is that I didn't ask them if it was because we have different
news in different locations.  The question didn't occur to me.

> The only problem that we have now with our multiple mediums is that not
> all news is on all mediums.  We should have the same information going
> to all of these and let the user choose which method they like for
> getting news.

The critical difference between improving our existing mediums, and the
emerge --news approach that I've proposed, is that emerge --news is the
only approach that actively pushes news out to *all* users, and puts it
in a place that is as guaranteed as anything else available to catch
their attention.

All the other approaches rely on the user going somewhere to get news,
whether it's signing up to a mailing list, reading www.g.o, reading the
forums, or whatever.  Inevitably, this is only going to reach a smaller
subsection of our user community.

What I care about is that we've taken the right steps to put important
information in front of *all* of our users (and our devs!).  Even
(especially?) the ones who are unable to keep up with the news as it is
currently delivered.

Making sure our users are well-informed improves the level and quality
of service that we provide; it can only enhance our reputation; and it
should also cut down on the amount of developer time that goes into
post-upgrade support (leaving more time for package maintenance).

Best regards,
Stu
-- 
Stuart Herbert [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gentoo Developer  http://www.gentoo.org/
  http://stu.gnqs.org/diary/

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Re: [gentoo-dev] maintainer-wanted buglist needs attention

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 20:40:45 +0100 Stefan Schweizer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| On 11/3/05, Ciaran McCreesh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
| > I can also give you a list of people who throw hissy fits if you
| > dare suggest that their code may be anything less than perfect...
| > It's a pretty useful starting point for filtering out the worst of
| > the dross...
| 
| Do you have a list of people who contribute more than one ebuild and
| might want to be a developer?

I have a rough idea of some possibles in my head. The two of which I'm
sure have both said they're not interested in becoming developers
(both, incidentally, because they got sick of being screwed around by
recruiters previously). The rest I'm not confident enough in to waste
someone else's time on them, and I don't have time (or the inclination)
to recruit them myself...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



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[gentoo-dev] Binary packages and revdep-rebuild

[Paul Varner]

One of the common complaints with revdep-rebuild is that it wants to
constantly rebuild binary packages (most notably openoffice-bin). To
assist in resolving this issue, I have released gentoolkit-0.2.1_pre9
which adds the capability for an ebuild maintainer to adjust how
revdep-rebuild behaves towards binary packages.

The latest revdep-rebuild allows the user to control the following
variables:

LD_LIBRARY_MASK  - Mask of specially evaluated libraries
SEARCH_DIRS  - List of directories to search for executables and
libraries
SEARCH_DIRS_MASK - List of directories to not search

With the capability that I just added, a package maintainer can now
adjust the same variables.  To use this capability do the following:

1. Install a file into /etc/revdep-rebuild (I'm using the same
convention as /etc/env.d and prefixing the files with a number)
2. Inside of the file, place the appropriate changes to the variables.

For example: I have the following
file /etc/revdep-rebuild/10openoffice-bin on my system

# openoffice-bin revdep-rebuild configuration file
SEARCH_DIRS_MASK="/usr/lib/openoffice"

3. revdep-rebuild will accumulate the variables in the following order:

environment, /etc/make.conf, /etc/revdep-rebuild/* 

This means that a user can override your changes if desired, but your
changes will be honored by default.

Finally, one other change that I am considering is to add a PACKAGE_MASK
variable that will only be read from the files in /etc/revdep-rebuild
and cannot be overridden by the user (except by editing the file).  The
purpose will be to tell revdep-rebuild to never attempt to rebuild that
package. Before I implement that I would like to get some feedback on if
that is a desired feature.

Regards,
Paul



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[gentoo-dev] New Dev: markusle

[Brian Harring]

Hola all-

Got us a new dev to harass, mentored by ribosome, and helping out in 
the scientific herd- quantum chemistry, and molecular dynamics 
packages, subjects that have have the potential to cause 
cereberal hemorrhaging :)

In his own words-

I have been part of our research group's (http://www.ks.uiuc.edu/)
system administration team for the last 5 years. We have
a pretty large computational facility with probably more than
50 desktops, lots of servers, several hundred CPU's in beowulf
clusters, and many TB of (backuped) storage.

Currently, I am a post-doctoral researcher at the University
of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. This, unfortunately, implies
that I don't have a lot of spare time. What's left of it I spend
with my family, hacking away on my Thinkpad T30, and
reading. To remain somewhat sane, I maintain a pretty strict
running schedule of about 7-10 miles a day.
Finally, I really enjoy cooking; unfortunately, due to my
geographic location and a non-air conditioned apartment
any significant cooking is restricted to the cold mid-western
winter :)

So welcome him, dump bugs on 'em, and in general put him through the 
usual ringer :)
~harring


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[gentoo-dev] New Translator: achumakov

[Brian Harring]

Round two;

We've got a new lead russian translator, Alexey Chumakov (achumakov).

Feel free to harass him, make him tell you dirty words in russian, and 
make 'em do a bit of work in addition.

