Re: playing flash regression in f13-beta

[Luming Yu]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jeff Spaleta  wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Luming Yu  wrote:
>> Hmm,... tried ff 3.6.4, not working...
>
>
> Just fyi, the flash video in question works fine for me in a fully
> updated 64bit F13 beta using the 64bit flash using the tarball from
> the adobe website
> libflashplayer-10.0.45.2.linux-x86_64.so.tar.gz

any instructions on how to do that?
Looks like it's not as simple as just copying it to /usr/lib64/flash-plugin...

>
> I don't have a 32bit system handy to test your specific scenario sorry.
>
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Re: playing flash regression in f13-beta

[Luming Yu]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Frank Murphy  wrote:
> On 24/04/10 11:13, Luming Yu wrote:
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I came across a really weird problem with flash player on playing
>> these video on http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/index.html
>>
>> For those featured videos like Bacteria-size Babies Among Ocean's Smallest 
>> Life:
>> Linux (f12) i686 + flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386 : works just fine.
>> Linux (f13-beta) i686 + flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386:  hang
>>
>
> If by hang you mean it just keeps loading.

It looks like keeps loading, since no new picutre is displayed  except
the first one indicating
it's receving data forever..

> Got that.
>
> F13.i686 kernel-PAE

2.6.33.2-57.fc13.i686.PAE

> flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386
> firefox-3.6.3-4.fc13.i686
> xulrunner-1.9.2.3-1.fc13.i686
>
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Re: The package 'gentoo' seems unmaintained for months

[Robin 'cheese' Lee]

On 04/26/2010 02:07 PM, Thomas Janssen wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 6:32 AM, Robin 'cheese' Lee
>   wrote:
>
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/acls/name/gentoo
>>
>> If the owner takes no count of this package, I would like to co-maintain it.
>> My FAS account is 'cheeselee'.
>> Thank you!
>>  
> You added yourself already to the package. You could send a mail to
> gentoo-ow...@fedoraproject.org asking him to approve you.
>
>
Never get a reply from Matthias, no matter through 
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/acls/name/gentoo ,
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=561303 ,
matth...@rpmforge.net or gentoo-ow...@fedoraproject.org .
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Quentin Armitage]

On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 12:45 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 13:37:11 -0400,
>   Matthias Clasen  wrote:
> > On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 10:08 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> > 
> > > I don't see how using Mozilla trademarks provides significant benefit
> > > to Fedora. It seems to mostly benefit Mozilla. I don't see why we should
> > > be breaking our rules to help them.
> > 
> > 
> > I think you are grossly misjudging the relative visibility and
> > importance of the Firefox and Fedora brands... nobody knows what Fedora
> > is, while most computer users will have at least heard about Firefox.
> 
> Yeah, but "most computer users" isn't relevant. The question is about what
> is relevant to Fedora users. Changing the name of Firefox will have little
> affect on them since it is installed as the default web browser. Being able
> to fix bugs in a timely manner on the other hand, is going to have a
> significant affect on them.
Not a nice idea, but, at least as a temporary workaround, could Fedora
ship both a Firefox and an Iceweasel; Firefox complying with the
trademark rules, and Iceweasel working as users would want it.

Could the Fedora shipped Firefox even have a home page that says "Have
you tried Iceweasel ..."? And bugs reported against Firefox could be
closed with "Fixed in Iceweasel".

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Re: The package 'gentoo' seems unmaintained for months

[Christoph Wickert]

Am Montag, den 26.04.2010, 16:04 +0800 schrieb Robin 'cheese' Lee:

> Never get a reply from Matthias, no matter through 
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/acls/name/gentoo ,
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=561303 ,
> matth...@rpmforge.net or gentoo-ow...@fedoraproject.org .

I see you already started the non-responsive maintainer process in the
bug report but it requires more than just a few comments in bugzilla,
especially if they are just "A new comment".

If Matthias is unresponsive, please write a mail with a meaningful
subject to devel list and to him directly.

Regards,
Christoph

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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[drago01]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 10:05 AM, Quentin Armitage
 wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 12:45 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 13:37:11 -0400,
>>   Matthias Clasen  wrote:
>> > On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 10:08 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>> >
>> > > I don't see how using Mozilla trademarks provides significant benefit
>> > > to Fedora. It seems to mostly benefit Mozilla. I don't see why we should
>> > > be breaking our rules to help them.
>> >
>> >
>> > I think you are grossly misjudging the relative visibility and
>> > importance of the Firefox and Fedora brands... nobody knows what Fedora
>> > is, while most computer users will have at least heard about Firefox.
>>
>> Yeah, but "most computer users" isn't relevant. The question is about what
>> is relevant to Fedora users. Changing the name of Firefox will have little
>> affect on them since it is installed as the default web browser. Being able
>> to fix bugs in a timely manner on the other hand, is going to have a
>> significant affect on them.
> Not a nice idea, but, at least as a temporary workaround, could Fedora
> ship both a Firefox and an Iceweasel; Firefox complying with the
> trademark rules, and Iceweasel working as users would want it.
>
> Could the Fedora shipped Firefox even have a home page that says "Have
> you tried Iceweasel ..."? And bugs reported against Firefox could be
> closed with "Fixed in Iceweasel".

That is nonsense ... it just creates confusion and maintenance overhead.
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[drago01]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 1:56 AM, Mail Lists  wrote:
> On 04/25/2010 07:17 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
>> The upstream version has that bug too, they just don't care about it enough
>> to release a fixed version in a timely manner.
>
>
>  OH - FYI, I am running upstream and I don't have that problem ... can
> disconnect the network all i want .. no crash.

The fedora build works fine for me too.
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Re: playing flash regression in f13-beta

[Frank Murphy]

On 26/04/10 09:01, Luming Yu wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Frank Murphy  wrote:
>> On 24/04/10 11:13, Luming Yu wrote:
>>> Hi there,
>>>
>>> I came across a really weird problem with flash player on playing
>>> these video on http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/index.html
>>>
>>> For those featured videos like Bacteria-size Babies Among Ocean's Smallest 
>>> Life:
>>> Linux (f12) i686 + flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386 : works just fine.
>>> Linux (f13-beta) i686 + flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386:  hang
>>>
>>
>> If by hang you mean it just keeps loading.
>
> It looks like keeps loading, since no new picutre is displayed  except
> the first one indicating
> it's receving data forever..
>

I have them playing in Chromium. F13.

Once I disabled adblock-plus.
Now working in friefox. F13

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Re: The package 'gentoo' seems unmaintained for months

[Robin 'cheese' Lee]

On 04/26/2010 04:12 PM, Christoph Wickert wrote:
> Am Montag, den 26.04.2010, 16:04 +0800 schrieb Robin 'cheese' Lee:
>
>
>> Never get a reply from Matthias, no matter through
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/pkgdb/acls/name/gentoo ,
>> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=561303 ,
>> matth...@rpmforge.net or gentoo-ow...@fedoraproject.org .
>>  
> I see you already started the non-responsive maintainer process in the
> bug report but it requires more than just a few comments in bugzilla,
> especially if they are just "A new comment".
>
> If Matthias is unresponsive, please write a mail with a meaningful
> subject to devel list and to him directly.
>
> Regards,
> Christoph
>
>
Okay. Thanks for your instruction.
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Re: Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

[Jaroslav Reznik]

On Sunday 25 April 2010 10:33:13 Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Christoph Wickert wrote:
> > I'm upstreaming reports from 'lazy idiots' too and some of them get
> > fixed. In fact the percentage of the ones that get fixed is not
> > different from the 'active' reporters cause usually the backtrace
> > contains all necessary data for the developer to fix the problem.
> 
> ABRT should file the bugs upstream in the first place, an automated tool
> should do the right thing in the first place. Of course that means having
> to deal with several different bug trackers, not just Bugzilla. But it's
> part of doing it right.
> 

This is not a (big) problem in ABRT - it's modular system. And I think best is 
to fill it to both - upstream and downstream bug (crash) tracker. Why? It's 
good to know that something is crashing for users. In times of Dr. Konqui we 
haven't had any idea how stable KDE is. Now we can see that we have lot of 
problems with some crashes - like KPixmap one - we can force upstream to fix it 
as it's really serious problem etc... So please - no to upstream - or we 
should join upstream here - and we should be CC'ed to Dr. Konqui's crashes.

