Re: instaleren op 486 met 128 mb hd
On Tue, Nov 18, 2003 at 01:34:52AM +, ben wrote: > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:15:14 GMT > Ken Gilmour <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Wot? > > > > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:45:39 +0100, E. Tijseling wrote: > > >?ik heb een vraag over het instaleren van debian op een 486 met een > > >?128 mb hd. maximaal heb ik drie dimm sloten , voor een totaal van > > >?48 mb geheugen. > > > > > >?kan ik hierop makkelijk debian instaleren en up to date houden? ik Can I install debian and keep it up to date easily? I > > >?wil hem gaan gebruiken als printerserver en evt apache php en mysql want to use it as print-server and evt apache php and mysql > > >?phpmyadmin phpmyadmin ((translation ambuguity here -- is evt a package or an abbreviation for the Dutch word "eventueel"? -- which means something between "eventual", "possible", and "expected". > > > > > >?ik heb een hardware router voor mijn thuisnetwerkje met (nu) verder I have a hardware router for my home network with (at present) > > >?alleen windows pc's. ??ik heb dus geen router functionaliteit nodig only Windows PCs. So I don't need router functionality > > >?, ook geen ondersteuning voor usb of firewire, exotische nor do I need support for USB, firewire, exotic > > >?randaparatuur of xwindows. ? periperals of xwindows > > >?zou ik die gemakkelijk eruit kunnen halen om schijfruimte te Would I be able to leave these out so save disk space? > > >?besparen? ??? > > > he's got a 486 with a 128 meg hard drive, and three dimm slots with a > total capacity of 48 megs of ram, and would like to know if it's > posssible to install debian and keep it up to date, because he'd like to > use the box as a printserver and/or(?) eventually an apache server, > mysql, etc. he's got a harware router for his home network which > presently consist of only windows boxes. i think that the next sentence > says that he doesn't need router functionality, also no support for usb > or firewire...that's as far as i get. > > sorry, e. tijseling, it's been way too long since the two semesters of > nederlands. this is basically an english list. you might want to try the > german debian list--more likely to find dutch speakers there. Actually, dutch is a quite different language from German, and there is, I believe, still animosity left over from the last war... although perhaps only oming older fold these days. > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: backporting question
On Thu, Nov 20, 2003 at 10:06:53PM +0100, Benedict Verheyen wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: "Colin Watson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2003 3:26 PM > Subject: Re: backporting question > > > > > > Erm, sometimes, but it depends how complicated the dependencies are. > My > > subversion backport requires six other packages as well (apache2, > db4.1, > > neon, swig1.3, tcl8.4, and tk8.4), some of which are needed at > run-time > > and some of which are just needed in order to sort out all the > > build-dependencies. > > > > Backporting is really a development/packaging job, I think, which is > why > > it's not particularly documented for users. It probably can't be - it > > can legitimately be a complicated task. This is why developers who > > produce backports often make them available for others to use. > > Maybe but a lot of people seem to be wanting to use one app or > another on stable. > > > > I'm not sure what the functional difference is between backporting and > > installing from CVS. Backporting gives you a set of .debs, but they're > > built on stable for stable. > > Hhhm. I'm not sure i understand. For exampe: you get unstable source > on a stable environment but you need unstable libs also. Some of the > libs are also needed on runtime so you will end up with unstable > libraries on your system or am i wrong? Why wouldn't you use pinning > then and just install these packages from unstable or does that > pull so many other stuff in that the system becomes unstable instead > of stable? > > > The reason why people backport is generally to avoid having to use > > *core* libraries from unstable (e.g. libc6), not applications. Simply > > installing extra applications shouldn't destabilize a Unix system. > > So the fact that stable is called stable and not unstable is because > of some core libraries and not so much because of the apps? > Is using the latest version of say libc6 such a bigger risk than using > the version say from stable? Or am i mixing stability with risks > here? > > Benedict Forgive me if I'm wrong, but when there are serious differences between various versions of a library, it is necessary to use the version of the library that the application was compiled with. So a binary install will cause trouble, but a recompilation from source might very well succeed when you mix distributions. Couldn't there be some way of identifying which version of a librar something was compiled with so that at run time the correct version can be dynamically selected among a suite of different versions? Does it really need to be impossible to have several versions of one library installed on one system? And if it's not impossible, shouldn't the package system and the run-time loader be aware of this? > > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X won't start
On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 12:19:36AM -0800, Mark Healey wrote: > Now that I have the networking fixed and sort of figured out the mouse > problem I'm ready to tackle X not starting. > > When I boot I get a couple of attempts for gdm to start. After that > fails there is an error message stating > > Fatal server error: > no screens found. > > I tried xf86config and had to abandon it when my video card wasn't > listed. It wasn't listed as an option during the installation > process. I'm assuming that that is the problem. Is it likely? > > I did > > apt-cache search radeon > > and found nothing. > > Am I even going in the right direction? > > I'm attaching the error log and config file > The radeon driver is in the Mandrake (I think 9.0), which autoconfigured X for my Radeon 8500DV usably (but I suspect still no accelleration). (HOwever, it set so many security barriers in the way of networking that I gave up and switched to Debian). The radeon driver, I believe, just on the threshold for sid. I'm using woody, though, with woody's vesa driver in woody. Of course I won't get any acceleration. It does come up with xdm properly, then crashes when I log in. The mouse pointer moves nicely, but it doesn't register clicks. I tried the drivers from ATI, but they did not work. Even the shell script that was supposed to tell me which version of the ATI driver to use crashed, with an error that suggested it wasn't a valid shell script. -- hendrik > > > > - > Please leave this. It is a filter term. > ferulebezel > - > Mark Healey > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Don't bothor CCing or emailing this address. Since spammers seem to be harvesting > this > list anything that doesn't come from the list server is assumed to be spam and > deleted. > ASUS A87V8X mobo w AMD Athalon > Broadcom 4401 onboard nic > with static IP Address > ATI All-In-Wonder 9700 Video card. > Sampo Alphascan 17mx monitor -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X won't start
On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 11:17:04AM -0800, Mark Healey wrote: > On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 11:22:03 -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 12:19:36AM -0800, Mark Healey wrote: > >> Now that I have the networking fixed and sort of figured out the mouse > >> problem I'm ready to tackle X not starting. > >> > >> When I boot I get a couple of attempts for gdm to start. After that > >> fails there is an error message stating > >> > >> Fatal server error: > >> no screens found. > >> > >> I tried xf86config and had to abandon it when my video card wasn't > >> listed. It wasn't listed as an option during the installation > >> process. I'm assuming that that is the problem. Is it likely? > >> > >> I did > >> > >> apt-cache search radeon > >> > >> and found nothing. > >> > >> Am I even going in the right direction? > >> > >> I'm attaching the error log and config file > >> > > > >The radeon driver is in the Mandrake (I think 9.0), which autoconfigured > >X for my Radeon 8500DV usably (but I suspect still no accelleration). > >(HOwever, it set so many security barriers in the way of networking that > >I gave up and switched to Debian). The radeon driver, I believe, just > >on the threshold for sid. I'm using woody, though, with woody's > >vesa driver in woody. Of course I won't get any acceleration. > >It does come up with xdm properly, then crashes when I log in. > >The mouse pointer moves nicely, but it doesn't register clicks. > > > >I tried the drivers from ATI, but they did not work. Even the shell script > >that was supposed to tell me which version of the ATI driver to use > >crashed, with an error that suggested it wasn't a valid shell script. > > Where is this ATI driver? All I could find were some RPMs. Those are the ones. You have to haul them through alien, and apparently there are compatibility problems even after you have done so -- different versions of files that occur in other Debian packages and so forth. My current problems may be because I still have ghosts of those drivers on my system. -- hendrik > > > - > Please leave this. It is a filter term. > ferulebezel > - > Mark Healey > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Don't bothor CCing or emailing this address. Since spammers seem to be harvesting > this > list anything that doesn't come from the list server is assumed to be spam and > deleted. > ASUS A87V8X mobo w AMD Athalon > Broadcom 4401 onboard nic > with static IP Address > ATI All-In-Wonder 9700 Video card. > Sampo Alphascan 17mx monitor > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: X won't start
On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 02:37:34PM -0800, Mark Healey wrote: > On Sat, 29 Nov 2003 14:58:01 -0600, Kent West wrote: > > >On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 12:19:36AM -0800, Mark Healey wrote: > >> Now that I have the networking fixed and sort of figured out the mouse > >> problem I'm ready to tackle X not starting. > > > > > >Perhaps I missed it, but I never saw what your fix was. Don't leave us > >hanging . . . . > > > >(By posting the solution you might also be helping somoe future aarchive > >searcher.) > > For the networking I installed the appropriate kernel headers and > created a symbolic link "linux" to them in the /usr/src since I > couldn't figure out how to merge them with the actual source tree. I > then just compiled and installed the nic drivers. > > The mouse problem is related to my KVM switch. I bypassed it and gdm > worked fine. It is worrying that this is a problem since Windows, > Redhat 9 and knoppix have no problem with it. Somewhere in the chain > between the physical mouse port /dev/psaux some piece of software is > deciding that there is no mouse attached. I did post this one. > > I don't know if you are part of the debian team or not but I'm going > to make a suggestion to you anyway. > > It would be nice to have some kind of archive where people, once a > problem is resolved could post a writeup of their solution. They > could pare out the failed attempts and irrelevant comments. I'm > already doing it on paper for my own problems. > > What would be really neat would to create a sort of evolving > electronic bubble chart type program. For example: > > Problem: no mouse action. > > "Do you have a KVM switch? [y/n]" > > A "y" would take the user to > > "Bypass the KVM switch and reboot" > "Do you now have mouse action? [y/n]" > > A "y" would take you to a congratulations page. > A "n" would take you to a software diagnostics branch. > > A "n" would take you to a software diagnostics branch. > > Of course a real life one would much more elaborate than this. There is a wiki, which could perhaps serve this function... Presumably someone knows where it is? I seem to remember it is mentioned in the regular newbie post on this list. -- hendrik > > > > > - > Please leave this. It is a filter term. > ferulebezel > - > Mark Healey > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Don't bothor CCing or emailing this address. Since spammers seem to be harvesting > this > list anything that doesn't come from the list server is assumed to be spam and > deleted. > ASUS A87V8X mobo w AMD Athalon > Broadcom 4401 onboard nic > with static IP Address > ATI All-In-Wonder 9700 Video card. > Sampo Alphascan 17mx monitor > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: radeon and X: was X won't start: Resolved
On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 04:28:08PM -0600, David Meiser wrote: > Mark, > > I laugh that you say it sounds geek. If anything, I am contra-geek, a > masters student in Theology with barely any technical know-how other > than how to slap a computer together. He said greek, not geek. Being in theology, if it happens to be Christion theology, you should probably know greek. But, in a sense you are right. It wasn't greek. It was geek. -- hendrik > > Peace, > DAVE > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 21:19:37 -0600, David Meiser wrote: > > > > > > > >>Personally, "Give up" isn't in my vocab. Here's what you do (and what > >>worked for me on my Radeon 8500): > >>1) download/compile/install a 2.6.0 series kernel, modularizing the > >>Direct Rendering stuff for Radeon, and AGPGART, and whatever your > >>motherboard and processor specific setup is > >> > >> > > > >Since most of this is greek I think my plan of wating for a package is > >best. See? gReek. Although the character set is wrong for greek. > > > >- > >Please leave this. It is a filter term. > >ferulebezel > >- > >Mark Healey > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Don't bothor CCing or emailing this address. Since spammers seem to be > >harvesting this > >list anything that doesn't come from the list server is assumed to be spam > >and deleted. > >ASUS A87V8X mobo w AMD Athalon > > Broadcom 4401 onboard nic > > with static IP Address > >ATI All-In-Wonder 9700 Video card. > > Sampo Alphascan 17mx monitor > > > > > > > > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT] voting (was: Slashdot and media accuracy (was Re: Improved Debian Project Emergency Communications))
On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 01:29:31PM -0700, Monique Y. Herman wrote: > On Thu, 04 Dec 2003 at 17:56 GMT, Paul Johnson penned: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 > > > > On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 07:13:33PM +0800, David Palmer. wrote: > >> Put all politicians on a wage of $500.00/week, and make it a capital > >> offense to take a political bribe, and you would get the ones that > >> want to do the job for the right reasons. > > > > Would also encourage just random people to get a job as a politician > > because it would be a reasonable income. > > > > Friends of mine postulated the idea of having "politician duty" in much > the same was as we have jury duty ... you get a letter one day telling > you it's your turn to serve. Pretty sure this was done in at least one > ancient govt ... think it was Athens. > > "Random people" have a much better chance of aligning with my interests > than politicians. The fact is, anyone who's willing to put themselves > and their family through the torture that is a politician's life by > definition does not share my values. I hear that British COlumbia is planning to use a random scheme to select members of the commission that is going to propose a mechanism for proportional representation or other more equitable election system. The result to be ratified in a referendum. -- hendrik > > -- > monique > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
defence against the dark arts
I've occasionally wondered about upgrading from servers, which may have been conmpromised... What if the package-upgrader had an option to wait a week after downloading to actually perform the upgrade? Then there would be an opportunity to cancel the upgrade in case news of compromise got out. Of course, it would not help against undetected compromises... -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Info Problem
On Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 04:58:26PM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: > on Mon, Dec 08, 2003 at 10:59:01PM +, Colin Watson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 05, 2003 at 08:33:22AM -0800, Karsten M. Self wrote: > > > > As does DocBook and man. Deprecating man in favor of Info is _not_ > > > acceptable. Period. Nor does it meet Debian policy. > > > > The latter isn't an argument, I'd note, more an observation of fact. > > The rest of the world doesn't have to follow Debian policy, and we can > > change it if we think it's a good idea to do so. (Not that I think > > that in this case, as 'apt-cache show man-db' should indicate.) > > ;-) > > > > > > I've spoken to Brad Kuhn about this specifically. > > > > ISTR speaking to him about it once myself, but can't remember the > > outcome. Did you get anywhere? > > Well, for values of "anywhere" equalling "take it up with Richard", yes. > But no specific movement. Among the reasons for polishing my man vs. > info debate was preparation for a formal proposal. Which still hasn't > happened. But could. Think it's worth a try? > > > > The GNU project's attitude to man pages is one of the reasons why I > > decided that man-db should not be a GNU package, the other being that > > copyright assignments would be a headache since one of the former > > maintainers is dead. > > Yes, but dead men contest no bug reports ;-) > > On a more practical note: copyright would pass to the estate and heirs. > It's possible (not necessarially easy) to get assignments in this case. It may depend on how they are approached. presenting it as something he did for the good of all that will live on might work... On the other hand, I get the idea that you do *not* want copyright assigned to GNU, so maybe you're right. Maybe it's better to list things lie. On the other hand, getting the things he wrote declared to be in the public domain might be OK. I don't know what jurisdiction he was in, but in the United States I'm told that copyright reverts to the widow upon an author's death, to such an extent that she can renegotiate all publication contracts! I wonder what that would do to copylefted stuff... -- hendrik > The GNU project also prefers assignments, but hasn't been 100% hard-line > on pursuing them in all cases (mostly to their regret). This based on > conversations with Eben. > > > Peace. > > -- > Karsten M. Self <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://kmself.home.netcom.com/ > What Part of "Gestalt" don't you understand? > STATE OF THE ART Expensive, loud and fragile. Occasionally functions for > brief periods. In computer hardware terms, the "art" may be pottery > - l'Inq http://www.theinquirer.net/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
