Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[aitor_czr]

Hi Katolaz,

Here you are an example of two arguments (x,y) passed by reference:

# include 

int main(void)
{

 int i=1;
 int j=2;

 printf( "i = %d  j = %d \n", i,j);

 func(&i, &j);

 printf( "i = %d  j = %d \n", i,j);

 return 0;

}

void func(int *x, int *y)
{
 int k = *x;
 *x = *y;
 *y = k;
}

This is the output:

i = 1  j = 2
i = 2  j = 1

On 12/10/2015 06:33 PM, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote:

On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 05:00:58PM +0100, aitor_czr wrote:

>No, Katolaz, passing by value and passing by reference exist in C,
>at least in C99.
>

Could you please give a pointer to the place where this feature is
documented in the ANSI C99 standard?


Passing by value and passing by reference in ANSI C99 are documented in 
the following book:


C - The Complete Reference (by Herbert Schildt)

Cheers,

  Aitor.
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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[Irrwahn]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 09:01:19 +0100, Aitor Czr wrote:
[...]
> Passing by value and passing by reference in ANSI C99 are documented in the 
> following book:
> 
> C - The Complete Reference (by Herbert Schildt)

Ugh, this explains a lot! Books by Herbert Schildt 
are, sit venia verbo, the most useless utter crap 
you can get. The only thing this book documents is 
the total incompetence of its author. Have a good 
laugh, see https://www.lysator.liu.se/c/schildt.html 
for a post mortem of his infamous "The Annotated ANSI 
C Standard". 

If you want an overall introductory book to C, get 
K&R2, written by someone who understood C, if only 
because he invented the language. :P  If you want an 
authoritative reference, get the ISO standard. Or 
get Plauger's "C Library Reference" as, well, library 
reference. 

Ceterum censeo: There is no pass by reference in C, 
has never been, and will presumably never be. Heck, 
the C standard doesn't mention the concept at all, 
not even in a non-normative foot note!

HTH, HAND
Irrwahn


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Re: [DNG] Netman Communication

[Peter Olson]

> On December 10, 2015 at 7:59 PM Hendrik Boom  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 06:48:16PM -0700, Gregory Nowak wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 12:47:05AM +0100, Patrick Erdmann wrote:
> > > would it be possible to use github comments or a seperate mailing list
> > > for Netman?

[snip]

> I don't see a problem.  I, too, am following the netman stuff, as part 
> of the wider mailing list.  I find it quite refreshing to be able to 
> read everything so easily.

+1

As someone who might eventually be a package developer, I find this this a
helpful source of advice.

Peter Olson
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[DNG] Reference in C -- was Re: Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[Didier Kryn]

Le 11/12/2015 09:01, aitor_czr a écrit :

Hi Katolaz,

Here you are an example of two arguments (x,y) passed by reference:

# include 

int main(void)
{

 int i=1;
 int j=2;

 printf( "i = %d  j = %d \n", i,j);

 func(&i, &j);

 printf( "i = %d  j = %d \n", i,j);

 return 0;

}

void func(int *x, int *y)
{
 int k = *x;
 *x = *y;
 *y = k;
}

This is the output:

i = 1  j = 2
i = 2  j = 1


Aitor, you can tweak the things as you like but the fact is that 
the backbone of the design of the C language is that the API is as close 
as can be to the ABI. In terms of passing the argument, there is no 
other ABI than putting their values in registers and/or in the stack. 
Hence the arguments have the same status, for the called function, as 
automatic and/or register variables. The values they have when the 
function returns is lost.


There is an exception for arrays. Arrays, in C, are not data types; 
the [] notation in a declaration merely allocates a range of memory; the 
same notation in instructions provides essentially another way to write 
pointer arithmetics and the array name itself is treated as a pointer.


Reference is a concept of higher level languages; in addition to 
the address, it caries information about the data type and size. I must 
say the syntax is confusing, when using references, since it is often 
identical wether you use the variable or a refenrence to it. At least it 
is confusing to a C programmer who tends to associate reference and address.


My one cent.

Didier

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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[aitor_czr]

Hi Irrwahn,

Are you referring to Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie?

   Aitor.