Another problem is - upstream has the same problem as we have - Dr. Konqui 
significantly lowered the barrier to report bugs => more bugs reported with 
lower quality. Dr. Konqui forces reporter to submit better reports but it's 
not easy again to balance it - not to build another artificial barrier.

Jaroslav

> > If you really miss certain information ('Can you reproduce this crash?
> > What did you do when foo crashed?' and that kind of stuff), you can use
> > bugzilla's mass change feature that you are now using to close all the
> > bugs.
> 
> No.
> 1. I need to identify the bugs which are missing information in the first
> place, which is more than just "everything in the list produced by my saved
> search since the last mass needinfo" (which is what I'm using now).
> 2. I need to actually file the bug upstream, which is a manual process for
> every single bug. We have no tools to automate that (and Bugzilla-only
> tools aren't going to help because Gnash uses Savannah's bug tracker).
> 
> Kevin Kofler

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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 04/25/2010 07:37 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 10:08 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>
>> I don't see how using Mozilla trademarks provides significant benefit
>> to Fedora. It seems to mostly benefit Mozilla. I don't see why we should
>> be breaking our rules to help them.
>
>
> I think you are grossly misjudging the relative visibility and
> importance of the Firefox and Fedora brands... nobody knows what Fedora
> is, while most computer users will have at least heard about Firefox.

Does this justify Fedora throwing the principles of "Free SW" over board?

IMO, *no* - it's time to spread the world about Mozilla's trademark 
policy violating the prinicples of Free SW and Fedora's Mozilla being 
hostage of it.

In other words, if Fedora hasn't already entirely abandoned the original 
motivations and foundations it once was based on, it's time for Fedora 
to very serously reconsider their attitude on Mozilla packages.


Ralf


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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 04/25/2010 11:48 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
> Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>> Isn't this a FESCO issue? Maybe it is time to reopen this issue?
>
> Knowing my fellow FESCo members, I don't think I'll get a majority to agree
> with me. :-(

Well, may-be FESCO should decide upon on whether the FSF's
"freedom 3" [1] is a inclusion/exclusion criterion for packages in Fedora.

Ralf

[1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 04/26/2010 02:11 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> Well, may-be FESCO should decide upon on whether the FSF's
> "freedom 3" [1] is a inclusion/exclusion criterion for packages in Fedora.
>
> Ralf
>
> [1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
>   

It is (except for firmware) but before you wave it around,  you will do
well to ask FSF whether the Mozilla trademark guidelines violate it.  My
understanding is that, they don't consider it a violation and yes, I
have actually asked them. 

Rahul

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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[mike cloaked]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Rahul Sundaram  wrote:
> On 04/26/2010 02:11 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> Well, may-be FESCO should decide upon on whether the FSF's
>> "freedom 3" [1] is a inclusion/exclusion criterion for packages in Fedora.
>>
>> Ralf
>>
>> [1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
>>
>
> It is (except for firmware) but before you wave it around,  you will do
> well to ask FSF whether the Mozilla trademark guidelines violate it.  My
> understanding is that, they don't consider it a violation and yes, I
> have actually asked them.
>
> Rahul

May I ask whether anyone has the same crash occurring with Thunderbird
3.1b2?   I have been running the nightlies for that version for months
without any problem - is the crash only occurring with version 3.0.x?
Rather than planning on breaking away from Mozilla perhaps when TB
releases 3.1 the issue will become a non-issue?

Just a thought!

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Re: playing flash regression in f13-beta

[Mike Chambers]

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 15:50 +0800, Luming Yu wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jeff Spaleta  wrote:
> > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Luming Yu  wrote:
> >> Hmm,... tried ff 3.6.4, not working...
> >
> >
> > Just fyi, the flash video in question works fine for me in a fully
> > updated 64bit F13 beta using the 64bit flash using the tarball from
> > the adobe website
> > libflashplayer-10.0.45.2.linux-x86_64.so.tar.gz
> 
> any instructions on how to do that?
> Looks like it's not as simple as just copying it to /usr/lib64/flash-plugin...

1 - Your copying the .so file to the wrong location.  Just copy it
to /usr/lib64/mozilla/plugin/ dir and it works just fine, including
firefox.

2 - There are repos out there that will package the plugin for you and
have a repo setup to download it via yum and you don't have to do a
thing.  Just search for it.

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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 04/26/2010 02:39 PM, mike cloaked wrote:
>
> May I ask whether anyone has the same crash occurring with Thunderbird
> 3.1b2?   I have been running the nightlies for that version for months
> without any problem - is the crash only occurring with version 3.0.x?
> Rather than planning on breaking away from Mozilla perhaps when TB
> releases 3.1 the issue will become a non-issue?
>
> Just a thought!
>   

I see the crash issue as a symptom of a large issue of whether we are
comfortable with the trademark boundaries of Mozilla.  Besides the beta
of 3.1 might have other regressions and not very suitable as an update
to Fedora 12.  If Mozilla does a release quickly for 3.0.x, then it
would solve the current issue but I think it still leaves downstream in
a rather unpleasant situation in general where we are entirely dependant
on getting permission from Mozilla for even minor patches.   Mozilla
certainly are well within their legal rights to dictate how their brand
should be used by downstream distributions but whether it is the right
balance is questionable. 

Rahul

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Re: playing flash regression in f13-beta

[Luming Yu]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Frank Murphy  wrote:
> On 26/04/10 09:01, Luming Yu wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Frank Murphy  wrote:
>>> On 24/04/10 11:13, Luming Yu wrote:
 Hi there,

 I came across a really weird problem with flash player on playing
 these video on http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/index.html

 For those featured videos like Bacteria-size Babies Among Ocean's Smallest 
 Life:
 Linux (f12) i686 + flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386 : works just fine.
 Linux (f13-beta) i686 + flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386:  hang

>>>
>>> If by hang you mean it just keeps loading.
>>
>> It looks like keeps loading, since no new picutre is displayed  except
>> the first one indicating
>> it's receving data forever..
>>
>
> I have them playing in Chromium. F13.
>
> Once I disabled adblock-plus.

I have never installed the plug-in
[r...@4core-i386 ~]# yum search adblock
mozilla-adblockplus.noarch : Adblocking extension for Mozilla Firefox
konq-plugins.i686 : Additional plugins that interact with konqueror
[r...@4core-i386 ~]# rpm -qa | grep adblockplus
(nothing returned)

And I notcied I can play flash (Bacteria-size Babies Among Ocean's )
too after succesfuuly played some playable video like (tiger...)

Really weird


> Now working in friefox. F13
>
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>
> Frank Murphy
> UTF_8 Encoded, Fedora 64 & 32 bit
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preupgrade 1.1.5 released

[Richard Hughes]

Preupgrade prepares a Fedora system for an upgrade.

Version 1.1.5
~~
Released: 2010-04-26

* Translations
 - Add initial il8n support for preupgrade (Igor Pires Soares)
 - Add  il8n support for preupgrade-cli. Fixes rh#562036 (Igor Pires Soares)

* Bugfix:
 - Add 'clearpart --none' to the kickstart, as anaconda no longer
defaults to this. Fixes rh#575400 (Richard Hughes)
 - For some reason name is null when getting the callback from yum.
Detect this and prevent a crash. Fixes rh#572148 (Richard Hughes)
 - Fix up the makefiles so 'make dist' does the right thing (Seth Vidal)

I'm building rpm's and an update for F12 now.

Richard.
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Re: Postgresql namespace

[Devrim GÜNDÜZ]

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 12:22 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> Any reason not to have it in the Fedora repo instead of your own?

I'm not the maintainer of PostgreSQL package in Fedora/RHEL. Tom (Lane)
has been already maintaining it and doing very good job over there at
Red Hat. He will *probably* do the same for Fedora when 9.0 goes beta or
so. I am the upstream packager only.