keeping woody
I have a machine running woody and another running sargs. When the big switchover comes, I want the woody machine to continue running woody and not follow stable to a big change to sarge. Oh -- I will eventually change to sarge, but at a time of my choosing, and with suitable parallel operation: this machine is in use 18/6, if not 24/7. How do I set it up to make sure I stay with woody and do not automatically upgrad to the new stable? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: (OT) Re: Godel
On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 01:25:09AM -0800, Tom wrote: > On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 10:11:39AM +0100, Nicos Gollan wrote: > > On Sun, 30 Nov 2003 00:00:05 -0800 > > Tom <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Once somebody disproves Godel I will rest easy... > > > > The one(s) doing this wouldn't survive the lynching parties the > > theoreticians would start, and AFAIK, the Goedel stuff is rather well > > proven. So don't hold your breath. > > > > Good. I was hoping someone smart would speak up. (I was a lousy > mathematician which is why I switched to computers. Much easier.) > > I accept Godel. Does it matter much in day to day life? Or is it just > something not to worry about. It's something not to worry about, unless your day-to-day life involves proving a lot of theorems, especially using computers to perform the proof steps absolutely rigorously, and furthermore you want to prove that the rules of proof are correct, and complete, and consistent, and so on and on and on... > > I mean, life goes on, but if Godel is true, I kind of just keep waiting > for the train to derail (and it usually does). Is it an important > result? How does one sleep at night :-) ? Trains aren't formal deductive systems, even thought they have schedules, they do or don;t run o time, and Godel's theorem has othing much to say about them. > > This is just one of those little things that I worry about... > In real life truth is much less absolute. It's determined by trial an error, and that's how science works. People who are sufficiently obsessive-compulsive about Truth end up retreating in mathematics where truth can be absolutely controlled -- after all, you decide on the axioms and rules of deduction, hey? BUT, what they lose when they crawl into the hole of formalist mathemetics (I've been there): Does their mathematics have anything to so with the real world? Are their rules true in any sensible sense, or do they define their own truth independent of any external purpose? The first wuestion can not be answered withing their system -- it requires reference to the real world. The second question is addressed by Godel's theorem, which says, in essence, that if their rules are such that all their deductions yield truth (whatever that is), then their rules are not complete. So there's always something more to discover, and no set of rules is enough to decide what is dicoverable. And another issue that mathematicians tend to sweep under the rug. If you look at the history of mathematics, you sill find that the rules of deduction, the axioms that they start with, the socially accepted norms of presenting mathematical results, have themselves been determined by trial and error through the ages. It's just astonishing that the mathematics that has eveolved is as powerful as it turns out to be, and apparently also consistent. Even now there are controversies. There is a whole school of thought (constructivism) that rejects proof by contradiction. There are other mathematicians that reject the axiom of choice altogether, and instead treat Solovay's conjecture as an axiom: that all real-calued functions on the reals are measurable. That's inconsistent with the axion of choice, but if you're doing analysus, it's a lot more useful tnan the axiom of choice. Yes, there's no set of rules to decide what is discoverable, what is true. There's only a sense of what convinces people and what is useful. It has nothing to do with trains derailing, though, as far as I know. -- hendrik > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A Republican!!!!!! (was Re: OT: sponge burning!)
On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 07:44:12PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: > > 'sides, it still cracks me up every time some environmentalist says the > electric car is "clean". Yeah, because, you know, the power grid won't need > dozens of new plants to take over for the energy the cars are now not > individually producing. *eyeroll* The hope is that large, well-engineered, monitored power plants can produce energy in a cleaner way than small, internal-combustion engines. Whether this is true is a matter of fact -- doesn anyone know the relevant facts here? (Not to mention the energy losses in the transmission of energy from the power plant to the wheels, of course) -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A Republican!!!!!! (was Re: OT: sponge burning!)
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 07:52:17PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: > > The irony is that there are some eco groups that are fighting wind farms. > Why? Because they are a blight on the natural look of the land. No, not > kidding. Centuries ago, when Holland started building windmills, they were hotly controversial, a blight on the countryside. Now there are preservationist societies dedicated to preserving the lovely windmills, and each one that burns up or falls apart is considered a major cultural loss. - hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a dumb query? pls humor me
On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 04:03:43PM -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: > > > > We really are off topic now aren't we? > > > > Off-topic from an off-topic thread? What an oxymoron. Well, the thread is entitled "Re: a dumb query? pls humor me" -- hendrik > > And yeah, teachers always say that we'll be switching to the metric > system but it will never happen. I'm still in high school and my economics > teacher says that all of the time. I heard the US switched to the metric system some time ago, and that the inch is now *defined* as 2.54 cm as a transition measure. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: REALLY OT: News Flash
On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 05:40:03PM -0800, Michael M. wrote: > On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 17:14 -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: > > > I've only used Mutt for a day or so now, and I like to do more productive > > things with my time than learn random acronyms. But thanks for filling > > me in, that's one I'll be sure to not forget. > > > Sometimes I think Linux is nothing but random acronyms. Usually > recursive, random acronyms. You mean RRA's? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: REALLY OT: News Flash
On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 03:08:23PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: > Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: > > He > > claims that religious people are stupid and basically use ancient texts > > are a crutch. > > Well, don't you? I mean you cherry pick the nice bits and reject the > nasty. > > > Nevermind that the Chrisitan nation of the USA (it was > > founded as a Christian nation by Christians) has developed far more > > scientific advancement than the oh-so-enlightened athiest USSR ever > > could have hoped. > > Nevermind that the founding fathers were not Christian, did not form a > Christian state and that 90%+ of all scientists in the US are Atheist. I thought it was only about 75%... -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: REALLY OT: News Flash
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 12:13:23PM -0800, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 02:24:04PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 05:40:03PM -0800, Michael M. wrote: > > > On Sun, 2007-02-25 at 17:14 -0500, Michael Pobega wrote: > > > > > > > I've only used Mutt for a day or so now, and I like to do more > > > > productive > > > > things with my time than learn random acronyms. But thanks for filling > > > > me in, that's one I'll be sure to not forget. > > > > > > > > > Sometimes I think Linux is nothing but random acronyms. Usually > > > recursive, random acronyms. > > > > You mean RRA's? > > RRA = Recursive RRA Acronyms OOps. I should have said RRRA's. Random Recursive RRA acronyms. > > A -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: sponge burning!
On Mon, Feb 26, 2007 at 04:29:29PM -0600, cothrige wrote: > * Ron Johnson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > I was just having this discussion the other day. Legal killing is > > *not* murder. > > I would certainly say that lawful killing is not murder, but might not > agree with the specific choice of legal. Legal would imply the laws > of the land, whereas lawful would be more broad. What is legal in > this country, i.e. certain killing, may not be lawful if one accepts > a higher law. Many, myself included, would believe that many killings > which are in fact completely legal are still in opposition to the > Divine law. That is why abortion is murder, even though it is legal. > > That is my take on it. > > Patrick I believe the distinction between "legal" and "lawful" is this: legal -- pertaining to law lawful -- according to law thus a self-defence killing may be lawful, but it in not legal. A law-court may be legal, but if the judge and jury are crooked it will not be operating lawfully. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: REALLY OT: News Flash
On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 12:19:13AM +1300, Chris Bannister wrote: > On Sun, Feb 25, 2007 at 05:22:33PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > > 1. "God has always been." > > > > 2. "All matter/energy Just Appeared." It turns out that when you add the mass of the matter in the universe to the gravitational potential energy (which happens to be negative), that the sum of the two is "suspiciously close to zero" (to quota a famous physicist whose name I can't remember). -- hendrik > > > > Which is more fantastical? > > > > Even I, an atheist, think that #2 is more fantastical. > > Maybe you're agnostic? > > -- > Chris. > == > Don't forget to check that your /etc/apt/sources.lst entries point to > etch and not testing, otherwise you may end up with a broken system once > etch goes stable. > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: REALLY OT: News Flash
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 01:38:15AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: > On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 10:01:46PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: > > Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: > > > Correct. So, according to the Bible, the Muslims are just as wrong > > > anyone else. > > > > Missed the point there, Roberto. According to the Quran *you* are just > > as > > wrong as anyone else. > > > OK. You are right in that I missed your point. However, the Muslims > revere Jesus as a great teacher. But according to their views, he was > also a blasphemer (one of the greatest offenses against Allah in Islam) > since he claimed to be God (though I think that they conveniently left > that out of the Quran). Just where did Jesus claim to be God? I've heard lost of people say that Jesus was God, but I haven't seen the place where Jesus himself claims it. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: REALLY OT: News Flash
On Tue, Feb 27, 2007 at 05:50:39PM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: > On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 12:26:53AM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: > > > > Not necessarily, they can all be right: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nathan_the_Wise > > > > Actually, the can't all be right: > > "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man > cometh unto the Father, but by me." -- John 14:6 In the output of the Jesus Seminar, this line is printed in the copour reserved for "Jesus did not say this; it represents the persoective or content of a later or different tradition." -- hendrik > > So, if you believe Jesus, then the others *must* be wrong (excepting the > OT Jews, which were under The Law). Of you don't believe Jesus, you can > just believe whatever makes you feel good. > > Regards, > > -Roberto > > -- > Roberto C. Sanchez > http://people.connexer.com/~roberto > http://www.connexer.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: who/what uses my CPU?
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 10:42:51AM -0500, Andrew Perrin wrote: > >From man top: > > wa -- iowait > Amount of time the CPU has been waiting for I/O to complete. In other words, the CPU is idling, waiting for something to do. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: REALLY OT: News Flash
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 08:40:55AM -0600, Kent West wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >It turns out that when you add the mass of the matter in the universe ... > > It is my understanding that physicists don't know how much matter is in > the universe. They don't see enough to account for what's needed in > their cosmological theories, and therefore they throw in some magic > fairy dust called "dark matter". The reason they call it "dark" is > because they can't see it, but it _must_ be there in order for their > theories to work. > > Note that I'm not saying dark matter does not exist; I'm merely saying > that they really don't know how much matter is in the universe. My info was from before all the dark matter theorizing, without magic fairy dust. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: REALLY OT: News Flash
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 09:04:28AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: > On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 08:46:21AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > Just where did Jesus claim to be God? I've heard lost of people say > > that Jesus was God, but I haven't seen the place where Jesus himself > > claims it. > > > > "Jesus saith unto him, I am the Way, the truth, and the life: no man > cometh unto Father, but by me." - John 14:6 This one's not so clear, the Father seems separate from Jesus here. > > "I and my Father are one." - John 10:30 Much clearer! > > "Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, > but on him that sent me. And He that seeth me seeth him that sent > me." - John 12:44-45 > > Those are just out of John. There are lots more in the other Gospels. > > Regards, > > -Roberto Thanks. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Free Physics Textbook (was: Re: REALLY OT: News Flash)
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 04:37:06PM -0800, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 05:46:15PM -0600, Cybe R. Wizard wrote: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: > > > It turns out that when you add the mass of the matter in the universe > > > to the gravitational potential energy (which happens to be negative), > > > that the sum of the two is "suspiciously close to zero" (to quota a > > > famous physicist whose name I can't remember). > > > > Hmm, the universe as one of a pair of virtual particles on the event > > horizon of a /whale/ of a black hole... > > That has possibilities. I started to type, "real possibilities," but > > what does that /mean/ in this context? > > I was thinking that too, but didn't have the guts. How about the > universe as one particle of the two created in vacuum... can't > remember what the term is but a particle and anti-particle randomly > appearing and then anniahilating each other shortly thereafter. pair creation and annihilation > what > is that called? null-point energy? > zero-point energy For more fun, have a look at Motion Mountain, the free textbook of physics: http://www.motionmountain.net/ Yes, you need the math to understand *all* of it. But there are lots of expository passages, even chapters, that explain the point of all the rest, rather then presenting it in highly technical fashion. Though there is the technical stuff, too, for those that want it. Look at random chapters; they're diverse in style. -- hendrik > A -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Free Physics Textbook (was: Re: REALLY OT: News Flash)
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 05:34:37PM -0800, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 08:26:42PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > physics: > > > > http://www.motionmountain.net/ > > > > cool thanks You are very welcome. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a dumb query? pls humor me
On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 02:28:20AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > > Point being that the momentum of a meatbag traveling at 120kph is > much higher than that of one going at 95kph Technically, it's the energy of the meatbag that measures the likely damage. energy varies as the square of velocity, whereas momentum varies linearly. So it;s even worse. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A Republican!!!!!! (was Re: OT: sponge burning!)
