Re: [Dng] Logind alternative (spoiler: Consolekit fork)
On Tue, 2015-02-24 at 22:49 +0100, Oz Tiram wrote: > Hi Everyone, > > > > I was getting desparate thinking there will be no alternative to > systemd's logind. > > I also saw the consolekit was depreciated for quite a while. Alas! I > was happy to > > find this just now: > > https://github.com/ConsoleKit2/ConsoleKit2 > > > I would be happy to see this packaged for devuan. I can take a look at packaging consolekit2 for devuan if nobody is already doing this, or it has been done before. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 01:55:02AM +, Isaac Dunham wrote: > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 07:10:59PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:27:23 -0500 > > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 09:57:29AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > > > If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the Devuan > > > > mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been pleasantly > > > > surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting everything. > > > > > > Does that meerly reflect how systemd is dearchitecting everything? > > > Or are there things being rearchitected that aren't systemd issues? > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > Well, first of all, understand the only Devuan I've run is Valentines, > > and I didn't peer too deeply under the hood. My opinions come from > > things the Devuan Developers say on this list. I've seen a replacement > > for udev which, if I'm not mistaken, can simply be substituted for udev > > or eudev. > > As far as I can tell, nothing's available *yet* that can *simply* > be substituted for (e)udev. As I understand it, it's necessary to replace udev -- but is it necessary to replace eudev? -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] FreeBSD, etc
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 10:26:35AM +0800, Robert Storey wrote: > > Of course, what I really want to see is that Devuan is a big success, so > that I won't need a Plan B (even though it's always a good idea to have > one). It's always good to have a plan B. The biggest benefit is often that if gives you confidence to proceed with plan A. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] idea for discussion: why 1 dbus [long e-mail]
Well, I have an idea for a discussion about "re-architecting" Linux, however it is very likely that this is just my lack of understanding speaking: I am aware that task #1 is providing Devuan Jessie (without systemd), and that is already enough work. Personally I consider task #2 to do a little discovery and documenting of what kinds of "middle-ware" I have on my Linux box and how it all interacts (things like: what is akonadi/nepomuk/colord/avahi and do I need all of that). So I have a weird question for discussion, to study the *design* of dbus together on this mailinglist with you lot who are probably a lot smarter than me. Please be gentle and provide arguments if you think I'm talking crap :-) Why is there 1 dbus program (instead of 2 or 3)? I have not looked at the source, but from the freedesktop.org documentation I learned that dbus is responsible for the following tasks in modern user-space Linux: 1. IPC between user programs in a GUI user session context (dbus --session) 2. one-way system -> GUI session notification of events (dbus --system), e.g. when a USB stick is inserted 3. one-way GUI session -> system root-privilege system commands (dbus --system), e.g. suspend, shutdown, reboot From my naïve (and slightly wary) point of view, these tasks are all very important, but not of the same *nature*. For example, why is there no watershed between two different services, call them dbus_session and dbus_system, where: - dbus_session will open a UNIX type socket /var/run/session///dbus (/var/run/session/ is -rwx--), all the user's programs have equivalent security access to this, so there is no need for crypto and security in dbus_session at all (simplifies), very fast and useful for IPC, cut-and-paste etc. This program needs to be fast because it performs tasks that happen often, e.g. copy-paste of a large photo from gimp to e-mail. Doesn't X11 have some really crappy IPC implementation already, and doesn't it use /tmp/.X11-unix/X0 UNIX type socket? - dbus_system_notification: I don't know why this must be secure. On the one hand, you might want to limit transmitting sensitive information to all users of the computer (e.g. "somebody put DVD "The Sound of Music" into DVD drive 8"), but on the other hand, how are you going to distinguish which users or even user sessions are allowed and which are not allowed to discover this information? Anyway, my naïve idea is why not read "man 7 unix" carefully and have some kind of group that is allowed to connect to this "event subscription" socket, and somehow grant those users who are actually logged in on the console or local X11 session, temporary membership of that group? (I have not tried this myself, can you tell?) These things probably are of a "publish-subscribe" nature so a message bus makes sense, I guess. But then a message bus where only root can write to it and the subscribers can only listen to it. Maybe this is best done with an UDP INET type socket? (I don't actually know if you can do connectionless