FWIW, since Fedora/RHEL (up to 5.5) does support only 1 PostgreSQL
version w/ RPMs, this 3rd party repository  helps people to use recent
PG versions with their distros. (Majority of our users are RHEL 5 users,
who use PostgreSQL 8.3 and 8.4 on RHEL 5). I'm sure that's one of the
reasons that RHEL 5.5 shipped PostgreSQL 8.4 along with 8.1. 

Regards,
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Re: Postgresql namespace

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 04/26/2010 04:47 PM, Devrim GÜNDÜZ wrote
> FWIW, since Fedora/RHEL (up to 5.5) does support only 1 PostgreSQL
> version w/ RPMs, this 3rd party repository  helps people to use recent
> PG versions with their distros. (Majority of our users are RHEL 5 users,
> who use PostgreSQL 8.3 and 8.4 on RHEL 5). I'm sure that's one of the
> reasons that RHEL 5.5 shipped PostgreSQL 8.4 along with 8.1. 
>   

Perhaps I was not clear but my question was if multiple of Postgres is a
useful to thing to have, why don't we do it in the Fedora repo instead
of having users seek out and use a third party repo?

Rahul
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Re: Postgresql namespace

[Devrim GÜNDÜZ]

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 16:58 +0530, Rahul Sundaram wrote:

> Perhaps I was not clear but my question was if multiple of Postgres is
> a useful to thing to have, why don't we do it in the Fedora repo
> instead of having users seek out and use a third party repo?

As I wrote: I'm *not* maintaining PostgreSQL RPMs for Fedora. What I'm
maintaining is PostgreSQL modules. 

It is up to Tom to use that feature in Fedora RPMs.

Regards,
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Re: [Crash-catcher] ABRT duplicate detection

[Jiri Moskovcak]

On 04/25/2010 09:33 PM, Radek Vokal wrote:
> 2010/4/24 Christoph Höger:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I was just wondering: How mature is ABRTs duplicate detection?
>>
>> You might all know the MS "search for a solution to this problem" window
>> popping up after an application crashes. I've never seen it doing
>> something usefull, though. But if ABRT could detect duplicate crashes
>> one could use this to display a workaround or even propose an update via
>> packagekit. All we'd need to do would be to tag (or maybe link from, if
>> a wiki would be better) an bugzilla entry as containing either a
>> workaround or a fix. ABRT could then display the solution just after the
>> crash happened. Great, wouldn't it be?
>>
>> comments?
>>
>> Christoph
>>
>>
>
> I've cced the crash-catcher mailing list. Probably the developers can
> comment more about this idea, but in general I really - especially the
> part -known bug&  known workaround, which might be linked to a
> wiki-like database of  user problems and solutions.
>
> Radek

If ABRT finds a duplicate it can ask bodhi if an update fixing this BZ 
exists and if so, then it can provide a way to run pkgkit to install 
this update.

J.

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Re: ABRT duplicate detection

[Pekka Pietikainen]

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 09:33:40PM +0200, Radek Vokal wrote:
> > You might all know the MS "search for a solution to this problem" window
> > popping up after an application crashes. I've never seen it doing
> > something usefull, though. But if ABRT could detect duplicate crashes
> > one could use this to display a workaround or even propose an update via
> I've cced the crash-catcher mailing list. Probably the developers can
> comment more about this idea, but in general I really - especially the
> part -known bug & known workaround, which might be linked to a
> wiki-like database of  user problems and solutions.
Also pretty relevant (and implemented by MS & Apple) is whether the crash
has potential security implications.  Doing it "well" is somewhat involved,
but a rough estimate shouldn't be that difficult, look at the backtrace
and do a little-lots of heuristics.

http://msecdbg.codeplex.com/
http://seclists.org/dailydave/2009/q3/11

We may be doing some work in this area soon btw. :)
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How to contact Matthias Saou?

[Robin 'cheese' Lee]

According to 
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Policy_for_nonresponsive_package_maintainers 
,
I now ask if anyone knows how to contact Matthias Saou.

I would like to co-maintain the package 'gentoo'.
I have provided enough information to update this package.
Refer to: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=561303

Cheers
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Re: How to contact Matthias Saou?

[Liang Suilong]

Robin Lee

You can go to IRC channel #fedora-admin, and say that the packager of gentoo
disappears. You can not contract with him. Then admin follows your case.

Liang Suilong

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 9:12 PM, Robin 'cheese' Lee wrote:

> According to
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Policy_for_nonresponsive_package_maintainers
> ,
> I now ask if anyone knows how to contact Matthias Saou.
>
> I would like to co-maintain the package 'gentoo'.
> I have provided enough information to update this package.
> Refer to: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=561303
>
> Cheers
> --
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> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
>



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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 04/26/2010 10:52 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
> On 04/26/2010 02:11 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>> Well, may-be FESCO should decide upon on whether the FSF's
>> "freedom 3" [1] is a inclusion/exclusion criterion for packages in Fedora.
>>
>> Ralf
>>
>> [1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
>>
>
> It is (except for firmware)

... and on Fedora's own trademark encumbered packages.

> but before you wave it around,  you will do
> well to ask FSF whether the Mozilla trademark guidelines violate it.
I know - I had a discussion with a FSF-representative on this.

But ... many people disagree with this.

As well as the facts speak for themselves:

* The Fedora Mozilla packages can't be bug-fixed/patched.
Cause: The package is non-free.

* The Fedora Mozilla package can't be made compliant to the FPG.
Cause the packages are non-free.


Openly speaking, I feel RH is not interested addressing this issues, 
likely for political reasons or for marketing reason - A too high price 
to pay, if you ask me.


>  My
> understanding is that, they don't consider it a violation and yes, I
> have actually asked them.

Well, Mozilla license definitely is an open-source license.
It's just that the Mozilla packages in Fedora are non-free.




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Re: How to contact Matthias Saou?

[Michael Cronenworth]

Robin 'cheese' Lee wrote:
> According to
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Policy_for_nonresponsive_package_maintainers
> ,
> I now ask if anyone knows how to contact Matthias Saou.
>

I had started[1] this process weeks ago. He rebuilt easytag a few days 
after my initial e-mail but for an unrelated bug report. He has not 
responded to my direct e-mails or bug reports or shown any other 
activity since.

[1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-April/134383.html
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Re: How to contact Matthias Saou?

[Chen Lei]

On 2010-04-26 21:35:53，"Michael Cronenworth"   wrote：
>I had started[1] this process weeks ago. He rebuilt easytag a few days 
>after my initial e-mail but for an unrelated bug report. He has not 
>responded to my direct e-mails or bug reports or shown any other 
>activity since.
>
>[1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-April/134383.html
>-- 
I would like to see "let all packagers edit this package" feature in pkgdb 
ASAP. Thus, we can make many trival
packages to be editable for all packagers after defining a scope for trival 
package.
e.g.
Trival packages which don't have a co-maintainer should be editable for other 
packagers.
 
Regard.
Chen Lei
 
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 04/26/2010 07:05 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> On 04/26/2010 10:52 AM, Rahul Sundaram wrote:
>> On 04/26/2010 02:11 PM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>>> Well, may-be FESCO should decide upon on whether the FSF's
>>> "freedom 3" [1] is a inclusion/exclusion criterion for packages in
>>> Fedora.
>>>
>>> Ralf
>>>
>>> [1] http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
>>>
>>
>> It is (except for firmware)
>
> ... and on Fedora's own trademark encumbered packages.

No.  Only firmware.   Fedora's trademarks are not a problem at all.  
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/common-distros.html.  

> Well, Mozilla license definitely is an open-source license.
> It's just that the Mozilla packages in Fedora are non-free.

How?  Your claim here is certainly not supported by the FSF.  although
they have some issues with the recommendation of non-free plugins and if
you consider it a legal question,  it is outside the scope of FESCo. 
FESCo can still discuss it from a policy perspective but then pointing
to FSF guidelines confuses a policy discussion with a legal one. 

Rahul

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Re: How to contact Matthias Saou?