On 12/11/2015 10:04 AM, Irrwahn  wrote:

If you want an overall introductory book to C, get
K&R2, written by someone who understood C, if only
because he invented the language. :P  If you want an
authoritative reference, get the ISO standard. Or
get Plauger's "C Library Reference" as, well, library
reference.


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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[aitor_czr]

They wrote the following book:

"The C programming language"

   Aitor.

On 12/11/2015 10:31 AM, aitor_czr wrote:

Hi Irrwahn,

Are you referring to Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie?

   Aitor.

On 12/11/2015 10:04 AM, Irrwahn  wrote:

If you want an overall introductory book to C, get
K&R2, written by someone who understood C, if only
because he invented the language. :P  If you want an
authoritative reference, get the ISO standard. Or
get Plauger's "C Library Reference" as, well, library
reference.


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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[Irrwahn]

[top posting fixed]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:31:08 +0100, Aitor Czr wrote:
> On 12/11/2015 10:04 AM, Irrwahn  wrote:
>> If you want an overall introductory book to C, get 
>> K&R2, written by someone who understood C, if only 
>> because he invented the language. :P  If you want an 
>> authoritative reference, get the ISO standard. Or 
>> get Plauger's "C Library Reference" as, well, library 
>> reference. 
> 
> Hi Irrwahn,
>
> Are you referring to Brian Kernighan and Dennis Ritchie?
>
> Aitor.

Hi Aitor,

well, of course. Maybe I could have written this more 
explicitly. "K&R2" refers to "The C Programming Language" 
by Kernighan and Ritchie (2nd edition).

Irrwahn

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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

aitor_...@gnuinos.org writes:

They wrote the following book:

"The C programming language"


I read both editions in my time and... isn't there anything better yet? The 
book is short and gets to the point, but the code samples are terribly 
happypathish, with weak and unstated pre- and postconditions. Staying on 
the happy path is okay in a python script that is to run once, not so fine 
in a book that aims to teach people a programming language.


And that long long chapter about converting between C type syntax and 
understandable got on my nerves.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[aitor_czr]

Maybe it doesn't deserve a Pulitzer :)

  Aitor.

On 12/11/2015 10:04 AM, Irrwahn  wrote:

Ugh, this explains a lot! Books by Herbert Schildt
are, sit venia verbo, the most useless utter crap
you can get. The only thing this book documents is
the total incompetence of its author. Have a good
laugh, seehttps://www.lysator.liu.se/c/schildt.html  
for a post mortem of his infamous "The Annotated ANSI

C Standard".


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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[Irrwahn]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 09:49:25 +, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> aitor_...@gnuinos.org writes:
>> They wrote the following book:
>>
>> "The C programming language"
> 
> I read both editions in my time and... isn't there anything better yet? The 
> book is short and gets to the point, but the code samples are terribly 
> happypathish, with weak and unstated pre- and postconditions. Staying on 
> the happy path is okay in a python script that is to run once, not so fine 
> in a book that aims to teach people a programming language.
> 
> And that long long chapter about converting between C type syntax and 
> understandable got on my nerves.
> 
> Arnt
> 

Hi Arndt,

there appear to exist surprisingly few correct yet well 
written books on the subject.  I still deem K&R2 as the 
best starting point, provided one has already acquired a 
tiny bit of experience in the programming field.

The C Standard as a reference is a bit clunky, and the 
"standardese" may turn out a bit off-putting at times, 
but in the end it's /the/ normative document.

Then there is "C: A Reference Manual" by Samuel P. Harbison 
and Guy R. Steele, which I personally never used but saw 
it regularly being recommended by experts. And then Plauger's 
library reference I mentioned in another post in this thread.

Just to round it up, there's "C Unleashed" by Richard 
Heathfield et al., and "Numerical Recipes in C" by W. Press 
et al.

Worth keeping bookmarked is the comp.lang.c FAQ: 
  http://c-faq.com/index.html

The Lysator C page has some interesting and still relevant 
resources and links, though it looks a bit dated these days:
  https://www.lysator.liu.se/c/

A lot of the other books I found in shops, on the web, or on 
coworker's shelves regularly sent shivers down my spine after 
flipping through just a few pages. It is almost unbelievable 
how much misinformation can be spread about a conceptually 
very clear language like C. A sharp tool requires sharp people 
to write sharp books about it, I assume. 