or no-timeout one-to-many stuff over an UNIX socket) I suspect that the amount of data sent is really small and will fit into 1 packet, but latency might be a nuisance. - dbus_system_command: must be highly secure. I haven't thought as much about this one. It is silly to use crypto to talk to it over a systemwide open socket, because that means you have an instant privilege escalation problem on fast machines: a hacker can break into e.g. lpd account, and do a brute force attack via the dbus system bus to shut down the system, change the hostname, date, or whatever. The only protection is that the correct bitstream sent to the dbus daemon needs to be guessed. I suspect that all of these tasks are security-critical but not time-critical, i.e. a shutdown command doesn't matter if it takes a whole second but it does matter that a student doesn't shut down the workstation where another student is running a 3 month long quantum chemical calculation (this kind of shit happens in workstation-land, believe me). Why does this need to be a complicated and error prone message bus? Why not just an executable? Describe it for the LSB and be done with it: dbus_system shutdown = shutdown, dbus_system powersave = order the CPU to slow down, etc. If you have read all this, a 10 for effort! :-) Frits ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Devuan Logo survey
Hi people, As you may know, we have been collecting logo proposals for Devuan in the Without Systemd Wiki: http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Logo Now I have created a new (more graphical) survey, to give a vote to your favorite logo: https://surveymonkey.com/s/Q7HV9GZ Remember this is not an authoritative poll and intends to help the design team to make a choice on what we have at present. This is important because: 1- we cannot trust 100% the survey tools; and 2- we have decided to not select things by majority voting, but by a specialized workgroup. Greetings, Emiliano. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Logind alternative (spoiler: Consolekit fork)
ConsoleKit2 was already packages by Max, but we don't need it in the Jessie cycle because the logind dependency was dropped from all packages. In the future - yes, I think we should invest in ConsoleKit2 and add a logind compatibility API to it, as most of logind's D-Bus methods have ConsoleKit2 equivalents. On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 09:20:33 +0100 Svante Signell wrote: > On Tue, 2015-02-24 at 22:49 +0100, Oz Tiram wrote: > > Hi Everyone, > > > > > > > > I was getting desparate thinking there will be no alternative to > > systemd's logind. > > > > I also saw the consolekit was depreciated for quite a while. Alas! I > > was happy to > > > > find this just now: > > > > https://github.com/ConsoleKit2/ConsoleKit2 > > > > > > I would be happy to see this packaged for devuan. > > I can take a look at packaging consolekit2 for devuan if nobody is > already doing this, or it has been done before. > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Dima Krasner, dimakrasner.com pgpYx7ranYKet.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] idea for discussion: why 1 dbus [long e-mail]
* On 2015 25 Feb 10:03 -0600, Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > Personally I consider task #2 to do a little discovery and documenting of > what kinds of "middle-ware" I have on my Linux box and how it all interacts > (things like: what is akonadi/nepomuk/colord/avahi and do I need all of > that). Unless one is running KDE (whatever they call it these days), akonadi/nepomuk are not an issue. colord is billed as a means to manage color profiles--it is not installed on my Sid box although libcolord2 is installed to satisfy a dependency by libgtk-3-0. avahi implements a server for mdns, AIUI, and is needed by Pulse Audio to move sound over the network, for one example. > So I have a weird question for discussion, to study the *design* of dbus > together on this mailinglist with you lot who are probably a lot smarter > than me. > > Please be gentle and provide arguments if you think I'm talking crap :-) > > > Why is there 1 dbus program (instead of 2 or 3)? > Most likely because it has mostly been restrained to its problem domain and no one has been troubled enough by it to reimplement a replacement. After this I don't know enough to comment further but I find your thoughts interesting. - Nate -- "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 08:24:56 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 01:55:02AM +, Isaac Dunham wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 07:10:59PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > On Tue, 24 Feb 2015 10:27:23 -0500 > > > Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > > > > On Tue, Feb 24, 2015 at 09:57:29AM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > > > > > > If you're talking about Devuan, yes, it is! I got on the > > > > > Devuan mailing list just to escape systemd, and have been > > > > > pleasantly surprised by how Devuan is re-architecting > > > > > everything. > > > > > > > > Does that meerly reflect how systemd is dearchitecting > > > > everything? Or are there things being rearchitected that aren't > > > > systemd issues? > > > > > > > > -- hendrik > > > > > > Well, first of all, understand the only Devuan I've run is > > > Valentines, and I didn't peer too deeply under the hood. My > > > opinions come from things the Devuan Developers say on this list. > > > I've seen a replacement for udev which, if I'm not mistaken, can > > > simply be substituted for udev or eudev. > > > > As far as I can tell, nothing's available *yet* that can *simply* > > be substituted for (e)udev. > > As I understand it, it's necessary to replace udev -- but is it > necessary to replace eudev? > > -- hendrik I understood that both vdev and eudev are aftermarket replacements for udev, and the three can bolt-in replace each other for the purposes of getting devices initialized, though only udev does us the "favor" of linking to systemd. