Re: Debian 11 Live USB with persistence?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El mié, 18 ago 2021 a las 8:38, Anssi Saari () escribió:
>
>
> I've tried a couple of ways to get a USB stick to boot (bios not efi)
> with persistence from debian-live-11.0.0-amd64-kde+nonfree.iso. Just
> stuffing that to the stick produces a working stick, just no
> persistence.
>
> The sparse instructions at
> https://wiki.debian.org/DebianLive/LiveUsbPersistence result in a stick
> that doesn't boot. Blinking underscore text cursor top left of the
> otherwise black screen. So syslinux doesn't even start.
>
> Using mkusb-minp and the instructions at
> https://help.ubuntu.com/community/mkusb/minp/details I end up with a
> black screen with a movable mouse cursor. So KDE tries to start but gets
> stuck somewhere. I can switch to a virtual console and kill sddm but
> trying to start KDE with startx ends up in the same situation
> again. Granted, the instructions are for Debian 10.
>
> Also, somehow mkusb-minp seems to do changes to the live system that I
> really don't like. Other than messing up KDE it also seems to go and
> mount all partitions RW and feels free to run fsck on them too. Wild for
> a live system and I'd really rather it didn't do that. Straight up live
> system doesn't do that or at least I haven't noticed (and I'm pretty
> sure I'd notice.) I hope this is not a common idea on how a live system
> with persistence should behave?
>
> A quick try with GRML and their tool grml2usb seems to work for text
> boot. I guess I can see what happens if I install plasma-desktop or
> actually task-kde-desktop on it.
>
> Anyways, any known working methods? The goal here is to try out Nvidia's
> proprietary drivers in Bullseye before updating. I'm sure I can do that
> without a DE to save some time come to think of it. My attempts to use
> drivers from the nvidia-driver package in a live system hasn't been
> successful so far, no image from the card. It might be caused by the
> nouveau driver loading automatically. That's why I'm trying to get
> persistence going, so that I can reboot with nouveau blacklisted.
>
> Hoping for answers.

Hi.

I wanted to do something exactly like that some months ago.
What I ended up doing is using a normal Debian installation
with an overlay file system mounted over the root.
It is too tricky to get the live images working with persistence.

Well, try this.  Install Debian with a normal ISO image from your disk;
you need to boot with the linux and initrd.gz from here:
https://ftp.debian.org/debian/dists/bullseye/main/installer-/current/images/hd-media/

 ^
Substitute  with the corresponding string to your architecture
(i386, amd64, etc).

>From this installer you can find the ISO in your disk and install
Debian in your USB,
or in a virtual machine and then copy with "dd" the disk image to your USB.
Then, change whatever you need to change.
After that, you will need to boot from the USB adding "break=bottom"
to the command of linux; which, for convenience, you can achieve modifying
the /boot/grub/grub.cfg in your USB and not have to do it every time you boot
pressing "e"; or do this last thing if you pretend to boot the USB only once.

>From the spawned shell you need to make a directory both in the rootfs
and in /root/ (here this is the USB, not root's home directory).
Mount a tmpfs over the directory in the rootfs.  Create three
directories in there
which you will use as the lowerdir, upperdir and workdir options of the overlay.
Patch /root/etc/fstab to reflect the final mounts you will have when finished;
you can do this at the end, but the patch would be lost then.
Run "modprobe -d /root/ overlay" to load the overlayfs module.
Check that /root/ is mounted as read-only; if not, fix it.  Mount
/root/ with "--bind"
at /dir/low/ (replace as appropriate, "dir" is the directory you made before
where the tmpfs is mounted).  Unmount /root/ (this is necessary).
Now, mount this:

mount -t overlay -o
lowerdir=/dir/low/,upperdir=/dir/up/,workdir=/dir/work overlay /root/

Mount with "--rbind" the tmpfs to the same directory you made in /root/.
Unmount the tmpfs and its submounts from the rootfs.
Exit from the shell.

You should get a normal Debian system with a read-only filesystem
and a temporary space for modifications.  I like to mount everything with the
noatime option also.

Some programs fail to work because AppArmor doesn't work well with this
mount configuration: LibreOffice is one of them.  You can boot the kernel
with apparmor=off in its command line to disable it.

You can save some changes from the tmpfs to the lower read-only
filesystem if you first mount it with "--bind" somewhere else and then
remount it with "-o remount,rw" there.  Be careful because the
documentation says it is undefined behaviour to do this, although
I have tried it and it works fine for changes in the lower directory tree.

I hope this helps.  Have a nice day.

SDDM doesn't show up at boot

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hi.

I was trying to set up the keyboard for the whole system
with "localectl set-x11-keymap pc105 us altgr-intl".  Before
that, it did not have the altgr-intl variant.