[Thomas Janssen]

2010/4/26 Chen Lei :
> On 2010-04-26 21:35:53，"Michael Cronenworth"   wrote：
>>I had started[1] this process weeks ago. He rebuilt easytag a few days
>>after my initial e-mail but for an unrelated bug report. He has not
>>responded to my direct e-mails or bug reports or shown any other
>>activity since.
>>
>>[1] http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2010-April/134383.html
>>--
> I would like to see "let all packagers edit this package" feature in pkgdb
> ASAP. Thus, we can make many trival
> packages to be editable for all packagers after defining a scope for trival
> package.
> e.g.
> Trival packages which don't have a co-maintainer should be editable for
> other packagers.

Ah, no thanks. I have packages without a co-maintainer and i don't
want anyone be able to fiddle with it. May the package or fix be
trivial or not. I prefer to have a provenpackager for that.

-- 
LG Thomas

Dubium sapientiae initium
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Tom "spot" Callaway]

On 04/26/2010 09:35 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
> * The Fedora Mozilla packages can't be bug-fixed/patched.
> Cause: The package is non-free.
> 
> * The Fedora Mozilla package can't be made compliant to the FPG.
> Cause the packages are non-free.

Neither of these are true.

The Fedora Mozilla packages can be bug-fixed/patched. If Mozilla doesn't
accept the patches upstream first, we would no longer have permission to
use their trademarks, and would need to remove them when we did so.

As to why we have not simply patched at will, and discarded the
trademarks, well, I think that is ultimately up to FESCo and the
Maintainer(s) to decide how we wish to operate in that manner.

Personally, I feel that there is name-recognition value in the Mozilla
trademarks, and we should make every effort to try to discuss a
compromise with them to allow us a bit more flexibility while retaining
the trademark use. Perhaps this is a discussion that could be opened
with Luis Villa?

~spot
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Peter Lemenkov]

2010/4/26 Tom "spot" Callaway :

> The Fedora Mozilla packages can be bug-fixed/patched. If Mozilla doesn't
> accept the patches upstream first, we would no longer have permission to
> use their trademarks, and would need to remove them when we did so.

You just said something like "yes we can, but Mozilla will deny" -
this is exactly what Ralf told us earlier.

> As to why we have not simply patched at will, and discarded the
> trademarks, well, I think that is ultimately up to FESCo and the
> Maintainer(s) to decide how we wish to operate in that manner.

It's not up to maintainer to decide whether to provide non-free
package in Fedora. And I don't see why we need to ask FESCo for
resolution of this (clearly visible for almost everyone) violation of
our guidelines.

> Personally, I feel that there is name-recognition value in the Mozilla
> trademarks, and we should make every effort to try to discuss a
> compromise with them to allow us a bit more flexibility while retaining
> the trademark use. Perhaps this is a discussion that could be opened
> with Luis Villa?

Rebranding can be a difficult task, but this task also can be easily
measured in man-hours, man-days or man-months, and this would be a
ultimate solution, while chatting with lawers can consume much more
time w/o success (nothing personal here).

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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 04/26/2010 07:26 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> As to why we have not simply patched at will, and discarded the
> trademarks, well, I think that is ultimately up to FESCo and the
> Maintainer(s) to decide how we wish to operate in that manner.
>   

Alright.  So I have filed this issue with FESCo since we are unlikely to
find consensus on our own

https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/369

Rahul
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Re: How to contact Matthias Saou?

[Chen Lei]

On 2010-04-26 21:54:13，"Thomas Janssen"   wrote：
>Ah, no thanks. I have packages without a co-maintainer and i don't
>want anyone be able to fiddle with it. May the package or fix be
>trivial or not. I prefer to have a provenpackager for that.

This could be done with a  QA page which compares upstream version and rawhide 
version. A trival package(like former fedora extras) without a co-maintainer 
which lags for more than 3 months  should be editable for all others.
 
We can also leave a choice like "packager group members can commit" like 
"provenpackager group members can commit". This may benifit fedora a lot to be 
a bleed-edge OS.
 
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Re: How to contact Matthias Saou?

[Matthias Saou]

Robin 'cheese' Lee wrote :

> According to 
> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Policy_for_nonresponsive_package_maintainers 
> ,
> I now ask if anyone knows how to contact Matthias Saou.

Pong! So, I guess I can answer "me!" :-)

> I would like to co-maintain the package 'gentoo'.
> I have provided enough information to update this package.
> Refer to: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=561303

Thanks for posting the link again. I'm indeed behind on bugzilla
reports and even on a few personal emails, including yours. I'll take
care of this as soon as possible, hopefully today.

Matthias

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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Rahul Sundaram]

On 04/26/2010 07:44 PM, Peter Lemenkov wrote:
>
> It's not up to maintainer to decide whether to provide non-free
> package in Fedora. And I don't see why we need to ask FESCo for
> resolution of this (clearly visible for almost everyone) violation of
> our guidelines.
>   

Mozilla has some restrictive trademark guidelines but it nevertheless
Free software w.rt to copyright licensing (triple licensing with GPL,
LGPL and MPL) and is fully compliant with Fedora licensing guidelines. 
It does violate Fedora packaging guidelines but FESCo is authorized to
give exceptions and decide on policy matters and I have filed it at

https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/369

Rahul
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Re: How to contact Matthias Saou?

[Robin 'cheese' Lee]

On 04/26/2010 10:19 PM, Matthias Saou wrote:
> Robin 'cheese' Lee wrote :
>
>
>> According to
>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Policy_for_nonresponsive_package_maintainers
>> ,
>> I now ask if anyone knows how to contact Matthias Saou.
>>  
> Pong! So, I guess I can answer "me!" :-)
>
>
>> I would like to co-maintain the package 'gentoo'.
>> I have provided enough information to update this package.
>> Refer to: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=561303
>>  
> Thanks for posting the link again. I'm indeed behind on bugzilla
> reports and even on a few personal emails, including yours. I'll take
> care of this as soon as possible, hopefully today.
>
> Matthias
>
>
I'm feeling lucky!
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Re: Postgresql namespace

[Toshio Kuratomi]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 02:17:57PM +0300, Devrim GÜNDÜZ wrote:
> FWIW, since Fedora/RHEL (up to 5.5) does support only 1 PostgreSQL
> version w/ RPMs, this 3rd party repository  helps people to use recent
> PG versions with their distros. (Majority of our users are RHEL 5 users,
> who use PostgreSQL 8.3 and 8.4 on RHEL 5). I'm sure that's one of the
> reasons that RHEL 5.5 shipped PostgreSQL 8.4 along with 8.1. 
> 
Can addons to postgres (and
I realize we have many different types of addons... perhaps we need to know
if there's a a majority of one or the other or an intuitive way to break the
addons into categories) be used with both postgresql-8.1 and postgresql-8.4
from a single package or do they need multiple packages?  Since we do have
multiple versions of postgresql now (in RHEL5.5) it makes sense to me to
keep the postgresql prefix to separate the two versions from each other.

Having users search for "orafce" if it's targeting postgresql-8.1
and postgresql84-orafce if it's targeting postgresql-8.4 in bugzilla, yum
install, etc, isn't a great experience.

-Toshio


pgpkwk9rrnYiT.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 04/26/2010 03:56 PM, Tom "spot" Callaway wrote:
> On 04/26/2010 09:35 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>
>> * The Fedora Mozilla packages can't be bug-fixed/patched.
>> Cause: The package is non-free.
>>
>> * The Fedora Mozilla package can't be made compliant to the FPG.
>> Cause the packages are non-free.
>>  
> Neither of these are true.
>
> The Fedora Mozilla packages can be bug-fixed/patched.
This was what Martin Stransky had claimed.

A I understood his claim: "He can't apply patches/bug fixes to Fedora's 
Thunderbird, because this would void Mozilla's trademark".

IMO, the techical impacts of this are clearly visible in Fedora's 
packages, such as the clear FPG violations Kevin has elaborated.

> Personally, I feel that there is name-recognition value in the Mozilla
> trademarks,
As I already said, I feel this what RH is interested in for political or 
marketing reasons.