Some background info provided from him- 

I am 30. I was born in Kiev, Ukraine, and now live in Moscow.
Russian is my mother-tongue. I am married almost 12 years, and we live 
together with our beautiful 10-years-old daugher.

I am spinning in a computer world over 20 years. Grew up with Amstrad
and DEC MicroVAX, Atari, Commodore and Russian EC (IBM 360 clone). 
Then moved to PC and Mac, _but_ at that time completely missed Unix/Linux 
world as I had to lead some L10N projects then was CIO for the large 
non-IT company. Now I am the head of IT outsourcing department for 
Russian system integrator.

Localization is rather my hobby together with the applied linguistics,
usability and psychology.

Since K. Arkhipov ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) had installed Gentoo 2004.3 
on my home desktop (it was a Christmas joke ;), I am in fact reviving 
the GDP Russian branch to promote Gentoo Linux to the Russians and to 
learn it myself while maintaining docs translation ;-)

Everyone give Alexey a warm welcome.
~harring


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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 08:49:42 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> | 6. Ciaran is completely biased against XML (or anything that isn't
> | stored as a simple flat file) ;)
> 
> It's not bias. I give XML exactly what it deserves. SGML is a giant
> fire breathing stomping monster useful for crushing Tokyo. XML is the
> spawn of said giant fire breathing stomping monster that's had its
> claws and teeth removed, its jaws glued shut, its legs chained together
> and its tail nailed to the ground. And we're not trying to destroy any
> large cities here...
> 


You're just missing the fact that a flat file (or whatever it is you're
clinging to; for the purpose of this rant, I shall refer to your simple
data format as "flat file") has trade-offs, just like XML's trade off is
parsing overhead. XML was designed to solve certain problems;
portability of data, separation and portability of presentation from the
data, etc. Complexity in the parser is the trade-off.

Flat files can be great in certain situations. Flat files do indeed make
the parsing trivial. However SIMPLE CODE ISN'T ALWAYS THE MOST IMPORTANT
REQUIREMENT. In the case of this GLEP, the most important requirement is
getting the proper migration info to the users in the best possible way.

So what are the trade-offs of the 'flat file'? If you store a migration
guide as a 'flat file', its not going to be very readable. I would
certainly rather read info in GuideXML than some garbage output by einfo
or the like (and I'm talking about the same exact data, just a different
presentation). You're being daft if you say that your average terminal
output is easier to read and understand than the same data in proper
GuideXML format. OK, you say, you have a point there. But, you say, my
flat file allows me to write a 'presentation' proggy in relatively few
lines of trivial code. Yes, but now you have to write a new presentation
program for every type of presentation you want to do. Or worse you
would imbed the presentation in the data itself and make a new copy of
the data every time you want to present it differently. But, you say,
don't you have to do that with XML (i.e. a new style sheet definition
for each presentation)? Sure, but I don't have to re-write firefox in
the process...

So the point is that, yes, XML has a down side. But plain text, CSV
files, whatever have their downsides too. And the point of this GLEP
shouldn't be to push any XML-bashing agenda, it should be to present the
user with the migration guide in the best possible way. GuideXML is the
standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons!


Nathan
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:29:45 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Flat files can be great in certain situations. Flat files do indeed
| make the parsing trivial. However SIMPLE CODE ISN'T ALWAYS THE MOST
| IMPORTANT REQUIREMENT. In the case of this GLEP, the most important
| requirement is getting the proper migration info to the users in the
| best possible way.

Read the list of requirements in the GLEP. The plain text solution
meets all of them. XML fails on several.

And, incidentally, I came up with the requirements list *before*
dismissing XML.

| So what are the trade-offs of the 'flat file'? If you store a
| migration guide as a 'flat file', its not going to be very readable.

Who said anything about storing a migration guide as a flat file? Read
the GLEP.

| GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons!

No, it's the standard because Daniel said so. And the reasons behind
which web publishing setup we use have little relation to good reasons
for a news delivery system.

Why do you think we still send email in plain text?

*shrug* Anyway, if you want to come up with an alternate GLEP based
around XML, bittorrent, Java and CORBA, go right ahead. The GLEP system
is quite happy with handling multiple competing proposals for a given
topic, and at the end of it we can select the best proposal, reject all
the proposals or go and come up with a new proposal with bits from
both.

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Tue, 1 Nov 2005 14:32:47 +0100 Jakub Moc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> | What do you mean "they aren't tied to ebuilds"? I don't really
> | understand what this feature should do then, it seems. Once again,
> | what's wrong with reusing emerge --changelog mechanism for displaying
> | this kind of information?
> 
> We make changes that have scope other than ebuilds.
> 
> | I'm not particularly happy with idea of emerge as a newsreader
> | really, IMHO we should display relevant, vital upgrading information
> | *when relevant*, not to inform users about upgrades that they are not
> | interested in in the least.
> 
> Which is what my proposed GLEP does, at least as far as we can
> determine automatically. Yes, occasionally this will mean giving, say,
> mysql 4.1 upgrade instructions to people who plan to use only mysql
> 4.0, but then, if we didn't give them the news, most of them wouldn't
> know that they don't want to upgrade.
> 
> And it doesn't turn emerge into a news reader. All portage does is
> deliver the news. How said news is read is a different issue.
> 
> | And please, keep the thing simple so that I can be done in reasonable
> | amount of time and does not follow the destiny of einfo/ewarn logging
> | (3 years and counting).
> 
> Of course. Hence why I'm proposing something easy and workable, and not
> suggesting some magic new framework that will solve all existing
> problems (including world peace).
> 

Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be non-interactive and
most users like it that way. (Although the countdown when cleaning out
old packages kinda breaks that idea, but I digress.)