HTH, HAND
Irrwahn

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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[Irrwahn]

[top-posting fixed]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 10:59:05 +0100, Aitor Czr wrote:
> On 12/11/2015 10:04 AM, Irrwahn  wrote:
>> Ugh, this explains a lot! Books by Herbert Schildt 
>> are, sit venia verbo, the most useless utter crap 
>> you can get. The only thing this book documents is 
>> the total incompetence of its author. Have a good 
>> laugh, see https://www.lysator.liu.se/c/schildt.html 
>> for a post mortem of his infamous "The Annotated ANSI 
>> C Standard". 
> 
> Maybe it doesn't deserve a Pulitzer :)
>
> Aitor.
>

Not only that. It is wrong and therefore dangerous. If 
you want do delve deeper into the subject of Schildt's 
books and his refusal to correct even his most blatant 
errors, I recommend sifting through the archives of the 
comp.lang.c newsgroup. You can then enjoy reviews of his 
"opus" by people, each of whom easily forgot more about 
C than you and I together can ever hope to know ... ;o)

Irrwahn

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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 09:01:19AM +0100, aitor_czr wrote:
> Hi Katolaz,
> 
> Here you are an example of two arguments (x,y) passed by reference:

[cut]

> 
> void func(int *x, int *y)
> {
>  int k = *x;
>  *x = *y;
>  *y = k;
> }
> 
> This is the output:
> 
> i = 1  j = 2
> i = 2  j = 1
> 

Dear Aitor, 

as many have already explained, this is not passing by reference, but
passing by value. Then it happens that the value is a pointer and, as
I already said in a previous email, this is a mechanism which *mimics*
a pass-by-reference through a pass-by-value. This is not being
pedantic, but calling things with their name, and avoiding
confusion. Pass-by-reference is what is normally used in Java or in
C++ (in the latter case, you have to use the "&" qualifier in the
signature of a function/method to signalling the choice between
pass-by-value and pass-by-reference).

C is one of the few remaining languages which is consistent about
allowing only one of the many possible argument passing
mechanisms. And the mechanism chosen by C is pass-by-value. Fullstop.


> On 12/10/2015 06:33 PM, dng-requ...@lists.dyne.org wrote:
> >On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 05:00:58PM +0100, aitor_czr wrote:
> >>>No, Katolaz, passing by value and passing by reference exist in C,
> >>>at least in C99.
> >>>
> >Could you please give a pointer to the place where this feature is
> >documented in the ANSI C99 standard?
> 
> Passing by value and passing by reference in ANSI C99 are documented
> in the following book:
> 
> C - The Complete Reference (by Herbert Schildt)
> 

Oh dear, that explains a lot. Shitty book, IMHO, quite inaccurate,
full of mistakes and misconceptions, among which pass-by-reference is
just one little example. If you want to get a serious introduction to
C, then you are better off with the classical Kernighan & Ritchie,
which covers only C90, though. A good, competent, and complete
introduction to C99 is given in "C in a Nutshell", Prinz & Crawford,
O'Really (2005). But don't expect an easy read through either of them.

The best advice I have ever received about C is that I must not just
buy "any" book about C and assume it is "the bible" or represents
accurately what C is or is not. Except that book is the K&R.

HND

KatolaZ

-- 
[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
[ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ]
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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[aitor_czr]

Maybe...

Here you are the same program written in both languages:


CASE 1 (C Language):

# include 

void func(int*);

int main(void)
{
  int i=1;
  func(&i);
  printf( "%d", i);
  return 0;
}

void func(int *x)
{
  *x = 2;
}


CASE 2 (C++ Language):

#include 

void func(int &);

int main()
{
 int n = 1;
 func(n);
 std::cout << n;
 return 0;
}

void func(int &x)
{
 x = 2;
}

/  END  /

CASE 1: The argument is not a reference, it's an address.

CASE 2: The argument is a reference

I have several books about C/C++ language (by G. Leblanc, Fco. Charte, 
Javier Ceballos, etc...)