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Combatting revisionist history
This excellent analysis of the systemd debacle was just posted over on FDN. Should be required reading IMO. Enjoy! http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=570371 golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
Hello Emiliano, I like the Stylized Galaxy logo (the 2 blue boomerangs forming a flipped S letter). But there is no corresponding "logo with text/font" (on the next page). It would look strange if the main logo and the "logo with text/font" do not match. Kind regards, Anto ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
On Wed, 2015-02-25 at 13:11 -0800, Go Linux wrote: > This excellent analysis of the systemd debacle was just posted over on FDN. > Should be required reading IMO. Enjoy! > > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=570371 > > golinux > I must respectfully disagree. I find the analysis to be very biased toward one side of the discussion, as well as creating their own definitions to fit their side. If something replaces init, it is by definition "an init system". Whether it does more or less than the previous init is immaterial to that simple fact. What I find interesting about the whole affair is that for all the arguments for and against systemd, no one seems to really bring out the one argument that really makes a difference. All of Unix follows POSIX in some major measure. The init system is not covered by the POSIX standard. There have been other replacements for init in the past. The fact that Linux is going through this particular "growing pain" that other Unixes already have is nothing new and certainly not the end of the world. Devuan is proof of that diversity can exist and should. So is Gentoo and some others out there. If I had to point the finger at Linux's greatest failing, it is the expectation that users want others to do all of the work compiling and packaging and then they want to complain that that someone else made a choice that they didn't like. I consider it tantamount to childish whining. The code is there. If you don't like it, fix it. That's one reason why I like Devuan. Devuan doesn't just talk, Devuan does something about it. T.J. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
>> This excellent analysis of the systemd debacle was just posted over on FDN. >> Should be required reading IMO. Enjoy! >> >> http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=570371 > If something replaces init, it is by definition "an init system". > Whether it does more or less than the previous init is immaterial to > that simple fact. It does so much more than just the init system . . . everyday more userspace features are gobbled by systemd . . . The more time passes, the more I agree with this post, the init process is now just one feature, the one ring needed to eat them all . . . with time this looks more and more like a systemd-linux OS, than a gnu/linux OS > What I find interesting about the whole affair is that for all the > arguments for and against systemd, no one seems to really bring out the > one argument that really makes a difference. All of Unix follows POSIX > in some major measure. The init system is not covered by the POSIX > standard. concerning posix, afaik theres a problem at the libc level , libc is posix and glibc is much more than posix, systemd pushes even more glibc as the new standard against posix, afaik you wont be able to run systemd on a non glibc based system, like the uclibc gentoo stages, thats one more endangered alternative ( not using glibc ). with time this looks more and more like a redhat-glibc-systemd-linux than a gnu/linux OS > There have been other replacements for init in the past. The fact that > Linux is going through this particular "growing pain" that other Unixes > already have is nothing new and certainly not the end of the world. how many replacement to the init system have slowly eaten allthe userspace features, like logind, syslog, pam and so many others ? > Devuan is proof of that diversity can exist and should. So is Gentoo > and some others out there. sure > If I had to point the finger at Linux's greatest failing, it is the > expectation that users want others to do all of the work compiling and > packaging and then they want to complain that that someone else made a > choice that they didn't like. well i wont say that as a gentoo user ;) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