On Wed, Feb 28, 2007 at 09:35:09PM -0800, Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > > And actually, if we had the means to turn over our vehicle fleet to an > all electric option, that would be okay because we could then affor > dto rent the long-range car for those times we need it. I once tried to rent a van for vacation. It turned out to be impossible unless I had reserved it almost a year in advance. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: sponge burning!
On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 07:39:17PM -0800, David E. Fox wrote: > On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 08:23:10 -0600 > Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > If you're thinking of the Roman Church's stricture against Onanism, > > well, Augustine had more than one weird idea. > > Big misconception (pardon the pun) about that... > > Onanism isn't masturbation, it's coitus interruptus. More specifically, it's refusing to make your brother's widow pregnant. How times have changed. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Audio recording hardware
On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 02:30:26PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 03/01/07 13:44, Andrew Perrin wrote: > > On Thu, 1 Mar 2007, Andrei Popescu wrote: > >> On Wed, 28 Feb 2007 22:11:04 -0600 > >> "Russell L. Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >>> * Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070228 18:21]: > [snip] > > http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/furutech/rd1.html > > > > But I have to say that it strikes me as quite bizarre, frankly. The idea > > is that somehow magnetization of impurities in the label and aluminum > > layers will cause the laser to fail more frequently, thereby invoking > > Since when does aluminum get magnetized? Since they started mixing it with nickel and cobalt. I doubt they do this with CDs, though. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Audio recording hardware
On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 03:57:53PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 03/01/07 15:36, Andrei Popescu wrote: > > On Thu, 01 Mar 2007 14:28:57 -0600 > > Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > >>> For all you non-believers (sorry, too much religion in recent > >>> threads) here is a similar article: > >>> > >>> http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/furutech/rd2.html > >> Just because some some snob audiophile says we must degauss > >> *optical* media in order to get "realm of gestalt" better sound, > >> doesn't mean it's true. > > > > 1. I didn't say it's true, just that I read about it. > > 2. Try to explain to a non-geek the differences between vim and emacs. > > Simple: One is a text editor, the other is an operating system. And a pretty decent operating system it was, too, in the days of text-only CRTs. -- hendrik P.S. I appreciate the attempt to bring this thread back on topic! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: What's the best way to backup to dvd?
On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 09:12:17AM -0800, Bob McGowan wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > >-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > >Hash: SHA1 > > > >On 03/01/07 03:00, steef wrote: > >>Ron Johnson wrote: > >>On 03/01/07 01:14, Joe Hart wrote: > >[snip] > >>yes! that went perfect for two years. last week we lost many electronic > >>data of our (small) business because essent (energy-producer and > >>distributor) failed for five minutes while i was backing up to another > >>hd in the same machine. so: i am repairing all (two weeks work) and i > >>*will* use not-rewritable dvd's because they seem maybe more than a hd > >>independent of external factors. > >>(this is not completely true of course; like most statements). > > > >Good: your business did regular backups! > > > >*REALLY BAD*: your business did regular backups to the same media!! > > > >_Always_ have multiple backup media and rotate between them. (The > >"enterprise" learned that decades ago during the era of 9-track > >tapes, which were prone to read and write failures. > > > > > >-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- > >Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > > > >iD8DBQFF5thKS9HxQb37XmcRAogkAKCo/QkutJttuHLHUFvMcebySpuENgCeJpjy > >ItY61luQGgJCLqLto3G9jLc= > >=WVUn > >-END PGP SIGNATURE- > > > > > > Shouldn't the answer to the general question of backup media include the > concept of 'archival'? I've always considered the questions of backup and archiving to be orthogonal, even though the tools used are often the same. If you don't back up your archive, you risk losing it. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: static IP
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 04:44:41AM -0800, Jordi wrote: > And Andrei: > > If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. > > (Albert Einstein) > > That is a very good point. > When I had time (when will that happen??) I would like to make a site > for people using Linux not to suicide trying to understand it, as many > things are much simpler that it seems reading some articles, at least > for most of the users. > > Jordi There's a project starting to document Linux for beginners, *real* beginners. It started its discussions on this mailing list, then moved to debian-doc. Have a look. You might be able to contribute, even if you don't have time to do it all. -- hendrik > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Firestarter VS Shorewall
On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 09:25:33PM +0100, Joe Hart wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > Juergen Fiedler wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 08:41:10AM -0800, Jordi wrote: > >> Hello > >> > >> I saw two good firewalls: > >> - Firestarter wich is easy > >> - Shorewall wich seems versatile > >> > >> Wich is best for a single server pc? Does the complexity of shorewall > >> worth the effort or is firestarter as good as shorewall? > > > > The fact that Firestarter has a GUI tipped the scales for me - towards > > Shorewall. While it may be nice to do the initial setup in a GUI, > > being able to make modifications from anywhere over SSH has proven > > valuable enough to justify the initial learning curve. And once you > > 'got it', Shorewall isn't actually that hard to work with. > > > > Just my 2 cents > > --j > > Firestarter and Shorewall are both just front-ends to iptables, but > firestarter is simple (and has far less features than shorewall). > > Shorewall does appear complicated, but in fact, the examples only need > minor editing for use. > > You could just use iptables directly, but _that_ is complicated. I've never had any problem using iptables directly -- except when I upgraded from woody to sarge -- suddenly there was a firewall of sorts introduced by default and I couln't get anything to work until I tracked it down in /etc and removed it. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SOLVED] Re: sound in iceweasel
On Thu, Mar 01, 2007 at 05:49:26PM +, andy wrote: > > > Thanks for the help - have fixed it. It was a combo of not having the > latest flash plugin (now fixed with flashplugin-nonfree) and adjusting > the /etc/iceweasel/iceweaselrc file as was suggested with reference to > Mozilla. Would you mind posting just exactly what you did to the /etc/iceweasel/iceweaselrc file? -- hendrik > > Now fixed, except for when the site requires something proprietary. > > Cheers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: CMS for server
On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 04:47:00AM -0800, Jordi wrote: > Thanks friends > > I though my message was not going to be published. > If someone thinks it is offtopic sorry, just don't answer me. > But as sometimes I see messages talking about winning money sending > emails or enlarging their penis, I thought that 'cos many of you run > servers and thus maybe you know good cms or will be good for you to > compare them, I could get good advice on this. > > Just answer or ignore me, please. I didn't wanted to polemize. Your question was on topic (presuming you're looking for a CMS on a Debian system -- or else that you are a Debian user). It's the messages talking about winning money sending emails or enlarging their penis that are off-topic. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [OT]
On Fri, Mar 02, 2007 at 03:24:46PM -0500, Celejar wrote: > On Fri, 2 Mar 2007 10:37:55 -0800 > Raquel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > [snip] > > > -- > > Raquel > > > > The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is > > the first and only legitimate object of good government. > > --Thomas Jefferson > > Straightforward enough at first glance, but what happens when the 'care > of [some] human life and happiness' requires the destruction of [other] > 'human life and happiness'? That's when government gtes difficult. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Firestarter VS Shorewall
On Sat, Mar 03, 2007 at 11:19:02PM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: > > 70MB is *huge* amount of data to install *only* to have a gui. IMHO > firestarter is only useful if you already have X installed, though this > is a bad idea on a server. You could run X on another system. People tend to forget that X is a networked protocol. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
separating x client from x server (was: Firestarter VS Shorewall)
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 02:51:48AM +0100, Andreas Duffner wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >You could run X on another system. People tend to forget that X is a > >networked protocol. > > mmm. I am not sure we are talking about the same thing. > If yes.. then I'd like to learn how to do it the other way. > > But to be sure I will tell how I see it. If you still think otherways, > please point me to some docu. Or at least say so. That would be cool. > > > What I think, how it is (not sure though) > To export the display of a program you need > a running X-Server at the computer where the display will > point to. Right, > And where the program runs, You don't need an X server where the program runs. The X server is the thing that provides the display. > you need some X-files > (no, not the ones with the small grey things from ufos), > some stuff from X, too. > > That is the reason why I talk about ca. 70 MB. > FireStarter is small. But to start the gui, the > system wants some other files. > At least, I thought so until now. > > When I say "apt-get install firestarter" it will > get firestart + needed files. > And if I have no X related files there, it starts to > download lots of them. > > Do I understand you right, that I do not have to > download these X-files, if I intend to export the display > to another computer ? > > That would be really nice. That's right. The program you're running *is* the X client, and it needs an X server to display its stuff on. Usually it uses the DISPLAY environment variable to find it. I used to do this all the time in my full-time job circa 1990. I had my program, the window manager, and the display all running on different machines. However, since then people have become much more paranoid about security, and now there a hoops you have to jump through to break down the security barriers to get this to work. Can anyone enlighten me about the details of doing this on a closed LAN where there are no particular security problems? One way that is apparently compatible with today's paranoia appears to be to use an option on ssh (I believe it's ssh -X) to get ssh to carry the X protocol. I'm not sure of the details, except that it appears to require configuration on both the client and server side. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a dumb query? pls humor me
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 07:04:13PM -0800, Freddy Freeloader wrote: > If we do go socialistic this nation will have abandoned what made it > great. I hope you do notice that the further we move toward socialism > the more our country has declined in both moral fiber and in respect by > the rest of the world. We became great because anyone had a chance to > work and make it on their own, not by promising everyone that the state > would run every aspect of their lives. In fact, immigrants came here > because they state didn't interfere with their lives. Being rom the rest of the world, I have been losing respect for the United States because it fails to ensure a minimum standard of living for its people, and sends out armies to interfere in how the rest of the world runs its lives. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a dumb query? pls humor me
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 10:31:21PM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: > On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 10:09:43PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > > Being rom the rest of the world, I have been losing respect for the > > United States because it fails to ensure a minimum standard of living > > for its people, and sends out armies to interfere in how the rest of the > > world runs its lives. > > > See, and I have been losing respect for the rest of world for > interfering too much in people's daily lives and sitting idly by (or > providing only token participation) while the US protects them and > renders massive aid to the victims of natural disaster. > I was specifically replying to Freddy Freeloader's words "has declined ... in respect by the rest of the world." -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a dumb query? pls humor me
On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 07:46:21PM -0800, Freddy Freeloader wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >On Sun, Mar 04, 2007 at 07:04:13PM -0800, Freddy Freeloader wrote: > > > > > >>If we do go socialistic this nation will have abandoned what made it > >>great. I hope you do notice that the further we move toward socialism > >>the more our country has declined in both moral fiber and in respect by > >>the rest of the world. We became great because anyone had a chance to > >>work and make it on their own, not by promising everyone that the state > >>would run every aspect of their lives. In fact, immigrants came here > >>because they state didn't interfere with their lives. > >> > > > >Being rom the rest of the world, I have been losing respect for the > >United States because it fails to ensure a minimum standard of living > >for its people, and sends out armies to interfere in how the rest of the > >world runs its lives. > > > >-- hendrik > > > > > > > > What does your personal internal paradigm have to do with how we > Americans think our government should act, and what we perceive to be > the best form of government for ourselves? Nothing. You're the one who brought up what "the rest of the world" thinks. I'm part of the rest of the world. > That's about as irrelevant > as me telling you how Sweden should be run. > > Should I be telling everyone on this mailing list that I think Sweden's > form of government is ludicrous and that I long ago lost respect for it, > and its people, because it basically takes 75% of its citizens earnings > as taxes and has created a citizenry that dependent on their government > and sucks off the government's teat rather than being responsible for > themselves? You can if you want, but I don't see a point. Sweden's population seems think Sweden is functioning quite well. That's what matters to them.. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a dumb query? pls humor me
On Mon, Mar 05, 2007 at 09:36:09AM -0800, Paul Johnson wrote: > > It's a little disingenious to hide behind the success of World War II to > whitewash over the utter failure of every military action since. Not *every* military action ... Are you foirgetting the invasion of Grenada? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a dumb query? pls humor me
On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 10:46:03AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: > > > Yup. You can blame that on your precious UN. Bush's hands were > basically tied by a resolution that was written with language only > authorizing the liberation of Kuwait, when it should have called for the > ouster of Saddam Hussein. I believe I heard that the first Bush, in his book on the first Gulf war, wrote that he was not in favour of occupying Iraq because there was no viable exit strategy. W's war seems to indicate he was right. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A Republican!!!!!! (was Re: OT: sponge burning!)