So just make sure that the scheme doesn't involve forcing the user to
notice anything during a 'normal' non-interactive emerge in order for it
to be effective. Thats why I keep pushing having a nice GuideXML version
in a central location like http://errata.g.o/ and just having emerge
output a summary and a link (however/at what point/with what mechanism
you decide to actually have portage output it).
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Ciaran McCreesh]

On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:45:08 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
| Just keep in mind that portage is supposed to be non-interactive and
| most users like it that way. (Although the countdown when cleaning out
| old packages kinda breaks that idea, but I digress.)

You really should give the GLEP a read. It's quite nice, you know...

-- 
Ciaran McCreesh : Gentoo Developer (Vim, Shell tools, Fluxbox, Cron)
Mail: ciaranm at gentoo.org
Web : http://dev.gentoo.org/~ciaranm



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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Chris Gianelloni wrote:
> On Tue, 2005-11-01 at 12:26 +, Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> 
>>On Tue, 01 Nov 2005 13:16:03 +0100 Thierry Carrez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>wrote:
>>| For them to know about it, they need to be warned when they do their
>>| "emerge -p world" or "emerge -a mysql" that the upgrade is not as easy
>>| as it seems. People using a cron job to sync are probably a
>>| significant part of our user base...
>>
>>Have Portage give a red flashy before emerge if there're unread news
>>items?
> 
> Or have it die unless they have
> I_LIKE_A_BROKEN_SYSTEM_PLEASE_IGNORE_NEWS="yes" in make.conf ;]
> 
>>Although, a better solution for users who cron sync would be to have
>>said cron mail them all the relevant news files...
> 
> We don't have control over what they do in cron, we do have control over
> portage itself.
> 

The cron thing is a *really* good idea. Its so good that its an example
in the Gentoo Cron How-to. A few developers actively debugging the sync
process might enjoy watching the output of a sync scroll by, but
normal/sane people have better things to do. (Note: I'm not bashing
Chris's statement here; I honestly don't know what point he was trying
to make).

So don't implement the --news thing in such a way that in the future a
developer might be tempted to tell a complaining user "whats the matter
with you? don't you read the output when you sync? no? what a loser; no
wonder your system is b0rked." (or something to that effect)
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Re: [gentoo-dev] GLEP ??: Critical News Reporting

[Nathan L. Adams]

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Ciaran McCreesh wrote:
> On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 19:29:45 -0500 "Nathan L. Adams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> | Flat files can be great in certain situations. Flat files do indeed
> | make the parsing trivial. However SIMPLE CODE ISN'T ALWAYS THE MOST
> | IMPORTANT REQUIREMENT. In the case of this GLEP, the most important
> | requirement is getting the proper migration info to the users in the
> | best possible way.
> 
> Read the list of requirements in the GLEP. The plain text solution
> meets all of them. XML fails on several.

If readability isn't a requirement, your list is wrong.

> And, incidentally, I came up with the requirements list *before*
> dismissing XML.

Given your past public statement about XML; I highly doubt that. Whether
you were concious of it or not, I suspect that XML bashing was always in
the mix.

> | So what are the trade-offs of the 'flat file'? If you store a
> | migration guide as a 'flat file', its not going to be very readable.
> 
> Who said anything about storing a migration guide as a flat file? Read
> the GLEP.

No, *you* need to read my previous response. I was using 'flat file' to
mean whatever it is you're calling your less-than-GuideXML scheme.

> | GuideXML is the standard for Gentoo docs for some damn good reasons!
> 
> No, it's the standard because Daniel said so. And the reasons behind
> which web publishing setup we use have little relation to good reasons
> for a news delivery system.
> 
> Why do you think we still send email in plain text?

Why do you think news is sent as an RSS feed? Answer: Because it has
proven to be the best way!

> *shrug* Anyway, if you want to come up with an alternate GLEP based
> around XML, bittorrent, Java and CORBA, go right ahead.

I never mentioned bittorrent, Java, or CORBA. If you don't have a valid
arguement, please don't try to distract everyone by putting words into
the mouths of those you're arguing with.

> The GLEP system
> is quite happy with handling multiple competing proposals for a given
> topic, and at the end of it we can select the best proposal, reject all
> the proposals or go and come up with a new proposal with bits from
> both.

So if you didn't want people to actually review and comment on *your*
GLEP, why did you write:

"The attached GLEP is a draft proposal for the emerge --news thing
that's been under discussion. There are still some TODO items. These are
calls for people to weigh in with suggestions. Of course, suggestions on
other items are good too..."
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