H. Schildt is the only one using this terminology in C.

Cheers,

   Aitor.

On 12/11/2015 10:04 AM, Irrwahn  wrote:

Ceterum censeo: There is no pass by reference in C,
has never been, and will presumably never be. Heck,
the C standard doesn't mention the concept at all,
not even in a non-normative foot note!

HTH, HAND
Irrwahn


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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[aitor_czr]

Of course :-)

On 12/11/2015 12:23 PM, KatolaZ  wrote:

This is not being pedantic, but calling things with their name, and avoiding
confusion.


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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[Irrwahn]

[top-posting fixed]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 12:25:00 +0100, Aitor Czr wrote:
> On 12/11/2015 10:04 AM, Irrwahn  wrote:
>> Ceterum censeo: There is no pass by reference in C,
>> has never been, and will presumably never be. Heck,
>> the C standard doesn't mention the concept at all,
>> not even in a non-normative foot note!

[...]
 
> CASE 1 (C Language):
> 
> # include 
> 
> void func(int*);
> 
> int main(void)
> {
>   int i=1;
>   func(&i);
>   printf( "%d", i);
>   return 0;
> }
> 
> void func(int *x)
> {
>   *x = 2;
> }

[...]

> CASE 1: The argument is not a reference, it's an address.

Indeed. Alternatively you could call it a pointer value (sic!).

[...] 

> I have several books about C/C++ language (by G. Leblanc, Fco. Charte, Javier 
> Ceballos, etc...)

[pedantic mode=full] There is no C/C++ language. Those 
are two distinct languages, looking uncannily similar 
in places. Unfortunately. [pedantic/]

> H. Schildt is the only one using this terminology in C.

Which should tell us /something/, shouldn't it?  ;^)

Irrwahn
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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 11:23:24AM +, KatolaZ wrote:
> 
> C is one of the few remaining languages which is consistent about
> allowing only one of the many possible argument passing
> mechanisms. And the mechanism chosen by C is pass-by-value. Fullstop.

Historical note: it may have picked up this idea from Algol 68.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] Pointer error in the backend of Netman

[Hendrik Boom]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 01:04:18PM +0100, Irrwahn wrote:
> 
> [pedantic mode=full] There is no C/C++ language. Those 
> are two distinct languages, looking uncannily similar 
> in places. Unfortunately. [pedantic/]

Nonetheless, it is possible, and even practical, to write a program 
in the intersection of the two languages.

-- hendrik
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Re: [DNG] busybox

[Rainer Weikusat]

"Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult"  writes:
> On 01.11.2015 14:52, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> It's also strangely schizophrenic as there's no point in zero-filling
>> the entire structure prior to initializing its members one by one
>> which implies zero-filling the larger part of the second one[*]
>> again.
>
> That's called "defensive programming" :p

"Cargo cult programming" would be more appropriate: Mindlessly imitiate
something which made sense in a certain context, based on the assumption
that this will 'magically' 'en-sense' the result.

Initializing a variable twice is useless. 

> Indeed, there might be good reasons for doing so: if you really wanna
> make sure that everything's zero'ed, even those members you dont
> care for.

Since there's no information regarding the intended use of such
(hypothetical) "members one doesn't care for", there's no reason to
assume that "zeroeing them" will be good for anything (and not actually
the opposite of it). 

[...]

>> The code is only correct if the length of the name argument is known
>> to be less than the size of the buffer as strncpy won't insert a
>> zero-byte otherwise, ie, on one hand, this use a size-checking
>> function with fairly byzantine semantics, on the other hand, the code
>> relies on 'knowing' that "/run/foobar.sk" will fit into the buffer
>> while leaving space for a trailing zero. In case the length of the
>> name is unknown, one would usually do something like
>
> In many cases, you dont really know whether the argument fits, so
> you need to check it anyways.

But the code didn't do that (as I explained): It relied on "knowing that
it will fit" for correctness and the length check was just a useless
addition.