On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:51:36PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > I also question your statement that everything after Chicago is > no good. For example Boston has about 390,000 passenger trips per year. > The combined population of Boston, Cambridge, and Somerville (the three > largest users) is about 735,000. Did I misunderstand or did you miswrite? 390,000 trips per year would be reached if slightly over half that population took just one trip a year. - hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A Republican!!!!!! (was Re: OT: sponge burning!)
On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 02:39:37PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On 6 Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:51:36PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > >> I also question your statement that everything after Chicago is > >> no good. For example Boston has about 390,000 passenger trips per > >> year. The combined population of Boston, Cambridge, and Somerville > >> (the three largest users) is about 735,000. > > > > Did I misunderstand or did you miswrite? 390,000 trips per year would > > be reached if slightly over half that population took just one trip a > > year. > > > > - hendrik > > > > > > My bad. That should be 390,000,000 trips. The population number > is correct. That's better. But hey, what are a few orders of magnitude between friends, anyway? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: a dumb query? pls humor me
On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 09:10:26PM -0800, Steve Lamb wrote: > Paul Johnson wrote: > > s. keeling wrote: > >> This is a ridiculous statement. I've met a few who did. All > >> Canadians, regardless of their position in the scheme of things have > >> two choices: accept what you're offered by those in control, or cross > >> the border and pay for it and get it, for a price. Here, paying more > >> to get it is considered "two tiered healthcare", and "queue jumping." > > > At least Canadians have that option. If you're American, whether or not you > > can afford it, it's only available for a price. > > *snicker* So, Paul, tell me... what will happen to the Canadian's choice > if America goes socialized as well? I mean you just said it's a good thing > they have a choice. If we remove that choice then they would be worse off, > no? > > > The bottom line is on both sides of the border there just isn't enough > > doctors with the right specialties to go around, how it gets paid for > > really doesn't change that. > > Except for the fact that Canadian doctors are coming down here to make > more. Free Market forces pretty much help that whereas your socialist > policies would not. And a fair number are coming back because they've discovered they like to be free to treat patients as medically required without consulting their patients' bank accounts first. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: A Republican!!!!!! (was Re: OT: sponge burning!)
On Wed, Mar 07, 2007 at 08:21:04AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On 6 Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 02:39:37PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> On 6 Mar, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> > On Tue, Mar 06, 2007 at 12:51:36PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >> >> > >> ... > >> > >> My bad. That should be 390,000,000 trips. The population > >> number is correct. > > > > That's better. But hey, what are a few orders of magnitude between > > friends, anyway? > > > > > > You're not a theoretical chemist or physicist, are you? :-) No, but I first heard that line from a physics professor! -- hendrik > > -Chris > > > | Christopher Judd, Ph. D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] | > > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
no executable in gtk-gnutella package for i386-etch
When I install gtk-gnutella, it installs just fine, except that afterward there is no usr/bin/gtk-gnutella file. even though http://packages.debian.org/cgi-bin/search_contents.pl?searchmode=filelist&word=gtk-gnutella&version=unstable&arch=i386&page=1&number=50 says there is such a file. This happens when, in etch on an i386, I (1) change my /etc/apt/sources.list to point to sid instead of etch (2) run aptitude, u, and install gtk-gnutella It installs and aptitude later reports it is installed. (3) put /etc/apt/sources back to etch to prevent accidental mass upgrade. On the amd64 etch platform, though, this procedure works, and gives me a properly executable /usr/bin/gtk-gnutella Is this a known problem? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Firefox entry prediction crashes
When I enter URLs or Google search terms in the text boxes near the top of an Iceweasel window, it drops down a menu of guesses as to what I'm going to type next. I could do without its guesses. Especially because sometimes when it does this it freezes the entire user interface (I'm running icewm, by the way). Ths only way to continue seems to be to kill iceweasel. This can be easy if I happen to have a shell window open and I can still give it keyboard focus (killall firefox-bin works), but if not, the only way out seems to be control-alt-backspace. Now this is presumably a bug in iceweasel, and may have been fixed in versions that haven't made it into etch (I'm running an up-to-date etch on an 32-bit AMD system). But rather than wait forever, is there some way I can suppress the feature -- I really don't need the proposed autocompletions. Perhaps an option in an configuration file, or in one of firefox's maze of configuration menus? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: C++ exception handling question [solved]
On Mon, Nov 13, 2006 at 12:58:58PM -0700, Paul E Condon wrote: > On Mon, Nov 13, 2006 at 02:05:20PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 13, 2006 at 10:41:52AM -0700, Paul E Condon wrote: > > > > > > I'm not a professional programmer, so my standards of reasonableness > > > are not tempered by 'real world' experience. I use C++ to write > > > simulation code for my research in biodiversity. It seems to me, from > > > reading the doc.s, that realloc() should be used in the situation that > > > you describe. It is possible to keep track of all places in the code > > > that new objects are brought into use and check if space is available > > > within the previously allocate block, and then use realloc() to expand > > > the allocation if needed. > > > > Doesn't realloc allocate new space, which means that the objects inside > > that space get moved? Then you have to track down all the places where > > addresses of these objects are kept. > > When it must allocate an entirely new block of RAM, reealloc() moves > all existing data from the old block to the new block, It always > returns a pointer to the block after allocating, unless it fails to > allocate the requested extra RAM. Then it returns a null pointer. > There is not much to track down. Everything in the new block is at > exactly the same offset relative to the new pointer that it was at > relative to the old pointer. > > Actually, I'm not sure that it really does this. It may play with > relocation registers to make it appear to the running program that > it has moved the data, or it may play with the relocation registers > so that it never has to actually return a pointer value that is > different from the calling pointer value. It all depends on what > is available in the hardware memory management of the CPU chip. Let's hope that it does do this, for efficiency's sake. So if we always use offsets to access objects in the bigspace we'll be OK. But if we use addresses there will be trouble becaues we have to locate all the addresses anywhere and change them. Unles the software we are porting is specifically written for this, we're in trouble. By the way, the ancient software I've had the pleasure of portinh where this issue came up was written for a nonmultiprogramming machine in which it was reasonable to allocate all of memory. No one else was available to use it anyway. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Trouble browsing secure web sites (scotiaonline.com)
On Mon, Nov 13, 2006 at 03:19:12PM -0800, Alan Ianson wrote: > On Sun November 12 2006 19:16, Stephen Yorke wrote: > > All I run is Etch at home right now...guess I should'a mentioned > > that...sorry. > > from what I have read it looks like the problem only exists with 2.6 kernel's > for some reason. Are you running a 2.4 kernel there by chance? Don't know what he's running, but it works for me in sarge with a 2.6.8-2-386 kernel. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ uname -a Linux lovesong 2.6.8-2-386 #1 Tue Aug 16 12:46:35 UTC 2005 i686 GNU/Linux [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: how many CDs for v3.1 r3?
On Mon, Nov 13, 2006 at 12:23:11PM -0800, anonymous wrote: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 13, 2006 at 07:23:11PM +0530, Amit Joshi wrote: > > > > > > I don't know, but this has been discussed quite a lotta times in various > > > fora. > > > Users often get stunned by the number of CDs and get confused what to > > > download and what not to. > > > > Perhaps http://www.debian.org/distrib/ should explicitly say > > > > If you have a decent internet connection, you only need the netinstall > > CD or the first regular CD. The rest will be downloaded as needed > > and you won't waste bandwidth downloading packages you won't use. > > > > and the netinstall option should be the *first* on the list. Definitely > > it should be presented before the option of downloading the complete set > > of CDs or DVDs. > > > > Many thanks for your elaborated reply. I prefer to download the iso > image at least for the > first time install of the distribution as it would give me a better > *feel* about the distribution > and the packages included with it. Later, I can manage my machine even > when the > network is not available. May be installing next release of Debian, I > would go for a network > install. > > > > > THen it should go on to explain: > > > > The other CD's are needed only if you are installing on a machine > > without a decent net connection, and you can install a very > > respectable Debian system using only the first few CDs, which contain > > the most popular packages. The later CDs in the set contain less > > popular packages. > > > > I still have not received a definitive reply to my question as yet. > Which, to repeat was: > > " I found out that I would need to download 18 CDs: 15 regular and 3 > for the update. > I would like to know whether all these CDs have binary files or are > these also include CDs > with sources and documentation. If so, which ones of them?" The first ones, anyway, have binary files and documentation. I used CDs back in the days when woody was current. There were seven of them, and they contained binary packages and documentation -- the stuff you need for using Debain, and not the stuff you need for recompiling it all from scratch. I don't think I ever needed past disk 5. As I mentioned, the contents are organised in order of popularity, so unless you like massively unpopular software, you shouln't need more than a few disks. I never use more than the first CD for an installation nowadays. I guess it might be different if I had a machine whose ethernet hardware was not recognised No. Now that I think of it, when that happened to me last January I stuck in a $15 PCI ethernet card and used it instead. Much easier than acquiring 15 CDs. I'm not sure which CDs would contain the sources. I suspect a different set. > > In fact, I have received conflicting statements to answer this query. > Just compare the two > statements below. > > fact > one key-feature of free-software.> Samuel B?chler > > AND > > provided.>Amit Joshi > > I am unable to decide which one of these is correct. > > Having used Redhat and Slackware before which just use 4 CDs each for > the boot and > packages and a couple more for the documentation and sources, it is > difficult for me to take > 15 CDs for the installation of packages alone. > > IF this *is* really the case, there should be some good reason for > this: Does debian offer a > lot of packages choices? Lot more than does either slackware or redhat > so as to need this > much number of CDs? I have heard that Debian has the most extensive collection of packages for any Linux in existence. Anyone know if that is true? > > OR the .deb packages are not as much efficient and do not use good > compression to > squeeze them all in a fewer CDs? > > > > That said, a list of which CDs contain which packages would still be > > useful. > > > > -- hendrik > > Again, still awaiting some insight into the above issues. > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ACM TechNews; Monday, November 13, 2006
On Mon, Nov 13, 2006 at 02:30:19PM -0500, technews wrote: > Read the TechNews Online at: http://technews.acm.org > > > "A Sneak Peak at a Fractured Web" > Wired News (11/13/06); Anderson, Mark > > The OpenNet Initiative is putting together an unprecedented report on > government censorship of the Internet, with the help of about 50 cyber law, > free speech, and network specialists from nations where censorship is known > to occur. Transparency of censorship practices vary: from Saudi Arabia > where blocked sites are listed and users are urged to recommend sites for > censorship; to countries such as Tunisia where the government uses "Page > not found" messages made to look "exactly like the Internet Explorer 404 > page" to hide their censorship practices, says Elijah Zarwan, an ONI > consultant from Cairo. Some government utilize denial of service (DoS) > attacks, carried out by a third party, that allow them "some plausible > deniability," says Nart Villeneuve of the University of Toronto's Citizen > Lab. While DoS attacks primarily target opposition party sites, commercial > motives also exist for censorship: the United Arab Emirates grants a > monopoly to its telecommunications provider, therefore the government > blocks VoIP citing legal reasons. Attempts to prevent, or get around, > censorship include Web applications and browsers that hide a user's IP > address and emails sent from ever-changing addresses. While China was the > first nation to censor Internet material, many dictatorships have followed > its lead in the past five years, says Reporters Without Borders' Julien > Pain, who praises the ONI project. However, the project has its risks: > even project manager Rob Faris recognizes the danger that the project will > provide valuable information that enhances governments ability to censor > content, such as revealing Web sites that governments would want to block > but had not known about. > http://www.wired.com/news/technology/1,72104-0.html > Anybody care to hazard a guess about how many of these censorship tools are open-source free software? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
emacs and ASCII file to ISO-8859-* to UTF-8
On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 09:31:25AM +0100, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote: > > > On 12.11.06 14:52, Andrea Ganduglia wrote: > > > > Hi. I have a lots ascii file with ecoding iso-8859-* and I must > > > > convert those in UTF-8. How? > > > On Mon, Nov 13, 2006 at 10:06:44AM +0100, Matus UHLAR - fantomas wrote: > > > iconv -f -t > outputfile. > > > > > > There is also 'recode' package, however I found it a bit redundant, since > > > iconv (part of libc6) has this functionality > > On 13.11.06 09:14, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > And after you've has converted such a file, how can you tell emacs that > > it is supposed to recognise the new encoding? > > pardon? This is an emacs-specific add-on question. If it has seen a file in one encoding system, and I run a program to change it to another (in my case, getting my accented letters converted from the old 8-bit encoding into UTF-8) emacs insists on continuing to read it as if it were in the old encoding, so my accented characters, which have been expanded into two bytes each, show up in the editor as two gibberish characters each. It seems that emacs keeps a database somewhere of file names and encodings. In theory that would be useful, I guess, because there isn't another mechanism in the filesysten to mark files with their encodings, but if such a convention isn't a system-wide convention, tools don't know about it and it doesn't work. I'm tryin to run a clean UTF-8 system, and I want my non-UTF-8 abberations to be converted and treated as UTF-8 henceforth, instead of converting them and having them treated as non-UTF-8. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
/dev/fd0 gone
I tried running lilo on my sarge system today, with the
lilo.conf line
boot=/dev/fd0
instead of the former
boot=/dev/hda
This used to work. But this time I was told:
LILO version 22.6.1, Copyright (C) 1992-1998 Werner Almesberger
Development beyond version 21 Copyright (C) 1999-2004 John Coffman
Released 17-Nov-2004, and compiled at 12:32:32 on May 25 2005
Debian GNU/Linux
Fatal: raid_setup: stat("/dev/fd0")
Now I don't even *have* a RAID on this machine. I do have a floppy
drive.