I have LXQt installed, with SDDM as the display manager.
After booting the PC again, SDDM was no longer showing up
when the PC finished starting.  Through some research
reading the systemd journal, I found that "sddm-greeter"
could not connect to the X server.

I also found that, if I login at a virtual console as root and run:
"systemctl isolate multi-user.target" and then
"systemctl isolate graphical.target"
to try to reload the graphical system, then everything works fine
and SDDM shows up as normal.  It also allows me to use
the keyboard with the chosen configuration.

Later, I removed the "altgr-intl" option from "/etc/default/keyboard"
and rebooted, and voilá... everything was back to normal and
SDDM showed up at the end of the boot process.

I tried rebooting many times, changing some localization settings,
and the problem appeared exactly only when the "altgr-intl"
was enabled in "/etc/default/keyboard".  The keyboard works
well when you set it up through LXQt.

Now, while writing this message, I tried it again and now
the kernel reports a segmentation fault in "sddm-greeter"
after it reads "/usr/share/xsessions/lxqt.desktop".  Of course,
everything fails again leaving me with only the mouse cursor
and a black screen.

Before I go to report this as a bug, I wanted to know
if I am not the only one with this problem.

Please, ¿could someone with LXQt and a little free time
tell me whether the system fails to start when adding
XKBVARIANT="altgr-intl" to "/etc/default/keyboard"
and then rebooting?  You can go back to normal behaviour
just logging in at a virtual console, removing the "altgr-intl"
part from "/etc/default/keyboard" and rebooting.

Thanks in advance.

Re: SDDM doesn't show up at boot

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Oh, I forgot to say: I'm using Debian 10.10 i386

El dom, 17 oct 2021 a las 17:12, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
() escribió:
>
> Hi.
>
> I was trying to set up the keyboard for the whole system
> with "localectl set-x11-keymap pc105 us altgr-intl".  Before
> that, it did not have the altgr-intl variant.
>
> I have LXQt installed, with SDDM as the display manager.
> After booting the PC again, SDDM was no longer showing up
> when the PC finished starting.  Through some research
> reading the systemd journal, I found that "sddm-greeter"
> could not connect to the X server.
>
> I also found that, if I login at a virtual console as root and run:
> "systemctl isolate multi-user.target" and then
> "systemctl isolate graphical.target"
> to try to reload the graphical system, then everything works fine
> and SDDM shows up as normal.  It also allows me to use
> the keyboard with the chosen configuration.
>
> Later, I removed the "altgr-intl" option from "/etc/default/keyboard"
> and rebooted, and voilá... everything was back to normal and
> SDDM showed up at the end of the boot process.
>
> I tried rebooting many times, changing some localization settings,
> and the problem appeared exactly only when the "altgr-intl"
> was enabled in "/etc/default/keyboard".  The keyboard works
> well when you set it up through LXQt.
>
> Now, while writing this message, I tried it again and now
> the kernel reports a segmentation fault in "sddm-greeter"
> after it reads "/usr/share/xsessions/lxqt.desktop".  Of course,
> everything fails again leaving me with only the mouse cursor
> and a black screen.
>
> Before I go to report this as a bug, I wanted to know
> if I am not the only one with this problem.
>
> Please, ¿could someone with LXQt and a little free time
> tell me whether the system fails to start when adding
> XKBVARIANT="altgr-intl" to "/etc/default/keyboard"
> and then rebooting?  You can go back to normal behaviour
> just logging in at a virtual console, removing the "altgr-intl"
> part from "/etc/default/keyboard" and rebooting.
>
> Thanks in advance.

Re: SDDM doesn't show up at boot

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El lun, 18 oct 2021 a las 5:51, Andrew M.A. Cater
() escribió:
> Hi,
>
> First things first: bring your machine up to date - there is now 10.11.
> [Or update to Debian 11 - but read release notes :) ]

Ok, I'm working on it.

> I think you may have two independent problems here: changing keyboard
> layout shouldn't cause problems with the X server.

I do not think that the problem is with the X server itself, but with SDDM.
See what I wrote here:

El dom, 17 oct 2021 a las 17:12, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
() escribió:
> Now, while writing this message, I tried it again and now
> the kernel reports a segmentation fault in "sddm-greeter"
> after it reads "/usr/share/xsessions/lxqt.desktop".  Of course,
> everything fails again leaving me with only the mouse cursor
> and a black screen.

The problem is with the "sddm-greeter".  SDDM itself
(I mean, "/usr/bin/sddm") is still running when this happens,
and I can see and move the cursor around.