[Sorry Gravis, I could find no shorter way to say this] On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 15:49:34 -0600 "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > On Wed, 2015-02-25 at 13:11 -0800, Go Linux wrote: > > This excellent analysis of the systemd debacle was just posted over > > on FDN. Should be required reading IMO. Enjoy! > > > > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=570371 > > > > golinux > > > I must respectfully disagree. I find the analysis to be very biased > toward one side of the discussion, And the author tells us that. Now I'd like you to admit that you're very biased toward the other side of the discussion. I'm proud to say that I'm biased in the same direction as the author. So is the vast majority of this mailing list, whose project was created in order to choose one's init system without trashing the entire OS. > as well as creating their own > definitions to fit their side. > > If something replaces init, it is by definition "an init system". So then, if I replace your car's radio by replacing the whole car, it is by definition a "car radio"? > Whether it does more or less than the previous init is immaterial to > that simple fact. I find no credible element of truth in the preceding sentence. But anyway, disregarding the definition of "init system", the author is dead bang right on: * Debian isn't other distros * no one—has ever articulated a value proposition for systemd that adequately addresses its implementation costs. About "Debian isn't other distros", he characterized the situation exactly right, plus the fact that when Debian moved, all the Debian descendents moved with it (except a couple that were born to exclude systemd, like DNG). And, his assertion was even more right back in September, when many of the brains behind DNG were helping out with Debian. About value proposition vs cost: 90% of the value ennunciated by systemd fans boil down to "it boots faster", because any benefit achieved by socket activation and the like could be simulated by strategically placed sleep statements in any other init. And keep in mind that if boot speed and reliability are truly important to one, one would be unlikely to start the number and type of services that would be problematic to boot speed. AND, although I've gotten systemd to boot in 4 seconds on a spinning platter, it took 30 seconds after that to get into the Desktop Environment, because a lot of boot tasks including networking happened in the desktop environment. AND, I got Epoch to boot in 7 seconds, and runit to boot in 11 seconds, on the same hardware, and they both took less time to get to the GUI. The other 8% have to do with making the GUI responsive to changes in the system, and vice versa. Nice, but not essential, and not worth a 15 major component monolith tied together with thick, not well documented interfaces. Not only that, but there are plenty of other ways to get that feature without gumming up the system by eliminating advantages of interchangeable parts. That leaves the 2% benefit of cgroups, whose benefit boils down to, when all the bullfeathers are removed, reaping zombies. Zombies were an irritation to all of us, but we've lived with them for 15 years, and their removal certainly doesn't justify a software V'ger. SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] [philosophy] KISS, roots linux and the logo WAS Re: Dng Digest, Vol 5, Issue 11
>> its a general philosophy of design and openness > FYI, I'm busy on such a topic for my Ph.D dissertation and will be happy > to share the results once finished. and I ll be happy to read and comment ;) >> > it is more about principles. Let's list some: >> > >> > - freedom of choice, >> > - interchangealility of solutions to a given need, >> > - reduce inter-dependencies to the strict minimum >> I keep those 3 for my idea of a "roots linux" foundation > let me recommend you use the term GNU/Linux. Probably even more than the > Linux kernel development, it is the GNU project that kept alive such > principles of design in user-space. yes you are rigt and I know it; i ve been trying to say gnu/inux for years, but not everything is gnu on this linux system . . . perhaps I should say FOSS/linux or libre/linux . . .or, well, now its going to be systemd-linux . . . > also please consider the Dyne.org foundation as an ally in your quest to > start a new foundation, or perhaps as an existing device you can use to > bring forward the activities you intend to promote with your idea of a > foundation. > Managing an institutional shell for free software projects is an effort > that can well be shared, if transparence on intentions and coincidence > of ideals is there. for now its just an idea I have, something I feel logical and necessary , trying to gather the people from devuan, from gentoo, from eudev, mdev, consolekit2, trios, trinity and probably many more projects. > If you like to share, I'd be interested in knowing what you envision > would be the activities such a foundation should carry on. Even when > talking about philosophy and design I think it is very important to > bring examples and concrete projects that are vectors for people's > action. as I said its just an idea i want to share, hoping that more people will think its something that could be useful for the good cause. at the very least, i think the goal and activities of this possible foundation should be : * trying to help funding necessary developments, through sponsors