But when I tried
ls /dev/fd0
it told me
ls: /dev/fd0: No such file or directory
Indeed, ls /dev says
agpgart hda9 ram10tty11 tty34 tty57 ttyS21 ttyS44 vcs6
cdromhdb ram11tty12 tty35 tty58 ttyS22 ttyS45 vcs7
cdrom1 hdc ram12tty13 tty36 tty59 ttyS23 ttyS46 vcs8
cdrw hdc1 ram13tty14 tty37 tty6ttyS24 ttyS47 vcs9
console hdd ram14tty15 tty38 tty60 ttyS25 ttyS48 vcsa
core initctl ram15tty16 tty39 tty61 ttyS26 ttyS49 vcsa1
dri inputram2 tty17 tty4 tty62 ttyS27 ttyS5vcsa10
dvd kmem ram3 tty18 tty40 tty63 ttyS28 ttyS50 vcsa11
dvd1 kmsg ram4 tty19 tty41 tty7ttyS29 ttyS51 vcsa12
dvdram log ram5 tty2 tty42 tty8ttyS3 ttyS52 vcsa2
dvdrwloop ram6 tty20 tty43 tty9ttyS30 ttyS53 vcsa3
fd lp0 ram7 tty21 tty44 ttyS0 ttyS31 ttyS6vcsa4
full MAKEDEV ram8 tty22 tty45 ttyS1 ttyS32 ttyS7vcsa5
hda mapper ram9 tty23 tty46 ttyS10 ttyS33 ttyS8vcsa6
hda1 mem random tty24 tty47 ttyS11 ttyS34 ttyS9vcsa7
hda10net shm tty25 tty48 ttyS12 ttyS35 urandom vcsa8
hda11null snd tty26 tty49 ttyS13 ttyS36 vcs vcsa9
hda12port sndstat tty27 tty5 ttyS14 ttyS37 vcs1 xconsole
hda2 ppp stderr tty28 tty50 ttyS15 ttyS38 vcs10zero
hda3 psauxstdintty29 tty51 ttyS16 ttyS39 vcs11
hda4 ptmx stdout tty3 tty52 ttyS17 ttyS4 vcs12
hda5 pts tty tty30 tty53 ttyS18 ttyS40 vcs2
hda6 radeon tty0 tty31 tty54 ttyS19 ttyS41 vcs3
hda7 ram0 tty1 tty32 tty55 ttyS2 ttyS42 vcs4
hda8 ram1 tty10tty33 tty56 ttyS20 ttyS43 vcs5
Where is my floppy drive?
-- hendrik
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Re: emacs and ASCII file to ISO-8859-* to UTF-8
On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 11:26:22PM +0100, Jhair Tocancipa Triana wrote: > hendrik writes: > > > This is an emacs-specific add-on question. If it has seen a file in one > > encoding system, and I run a program to change it to another (in my > > case, getting my accented letters converted from the old 8-bit encoding > > into UTF-8) emacs insists on continuing to read it as if it were in the > > old encoding, so my accented characters, which have been expanded into > > two bytes each, show up in the editor as two gibberish characters each. > > C-x RET r utf-8 RET should force emacs to read the file using the ^ So this r is a kind of reinterpret operator instead of a convert operator? Do I type the space between 'r' and 'utf-8'? -- hendrik > utf-8 coding system. > > -- > -- Jhair > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GPL Java
On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 11:50:45AM -0800, Kelly Clowers wrote: > On 11/14/06, Joshua J. Kugler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >On Tuesday 14 November 2006 04:02, Gregory Seidman wrote: > >> Okay, so Java's GPL'd now: http://www.sun.com/2006-1113/feature/index.jsp > >> (Also http://java.net/ ) > >> > >> How soon will we see packages in main at long last? Granted, a buildable > >> JDK isn't expected until Spring of next year... > > > >I'm going to be a real stinker here and offer my guess: never. My first > >thought when I read the announcement was: "Great, it can now be included as > >the default JVM in Linux, Debian included." But then I quickly returned to > >reality and remembered the whole trademark and DFSG thing. While Sun > >released the *code* as GPL, I'm sure to be called Java, it will have to > >follow certain parameters. If that simply means passing a test suite, then > >including it in Debian might be possible, but if it means Sun approving all > >the patches, approving binaries, etc, then we'll probably end up with > >IcedLatte, or some such "almost Java" package. > > > >But...I could be wrong, and honestly do hope I am. > > > >j > > > > The equivilant of the Firefox problem would be if "Duke", the Java mascot > was under a non-free licence and Sun said the you could not use the > trademark "Java" without including Duke. But as far as I know, Sun has > not said that, and anyway, Duke has been released under the BSD licence: > https://duke.dev.java.net/ Last I heard, you could only use the mane "Java" if you followed Sun's spec. That was the core of their lawsuit with Microsoft. But they nevet, to my knowledge required anything but conformance to a spec, never line-by-line approval of code changes. This if it no longer conforms to spec, you have to change the name. Has that changed? Is that acceptable under DFSG? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Typing characters with byte value greater than 0x7f.
On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 01:01:53PM +1100, James Steward wrote: > Hi all, > > I have searched for some time now for a method by which I can enter > characters from (say) ISO 8859-1 in X applications. In essence I would > like to insert a "DEGREE SIGN" into an email for example. Anyone using > codepage 437 on windows or ISO 8859-1 in Linux should see a ? (I hope > you see it too ;-) I believe. > > Now I realise I can achieve this using KCharSelect, but is there a > keyboard only way? Similar to Alt-176 for example? > > I have tried wading through the multitude of google hits but cannot seem > to find an answer. I have a similar question -- how to enter arbitrary unicode characters. My system is configured (to the extent I've been able to do it) UTF-8 only, but I still have only the usual characters on my keyboard, and don't know, for example, how to enter hiragana. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: emacs without documentation nonsense
On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 01:00:37AM +, Tyler wrote: > I don't know that it's enough reason to go on living, but you will find > those docs (in)conveniently stored in the package > emacs21-common-non-dfsg, in the non-free repos. > > At some point I wonder if the devs will realize that they undermine > their efforts to encourage users to use a dfsg-free system by all but > forcing us into the non-free repos for basic documentation? Which devs are the ones responsible here: the Debian devs who put it there, or the upstream ones that presumably put non-free constraints on the documentatin license? Or is it all a big misunderstanding? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: GPL Java
On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 11:17:39PM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > Kelly Clowers writes: > > If I understand that correctly, the question is if the logo is DFSG free. > > If it is not, Debian would have to remove it, but that seems to not be > > allowed by the trademark use guidelines. > > Those rules are for Sun dealers. Debian is not and will never be a Sun > dealer. Redistributing Java will not make Debian subject to those rules. But if a Sun dealer were to install Debian's Java package, would he still be subject to these restrictions? And would that make it non-DFSG? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: EFF call for help against restrictive patents
On Wed, Nov 15, 2006 at 06:48:12PM +, Richard Lyons wrote: > EFF is trying to bust some more patents. In brief one is a patent on > virtual domains, I think more or less as implemented by Apache for I don't > know how long. Details are here: > <http://www.eff.org/patent/wanted/prior.php?p=ideaflood> > and more on the Patent Busting Project is here: > <http://www.eff.org/patent/> > > I am not expert enough to help them, but I am sure someone here is... > > Apologies for OT again OT? If this isn't of interest to Debian users, I don't know what *is*! -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist
On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 10:14:00AM +, J.A. de Vries wrote:
> On 2006-11-15 @ 22:27:03 (week 46) Mike McCarty wrote:
>
> > OTOH, something is there. Try using
> >
> > # lsof
>
> Ah, hadn't thought of lsof or fuser yet. Good reminder, thanks!
>
> I tried both but lsof didn't list the file as being used and fuser
> couldn't find the file at all ("No such file or directory").
>
> > He probably has a file which has been deleted, but which
> > some process still has open. This causes the directory
> > entry to be marked "for deletion", but for the allocation
> > not to be released to free space until the last process
> > has closed the file.
I thought that a deleted file that was still being read *was* unlinked
from the directory, just not removed from the disk until it was closed.
-- hendrik
>
> That's exactly what I thought when you mentioned lsof, but that doesn't
> seem to be the case here.
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Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist
On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 10:14:00AM +, J.A. de Vries wrote: > > I am gonna do one more thing (looking in /proc for any references to > that file). But at the moment I think that maybe this is some corruption > in the filesystem (ReiserFS). In that case running reiserfsck might > help. I am hoping... Rumours I have heard about reiserfsck suggest to me that taking a backup is *highly* recommended before doing reiserfsck. Some copying/backup programs have options to ignore specific files or directories. That might be applicable here. By the way, can you mv the file to a less in-the-way place? I once managed that for a nonexistent file on an ext2 filesystem. With various command-line options on tar I could back up around it. I didn't manage to actually get rid of it, though, except by reformatting the partition. Woould this be an application for and inode editor? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist
On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 10:00:31AM +, J.A. de Vries wrote:
> On 2006-11-15 @ 19:16:00 (week 46) Wayne Topa wrote:
>
> > Been there, done that. Now when I come across a file the is there but
> > isn't, I run mc. If it's really there, mc will remove it.
>
> Hi Wayne,
>
> Well then, that convinced me the problem is to be found at a lower
> level. mc listed the file with a questionmark in front of it, but
> couldn't delete it either ("No such file or directory (2)").
>
> Right now I am reading man reiserfsck. Let's hope doing a fsck will
> solve my problem.
I've heard bad things about reiserfsck. According to the rumours,
reiser doesn't appear to have quite as much redindancy as ext2,
resulting in occasinal hashed file systems. It is, apparently,
especially hard on file systems containing files containing inages of
reiser file systems. I don't know if it has other problems, but the
rumours are not encouraging.
So:
Backup first. If you have trouble backing up that file (isn't that
where some of this discussion started?) you might use the parameters tar
has to skip particular files or directories by name.
-- hendrik
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Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist
On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 08:19:55AM -0600, Mike McCarty wrote:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> >On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 10:14:00AM +, J.A. de Vries wrote:
> >
> >>On 2006-11-15 @ 22:27:03 (week 46) Mike McCarty wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>OTOH, something is there. Try using
> >>>
> >>># lsof
> >>
> >>Ah, hadn't thought of lsof or fuser yet. Good reminder, thanks!
> >>
> >>I tried both but lsof didn't list the file as being used and fuser
> >>couldn't find the file at all ("No such file or directory").
> >>
> >>
> >>>He probably has a file which has been deleted, but which
> >>>some process still has open. This causes the directory
> >>>entry to be marked "for deletion", but for the allocation
> >>>not to be released to free space until the last process
> >>>has closed the file.
> >
> >
> >I thought that a deleted file that was still being read *was* unlinked
> >from the directory, just not removed from the disk until it was closed.
>
> Sorry, I wasn't speaking of the internal details. But there is certainly
> a directory entry, or lsof couldn't display the name. For example..
>
> $ /usr/sbin/lsof | grep deleted
> gconfd-2 3630 jmccarty 13wW REG3,5 625258777
> /tmp/gconfd-jmccarty/lock/0t1161529398ut556742u500p3630r1806880270k3220436076
> (deleted)
> nautilus 3678 jmccarty 27r REG 8,65 1250 2097341
> /mnt/usb/home/jmccarty/projects/restoration/Tubes/0DataSheets/Sylvania_1951.txt
>
> (deleted)
I get the same kind of thing:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ /usr/sbin/lsof | grep deleted
lsof: WARNING: can't stat() reiserfs file system /dev/.static/dev
Output information may be incomplete.
gconfd-2 5234 hendrik 12wW REG3,3 625111981
/tmp/gconfd-hendrik/lock/0t1163535914ut683443u1001p5234r2034689075k3221223836
(deleted)[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ ls -al
/tmp/gconfd-hendrik/lock/0t1163535914ut683443u1001p5234r2034689075k3221223836
ls:
/tmp/gconfd-hendrik/lock/0t1163535914ut683443u1001p5234r2034689075k3221223836:
No such file or directory
[EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$
Interesting. Live and learn. This doesn't fit my mental model of a
file system at all... I guess I have to find a new one.
Could those deleted files be symbolic links? Or former named pipes? Or
something else strange?
-- hendrik
>
> Mike
> --
> p="p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}";main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
> This message made from 100% recycled bits.
> You have found the bank of Larn.
> I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
> I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!