As a propopent of "Free SW", my interest is to fight those who are 
applying trademarks to undermine the principles of "free SW".

Ralf

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A question about locale files

[Robin 'cheese' Lee]

Hello!
I am now dealing with a package named 'gentoo'.
It installs following locale files:

/usr/share/locale/de/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/es_MX/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/fr/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/it/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/ja_JP.UTF-8/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/pl/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/ru_RU.CP1251/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/ru_RU.KOI8-R/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/ru_RU.cp1251/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/ru_RU.koi8r/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/ru_RU.utf8/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
/usr/share/locale/sv/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo

There are some issues here:
1. Directories like /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.* are not provided by any 
package. This conflicts with guidelines.
2. /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.utf8 and /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/ are 
obvious duplicates.
3. /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/ should be identical with 
/usr/share/locale/ru/, /usr/share/locale/ja_JP.UTF-8/ should be 
identical with /usr/share/locale/ja/ .

Which is the proper way to solve these issues?
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Re: A question about locale files

[Felix Kaechele]

Hi Robin,

I'm sure a peek into 
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Handling_Locale_Files 
will definitely help you.

HTH,
Felix

Am 26.04.2010 17:46, schrieb Robin 'cheese' Lee:
> Hello!
> I am now dealing with a package named 'gentoo'.
> It installs following locale files:
>
> /usr/share/locale/de/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/es_MX/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/fr/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/it/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/ja_JP.UTF-8/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/pl/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.CP1251/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.KOI8-R/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.cp1251/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.koi8r/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.utf8/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
> /usr/share/locale/sv/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>
> There are some issues here:
> 1. Directories like /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.* are not provided by any
> package. This conflicts with guidelines.
> 2. /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.utf8 and /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/ are
> obvious duplicates.
> 3. /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/ should be identical with
> /usr/share/locale/ru/, /usr/share/locale/ja_JP.UTF-8/ should be
> identical with /usr/share/locale/ja/ .
>
> Which is the proper way to solve these issues?

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Re: A question about locale files

[Robin 'cheese' Lee]

On 04/26/2010 11:48 PM, Felix Kaechele wrote:
> Hi Robin,
>
> I'm sure a peek into
> http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Handling_Locale_Files
> will definitely help you.
>
> HTH,
> Felix
>
> Am 26.04.2010 17:46, schrieb Robin 'cheese' Lee:
>
>> Hello!
>> I am now dealing with a package named 'gentoo'.
>> It installs following locale files:
>>
>> /usr/share/locale/de/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/es_MX/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/fr/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/it/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/ja_JP.UTF-8/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/pl/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.CP1251/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.KOI8-R/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.cp1251/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.koi8r/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.utf8/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> /usr/share/locale/sv/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>>
>> There are some issues here:
>> 1. Directories like /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.* are not provided by any
>> package. This conflicts with guidelines.
>> 2. /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.utf8 and /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/ are
>> obvious duplicates.
>> 3. /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/ should be identical with
>> /usr/share/locale/ru/, /usr/share/locale/ja_JP.UTF-8/ should be
>> identical with /usr/share/locale/ja/ .
>>
>> Which is the proper way to solve these issues?
>>  
>
This guideline does not talk about the question I am asking.
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F-13 Branched report: 20100426 changes

[Branched Report]

Compose started at Mon Apr 26 09:15:03 UTC 2010







New package OpenLP
Open source Church presentation and lyrics projection application
New package asl
Macro Assembler AS
New package flowcanvas
Interactive widget for "boxes and lines" environments
New package gtkhash
GTK+ utility for computing message digests or checksums
New package libQtGTL
Qt bindings for OpenGTL
New package libdesktop-agnostic
Provides an extensible configuration API
New package libqxt
Qt extension library
New package orc
The Oil Run-time Compiler
New package pyclutter-gst
Python modules that allow you to use the Clutter-GST toolkit
New package pyclutter-gtk
Python modules that allow you to use the Clutter-GTK toolkit
New package python3-chardet
Character encoding auto-detection in Python
New package qtlockedfile
QFile extension with advisory locking functions
New package rasterview
CUPS raster file viewer
Updated Packages:

PyQt4-4.7.3-1.fc13
--
* Sat Apr 17 2010 Rex Dieter  - 4.7.3-1
- PyQt-x11-gpl-4.7.3


R-2.11.0-1.fc13
---
* Thu Apr 22 2010 Tom "spot" Callaway  - 2.11.0-1
- update to 2.11.0

* Fri Apr 02 2010 Caolán McNamara  - 2.10.1-2
- rebuild for icu 4.4


afflib-3.5.10-1.fc13

* Sun Apr 18 2010 Nicolas Chauvet  - 3.5.10-1
- Update to 3.5.10
- Remove upstreamed patch


alsa-lib-1.0.23-1.fc13
--
* Fri Apr 16 2010 Jaroslav Kysela  - 1.0.23-1
- Updated to 1.0.23 final


amsn-0.98.3-1.fc13
--
* Sat Apr 24 2010 Sander Hoentjen  - 0.98.3-1
- update to 0.98.3
- check ssl connections (CVE-2010-0744)
- drop upstreamed patches


bsd-games-2.17-30.fc13
--
* Sun Apr 18 2010 Wart  2.17-30
- Add patch to fix core dump in backgammon when screen is < 24 lines
  tall (BZ #580749)


chmsee-1.1.0-1.fc13
---
* Tue Apr 13 2010 bbbush  - 1.1.0-1
- upstream release, support "recent files" and session recovery, etc.


coolkey-1.1.0-14.fc13
-
* Mon Feb 22 2010 Robert Relyea  - 1.1.0-14
- remove dependency on ifd-egate


cups-1.4.3-6.fc13
-
* Fri Apr 16 2010 Tim Waugh  1:1.4.3-6
- Mark DNS-SD Device IDs that have been guessed at with "FZY:1;".

* Fri Apr 16 2010 Jiri Popelka  1:1.4.3-5
- Fixed str3541.patch

* Tue Apr 13 2010 Tim Waugh  1:1.4.3-4
- Add an SNMP query for HP's device ID OID (STR #3552).

* Tue Apr 13 2010 Tim Waugh  1:1.4.3-3
- Handle SNMP supply level quirks (bug #581825).

* Wed Mar 31 2010 Tim Waugh  1:1.4.3-2
- Another BrowsePoll fix: handle EAI_NODATA as well (bug #567353).

* Wed Mar 31 2010 Jiri Popelka  1:1.4.3-1
- 1.4.3.
- No longer need CVE-2009-3553, str3381, str3390, str3391,
  str3403, str3407, str3413, str3418, str3422, str3425,
  str3428, str3431, str3435, str3436, str3439, str3440,
  str3442, str3448, str3458, str3460, cups-sidechannel-intrs,
  negative-snmp-string-length, cups-media-empty-warning patches.

* Tue Mar 30 2010 Jiri Popelka  1:1.4.2-36
- Fixed lpstat to adhere to -o option (bug #577901, STR #3541).