and donations * trying to get people from different projects to work together on the necessary alternatives, trying to gather efforts one one udev alternative ( eudev ? ) , on one logind atlternative ( consolekit2 ? ), on one init system alternative ( openrc ? ) * trying to better define the goals and philosophy we defend ( I d say kiss, architecture allowing alternatives most everywhere, one small brick doing only one thing but doing well, easy to understand and customize stuff, what else ? ) once again those are just personal ideas, the foundation could be whatever people think could be useful or necessary for the cause, i dont even plan to make this foundation myself, I just want people to think of it ;) > >> great idea, KISS is a short and simple word that could summarize most >> of the important ideas, a kiss, for you, from the roots of linux >> could be an idea for a logo ! > > I guess this isn't the best way to introduce Devuan to the public: its a > bit too pretextuous to incarnate the roots of the Linux kernel > development. well we could say the roots of UNIX. Once again, i have to admin when i say linux, i dont think of the kernel, but as the whole system the is a new unix, i say linux like you could say solaris or aix > We are still struggling to produce an alpha and I wish our > communication reflects the current phase of the progress rather than > more ideals than those we already stated in the public and that also > raised some educated skepticism and criticism as they weren't yet based > on concrete achievements. agreed, i m anxiously waiting for a beta to try and test on my thinkpad laptop, after that i plan to contribute by maintaining a grsec kernel. > Said that, I hope this message does not discourage you, but helps > channel the enthusiasm in good productive ways. not at all, intelligent criticism is always welcome, and anyway . . .even insults cant discourage me when I think something is fair/rightful/needed ;) but once again its just an idea i want to share, hoping other people will be interested. > > ciao > > -- > Jaromil, Dyne.org Free Software Foundry (est. 2000) > We are free to share code and we code to share freedom > Web: https://j.dyne.org Contact: https://j.dyne.org/c.vcf > GPG: 6113 D89C A825 C5CE DD02 C872 73B3 5DA5 4ACB 7D10 > Confidential communications: https://keybase.io/jaromil > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 17:05:44 -0500 Neo Futur wrote: > > If I had to point the finger at Linux's greatest failing, it is the > > expectation that users want others to do all of the work compiling > > and packaging and then they want to complain that that someone else > > made a choice that they didn't like. > well i wont say that as a gentoo user ;) I'd like to take a crack at this. If somebody builds me a house to live in, I have no business criticizing the house. I can move in or not. Contrast the preceding with this: Somebody built me the house, and I moved in. I like the house. Several years later, a group partially comprised of the same group that built the house reduce the roof's slope to the point where rain blows under the shingles and leaks all over my possessions. I'm definitely going to tell them "don't break my house!" I'm going to yell "don't break my house" very loudly. And if they continue to, because they can, I'll either find ways, that they can't touch, to waterproof the house (runit, Epoch, wpa_supplicant), or move to a house they can't touch (DNG). Instructing them how to build the house is pure, lazy ingratitude. Telling them not to break what already is built is a good thing. If they want to destroy things, they shouldn't call it "work". SteveT Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey
On Wed, 2/25/15, Linuxito wrote: > Subject: [Dng] Devuan Logo survey > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Date: Wednesday, February 25, 2015, 10:10 AM > > Hi people, > > As you may know, we have been collecting logo proposals for > Devuan in the Without Systemd Wiki: > > http://without-systemd.org/wiki/index.php/Category:Logo > > Now I have created a new (more graphical) survey, to give a > vote to your favorite logo: > > https://surveymonkey.com/s/Q7HV9GZ > > Remember this is not an authoritative poll and intends to > help the design team to make a choice on what we have at > present. > > This is important because: 1- we cannot trust 100% the > survey tools; and 2- we have decided to not select things by > majority voting, but by a specialized workgroup. > > Greetings, > Emiliano. Thanks for setting this up. Is there a URL where we can see the results in real time? golinux ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