>
>
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Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist
On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 11:21:40AM -0600, John Hasler wrote: > hendrik writes: > > I thought that a deleted file that was still being read *was* unlinked > > from the directory, just not removed from the disk until it was closed. > > The directory entry is deleted and the link count is decremented when the > file is deleted from the directory. When the file was opened the link > count was incremented, so this does not bring it to zero. When the file is > closed the link count is decremented. If this brings the link count to > zero the file is deleted. > -- > John Hasler > Thanks. That was what I thought happened. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: /dev/fd0 gone
On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 05:12:27PM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > On Tue, Nov 14, 2006 at 01:58:58PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > But when I tried > > ls /dev/fd0 > > it told me > > > > ls: /dev/fd0: No such file or directory > > > > Indeed, ls /dev says > > > [ its not there ] > > Where is my floppy drive? > > > > Are you running a plain /dev/ or do you use udev or devfs or something? > > If plain /dev, then something has deleted the node. Make it again, > block, major 2, minor 0 > > If udev, then the module for your floppy drive is not inserted so it > doesn't know about the floppy drive so it doesn't make a node. In this > case, use modconf and find the module. Thanks. It turned out that the 'floppy' kernel module was missing. -- hendrik > > For testing, put a scratch disk in the drive then after each change, try > to format the disk. > > Doug. > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist [SOLVED]
On Thu, Nov 16, 2006 at 05:03:22PM +, J.A. de Vries wrote: > On 2006-11-16 @ 08:56:14 (week 46) [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Rumours I have heard about reiserfsck suggest to me that taking a backup > > is *highly* recommended before doing reiserfsck. > > Right you are! I did, excluding the directory containing the troublesome > file. Glad it worked for you. Also glad reiserfsck worked. That backup warning is for real. I've heard of reiserfsck getting confused and causing severe file-system damage. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist
On Tue, Nov 21, 2006 at 10:38:45AM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 09:52:26PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 20, 2006 at 06:43:06PM -0500, Johan Kullstam wrote: > > > > >From what I hear, reiserfs and ext3 are both reasonably protected > > against panic reboots -- the hard drives will have written or not > > written the journal, and remounting the file system will figure out what > > happened. What they have a hard time with is panic powerdowns -- > > because of the behaviour of some IDE drives -- apparently they report > > data transfer complete when they have merely buffered it internally, > > expecting it to be written real soon now. If the power fails before > > this happens, the file system will assume data have been written which > > in fact have not been written, and this could caouse journal failure. > > > > > ext2, I'm told, has just enough extra redundancy that is is possible to > > make a reasonable guess as th owhat's wrong by an fsck. rumour has it > > that reiser, which stored data in a tree structure that's somewhat > > independent of the file-system structure, is more vulnerable to problens > > like confusing data with file-system structure. > > > > I don't know what the situatin is with JFS. Anybody know? > > > > All I know is what I've experienced and what I have taken on faith: > > Reiserfs looses files on panic powerdowns (power failure) even if the > filesystem structure survives. Reiserfsck doesn't fix this. This, for > me, has been small files (unfortunaly, typically those in /etc) even > though they weren't being written at the time of the power failure. That sounds right. > > IBM says they designed JFS to allow a server to get back to work quickly > after a power failure, which includes fixing problems so that it __can__ > work. I have enough experience with IBM to trust that when they design > something to put their name on it (and use it in AIX) that it will do > what they say it will do. The hard part of this is, of course, to deal with disk drives that lie about whether they have written. I have respect for IBM too. When a third-party developer decided to rely on IBM's specs for OS/2's high-performance file system to write a disk optimiser/defragmenter or some such, they build partitions with the file system root in a valid-according-to-spec place that was different from the place IBM had been putting it. OS/2 had troubel reading these partitions. IBM fixed their HPFS implementation so that it would work to spec. A similar story with Microsoft: When an independently written-to-spec utility failed to handle NTFS properly, Bill Gates is reported to have said, "Looks kike they haven't figured out all the intricacies of our file system yet." > > I tried to stress-test JFS by __moving__ directories from one drive to > another and one partition to another and cutting the power in the > middle. The move would only be partially complete but no files were > lost; they either existed on one drive or the other, nothing got lost in > limbo. That sounds competent. > > Until I got my new Athlon system, I have always used old/slow hardware. > Looking at the benchmark comparisions, reiserfs may be faster with small > files because it embeds them in the directory structure but to do that > it needs a lot more CPU overhead. So on my hardware, JFS has been > faster than reiserfs. > > So I use JFS for everything. > > Doug. I'm at the point of replacing one of my reiserfs's on an NFS server with something else for reliability. (reliability is the *primary* criterion for this server, by the way. I'd happily give up some speed for reliability) I was going to go to ext3 because of its venerable age. Now you hae me wondering about JFS. DO you have any more relevant facts? or links to facts? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Debian sub-menu gone from Gnome---Never mind!
On Tue, Nov 21, 2006 at 04:25:06PM -0500, Max Hyre wrote: > Max Hyre wrote: > > >Sometime in the last day or two my menu entry for > > Applications > Debian has disappeared. > >Having rebooted, it's back. Dunno what that was about, sorry to > bother you. Sounds like a bug, anyway. You shouldn't *have* to reboot unless you change the kernel. -- hendrik > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist
On Tue, Nov 21, 2006 at 10:37:27PM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > > I went from ext3 to reiserfs because ext3 didn't stand up long term to > power failures (then from reiserfs to jfs when it became available). Well, if that's the situation, going form reiserfs to ext3 fs doesn't seem like that much of an improvement. Did you actually experience ext3's corruption during power outages, or just hear about it? And if it was experience, was it on a live system or a test rig (like JFS and the directiry copying. I know from experience that ext2 isn't good against power failures. I believe that power failures have been the ultimate reason why one of my etch systems dies. But that's ext2, not ext3. Mind you, reinstall isn't all that successful either; I'm hitting bugs in the new installer ... -- hendrik > > Doug. > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist
On Tue, Nov 21, 2006 at 10:37:27PM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote:
> On Tue, Nov 21, 2006 at 09:53:41PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > On Tue, Nov 21, 2006 at 10:38:45AM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote:
> >
> > > So I use JFS for everything.
> > >
> >
> > I'm at the point of replacing one of my reiserfs's on an NFS server with
> > something else for reliability. (reliability is the *primary* criterion
> > for this server, by the way. I'd happily give up some speed for
> > reliability) I was going to go to ext3 because of its venerable age.
> > Now you hae me wondering about JFS.
> >
> > DO you have any more relevant facts? or links to facts?
> >
>
>
> There's a filesystem benchmark comparison on ibm's website somewhere (I
> don't have the link) and I think an article on the same topic in the
> linux gazette (from the installed packages) but I don't have them
> installed right now ('production box is small-disk 486, big box is Etch
> amd64, small footprint until Etch is stable).
Would those benchmarks test performance or reliability?
On http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_file_systems it appears
that jfs joesn't kournal file contents, although apparently both reiser3
and ext3 can be made to.
>
> I suppose for ultimate security there's three-disk raid1 in sync? (Why
> doesn't mount have a 'verify' option like dos used to)?
Already using a two-disk RAID. And occasional off-line backups.
-- hendrik
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Re: Weird Upgrade procedure - Debian Testing.
On Wed, Nov 22, 2006 at 12:46:07PM +0530, Amit Joshi wrote: > > While trying to upgrade my Debian Testing system, it shows me a horde of > packages that could be upgraded. But take a look at the bottom of this output > where it mentions the size et al. The size of the _to_be_fetched_ packages is > 227MB, while it is gonna use around 1.5MB of disk-space?? > > Kinda weird..I don't understand. I would simply download the single 1.5MB > Package, right? Any chance that the to-be=fetched package is compressed, and it has to be uncompressed during installation to be useful? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
The danger of dishonest disk drives (WAS:Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist)
On Tue, Nov 21, 2006 at 10:38:45AM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote:
>
> All I know is what I've experienced and what I have taken on faith:
>
> Reiserfs looses files on panic powerdowns (power failure) even if the
> filesystem structure survives. Reiserfsck doesn't fix this. This, for
> me, has been small files (unfortunaly, typically those in /etc) even
> though they weren't being written at the time of the power failure.
>
> IBM says they designed JFS to allow a server to get back to work quickly
> after a power failure, which includes fixing problems so that it __can__
> work. I have enough experience with IBM to trust that when they design
> something to put their name on it (and use it in AIX) that it will do
> what they say it will do.
>
> I tried to stress-test JFS by __moving__ directories from one drive to
> another and one partition to another and cutting the power in the
> middle. The move would only be partially complete but no files were
> lost; they either existed on one drive or the other, nothing got lost in
> limbo.
>
> Until I got my new Athlon system, I have always used old/slow hardware.
> Looking at the benchmark comparisions, reiserfs may be faster with small
> files because it embeds them in the directory structure but to do that
> it needs a lot more CPU overhead. So on my hardware, JFS has been
> faster than reiserfs.
>
> So I use JFS for everything.
>
> Doug.
I looked a dmesg output, and in the midle it says:
[ 31.547456] Probing IDE interface ide0...
[ 31.837706] hda: WDC WD2500JB-00GVC0, ATA DISK drive
[ 32.511260] ide0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6 on irq 14
[ 32.511467] Probing IDE interface ide1...
[ 32.800442] hdc: WDC WD2500JB-00GVC0, ATA DISK drive
[ 33.247857] hdd: HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-4167B, ATAPI CD/DVD-ROM drive
[ 33.307431] ide1 at 0x170-0x177,0x376 on irq 15
[ 33.319500] hda: max request size: 1024KiB
[ 33.330796] hda: 488397168 sectors (250059 MB) w/8192KiB Cache,
CHS=30401/255/63, UDMA(100)
[ 33.332722] hda: cache flushes supported
[ 33.332762] hda: hda1 hda2 hda3
[ 33.351996] hdc: max request size: 1024KiB
[ 33.368251] hdc: 488397168 sectors (250059 MB) w/8192KiB Cache,
CHS=30401/255/63, UDMA(33)
[ 33.370187] hdc: cache flushes supported
[ 33.370204] hdc: hdc1 hdc3
[ 33.381946] hdd: ATAPI 48X DVD-ROM DVD-R-RAM CD-R/RW drive, 2048kB Cache,
UDMA(33)
Do you have similar lines in your dmesg output?
The key words here are "cache flushes supported", suggesting to me that
it is indeed possible for a file system to flush the cache, creating
safe points in the journalling. Does anyone know if my interpretation
is correct?
The remaining questin is whether these cache flushes are indeed carried
out at the right moments.
I've found the following references to suggest that some attempt is
being made to so this, but the exact status is unclear to me:
http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/faq.html
http://lwn.net/Articles/157209/
The latter of the two is a commit message that commits changes to a
file called
blk-fixes/Documentation/block/barrier.txt
Now if I could find the rest of that file, things might be clearer.
-- hendrik
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Re: Weird Upgrade procedure - Debian Testing.
On Wed, Nov 22, 2006 at 10:07:27AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > On Wed, Nov 22, 2006 at 12:46:07PM +0530, Amit Joshi wrote: > > > > While trying to upgrade my Debian Testing system, it shows me a horde of > > packages that could be upgraded. But take a look at the bottom of this > > output > > where it mentions the size et al. The size of the _to_be_fetched_ packages > > is > > 227MB, while it is gonna use around 1.5MB of disk-space?? > > > > Kinda weird..I don't understand. I would simply download the single 1.5MB > > Package, right? > > Any chance that the to-be=fetched package is compressed, and it has to > be uncompressed during installation to be useful? OOPS! Stupid reply! I misread your post as 227KB instead of 227MB! -- hendrik > > -- hendrik > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Weird Upgrade procedure - Debian Testing.