Whether or not this happened to be the cause because the author didn't
know any better or because he intentionally intended to obscure the
algorithm is open for speculation.
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Re: [DNG] Debianising my uploaded version of netman.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi Svante,

I think, it is irritating to first having to scroll down text others
have written rather than the text the latest poster has written. If
the latest poster wants his readers to refer to ealier posts, he can
state that in his reply.

I don't consider this netiquitte, but rather, a writing style which
shouldn't be binding to anyone. This should be optional like any
personal preference.

Edward

On 10/12/2015, Svante Signell  wrote:
> On Thu, 2015-12-10 at 23:07 +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> Hi Rainer,
>>
>> Thanks for your help. I will have a deeper look at netman/debian
>> tomorrow. Instead of separating the debianization directory contents ,
>> I can create a debianized netman source tree and an undebianized
>> source tree. That way, users wouldn't need to worry about having to
>> debianize netman. However, I am open to suggestions.
>
> Hi Edward, we all greatly appreciate your work. One thing that has annoyed
> me
> for some time: Please don't top post, it's not proper netiquette, see e.g.
> https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855
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Re: [DNG] Debianising my uploaded version of netman.

[Ron]

On Fri, 11 Dec 2015 19:26:50 +0100
Edward Bartolo  wrote:

> I think, it is irritating to first having to scroll down text others
> have written rather than the text the latest poster has written. If
> the latest poster wants his readers to refer to ealier posts, he can
> state that in his reply.  

That may be linked to your reluctance to bother with trimming the posts you 
reply to.

There is no need to quote the entire original post...
 
Cheers,
 
Ron.
-- 
Death to all fanatics.

   -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org --
 
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Re: [DNG] Debianising my uploaded version of netman.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Edward Bartolo  writes:
> I think, it is irritating to first having to scroll down text others
> have written rather than the text the latest poster has written. If
> the latest poster wants his readers to refer to ealier posts, he can
> state that in his reply.
>
> I don't consider this netiquitte, but rather, a writing style which
> shouldn't be binding to anyone.

"New text on top (mostly irrelevant) previous statements dating back to
the time of ante urbe condita below" is the default mode of operation of
MS Outlook (and possibly other GUI mail programs) but this doesn't make
it a particularly sensible convention for enabling someone to follow a
conversation. "Quote enough context to communicate what you're referring
to, followed by replying to that" is a better idea.

Another good idea would be "attach a reply to the text it's intended to
reply to" instead of to some seemingly randomly chosen other text
possibly written by a different person".
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Re: [DNG] Debianising my uploaded version of netman.

[Harald Arnesen]

Edward Bartolo [2015-12-11 19:26]:

> I think, it is irritating to first having to scroll down text others
> have written rather than the text the latest poster has written. If
> the latest poster wants his readers to refer to ealier posts, he can
> state that in his reply.
> 
> I don't consider this netiquitte, but rather, a writing style which
> shouldn't be binding to anyone. This should be optional like any
> personal preference.

  Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
  > Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
  >> Top-posting.
  >>> What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
-- 
Hilsen Harald
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[DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.

[Gregory Nowak]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 07:26:50PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote:
> I think, it is irritating to first having to scroll down text others
> have written rather than the text the latest poster has written. If
> the latest poster wants his readers to refer to ealier posts, he can
> state that in his reply.

I have to throw in my $0.01 here. First, like Edward, I too prefer top
posting. I have noticed also that top posting seems to be an
overwhelming convention on blindness-related lists. I have seen
instances of bottom posters getting flamed on a blindness-related list
for doing so.

The other opinions stated are also good ones. I don't mind bottom
posting as long as the original message is are trimmed down to
relevant context. I personally can't stand it if we have a message
like:
person a wrote
person b wrote
person c wrote
...
followed by the entire thread from start to finish at the very
bottom. What makes this even worse I think, is if there are new
comments interspersed within that entire long thread. This might
make things easier for those who prefer to read the newest message in the
thread, and skip the rest. On the other hand, there is no guarantee
that the latest message will in fact contain the entire thread. That
means that if a thread is interesting, one needs to read the entire
thread to make sure one didn't miss anything that might be
interesting. Ok, rant over.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] Debianising my uploaded version of netman.