* Wed Mar 10 2010 Jiri Popelka  1:1.4.2-35
- Fixed (for the third time) patch for STR #3425 to correctly
  remove job info files in /var/spool/cups (bug #571830).


directfb-1.4.3-1.fc13
-
* Mon Apr 19 2010 Nicolas Chauvet  - 1.4.3-1
- Update to 1.4.3


dracut-005-3.fc13
-
* Tue Apr 20 2010 Harald Hoyer  005-3
- fixed network with multiple nics
- fixed nfsidmap paths
- do not run blkid on non active container raids
- fixed cdrom polling mechanism
- update to latest git


epiphany-2.30.2-1.fc13
--
* Sun Apr 18 2010 Matthias Clasen  2.30.2-1
- Update to 2.30.2
- Use GConf macros


epiphany-extensions-2.30.0-1.fc13
-
* Thu Apr 01 2010 Matthias Clasen  - 2.30.0-1
- Update to 2.30.0


erlang-R13B-04.4.fc13
-
* Sat Apr 17 2010 Peter Lemenkov  - R13B-04.4
- Added missing Requires mesa-libGL{U} for wx module (rhbz #583287)
- Fix for buffer overflow in pcre module (rhbz #583288)
- Doc sub-package marked as noarch (partially resolves rhbz #491165)


freedroidrpg-0.13-1.fc13

* Mon Apr 19 2010 Wart  - 0.13-1
- Update to 0.13


fuse-python-0.2.1-1.fc13

* Fri Apr 16 2010 Peter Lemenkov  0.2.1-1
- Ver. 0.2.1 (bugfix release)
- Patch dropped (upstreamed)


gcc-4.4.3-18.fc13
-
* Thu Apr 22 2010 Jakub Jelinek  4.4.3-18
- update from gcc-4_4-branch
  - PRs fortran/43339, fortran/43836, libgcj/40860, libgomp/43569,
libgomp/43706, libstdc++/40518, middle-end/43337, middle-end/43570,
tree-optimization/43769, tree-optimization/43771
  - fix ICE when compiling 64-bit Wine (#583501, PR target/43662)
- VTA backports
  - PRs debug/40040, debug/43762
- add support for -Wunused-but-set-{parameter,variable} non-default
  warnings for C (#538266, PRs c/18624, bootstrap/43699)


gdm-2.30.0-1.fc13
--

Re: A question about locale files

[Przemek Klosowski]

Am 26.04.2010 17:46, schrieb Robin 'cheese' Lee:

>> It installs following locale files:
>>...
>> /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.CP1251/LC_MESSAGES/gentoo.mo
>> ...
>> There are some issues here:
>> 1. Directories like /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.* are not provided by any
>> package. This conflicts with guidelines.
>> 2. /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.utf8 and /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/ are
>> obvious duplicates.
>> 3. /usr/share/locale/ru_RU.UTF-8/ should be identical with
>> /usr/share/locale/ru/, /usr/share/locale/ja_JP.UTF-8/ should be
>> identical with /usr/share/locale/ja/ .
>>
>> Which is the proper way to solve these issues?
>

and  Felix Kaechele responded :

 >  http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/Guidelines#Handling_Locale_Files
 > will definitely help you.

I think the guidelines Felix mentioned will simply
locate the locale files and make sure they end up on
the %files list, so the package will be complete, but
they do not address the issue of whether the location is
compatible with the Fedora standard layout guidelines.
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Upcoming Fedora 13 Schedule Tasks

[John Poelstra]

Start   End Name
Tue 13-Apr  Tue 04-May  Beta Testing
Wed 28-Apr  Thu 29-Apr  Create 'Final' Test Compose (TC)
Thu 29-Apr  Wed 05-May  Test 'Final' Test Compose
Fri 30-Apr  Fri 30-Apr  Final Blocker Meeting (f13blocker) #3
Tue 04-May  Tue 04-May  End of Beta Testing
Tue 04-May  Tue 04-May  Development: Final Freeze
Wed 05-May  Wed 05-May  Final Blocker Meeting (f13blocker) #4
Thu 06-May  Thu 06-May  Compose 'Final' RC
Thu 06-May  Thu 06-May  Enable Fedora 13 Updates
Tue 11-May  Tue 11-May  Fedora 13 Final Go/No-Go Meeting (20:00 EST)
Wed 12-May  Wed 12-May  Fedora 13 Final Release Readiness Meeting
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Re: Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

[Jeff Spaleta]

On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 12:10 AM, Christoph Wickert
 wrote:
> I'm upstreaming reports from 'lazy idiots' too and some of them get
> fixed. In fact the percentage of the ones that get fixed is not
> different from the 'active' reporters cause usually the backtrace
> contains all necessary data for the developer to fix the problem.

Hmm all your reports have all the necessary debugging information
because the user happened to have all the debuginfo's installed at the
time of the crash? Lucky duck.
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Re: Postgresql namespace

[Jóhann B. Guðmundsson]

Is there any reason why we aren't naming this as closed to upstream as 
possible?


http://www.postgresql.org/download/linux

http://yum.pgsqlrpms.org/8.4/fedora/fedora-12-x86_64/ 



BTW What's the difference between upstream packages and the packages we 
build as in why does upstream feel compelled to provide it's own 
packages and repo?


JBG
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Plan for tomorrow's FESCo meeting (2010-04-27)

[Kevin Fenzi]

Following is the list of topics that will be discussed in the FESCo
meeting tomorrow at 19:00UTC (3pm EDT) in #fedora-meeting on
irc.freenode.net.

= Followups = 

#351 Create a policy for updates - status report on implementation
#340 Determine and approve F11 end of life date

= New Business = 

#364 New Sponsor Request: Alex Kurtakov
#369 Mozilla trademark guidelines
#366 Sponsor self-nomination: oget

= Fedora Engineering Services tickets = 

https://fedorahosted.org/fedora-engineering-services/report/6

= Open Floor = 

For more complete details, please visit each individual ticket.  The
report of the agenda items can be found at
https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/report/9

If you would like to add something to this agenda, you can reply to
this e-mail, file a new ticket at https://fedorahosted.org/fesco,
e-mail me directly, or bring it up at the end of the meeting, during
the open floor topic. 

kevin


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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[shmuel siegel]

On 4/25/2010 8:37 PM, Matthias Clasen wrote:
> On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 10:08 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
>
>
>> I don't see how using Mozilla trademarks provides significant benefit
>> to Fedora. It seems to mostly benefit Mozilla. I don't see why we should
>> be breaking our rules to help them.
>>  
> I think you are grossly misjudging the relative visibility and
> importance of the Firefox and Fedora brands... nobody knows what Fedora
> is, while most computer users will have at least heard about Firefox.
>
>
I disagree with your criteria. The visibility in of itself is not 
relevant; its consequences are. The important criteria, in my eyes, are:
1) Does the Mozilla name attract users to Fedora or keep them with 
Fedora once they have tasted it?
2) Would Fedora lose users if it dropped the trademarked name?
3) Does Fedora lose users by having unpatched versions of Firefox etc.?

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Re: F13/i686: yum update emptied /boot, /bin, /lib, etc.

[Jim Meyering]

James Antill wrote:
> On Fri, 2010-04-23 at 15:52 -0400, Seth Vidal wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, 23 Apr 2010, Jim Meyering wrote:
>>
>> > I've just realized that I had a list of all packages/versions
>> > that were installed as of a few weeks ago (April 5).
>> > In case it helps:
>> >
>>
>> Yah - the history sqlite file you uploaded has all that info in there (in
>> a round about way) but the problem still is we don't know what
>> precipitated all the erasures.
>>
>> b/c those erasures  are JUST erasures, they aren't the cleanup step of an
>> update.
>>
>> which points me at weird plugin behavior.
>
>  Jim, is it possible you were running with "LANG=C"?

Root's LANG setting was the relatively common default,
but it's overridden by my LC_ALL=C setting:

  $ locale   :
  LANG=en_US.UTF-8
  LC_CTYPE="C"
  LC_NUMERIC="C"
  LC_TIME="C"
  LC_COLLATE="C"
  LC_MONETARY="C"
  LC_MESSAGES="C"
  LC_PAPER="C"
  LC_NAME="C"
  LC_ADDRESS="C"
  LC_TELEPHONE="C"
  LC_MEASUREMENT="C"
  LC_IDENTIFICATION="C"
  LC_ALL=C

>  If so I'm 99% sure I've found the bug:
>
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=585424
> Langpacks goes on crack in LANG=C, for "removals" _and_ "updated",
> removing everything

Nice.  Glad you found the cause/fix.
Thanks!
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Re: ABRT duplicate detection

[Christoph Höger]

Am Sonntag, den 25.04.2010, 19:56 +0200 schrieb Alexander Boström:
> lör 2010-04-24 klockan 10:37 +0200 skrev Christoph Höger: 
> 
> > But if ABRT could detect duplicate crashes
> > one could use this to display a workaround or even propose an update via
> > packagekit.
> 
> It could look in bodhi for packages which claim to fix the bug.
>  "Would you like to test a proposed fix for this problem?"
> If the update is already installed or obsoleted then it just comments on
> the bug as usual.
> 
> Also, a week later, if the same user logs in again:
>  "Have you experienced any problems with the update of package foo which
>   was installed last Tuesday to fix the problem 'Foo borkborks on bar
>   when baz'?"