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 08:16:59AM +, Brad Rogers wrote: > On Thu, 23 Nov 2006 12:25:19 +0530 > Amit Joshi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hello Amit, > > > Also, do all of you do a daily upgrade of your "Debian Testing" to > > stay uptodate and avoid bulk upgrades? not usually daily. More like once a week. And then only when the other Debian installation on the same machine is working perfectly. Which is almost always, it being stable. Stable, on the other hand, I upgrade rarely, and only when the testing installation on the other partition is working adequately. Unless that one is long-term dead (as now), when I still need the security fixes. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The danger of dishonest disk drives (WAS:Re: Need to remove a ghost file, but can't because it doesn't exist)
On Thu, Nov 23, 2006 at 02:25:57PM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > On Wed, Nov 22, 2006 at 10:52:07AM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 21, 2006 at 10:38:45AM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > > > > > > > > So I use JFS for everything. > > > > > I looked a dmesg output, and in the midle it says: > > > > [ 31.547456] Probing IDE interface ide0... > > [ 31.837706] hda: WDC WD2500JB-00GVC0, ATA DISK drive > > [ 32.511260] ide0 at 0x1f0-0x1f7,0x3f6 on irq 14 > > [ 32.511467] Probing IDE interface ide1... > > [ 32.800442] hdc: WDC WD2500JB-00GVC0, ATA DISK drive > > [ 33.247857] hdd: HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-4167B, ATAPI CD/DVD-ROM drive > > [ 33.307431] ide1 at 0x170-0x177,0x376 on irq 15 > > [ 33.319500] hda: max request size: 1024KiB > > [ 33.330796] hda: 488397168 sectors (250059 MB) w/8192KiB Cache, > > CHS=30401/255/63, UDMA(100) > > [ 33.332722] hda: cache flushes supported > > [ 33.332762] hda: hda1 hda2 hda3 > > [ 33.351996] hdc: max request size: 1024KiB > > [ 33.368251] hdc: 488397168 sectors (250059 MB) w/8192KiB Cache, > > CHS=30401/255/63, UDMA(33) > > [ 33.370187] hdc: cache flushes supported > > [ 33.370204] hdc: hdc1 hdc3 > > [ 33.381946] hdd: ATAPI 48X DVD-ROM DVD-R-RAM CD-R/RW drive, 2048kB > > Cache, UDMA(33) > > > > Do you have similar lines in your dmesg output? > > > > The key words here are "cache flushes supported", suggesting to me that > > it is indeed possible for a file system to flush the cache, creating > > safe points in the journalling. Does anyone know if my interpretation > > is correct? > > > > The remaining questin is whether these cache flushes are indeed carried > > out at the right moments. > > > > I've found the following references to suggest that some attempt is > > being made to so this, but the exact status is unclear to me: > > > > http://oss.sgi.com/projects/xfs/faq.html > > http://lwn.net/Articles/157209/ > > > > The latter of the two is a commit message that commits changes to a > > file called > > blk-fixes/Documentation/block/barrier.txt > > Now if I could find the rest of that file, things might be clearer. > > Hi Hendrik, > > The faq link you gave is for xfs which is defferent from jfs. I'm aware of this. I dug up this information because I wanted to find out whether the hardware would be up to the task if the filesystem is. Because if the hardware says data are permanently recorded when they haven't been, what can the file system do. Cache flushes potentially create sync points where everything is properly committed. The blk-fixes stuff seems to discuss what the kernel people are trying to do about retining proper state on involuntary shutdown. If I could only find the rest of this documentation. Of what system is this the blk-fixes/Documentation/block/barrier.txt file? Where is the whole thing, as opposed to the patches, documented? > > I have no lines on either of my boxes mentioning cache flushes. Then > again, I found WD drives unreliable for some reason and perhaps this is > why. Now, I only use Seagate. My suspicion is that supporting cache flushes means that it does have a mechanism to create proper symc points by flushing the cache. Not supporting them means either that it can't provide sync points and fhe file system is helpless or that it doesn't need to because it doesn't cache or lie about writing, and the file system can do its business properly. > > The best source of jfs information is from ibm. The easiest way to > locate this is with google: > > jfs site:ibm.com > > Although since IBM likes to move stuff around, google often can't find > things. So use the search function on IBM's website at www.ibm.com > Also, today, I'm not getting a response from ibm.com/developerworks, > which is where most of the linux jfs documentation is. Will look. Thanks. > > Note that IBM does say that jfs focus more on being able to restore > filesystem integrity than on data integrity. For higher integrity they > suggest the sync mount option. reiser4 is *supposed* to care about data integrity as well. But it's still not in a stable release according to its developer (last time I looked) and he seems to be in jail at the moment. ext3 is supposed to care about data integrity *if* you specify the right mount options. > > What I haven't seen covered is how the fs/lvm/raid1 interact re the fs > committing the journal to disk. There's probably a 2.6 kernel internals > document that discusses this but I haven't seen it yet. > > I wonder if there is a filesystem designed from the outset for data > integrity after power-failure. That's what journals are supposed to do -- if the disk drives don't lie to them. Whether the journals are properly implemented is another matter. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Reportbug - Does it work?
On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 09:22:51AM -0500, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: > On Sat, Nov 25, 2006 at 07:13:34AM -0600, Hugo Vanwoerkom wrote: > > > > That would get one response from where I am: we don't support that OS. > > > > Yes. I too have had to deal with that. Whenever that issue comes up, I > usually just tell them I am running Windows 98, which is the last > version of Windows with which I am resonably familiar. The first level > tech support usually doesn't care since they have a script. The key is > to get a phone number for the level 3 or higher tech support. With my > two previous ISPs this took about two or three hours of dealing with > level 1 and level 2 support. Usually, what they will do is put you on > hold and go and talk to the next tier themselves. If you persist, they > will pass you on and when they pass you on, you can generally ask the > person for their direct number. That's the main thing I looked for when I sought an ISP -- I call their tech support and find out if they choke when I mention I run Linux and ask them what drivers or kernel modules I need to use their cable modem. If they don't choke and talk to me in like language I know they're OK. I settled on dsl.ca as my ISP. Every time they are taken over ny a bigger organisation I get to worry for a while. Currently, I believe they're called magma.ca, and seem to be aprt of primus. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Etch status..?
On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 08:37:52PM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > On Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 08:21:25PM -0500, cga2000 wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 27, 2006 at 08:50:24PM EST, Douglas Tutty wrote: > > > On Mon, Nov 27, 2006 at 05:13:56PM -0500, cga2000 wrote: > > > > On Sun, Nov 26, 2006 at 05:36:39PM EST, Douglas Tutty wrote: > > > > [..] > > > > > I did the etch upgrade following the sarge install using apt-get and > > then installed half a dozen apps, Xorg, and the 2.6.8 and 2.6.17 > > kernels using aptitude. > > > > Sounds like I'll have to start over and stick to one or the other. > > No, just start using aptitude, stop using apt-get, and go manually > through the list of packages from within aptitude, determine if they're > ones you want, they depend on packages installed, or they're cruft. The big difference with aptitude is that it remembers which packages you explicitly requested. And it cleans up packages that are no longer needed bases on this knowledge. So if you installed something without aptitude it may decide that it's not needed any more and decide to delete it. Therefore, use apritude interactively and *always* look through the packages it proposes to delete. If you want one of them, it's very easy to stop the deletion -- just explicitly requset it! Otherwise, aptitude uses the same underlying package management tools as apt-get. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what's the killer app for GNU/Linux systems?
On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 02:54:12PM +, George Borisov wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > > > > Win32 belies that. It's been stable for 8 (possibly 11, not being a > > Windows developer) years. Windows XP will run 8 year old Windows 98 > > apps with no problem. > > Sadly this does not include any of the nice old games that I used > to enjoy all those years ago. They worked just fine on Win 98, > but not 2k or XP. :-( And those games are the only reason anyone here want to use Windows! > > > -- > George Borisov > > DXSolutions Ltd > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED] > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what's the killer app for GNU/Linux systems?
On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 11:25:14AM -0700, Nate Duehr wrote: > Matthew Krauss wrote: > >Nate Duehr wrote: > >>Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: > >>>Hi, > >>>A killer app is an application that compels one to use a certain > >>>system. On Debian lists, someone mentioned that meld, a GUI diff > >>>utility, was killer. I can't think of any I have because I moved to > >>>GNU/Linux for its said overall magnificence, instead of a particular > >>>application, and today there's isn't one utility I admire so much I'd > >>>consider such... maybe gnome-terminal, lsof, grep, top, > >>>epiphany-browser, or less. I'd mention admirance for Blender, GCC, > >>>Python but they are cross-platform. I'd mention GNOME, but it's a 100 > >>>apps. So I give up and ask you, what's your killer app(s)? > >>> > >>> > >> > >>The kernel. > >> > >>Without it, I wouldn't be here. > >> > >>:-) > >> > >>Nate > >Okay, I can top that: The GPL. > > > >:-) twice. > > > >-Matthew > > Nah, if there had been no GPL, Linus would have probably licensed under > the BSD license. (Just a guess there, since that's a fake world that > never existed, but...) > > My assertion: The kernel is more important than the license. Code > trumps license. No code, no need to even use or have a license... > whatever it is. > > Nate Code without licence tends not to propagate. Linux wasn't the first Unix-compatible one to have been written. It seems to me there was a Unix-compatible kerlen written in the language TURING sometime in the late 70's or early 80's. But it didn't have a free license, and -- well, have any of you ever heard of it? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what's the killer app for GNU/Linux systems?
On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 09:52:16PM -0700, Nate Duehr wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >>My assertion: The kernel is more important than the license. Code > >>trumps license. No code, no need to even use or have a license... > >>whatever it is. > > > >Code without licence tends not to propagate. Linux wasn't the first > >Unix-compatible one to have been written. It seems to me there was a > >Unix-compatible kerlen written in the language TURING sometime in the > >late 70's or early 80's. But it didn't have a free license, and -- > >well, have any of you ever heard of it? > > Code before licenses were popular propagated just fine. Ask RMS! It's > the basis for the entire GNU movement! Code *was* propagating just fine > until greedy companies added licenses. Then the so-called battle was > enjoined. True. I remember those days from back in the sixties. What you need the license for is to grant the users the right to propagate the code. Placing it in the public domain (which to my mind is a kind of license, whatever the legal technicalities may say) has the effect that companies can take the code private, privately enhance it to the degree that they effectively own what the original code has become, which may atrophy. This may or may not be what is intended, but the larger the developer community, and the greater the utility of the code, the less likely is will be to happen. GPL did prevent that kind of taking-private, but its contagion provisions are, in my mind, more restrictive than necessary to accomplish this aim. > > I could send you some code in e-mail right now if you'd like. You could > modify it and send it on privately to someone or use it in your business > and I'd never know about it. Code propagates just fine without licenses. And if you ever found out about it seven years form now when you've acquired a different mindset? Would you sue? Are you sure? If you did sue, would you win? And even if you are sure you wouldn't sue or couldn't win, can I be sure unless you do explicitly place it in the public domain? Under current international law, code is automatically copyright by the author. Unless a license is explicitly or implicitly granted, no one else has the right to make copies. > > Ironically, the places it doesn't propagate now without an onerous > license (of either the "good" or "evil" sort) is in PUBLIC. Because > people are somehow afraid of the results of their sharing. > > Both the GPL *and* commercial licenses are ultimately based on FUD. If > you're scared of the consequences of simply taking some code and using > it as you please and/or the consequences of doing so: You want a > license to tell you how you may or may not use it. > > Neither is Freedom. Both are restricted. Otherwise they wouldn't be > licenses. > > If you simply do what you wish with whatever code you have, and accept > the consequences, whatever they might be, you don't need a license. The potential consequences are what generates the fear. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: dual layered DVD's vs single layer etc....
On Mon, Dec 04, 2006 at 08:04:11AM +1100, M-L wrote: > On Monday 04 December 2006 07:51, Michael Fothergill sent this for all our > perusal: > >---> > >---> Once it gets to that size would dual layered DVD iso images be > > considered to ---> be parked in the repositories? > >---> > >---> > >---> > >---> Regards > >---> > >---> Michael Fothergill > > That might be all right, as long as the other option, single layer DVD's and > CD's is still available. Otherwise everyone would have to upgrade to dual > layer DVD's. That's probably a dumb answer. Because Debian would cut out the > other media. Last I heard (which was a year or so ago) DVDs were not a reliable way to store data long-term -- or, at least, many brands/makes of DVDs were not and some might be, but it's not clear which was which. Has this situation changed? If not, it essential to keep the older storage formats. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what's the killer app for GNU/Linux systems?