> That leaves the 2% benefit of cgroups, whose benefit boils down to, > when all the bullfeathers are removed, reaping zombies. Zombies were an > irritation to all of us, but we've lived with them for 15 years, and > their removal certainly doesn't justify a software V'ger. there is a bit more to cgroups than that but there is no reason another init manager can't perform the same task without becoming The Blob. --Gravis On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > [Sorry Gravis, I could find no shorter way to say this] > > > On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 15:49:34 -0600 > "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > > > On Wed, 2015-02-25 at 13:11 -0800, Go Linux wrote: > > > This excellent analysis of the systemd debacle was just posted over > > > on FDN. Should be required reading IMO. Enjoy! > > > > > > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=570371 > > > > > > golinux > > > > > I must respectfully disagree. I find the analysis to be very biased > > toward one side of the discussion, > > And the author tells us that. Now I'd like you to admit that you're > very biased toward the other side of the discussion. I'm proud to say > that I'm biased in the same direction as the author. So is the vast > majority of this mailing list, whose project was created in order to > choose one's init system without trashing the entire OS. > > > as well as creating their own > > definitions to fit their side. > > > > If something replaces init, it is by definition "an init system". > > So then, if I replace your car's radio by replacing the whole car, it > is by definition a "car radio"? > > > Whether it does more or less than the previous init is immaterial to > > that simple fact. > > I find no credible element of truth in the preceding sentence. But > anyway, disregarding the definition of "init system", the author is > dead bang right on: > > * Debian isn't other distros > * no one—has ever articulated a value proposition for systemd that > adequately addresses its implementation costs. > > About "Debian isn't other distros", he characterized the situation > exactly right, plus the fact that when Debian moved, all the Debian > descendents moved with it (except a couple that were born to exclude > systemd, like DNG). And, his assertion was even more right back in > September, when many of the brains behind DNG were helping out with > Debian. > > About value proposition vs cost: 90% of the value ennunciated by > systemd fans boil down to "it boots faster", because any benefit > achieved by socket activation and the like could be simulated by > strategically placed sleep statements in any other init. And keep in > mind that if boot speed and reliability are truly important to one, one > would be unlikely to start the number and type of services that would > be problematic to boot speed. AND, although I've gotten systemd to boot > in 4 seconds on a spinning platter, it took 30 seconds after that to > get into the Desktop Environment, because a lot of boot tasks including > networking happened in the desktop environment. AND, I got Epoch to > boot in 7 seconds, and runit to boot in 11 seconds, on the same > hardware, and they both took less time to get to the GUI. > > The other 8% have to do with making the GUI responsive to changes in > the system, and vice versa. Nice, but not essential, and not worth a 15 > major component monolith tied together with thick, not well documented > interfaces. Not only that, but there are plenty of other ways to get > that feature without gumming up the system by eliminating advantages of > interchangeable parts. > > That leaves the 2% benefit of cgroups, whose benefit boils down to, > when all the bullfeathers are removed, reaping zombies. Zombies were an > irritation to all of us, but we've lived with them for 15 years, and > their removal certainly doesn't justify a software V'ger. > > SteveT > > Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ > Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
>> That leaves the 2% benefit of cgroups, whose benefit boils down to, and anyway openrc supports cgroups ;) ( my 2 cents : and should be used in future versions of devuan ;) >> when all the bullfeathers are removed, reaping zombies. Zombies were an >> irritation to all of us, but we've lived with them for 15 years, and >> their removal certainly doesn't justify a software V'ger. > > there is a bit more to cgroups than that but there is no reason another init > manager can't perform the same task without becoming The Blob. > > --Gravis > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 5:17 PM, Steve Litt > wrote: >> >> [Sorry Gravis, I could find no shorter way to say this] >> >> >> On Wed, 25 Feb 2015 15:49:34 -0600 >> "T.J. Duchene" wrote: >> >> > On Wed, 2015-02-25 at 13:11 -0800, Go Linux wrote: >> > > This excellent analysis of the systemd debacle was just posted over >> > > on FDN. Should be required reading IMO. Enjoy! >> > > >> > > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=570371 >> > > >> > > golinux >> > > >> > I must respectfully disagree. I find the analysis to be very biased >> > toward one side of the discussion, >> >> And the author tells us that. Now I'd like you to admit that you're >> very biased toward the other side of the discussion. I'm proud to say >> that I'm biased in the same direction as the author. So is the vast >> majority of this mailing list, whose project was created in order to >> choose one's init system without trashing the entire OS. >> >> > as well as creating their own >> > definitions to fit their side. >> > >> > If something replaces init, it is by definition "an init system". >> >> So then, if I replace your car's radio by replacing the whole car, it >> is by definition a "car radio"? >> >> > Whether it does more or less than the previous init is immaterial to >> > that simple fact. >> >> I find no credible element of truth in the preceding sentence. But >> anyway, disregarding the definition