Yeah that would be the "easy" part. The more difficult would handle the
workarounds.

Nice to see some interest in this.



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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Adam Williamson]

On Sun, 2010-04-25 at 14:48 -0400, Chris Tyler wrote:

> * The trademark rules are there for a reason. Browser and e-mail clients
> are some of the most common attack points on desktop systems, and
> Mozilla needs to ensure that they don't get a black eye for some
> vulnerability introduced by a distro. And distros definitely introduce
> vulnerabilities: think about the Debian ssh-keygen patch fiasco as an
> example. We wouldn't do something so rash, of course -- or would we? The
> suggestion earlier in this thread that we patch TB and push directly to
> stable does not instill confidence. (We have the freedom to turn off the
> branding anytime and use the code however we want, but why give up the
> marketing value? and why give up the testing?)

I think a rather large part of the problem here is that all the above
'special exception' pleading applies far more to Firefox than it does to
Thunderbird. Firefox is a special exception; it's a phenomenon, the
single most successful F/OSS app, an app with its own very definite
distinct identity which many people know. It clearly does have a
reputation to protect and I can entirely agree with it being very
careful about that.

Thunderbird...uhhh, not so much. It's nowhere near as popular as
Firefox. Most people don't know what it is. It's not really a 'special
exception'; it's just another application like the ten gazillion others
we ship which don't have onerous trademark restrictions attached.

I think it'd be appropriate for Mozilla to take a rather more liberal
line with Thunderbird than it does with Firefox, if that's legally
plausible.
-- 
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
http://www.happyassassin.net

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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 10:36 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

> IMO, *no* - it's time to spread the world about Mozilla's trademark 
> policy violating the prinicples of Free SW and Fedora's Mozilla being 
> hostage of it.

You mean, much like the Fedora and Red Hat trademark policies, which say
almost the exact same things?

You can't modify Fedora under F/OSS principles and still call it Fedora,
just like you can't modify Firefox under F/OSS principles and still call
it Firefox. Both of us do this to protect the good name of the project.
We'd be in an extremely glass house-y situation if we tried to 'call
out' Mozilla over this. It'd be ridiculous.
-- 
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Fedora QA Community Monkey
IRC: adamw | Fedora Talk: adamwill AT fedoraproject DOT org
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Adam Williamson]

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 16:48 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:

> As a propopent of "Free SW", my interest is to fight those who are 
> applying trademarks to undermine the principles of "free SW".

This is not what Mozilla is doing. They are applying trademarks to
protect the names Mozilla, Firefox and Thunderbird. Consider what could
happen if they didn't; any Tom, Dick or Harry could 'patch' their
advert, badly-conceived 'feature' or, hell, piece of malware into
Firefox and call it Firefox, and Mozilla couldn't say boo to them for
it. Yes, this is true of many pieces of software that Fedora also ships,
but there's no real motive to do it to most of those; they don't have
Mozilla's profile.

If Mozilla's intent was in fact to undermine the principles of free SW,
they would make it as hard as possible to debrand Firefox; they do
rather the opposite.

(I've had the distinct displeasure of working with a bit of software
which actually did seem to go out of its way to make it as difficult as
possible to comply with the license gotchas - Truecrypt - and it's a
very different experience from working with Mozilla).
-- 
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Christopher Aillon]

On 04/23/2010 12:03 AM, Martin Stransky wrote:
> Hi,
>
> we're patching mozilla packages only for really critical issues because
> of mozilla trademarks. We can't put any patch we want to the mozilla
> package and ship it as 'Firefox' or 'Thunderbird'.

To clarify a little further...

The main purpose to get patches accepted by upstream before inclusion in 
Fedora is to make sure we are doing things the right way.  For example, 
some patches may inadvertently break standards compliance, have ill side 
effects with JavaScript, may fix connecting to some mail servers at the 
expense of others, etc.  Since the browser and mail client are an 
integral part of the daily user experience, we don't want to patch 
things which would have an unintended effect.

Also, in the past, certain distributors have altered or broken standards 
compliance in their clients with patches, and in continuing to do so, 
they no longer ship with Mozilla trademarks.  They have effectively 
created a different browser and mail client that behaves differently on 
some web sites or mail servers.  Correctly following open standards is 
extremely important for the internet, and the last thing I want is to 
effectively create a fork in this way.

We do have an agreement with Mozilla and as such, we are permitted to 
use the Firefox and Thunderbird trademarks.  But even if we did not or 
it were decided those marks were not important to us, I strongly feel 
that we should continue do things the right way and get patches accepted 
upstream first.

> I've asked for inclusion at upstream bug,
> https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=550455, if you want to
> speed up the process you can reply there too.

Looking at both the Red Hat and upstream bugs,

The patch actually has already been accepted upstream already on 
2010-04-01, just not in the same branch.  There have been no complaints 
of regression in the bug however from trunk testers.

As Firefox and Thunderbird are high usage and high visibility products 
which tend to get many bugs and patches, we limit consideration to 
certain classes of bugs with high impact.  Based on the number of 
different users commenting and the number of duplicates of the bug, I 
think the impact of the bug was misjudged.  Clearly this is leaving a 
bad taste in users mouths, and I think we have a responsibility to both 
Fedora and Mozilla to include a fix for it.

However, I'd like to put this in updates-testing for several days to 
make sure it does not regress users of IMAP servers that do not suffer 
from this issue.  Given the number of affected users, I think it would 
get high karma relatively quickly, so this is a case where I think karma 
automatism should be disabled.  Let's see if anyone responds negatively 
in say 3 or 4 days before pushing this manually.
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Bruno Wolff III]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 15:45:53 -0700,
  Christopher Aillon  wrote:
> 
> We do have an agreement with Mozilla and as such, we are permitted to 
> use the Firefox and Thunderbird trademarks.  But even if we did not or 
> it were decided those marks were not important to us, I strongly feel 
> that we should continue do things the right way and get patches accepted 
> upstream first.

And they should do things the right way as well. If they are bundling
libraries, they should stop doing that.
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Re: Postgresql namespace

[Tom Lane]

=?ISO-8859-1?Q?=22J=F3hann_B=2E_Gu=F0mundsson=22?=  writes:
> BTW What's the difference between upstream packages and the packages we 
> build as in why does upstream feel compelled to provide it's own 
> packages and repo?

Upstream, or more accurately Devrim, provides prebuilt packages for a
range of Postgres release series on various platforms.  Most of those
platforms (including Fedora) only officially support one Postgres
release series.  The version that happens to match the platform's own
package is a bit redundant, agreed, but it may be easier for Devrim
to just build all the combinations than to track which one is redundant
at any given time.  Also, Devrim is pretty quick about publishing
updates when new upstream minor releases come out.  Some people might
prefer that to the platform's own update process, which can be a *lot*
slower.  This doesn't apply so much to Fedora, where I usually push the
"official" update about as quickly, but for sure it's an issue on
RHEL and CentOS.

regards, tom lane
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Re: Please move your ABRT bugs upstream

[Matt McCutchen]

On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 10:11 -0800, Jeff Spaleta wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 12:10 AM, Christoph Wickert
>  wrote:
> > I'm upstreaming reports from 'lazy idiots' too and some of them get
> > fixed. In fact the percentage of the ones that get fixed is not
> > different from the 'active' reporters cause usually the backtrace
> > contains all necessary data for the developer to fix the problem.
> 
> Hmm all your reports have all the necessary debugging information
> because the user happened to have all the debuginfo's installed at the
> time of the crash?

It wouldn't surprise me, since ABRT will automatically download the
debuginfo and regenerate the backtrace from the core dump.

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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Christopher Aillon]

On 04/26/2010 03:52 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
> And they should do things the right way as well. If they are bundling
> libraries, they should stop doing that.