On Fri, Dec 01, 2006 at 05:19:54PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > Code without licence tends not to propagate. Linux wasn't the first > Unix-compatible one to have been written. It seems to me there was a > Unix-compatible kerlen written in the language TURING sometime in the > late 70's or early 80's. But it didn't have a free license, and -- > well, have any of you ever heard of it? I remember its name -- that Unix-compatible kernel was called TUNIS. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: backup archive format saved to disk
redundancy that allows one to recover from a small amount of damage. If you add ECC before compression, and, say, a single bit gets changed to the compressed archive, decompressing it will likely not yield a block with a small amount of damage; it will more likely yield total gibberish -- and ECC on that is not likely to help. If you add ECC after compression, and a single bit gets changed, then ECC will make it possible to correct the compressed block, after which decompression will work. If you want to be able to recover data despite damage, it is in general not wise to compress it, since different parts will be damaged independently, and the undamaged parts will still be readable. Squeezing out redundancy makes different parts of the data dependent on one another for interpretation. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: backup archive format saved to disk
On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 09:31:18AM -0800, Tyler MacDonald wrote: > > I use backup2l to make incremental backups to a partition in /dump. > These backups are then GPG-encrypted, with the key of the owner of each > server. Thereby ensuring that the entire backup depends on the survivability of the private GPG keys of the owners of the servers. If they lose their keys, the entire backup system is worthless. How are the keys backed up? -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: backup archive format saved to disk
On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 06:58:35PM -0600, Mike McCarty wrote: > Andrew Sackville-West wrote: > >On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 07:08:54PM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > > > >>Yes. But I don't want to loose any data at all. > > > > > >there is no way to guarantee this. you could improve your odds by > >having multiple storage locations with multiple copies and a rigorous > >method for routinely testing the backup media for corruption and > >making new replacement copies of the backups to prevent future loss. > > > >For example, make multiple identical backups. sprinkle them in various > >locations. on a periodic, routine basis, test those backups for > >possible corruption. If their clean, make a new copy anyway to put in > >rotation, throwing away the old ones after so many periods. If you > > Respectfully, I disagree with this last recommendation. You are > suggesting that he continually keep his backup media on the > infant mortality portion of the Weibull distribution. The usual > way for devices which are not subjected to periodic high stress > to fail is to have an infant mortality rate which is high, but falls > down to a low level, then begins to rise again with wearout. In this > case, wearout would be eventual degradation of the metallization > layer in the disc. > > >find a corrupt one, get one of your clean ones to reproduce it and > >start over. > > Be sure to use an odd number of copies. Don't want no tied votes > on whether a given bit is a 0 or a 1 :-) > > >there is now way, using only one physical storage medium, to guarantee > >no loss of data. > > There is no way, using any number of physical storage media, to > gurantee no loss of data. > > On any storage medium, if the probability of error in a data bit is less > than 50%, then given any e > 0 there exists an FEC method which reduces > the probability of data loss to be less than e. > > If the probability of error on any given bit is greater than 50%, > then there is no way, by adding additional information, to make > the eventual error rate be less than a single copy. The additional > bits are more likely to be in error than the original. Speaking pedantically, if the probability of error is greater than 50%, you can complement every bit and gte a probability less than 50%. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: backup archive format saved to disk
On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 07:55:40PM -0600, Mike McCarty wrote: > > >I'm focusing on the one-drive issue because this is one drive sitting in > >a bank vault. This is __archive__ (just like tape). I have backup > >procedures as a separate issue. One of the places that backup data goes > >to is the bank vault archive. > > If the issue is a drive, then you need more than one drive. If the > drive itself fails, then you are SOL. And maybe a second bank with a separate vault. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: backup archive format saved to disk
On Tue, Dec 05, 2006 at 11:01:49PM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > Thanks Mike, > > If I can attempt to summarize a portion of what you said: > > If the issue is resistance to data block errors, it doesn't > matter if I use a file system or not so I may as well use a file > system then if have difficulty, rip multiple copies of the file > system bit by bit and do majority rules. > > There's a package (forget the name) that will do this > with files: take multiple damaged copies and make one > good copy if possible. > > > Does the kernel software-raid in raid1 do this? Would there be any > advantage/disadvantage to putting three partitions on the drive and > setting them up as raid1? (and record the partition table [sfdisk -d] > separately)? If the drive electronics fails, for example, or a piece of abrasive dirt is on the head during a seekm you lose all three partitions. Better to have one partition on each of three separate drives. My strategy? * RAID1 with two drives * reiserfs on the RAID (although I have been told that reiser has bad resistance to power failures, I haven't changed yet; it's wonderfully resilient to the software crashes I've been experiencing) * backup by copying everything onto a dismountable hard disk and keeping it on a shelf * critical data kept in textual form and checked into monotone, which is to be sync'ed to monotone repositories elsewhere (still setting this up). -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: backup archive format saved to disk
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 09:16:11AM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > On Wed, Dec 06, 2006 at 09:02:37PM -0600, Reid Priedhorsky wrote: > > > No, you _should_ compress it and then use some of the space you saved to > > add some carefully chosen redundancy which will allow you to reconstruct > > everything, not just some things, in case of failure. (E.g., using par2.) > > > Scenario C: Compression plus redundancy > > > > Suppose you have 100 megabytes of files, uncompressed. You create a tar > > archive and compress it down to 75M. You then create 10M of redundancy > > using (e.g.) par2, for a total of 85M. A failure occurs, and 2M of data > > is lost. You use par2 to reconstruct the archive, and nothing is lost. > > (You can do this regardless of whether data, redundancy, or both are > > destroyed.) You are happy. > > > > Hi Reid, > > I've been looking at par2. The question remains how to apply it to data > stored on media where the potential failure is one of media not > transmittion. If I only protect the tar.bz2 file and a media failure > occurs, how could I have set up the par2 redundancy files to allow me to > recover the data. > > Apparently, hard disks use FEC themselves so that they either can fix > the data or there is too much damage and the drive is inaccessible. It > seems to be an all-or-nothing propositition. If someone has experience > of FEC drive failures that refutes this I'd be very interested. > > The only disk failures I have experienced are on older drives without > FEC that for a given sector return an error about bad CRC but one can > carry on and read the rest of the disk. It was from this perspective > that I proposed the question that led to this thread. > > If drives are atomic in this way, it seems that the only way to achieve > redundancy is through multiple copies (either manually done or via > raid1). > > I'm still hoping that someone who knows how linux software raid work can > tell me how it decides that a drive has failed. This question was posed > in a thread about raid1 internals. > > Thanks, > > Doug. I quite agree. But in the absence of error-correction codes, uncompressed is batter. And if your error-correction software ahould happen to be unusable in several years, your errors will not be easy to corrected. Did you ever write any code in the 1970's that can't be run any more? I did. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
sarge->etch upgrade hits dependency hell
After failing to reconstitute my etch system (details abundantly available on this mailing list a few months ago), I wiped its partition and tried to install etch form scratch using installer release candidate one, only to find that lilo crashed when it was trying to make the system bootable (installation report has been submitted). So my next attempt was to copy the still-running sarge system I have on another partition into my etch partition, and to try to upgrade the copy to etch by changing /etc/apt/sources to read 'etch' where the old one reads 'sarge', starting aptitude, and upgrading. My first attempt was to try to upgrade aptitude first. No luck. Trying to upgrading aptitude immediately led to hundreds of packages that would be deleted. My guess is they were caught in the libc transition. My second attampt was to try 'U' so as to do a general upgrade. Again, huge numbers of deleted packages, and a huge number of packages to be installed, too. Went ahead with it anyway, after rescuing aptitude itself -- it had decided it was appropriate to delete aptitude without installing it again. But just typing '+' on aptitude was enough to restore it without problem, so I don't know why it decided it was to be removed in the first place. After about three to four hours of downloading, it started the upgrades. Several problems immediately. It couldn't upgrade fontconfig or pysol, and refused to try further. pysol needed python2.4, don't know why it decided to do that first. fontconfig is now unusable, which causes troubles elsewhere. After various attempts to solve the problems, I am left with a huge number of packages to be deleted/upgraded/installed, and X that won't work, and a list of 18 packages that have problems. Should I try again tomorrow in the hope that package dependencies will sort themselves out? Or should I just give up and try another way of installing tomorrow? Can't think of one now, but one will probably come to me it I think hard enough. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Are lilo and grub compatible?
I have an emergency boot disk -- a floppy on which lilo wrote an MBR. It works fine. I use it to dual-boot a functinoal sarge and a severely broken etch (well, actually the etch doesn't boot). The etch installer's lilo won't run. I could try running the installer again and telling it to try grub, but I'm afraid that that might change something that the sarge-installed lilo uses when I boot from floppy. If the etch installer's grub fails like its lilo, I'm kind of afrais that I will have no way of booting at all. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sarge->etch upgrade hits dependency hell
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 03:30:47PM -0500, Sarunas Burdulis wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > After failing to reconstitute my etch system (details abundantly
> > available on this mailing list a few months ago), I wiped its partition
> > and tried to install etch form scratch using installer release candidate
> > one, only to find that lilo crashed when it was trying to make the
> > system bootable (installation report has been submitted).
> >
> > So my next attempt was to copy the still-running sarge system I have on
> > another partition into my etch partition, and to try to upgrade the copy
> > to etch by changing /etc/apt/sources to read 'etch' where the old one
> > reads 'sarge', starting aptitude, and upgrading.
> >
> > My first attempt was to try to upgrade aptitude first. No luck.
> > Trying to upgrading aptitude immediately led to hundreds of packages
> > that would be deleted. My guess is they were caught in the libc
> > transition.
> >
> > My second attampt was to try 'U' so as to do a general upgrade. Again,
> > huge numbers of deleted packages, and a huge number of packages to be
> > installed, too. Went ahead with it anyway, after rescuing aptitude
> > itself -- it had decided it was appropriate to delete aptitude without
> > installing it again. But just typing '+' on aptitude was enough to
> > restore it without problem, so I don't know why it decided it was to be
> > removed in the first place.
> >
> > After about three to four hours of downloading, it started the upgrades.
> > Several problems immediately. It couldn't upgrade fontconfig or pysol,
> > and refused to try further. pysol needed python2.4, don't know why it
> > decided to do that first. fontconfig is now unusable, which causes
> > troubles elsewhere.
> >
> > After various attempts to solve the problems, I am left with a huge
> > number of packages to be deleted/upgraded/installed, and X that won't
> > work, and a list of 18 packages that have problems.
> >
> > Should I try again tomorrow in the hope that package dependencies will
> > sort themselves out? Or should I just give up and try another way of
> > installing tomorrow? Can't think of one now, but one will probably come
> > to me it I think hard enough.
> >
> > -- hendrik
> >
> Sound like what I have seen "as usual" while doing dist upgrades (Debian
> and Ubuntu). Several apt-get {update|upgrade|dist-upgrade|-f install}
> cycles often are needed. Some packages almost always get "stuck", i.e.
> cannot be upgraded or prevent other packages to be upgraded. For those I
> do apt-get remove and then install.
The hard part is to identify the key packages that are blocking all the
rest.
-- hendrik
>
> Sarunas
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
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> 76OdydxYco71W62XnUWadic=
> =CigD
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: backup archive format saved to disk
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 04:39:53PM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > > I wonder what NASA did for their deep-space probes like Voyager? The > recent stuff seems to be disposable (e.g. how long will this one last?), > but Voyager was meant to keep on running. They used some sort of gold > pressed record for ETI to read but I wonder what they used for the > computer's OS and data-storage in-between downloads? A few years ago I hear that they had stored a lot of their early data on magnetic tapes, which were deteriorating and in need ot copying to new media, but that there was no funding available to do this. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: backup archive format saved to disk
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 05:23:16PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 12/07/06 11:26, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Did you ever write any code in the 1970's that can't be run any more? > > I did. > > Shame on you for not writing in a portable language. Go COBOL!!! I actually did my non-surviving code in assembler for the IBM 1620, a decimal machine. I believe I had a Fortran II compiler available -- that was in the days before Fortran had been standardized. In the 70's I wrote most of an Algol 68 compiler in Algol W. The intent was to rewrite it in Algol 68 when it was done. Conversion would probably be done (mostly) mechanically, but funding ran out shortly before the first comnpiler was quite finished. I looked at it again a few years ago -- some bit rot has occurred in the lexical analyser, but most of it is still readable. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: backup archive format saved to disk
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 08:41:54PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On 12/07/06 19:25, Douglas Tutty wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 06:18:43PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > >> On 12/07/06 17:39, Mike McCarty wrote: > >>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > [snip] > > You mean there's no emulator that lets me run Fortran for the 704? I > > SO loved conditional gotos :-) > > Sheah, computed GOTOs are great!! I use them all the time scripting > batch jobs in OpenVMS. They make code 10x easier to write and read. Datamation once published an article describing the computed COME FROM statement. :-) -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sarge->etch upgrade hits dependency hell
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 04:50:34PM -0500, Douglas Tutty wrote: > On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 02:49:57PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > After failing to reconstitute my etch system (details abundantly > > available on this mailing list a few months ago), I wiped its partition > > and tried to install etch form scratch using installer release candidate > > one, only to find that lilo crashed when it was trying to make the > > system bootable (installation report has been submitted). > > > > So my next attempt was to copy the still-running sarge system I have on > > another partition into my etch partition, and to try to upgrade the copy > > to etch by changing /etc/apt/sources to read 'etch' where the old one > > reads 'sarge', starting aptitude, and upgrading. > > Hi Hendrik, > > It would have been easier (and still may be) to fix the boot loader > thing on etch than what you've tried. > > When I installed Etch (pre RC1), grub didn't get installed. I rebooted > the installer in rescue mode and installed grub from there and it > worked. You could try that with lilo or switch to grub. > > As far as upgrading, if you check the release notes you'll see that you > have to upgrade aptitude before you do anything else. I tried that, and got a *huge* raft of proposed deletions -- just from asking for aptitude to be upgraded. > Read the whole > release notes and see if anything else is applicable to your situation. I should have done that, too. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: sarge->etch upgrade hits dependency hell
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 05:05:05PM -0500, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 03:30:47PM -0500, Sarunas Burdulis wrote:
> > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> > Hash: SHA1
> > >
> > Sound like what I have seen "as usual" while doing dist upgrades (Debian
> > and Ubuntu). Several apt-get {update|upgrade|dist-upgrade|-f install}
> > cycles often are needed. Some packages almost always get "stuck", i.e.
> > cannot be upgraded or prevent other packages to be upgraded. For those I
> > do apt-get remove and then install.
>
> The hard part is to identify the key packages that are blocking all the
> rest.
It seems to me that there must be a better way of organising all this.
Has anyone done any kind of mathematical analysis of package
repository management?
-- hendrik
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Re: Are lilo and grub compatible?
On Thu, Dec 07, 2006 at 06:23:35PM -0500, Jos? Alburquerque wrote: > Yes, you're right about that. GRUB can be installed in any BR (of any > partition) and in that way grub and lilo *are not* mutually exclusive. > But if you're planning on installing grub or lilo on the mbr then I > think that they indeed are mutually exclusive. (Am I right on this?) I was considering installing both grub and lilo to MBR -- but MBRs of different disk drives -- Lilo to /dev/fd0, and grub to /dev/hda. Then I can determine which gets used by pushing the floppy disk in or out. My question was really whether the two conflict anywhere *else* but the MBR. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