> All best, as ever,
>
> Andy Cater

Thanks for your reply, have a nice day.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: SDDM doesn't show up at boot

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El lun, 18 oct 2021 a las 12:07, David Wright
() escribió:
>
> On Sun 17 Oct 2021 at 17:12:54 (-0400), Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
>
> > I was trying to set up the keyboard for the whole system
> > with "localectl set-x11-keymap pc105 us altgr-intl".  Before
> > that, it did not have the altgr-intl variant.
>
> On account of having run Debian a long time, I set up my keyboard
> using   dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration, so I have no
> experience of running localectl. However, the man page says:
>
>  set-x11-keymap LAYOUT [MODEL [VARIANT [OPTIONS]]]
>  Set the system default keyboard mapping for X11 and the virtual
>  console. This takes a keyboard mapping name (such as "de" or
>  "us"), and possibly a model, variant, and options, see kbd(4) for
>  details. Unless --no-convert is passed, the selected setting is
>  also applied as the system console keyboard mapping, after
>  converting it to the closest matching console keyboard mapping.
>
> So might it be worth trying:
>
>   localectl set-x11-keymap us pc105 altgr-intl

Ups, I made a mistake writing the email, sorry.  I did write the command
right.  Thanks for the correction.

> Could you post the contents of /etc/default/keyboard after
> running each of the commands above. (It seems pointless for me to try
> to see the effects, as I don't use a DE, DM or "greeter".)

Before the command:
## KEYBOARD CONFIGURATION FILE
#
## Consult the keyboard(5) manual page.
#
#XKBMODEL="pc105"
#XKBLAYOUT="us"
#XKBVARIANT=""
#XKBOPTIONS=""
#
#BACKSPACE="guess"
#
(without the first column of #)

After the command:
#XKBMODEL=pc105
#XKBLAYOUT=us
#XKBVARIANT=altgr-intl
#BACKSPACE=guess
#
(without the #)

> Cheers,
> David.

Thanks for your reply.  Have a nice day.
-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

[SOLVED] SDDM doesn't show up at boot

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hello,

Thank you very much Mr. Cater and Mr. Wright.

El lun, 18 oct 2021 a las 5:51, Andrew M.A. Cater
() escribió:
> First things first: bring your machine up to date - there is now 10.11.
> [Or update to Debian 11 - but read release notes :) ]

Just after updating Debian to 10.11, the problem was solved.
Now I can set up the keyboard system-wide correctly,
and SDDM is starting as expected.  Thanks again,
Mr. Cater.

Also,

El lun, 18 oct 2021 a las 12:07, David Wright
() escribió:
> On account of having run Debian a long time, I set up my keyboard
> using   dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration, so I have no
> experience of running localectl. However, the man page says:

I tried "dpkg-reconfigure keyboard-configuration" and I have to admit
it was much easier to use.  It has very well explained steps with full
keyboard configuration and a straightforward selection process
among the options.

Unfortunately, it did not work on the virtual terminal, only on the
X Window System.  "localectl" also sets some configuration
in "/etc/vconsole.conf" but it does not work either.  However,
one of the last steps in the keyboard-configuration
of dpkg-reconfigure suggested that I could use the keys combination
Ctrl + . (period) as a compose key (no matter whether I chose
another key as a compose key); thanks to that, I can now write
accented letters in the console.  Thanks again, Mr. Wright.

Have a good day.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: [SOLVED] SDDM doesn't show up at boot

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hello,

El mié, 20 oct 2021 a las 23:38, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
() escribió:
> Just after updating Debian to 10.11, the problem was solved.
> Now I can set up the keyboard system-wide correctly,
> and SDDM is starting as expected.  Thanks again,
> Mr. Cater.

I have some bad news, it is happening again.  Now, the problem is not
the keyboard; instead, if I change from virtual terminal (VT) 7 to 1 pressing
Ctrl + Alt + F1 before SDDM finishes loading, then when I come back
to VT 7 it gets stuck again.

I saw the logs with "journalctl -xe" and the messages are the same,
"sddm-helper" can not connect to display :0 of the X server,
or any display and it returns with an error.  The "systemd" session
for "sddm" is stopped and the VT 7 only has a black screen and a cursor;
SDDM itself and the X server is still running.

What do you think?  Should I report this as a bug?

Well, thanks for your time and help.

Have a nice day.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: [SOLVED] SDDM doesn't show up at boot

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hi,

El vie, 22 oct 2021 a las 10:50, David Wright
() escribió:
> That may depend on whether you ran it on a "real" VC (rather an
> oxymoron) or on an Alt-Ctrl-Fn console reached from X. I've
> certainly had aspects not work when run in the latter manner,
> particularly /etc/console-setup/remap.inc stuff IIRC.