[KatolaZ]

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 06:49:44PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
> Edward Bartolo  writes:
> > I think, it is irritating to first having to scroll down text others
> > have written rather than the text the latest poster has written. If
> > the latest poster wants his readers to refer to ealier posts, he can
> > state that in his reply.
> >
> > I don't consider this netiquitte, but rather, a writing style which
> > shouldn't be binding to anyone.
> 
> "New text on top (mostly irrelevant) previous statements dating back to
> the time of ante urbe condita below" is the default mode of operation of
> MS Outlook (and possibly other GUI mail programs) but this doesn't make
> it a particularly sensible convention for enabling someone to follow a
> conversation. "Quote enough context to communicate what you're referring
> to, followed by replying to that" is a better idea.
> 

The reality is that top-posting is also the standard behaviour of
gmail accounts, which coupled with html content and human laziness
produces one of the least readable and inefficient forms of email
communication. Or at least, this is what an auld auntie like you or me
will feel when reading those emails, my dear Rainer.

Conclusion: we are getting old, and netiquette is not considered
"fancy" any more today :(

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] Debianising my uploaded version of netman.

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi All,

Running dpkg-buildpackage under netman/ produced two .deb packages one
for the gui and one for the CLI backend. I inspected the packages'
content using Xarchiver and confirmed they look to contain what they
should. However, I am no Debian packager and cannot be certain that
the resultant two packages are good for installation.

Edward

On 11/12/2015, KatolaZ  wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 06:49:44PM +, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
>> Edward Bartolo  writes:
>> > I think, it is irritating to first having to scroll down text others
>> > have written rather than the text the latest poster has written. If
>> > the latest poster wants his readers to refer to ealier posts, he can
>> > state that in his reply.
>> >
>> > I don't consider this netiquitte, but rather, a writing style which
>> > shouldn't be binding to anyone.
>>
>> "New text on top (mostly irrelevant) previous statements dating back to
>> the time of ante urbe condita below" is the default mode of operation of
>> MS Outlook (and possibly other GUI mail programs) but this doesn't make
>> it a particularly sensible convention for enabling someone to follow a
>> conversation. "Quote enough context to communicate what you're referring
>> to, followed by replying to that" is a better idea.
>>
>
> The reality is that top-posting is also the standard behaviour of
> gmail accounts, which coupled with html content and human laziness
> produces one of the least readable and inefficient forms of email
> communication. Or at least, this is what an auld auntie like you or me
> will feel when reading those emails, my dear Rainer.
>
> Conclusion: we are getting old, and netiquette is not considered
> "fancy" any more today :(
>
> HND
>
> KatolaZ
>
> --
> [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
> [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
> [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
> [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ]
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Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded version of netman.

[Rainer Weikusat]

Gregory Nowak  writes:
> On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 07:26:50PM +0100, Edward Bartolo wrote:
>> I think, it is irritating to first having to scroll down text others
>> have written rather than the text the latest poster has written. If
>> the latest poster wants his readers to refer to ealier posts, he can
>> state that in his reply.
>
> I have to throw in my $0.01 here. First, like Edward, I too prefer top
> posting. I have noticed also that top posting seems to be an
> overwhelming convention on blindness-related lists.

[more of this]

It's the default behaviour of certain e-mail clients and was already (at
that time) directly opposed to established conventions for communicating
via e-mail. Had Microsoft chosen to split the replied-to text in half
and position the cursor in the middle of it by default, you'd now be
rationalizing that.

I've just accidentally read another of Edward's mails which seemed to be
reply to something I wrote but was actually a comment on something Aitor
wrote god-knows-where. This suggests that another 'default behaviour' is
"client can't do threading based on References" and since "it doesn't
make a difference", people just pick a random text for the list address.

There's a reason why people like to "rant and rave" about how useless/
overly time consuming e-mail conversation happens to be for them and
that's their 'default' refusal to format their messages sensibly. I
decidedly don't want to read all DNG mails of the last - how many days?
30 enough? - just to determine what Aitor wrote so that I understand
Edward's reply to that _without_ already knowing what the referenced
text was. I specifically gave up on trying to write something sensible
to the 'realloc' issue because locating the original message about that
without 'reading the entire threads of the last 16 years' was
impossible.