Mozilla has to bundle to ship on Windows, Mac, even their builds for 
Linux where they don't control what versions of libraries are present on 
the system, if they are installed at all (hooray choice!).  That has 
absolutely no bearing at all on Fedora however because we can and do 
build with system libraries, and have done so for ages, precisely 
because they are good at providing build support for that.
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Re: Shell commands like to OS/2 shell (or MS PowerShell)

[Steven James Drinnan]

On Wed, 2010-04-21 at 09:33 +1000, Chris Jones wrote:
> >>On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 4:37 PM, Frank Murphy 
> wrote:
> On 19/04/10 23:51, Slava Zanko wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> >
> > Hi folk,
> >
> > I want to propose new idea about names of command line
> utilites...
> >
> > For example, all present utilites have sence just for guru's
> (ls, rm,
> > fsck etc), but for novies it's hard to use.
> 
> Bookmark this:
> http://ss64.com/bash/
> 
> Less typing, less for novices to forget.
> 
> --
> Regards,
> 
> Frank Murphy
> UTF_8 Encoded, Fedora.x86 64-32 Hybrid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm against any change. It makes perfect sense the way it is now. And
> it's great for those who use both Linux and Unix because most commands
> are interoperable between the two platforms. And beyond that, it's
> fast as a result of keeping commands short and easy to remember.
> 
> I haven't met a newbie yet that is even interested in learning how to
> interact with the command-line. They all seem to be some new breed
> migrating from Windows and expecting *nix to operate in a 1:1 manner.
> And for those who do want to learn it, do exactly that--learn it. It
> just takes time. Be patient.

+1


> I think there's more important things to focus on regarding Linux
> development.
> 
> 
> -- 
> Chris Jones
> Photographic Imaging Professional and Graphic Designer
> ABN: 98 317 740 240

Basically MS introduced PowerShell to compete with bash and try to give
Windows some flexibility like Linux (The syntax is now almost the same).
Remember this is for power-users, and newbies do not want the hassle of
using the commandline. 

Bash is a powerful tool and there maybe some flaws in the way that it
can be used but is it worth a rewrite?

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Re: playing flash regression in f13-beta

[Luming Yu]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 5:10 PM, Mike Chambers  wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 15:50 +0800, Luming Yu wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 11:53 AM, Jeff Spaleta  wrote:
>> > On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 5:41 PM, Luming Yu  wrote:
>> >> Hmm,... tried ff 3.6.4, not working...
>> >
>> >
>> > Just fyi, the flash video in question works fine for me in a fully
>> > updated 64bit F13 beta using the 64bit flash using the tarball from
>> > the adobe website
>> > libflashplayer-10.0.45.2.linux-x86_64.so.tar.gz
>>
>> any instructions on how to do that?
>> Looks like it's not as simple as just copying it to 
>> /usr/lib64/flash-plugin...
>
> 1 - Your copying the .so file to the wrong location.  Just copy it
> to /usr/lib64/mozilla/plugin/ dir and it works just fine, including
> firefox.

yes, it works for me.

>
> 2 - There are repos out there that will package the plugin for you and
> have a repo setup to download it via yum and you don't have to do a
> thing.  Just search for it.
>
> --
> Mike Chambers
> Madisonville, KY
>
> "Best lil town on Earth!"
>
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Re: playing flash regression in f13-beta

[Luming Yu]

On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Frank Murphy  wrote:
> On 26/04/10 09:01, Luming Yu wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Frank Murphy  wrote:
>>> On 24/04/10 11:13, Luming Yu wrote:
 Hi there,

 I came across a really weird problem with flash player on playing
 these video on http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/index.html

 For those featured videos like Bacteria-size Babies Among Ocean's Smallest 
 Life:
 Linux (f12) i686 + flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386 : works just fine.
 Linux (f13-beta) i686 + flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386:  hang

>>>
>>> If by hang you mean it just keeps loading.
>>
>> It looks like keeps loading, since no new picutre is displayed  except
>> the first one indicating
>> it's receving data forever..
>>
>
> I have them playing in Chromium. F13.

Chromium + F13 makes no differences...
FF 3.6.4-beta makes no differences...
In my experiences (along with others),  "Bacteria-size Babies Among
Ocean's Smallest Life" can't play *until* some playable videos (like
"tiger: on that site) haven been played successfully.
So it's extremely confusing if someone says " it works for me" when
referring to those *weird* videos on national geographic web site,
isn't it?

ps.  64bit plug-in seems to work just fine.


>
> Once I disabled adblock-plus.
> Now working in friefox. F13
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Frank Murphy
> UTF_8 Encoded, Fedora 64 & 32 bit
> --
> devel mailing list
> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
>
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Re: playing flash regression in f13-beta

[Luming Yu]

On Tue, Apr 27, 2010 at 10:47 AM, Luming Yu  wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 4:33 PM, Frank Murphy  wrote:
>> On 26/04/10 09:01, Luming Yu wrote:
>>> On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 2:45 PM, Frank Murphy  wrote:
 On 24/04/10 11:13, Luming Yu wrote:
> Hi there,
>
> I came across a really weird problem with flash player on playing
> these video on http://video.nationalgeographic.com/video/index.html
>
> For those featured videos like Bacteria-size Babies Among Ocean's 
> Smallest Life:
> Linux (f12) i686 + flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386 : works just fine.
> Linux (f13-beta) i686 + flash-plugin-10.0.45.2-release.i386:  hang
>

 If by hang you mean it just keeps loading.
>>>
>>> It looks like keeps loading, since no new picutre is displayed  except
>>> the first one indicating
>>> it's receving data forever..
>>>
>>
>> I have them playing in Chromium. F13.
>
> Chromium + F13 makes no differences...
> FF 3.6.4-beta makes no differences...
> In my experiences (along with others),  "Bacteria-size Babies Among
> Ocean's Smallest Life" can't play *until* some playable videos (like
> "tiger: on that site) haven been played successfully.
> So it's extremely confusing if someone says " it works for me" when
> referring to those *weird* videos on national geographic web site,
> isn't it?

You must have same big surprise like me if you see it was playing just well
when starting to gdb the App after installing several necessary debuginfo rpms.

To make sure it's not my bad, I went back to check another box ,which
was known not working..
Guess what, it was working too. (without using any tricks mentioned above)

God must have fixed the problem for us. :-)
or some mysterious things happened with the web site
offering the mysterious video, which sometimes working, sometimes
not working

>
> ps.  64bit plug-in seems to work just fine.
>
>
>>
>> Once I disabled adblock-plus.
>> Now working in friefox. F13
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Frank Murphy
>> UTF_8 Encoded, Fedora 64 & 32 bit
>> --
>> devel mailing list
>> devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
>> https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
>>
>
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Re: Thunderbird bz 579023 still not fixed even though there is an upstream fix available

[Ralf Corsepius]

On 04/27/2010 12:09 AM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> On Mon, 2010-04-26 at 10:36 +0200, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
>
>> IMO, *no* - it's time to spread the world about Mozilla's trademark
>> policy violating the prinicples of Free SW and Fedora's Mozilla being
>> hostage of it.
>
> You mean, much like the Fedora and Red Hat trademark policies, which say
> almost the exact same things?
Correct. The Fedora distro itself is non-free because of similar 
trademark games.


> You can't modify Fedora under F/OSS principles and still call it Fedora,
> just like you can't modify Firefox under F/OSS principles and still call
> it Firefox.
Correct.

Similar as Fedora/RH's restrictive trademark policies prevents people 
from "enhancing/bugfixing" Fedora, Mozilla's trademarks policies 
prevents Fedora from "enhancing/bugfixing" Firefox/Thunderbird.

The resort to both Fedora/RH's and Mozilla's trademark policies is to 
"rebrand or abandon".


Wrt. to Mozilla package in Fedora, the problem is Fedora containing 
packages which clearly violate the prinicples Fedora once was founded on 
("Freedom") and which infect Fedora with effects of "Non-Free SW" (e.g. 
unfixable bugs) == Mozilla's trademark games voids the effects of "OSS".

Ralf

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