of "init system", the author is >> dead bang right on: >> >> * Debian isn't other distros >> * no one—has ever articulated a value proposition for systemd that >> adequately addresses its implementation costs. >> >> About "Debian isn't other distros", he characterized the situation >> exactly right, plus the fact that when Debian moved, all the Debian >> descendents moved with it (except a couple that were born to exclude >> systemd, like DNG). And, his assertion was even more right back in >> September, when many of the brains behind DNG were helping out with >> Debian. >> >> About value proposition vs cost: 90% of the value ennunciated by >> systemd fans boil down to "it boots faster", because any benefit >> achieved by socket activation and the like could be simulated by >> strategically placed sleep statements in any other init. And keep in >> mind that if boot speed and reliability are truly important to one, one >> would be unlikely to start the number and type of services that would >> be problematic to boot speed. AND, although I've gotten systemd to boot >> in 4 seconds on a spinning platter, it took 30 seconds after that to >> get into the Desktop Environment, because a lot of boot tasks including >> networking happened in the desktop environment. AND, I got Epoch to >> boot in 7 seconds, and runit to boot in 11 seconds, on the same >> hardware, and they both took less time to get to the GUI. >> >> The other 8% have to do with making the GUI responsive to changes in >> the system, and vice versa. Nice, but not essential, and not worth a 15 >> major component monolith tied together with thick, not well documented >> interfaces. Not only that, but there are plenty of other ways to get >> that feature without gumming up the system by eliminating advantages of >> interchangeable parts. >> >> That leaves the 2% benefit of cgroups, whose benefit boils down to, >> when all the bullfeathers are removed, reaping zombies. Zombies were an >> irritation to all of us, but we've lived with them for 15 years, and >> their removal certainly doesn't justify a software V'ger. >> >> SteveT >> >> Steve Litt* http://www.troubleshooters.com/ >> Troubleshooting Training * Human Performance >> >> ___ >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] Kicking the tires on Valentine release
Finally got around to seriously poking around with the Valintines Alpha release. Very alpha. Tried a default and an expert mode install, neither prompts for a root password and even if the option to create a user account is picked no prompts to actually do it appear. So I just did the basic install and rebooted rescue mode. A generic devuan user is present, no idea of the password so I set one for both it and root. On first login XFCE asks what I want for a panel config, I tell it one and it makes a totally empty one. I can manually add in a launcher, window switcher and notification area but this isn't looking encouraging. Installed into a vm with QXL for video, X sees that and looks like it is using it, but video performance is lousy. The install media is showing an icon on the desktop but it won't mount if clicked, permissions problem some sort, says "Not authorized to perform operation." /dev/sr0 is owned root:cdrom and the default devuan user is a member of cdrom so it isn't apparent what is going amok. Libreoffice is half installed, the base app launcher is present but none of the actual programs. No browser either. Didn't see any devuan readme or anything documenting any of these bugs. Added in the debian jessie repo and installed iceweasel and put MATE on the system. It can't mount the CD either, same error. On the other hand most problems were fixable and process 1 is init so Winning! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kicking the tires on Valentine release
On 02/26/15 00:01, John Morris wrote: > > A generic devuan user is present, no idea of the > password so I set one for both it and root. > *** I brute-forced it: my first attempt was 'devuan' and worked ;o) I'm impressed by all the testing you did. You may want to open some issues in the gitlab. That would make a good test suite for the next ISO. https://git.devuan.org/devuan/devuan-project/issues (there's a "Datalove Pre-Release" milestone) == hk -- _ _ We are free to share code and we code to share freedom (_X_)yne Foundation, Free Culture Foundry * https://www.dyne.org/donate/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kicking the tires on Valentine release
On Thu, 2015-02-26 at 00:08 -0300, hellekin wrote: > I'm impressed by all the testing you did. You may want to open some > issues in the gitlab. That would make a good test suite for the next ISO. Probably need to go get a Debian jessie cd and see how many of these problems exist there too. Doubt there is much to be done for X performance for example, doubt that is a devuan problem. Also just another problem, can't shutdown. Shutdown in a session just logs out and all of the shutdown, reboot, suspend, etc. options are greyed out in lightdm. Login as root and 'shutdown -h now' does work at least. But the login also showed a systemd-logind error about consolekit. Yanking this turd out by the roots is going to be difficult. And it will get worse monthly. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[Dng] A New Video and Text I came across.