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[DNG] Have to use "make -C . clean" before dpkg-buildpackage

[Edward Bartolo]

Hi All,

Here is the output that speaks better than my words to describe the
remaining debianization issues with netman.

1) Failing to build package on 'dirty' sources.
edbarx@edbarx-pc:~/netman-0.1.1$ dpkg-buildpackage
dpkg-buildpackage: source package netman
dpkg-buildpackage: source version 0.1.1-1
dpkg-buildpackage: source distribution unstable
dpkg-buildpackage: source changed by Edward 
dpkg-buildpackage: host architecture amd64
 dpkg-source --before-build netman-0.1.1
 fakeroot debian/rules clean
dh clean --with quilt,python2
   dh_testdir
   dh_quilt_unpatch
No patch removed
   dh_clean
 dpkg-source -b netman-0.1.1
dpkg-source: info: using source format `3.0 (quilt)'
dpkg-source: info: building netman using existing ./netman_0.1.1.orig.tar.gz
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/backend.o: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/backend.o in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/backend.ppu: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/backend.ppu in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/common_functions.o: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/common_functions.o in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/common_functions.ppu: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/common_functions.ppu in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/connect_info.o: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/connect_info.o in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/connect_info.ppu: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/connect_info.ppu in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/formeditconnectprops.o: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/formeditconnectprops.o in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/formeditconnectprops.ppu: binary file contents
changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/formeditconnectprops.ppu in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/helpwndu.o: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/helpwndu.o in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/helpwndu.ppu: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/helpwndu.ppu in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/mainform.o: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/mainform.o in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/mainform.ppu: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/mainform.ppu in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/netman.o: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/netman.o in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/netman.or: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/netman.or in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to
lib/x86_64-linux/netman.res: binary file contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add lib/x86_64-linux/netman.res in
debian/source/include-binaries if you want to store the modified
binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: cannot represent change to netman: binary file
contents changed
dpkg-source: error: add netman in debian/source/include-binaries if
you want to store the modified binary in the debian tarball
dpkg-source: error: unrepresentable changes to source
dpkg-buildpackage: error: dpkg-source -b netman-0.1

Re: [DNG] top posting, was: Re: Debianising my uploaded, version of netman.

[aitor_czr...@gnuinos.org]

Dear Rainer,

The code of Herbert Schildt is more understandable :)

   Aitor.

El 11/12/15 20:13, Rainer Weikusat  
escribió:

It's the default behaviour of certain e-mail clients and was already (at
that time) directly opposed to established conventions for communicating
via e-mail. Had Microsoft chosen to split the replied-to text in half
and position the cursor in the middle of it by default, you'd now be
rationalizing that.

I've just accidentally read another of Edward's mails which seemed to be
reply to something I wrote but was actually a comment on something Aitor
wrote god-knows-where. This suggests that another 'default behaviour' is
"client can't do threading based on References" and since "it doesn't
make a difference", people just pick a random text for the list address.

There's a reason why people like to "rant and rave" about how useless/
overly time consuming e-mail conversation happens to be for them and
that's their 'default' refusal to format their messages sensibly. I
decidedly don't want to read all DNG mails of the last - how many days?
30 enough? - just to determine what Aitor wrote so that I understand
Edward's reply to that_without_  already knowing what the referenced
text was. I specifically gave up on trying to write something sensible
to the 'realloc' issue because locating the original message about that
without 'reading the entire threads of the last 16 years' was
impossible.


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Re: [DNG] alternative to raspbian without systemd

[Gregory Nowak]

Hi all,
I'm back with an update on this, and a mini howto. First, thanks to
everyone who provided various suggestions regarding both hardware and
software. I ended up getting a raspberry pi2 b+. I did consider the
bananapi as well. While I like the sata port, there were a few things
where the raspberrypi (rpi) seemed better for me, and that's what I
got. I also did end up getting the serial cable. That turns out to
have been a good move as well, since I wouldn't have been able to do
without it what I'm about to describe below.

I am currently running devuan on my rpi, which I've taken to thinking
of as raspvuan. This is a devuan jessie armhf port installed by debootstrap,
with pi specific packages from raspbian. I originally wanted to see if
I could do this by doing the initial debootstrap on the pc, chrooting
into the unpacked system, and running debootstrap --second-stage to
complete the rest of the process. This didn't work out for me for a
couple of reasons. I started out with a /boot containing kernel and
firmware from raspbian jessie 7.8. I made a fresh ext4 file system on
the second partition of the sd card, mounted it on the pc, and did an
initial debootstrap with the debootstrap from devuan providing armhf
as the arch, and the --foreign option; that went well. I attempted to
then boot from this sd card on the rpi. I got as far as initialized
random pool, and waiting for root fs. This could be for a couple of
reasons. First, I forgot I was trying to boot into a system which was
unpacked, but hadn't been setup yet. Second, I forgot to enable agetty
on ttyAMA0. Third, I forgot to add ttyAMA0 to /etc/securetty. Fourth,
I didn't modify the newly created /etc/shadow (which I'm not even sure
exists at this stage) to remove the * from root's password entry. So,
at that point I realized this would require two sd cards, one with a
running system, and one to do the install on. You could likely use a
usb drive for the install, but you'll then need to get the image off
the usb drive, and on to the sd card. I already had another sd card
with raspbian wheezy on it, so attempted to use that for the running
system, leaving my initial install done on the pc on the second sd
card, which I put into a usb card reader, and attached to the
rpi. When I attempted to chroot, I got something like: cannot chroot
bin/bash execv format error. So, wheezy's kernel must not be fully
compatible with armhf as found in jessie.

With my initial attempts and their failure documented, I'll proceed to
document what to do to get a raspvuan jessie minimal install on the
rpi2. You will need:
1. A micro sd card with a freshly written raspbian jessie image. You
can find that at: .

2. A second blank micro sd card in a usb card reader. Like I said, you
can probably use a usb drive instead, but you'll need to transfer the
image off it after you're done.

3. A rpi connected to the internet. I don't have a linux-compatible
wifi usb card here, so used an ethernet cable.

4. Usb keyboard and screen, or an appropriate pl2303 usb serial cable
between the rpi, and computer. I used the serial console.

5. The rpi itself, and a power supply.


Insert your sd card with raspbian jessie into the rpi, plug in your
usb reader with the second sd card into the rpi, make whatever other
connections you need, and apply power to the rpi. Once the rpi boots,
login as pi with raspberry as the password. Become root: $ sudo bash
Create your partitions. I use cfdisk for this: # cfdisk


Label: dos, identifier: 0xe786f943

Device   Boot   StartEndSectorsSize   Id
Type
/dev/sda12048 104447 102400 50Mc
W95 FAT32 (LBA)
>>  /dev/sda2  10444822015992097152  1G   83
Linux


You can of course make the partitions whatever size you'd
like. Reboot. I found out the hard way that partition changes on the
rpi don't seem to stick until a reboot is done.
# reboot
Log back in, and sudo bash.
format your file systems: # mkfs.msdos /dev/sda1
# mkfs.ext4 /dev/sda2
Mount the root fs: # mount /dev/sda2 /mnt
get and install devuan's debootstrap:
# wget
http://packages.devuan.org/devuan/pool/main/d/debootstrap/debootstrap_1.0.75-1%2bdevuan1_all.deb
# dpkg -i debootstrap_1.0.75-1+devuan1_all.deb

Let's debootstrap our new system:
# debootstrap jessie /mnt http://packages.devuan.org/merged

Watch it download/extract, or go do something else. Once the base
system installs successfully, mount remaining file systems:

# mount /dev/sda1 /mnt/boot
# mount --bind /proc /mnt/proc
# mount --bind /sys /mnt/sys
# mount --bind /dev /mnt/dev

Copy over some needed files:
# cp -a /boot/config.txt /mnt/boot/
# cp -a /boot/cmdline.txt /mnt/boot/
# cp -a /etc/fstab /mnt/etc/
# cp -a /etc/apt/sources.list.d/raspi.list
/mnt/etc/apt/sources.list.d/

I like the suggestion dev1fanboy gave in his devuan upgrade howto on
running lean (especially on embedded devices), so:
# echo 'A