Not mine. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYpnbbONrKw Clarke ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kicking the tires on Valentine release
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 09:35:41PM -0600, John Morris wrote: > > Also just another problem, can't shutdown. Shutdown in a session just > logs out and all of the shutdown, reboot, suspend, etc. options are > greyed out in lightdm. Login as root and 'shutdown -h now' does work at > least. But the login also showed a systemd-logind error about > consolekit. Yanking this turd out by the roots is going to be > difficult. And it will get worse monthly. I have the same problem running Debian Jessie on my laptop. A few months ago all these items became greyed out and inoperative. Pressing the power button, though, instead of just turning off the power, started a proper shutdown. -- hendrik ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kicking the tires on Valentine release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 On 02/25/2015 11:10 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 09:35:41PM -0600, John Morris wrote: >> >> Also just another problem, can't shutdown. Shutdown in a session just >> logs out and all of the shutdown, reboot, suspend, etc. options are >> greyed out in lightdm. Login as root and 'shutdown -h now' does work at >> least. But the login also showed a systemd-logind error about >> consolekit. Yanking this turd out by the roots is going to be >> difficult. And it will get worse monthly. > > I have the same problem running Debian Jessie on my laptop. A few > months ago all these items became greyed out and inoperative. Pressing > the power button, though, instead of just turning off the power, > started a proper shutdown. > > -- hendrik Try wdm. WINGs Display Manager Not sure if its still available for Debian, I compile from source on FreeBSD and would also do so on Debian but lightdm on wheezy seems to be fine. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v2.0.19 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iF4EAREIAAYFAlTuoJkACgkQpY/BHpBmP2qUqwD9Fok+EsFBTMw3IC7WjA4IJzdF Jz2Ldhz1G2DomxqKykAA+gLLYXHUG+FYsXQyNdxIUBsoH+BqcMmv7IN3cZxpwA4k =nb28 -END PGP SIGNATURE- ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] idea for discussion: why 1 dbus [long e-mail]
I personally think dbus is largely a wheel re-invented--not necessarily due to incompetence on its developers' parts, mind you, but more due to mission and scope creep over the past 12 years. If inter-process communication could be done all over again from scratch, knowing what we use dbus for these days, we'd probably be using FUSE or 9P or loopback NFS or some other filesystem-like mechanism. Dbus objects and methods are already organized into a directory hierarchy, and it implements its own permissions and authentication mechanisms for controlling access from other processes. With a bit of refactoring, I'll bet most dbus-speaking applications could be turned into userspace API filesystems with little modification to their core logic (kind of like how Plan 9 processes have their own private filesystems). -Jude On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 12:21 PM, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2015 25 Feb 10:03 -0600, Godefridus Daalmans wrote: > > Personally I consider task #2 to do a little discovery and documenting of > > what kinds of "middle-ware" I have on my Linux box and how it all > interacts > > (things like: what is akonadi/nepomuk/colord/avahi and do I need all of > > that). > > Unless one is running KDE (whatever they call it these days), > akonadi/nepomuk are not an issue. colord is billed as a means to manage > color profiles--it is not installed on my Sid box although libcolord2 is > installed to satisfy a dependency by libgtk-3-0. avahi implements a > server for mdns, AIUI, and is needed by Pulse Audio to move sound over > the network, for one example. > > > So I have a weird question for discussion, to study the *design* of dbus > > together on this mailinglist with you lot who are probably a lot smarter > > than me. > > > > Please be gentle and provide arguments if you think I'm talking crap :-) > > > > > > Why is there 1 dbus program (instead of 2 or 3)? > > > > Most likely because it has mostly been restrained to its problem domain > and no one has been troubled enough by it to reimplement a replacement. > > After this I don't know enough to comment further but I find your > thoughts interesting. > > - Nate > > -- > > "The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all > possible worlds. The pessimist fears this is true." > > Ham radio, Linux, bikes, and more: http://www.n0nb.us > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Kicking the tires on Valentine release
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 11:27:07PM -0500, william moss wrote: [cut] > > > > I have the same problem running Debian Jessie on my laptop. A few > > months ago all these items became greyed out and inoperative. Pressing > > the power button, though, instead of just turning off the power, > > started a proper shutdown. > > > > -- hendrik > > Try wdm. > WINGs Display Manager > Not sure if its still available for Debian, I compile from source on > FreeBSD and would also do so on Debian but lightdm on wheezy seems to be > fine. I can confirm wdm is still in Debian (I have been using it since "new" GDM became so large to require a few dozens other packages to run properly, around 7 or 8 years ago). It just works. HND KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [Dng] Combatting revisionist history
On Wed, Feb 25, 2015 at 01:11:09PM -0800, Go Linux wrote: > This excellent analysis of the systemd debacle was just posted over on FDN. > Should be required reading IMO. Enjoy! > > http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=120652&p=570371 > I personally think that the essence of that nice post is in the very last quote: "Those who don't understand Unix are condemned to reinvent it, poorly." The rest is just history, and as always happens to history it is and will be manipulated, rearranged, edulcorated, simmered and served in several possible fashions, styles and shapes, according to the taste of the narrator. My major regret is that in the end the immense decisional infrastructure of Debian, which I respected for years as an example of bottom-up democracy, was not able to *decide* on such a delicate and fundamental issue, which in fact was not just technical but phylosophical (and if you call the result of the GR a "decision" then we have very different views about what "deciding" means). My2Cents KatolaZ -- [ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ] [ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ] [ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ] [ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ] ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