Excuse me, Mr. Wright, what do you mean by a "real" virtual console?
Those ones you reach by pressing Ctrl+Alt+Fn are virtual consoles,
right?

Well, it is a little confusing.

Have a good day.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hello.

I'm new to GNU/Linux systems.  I would like to know
why the RAM requirements showed here:
https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/ch03s04.en.html
are double the size of those displayed here:
https://www.debian.org/releases/stretch/amd64/ch03s04.html.en

Excuse my ignorance, I have a bit old laptop and I don't know if it would
be better
to have Debian 9 so I can, possibly, load KDE on it, or instead Debian 10
but having to limit myself to lightweight applications only.

Anyway, thanks in advance for any help you could give me.

PS: If I'm not using the mailing list properly, let me know,
I never used any before.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> I have a 1GB laptop here
> (with XFCE4) and using Firefox on it has been painful for many
> years already.

May I ask, what version of Debian do you use?

I have been reading throughout the Web
that Xfce4 is not so lightweight as it was before.
Apparently, its performance is comparable to that of KDE
or GNOME.

PS: sorry, I forgot to send this reply to the mailing list.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Debian testing.

I see that you use the latest version of the system,
maybe it could have some impact on performance.

> I wouldn't know since I use XFCE4 everywhere, but the desktop
> environment only has some impact.  When it comes to Firefox, the main
> issue is Firefox itself and the pages you visit.

I had trouble with Firefox in the past on Windows 7,
I had to change to Chrome then.  Surprisingly,
now Firefox is behaving relatively well.

I thought I would not have the same problem changing from Windows to Debian.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> G'day
>
> My 2 cents worth, Deb10 with either Mate or xfce desktop. KDE/plasma is
great, but I find it slow to load on i7 with 8G ram and add. It has more
config options, but I've gotten over that. Oh, I don't boot often, but I've
grown impatient.
>
> As I said, my 2 cents worth.

Wow, it looks like KDE is really bloated.
I was thinking that LXQt would be an acceptable alternative,
at least it has a configuration center.
Honestly, I would not like to have to use the command line
everyday to adjust some setting.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> IMHO: it is better to use the latest Debian even on the old laptop unless
your laptop is 15 years old.
>
> You can try LXDE: https://wiki.debian.org/LXDE
> It is very lightweight:)
>
> "tasksel" (tool that runs when you install Debian) asks you which DE to
enable. You can choose LXDE there.
>
> I run it on my 2011 laptop (sandy bridge) and it works very well.

Thanks for your advice, I think my laptop is from 2013,
but it is Pineview, id est Intel Atom.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Tell us more about your laptop. Have you tried booting a Debian live CD
> on it?

Well, my laptop is an Acer Aspire One D255E,
it has 1GB of RAM and an Intel Atom Inside N455
with Intel GMA integrated.

> I recommend against Debian 9, as it is getting old. I generally
> recommend keeping to the current Debian release for security reasons.

Hmm, I thought that Debian 9 received enough security updates, and it still
have LTS and ELTS remaining.  I don't think it is older than Windows 7
(from 2007, if I remember well)

> root@dragon:~# free -h
>totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
 available
> Mem:   1.2Gi   306Mi   142Mi   6.0Mi   803Mi
 771Mi
> Swap:  975Mi   4.0Mi   971Mi
> Total: 2.2Gi   311Mi   1.1Gi
> root@dragon:~#

It doesn't look bad at all.  Windows usually have 100MiB to 200MiB free
when there are some programs open.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> By the way: some people use bare window managers instead of full-fledged
desktop environments.
>
> Some window managers (like TWM) can run on 8MB of RAM:). The smallest one
is called CWM (created by OpenBSD).
> https://packages.debian.org/buster/cwm
>
> but it is for these old UNIX gurus who never leave the command line, not
for regular users.

He, he.  I think it would not be a good idea, since I'm
changing from Windows to Debian.  I don't want to crash
my head against a wall trying to use my PC.

PS: sorry, I forgot to send this to the mailing list again.  GMail's reply
function doesn't help.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> How much ram do you have?
> If it is 4Gb or less you should probably use i386 instead of the amd64
version of Debian.

Yes, I was reading the amd64 version because I was also
attempting to install Debian on a 4GB and Intel Core 2 Duo vPro
desktop PC, which I thought could run Debian 10 with KDE.

> I'd start with Debian 10 and LXDE or LxQt:
> https://opensource.com/article/19/12/lxqt-lxde-linux-desktop
>
> and switch to the Debian 9 only if they work really slow.

Sounds reasonable, but I would prefer to not download
4 GB of the DVD image twice, my internet connection is not so fast.

> Desktop environment and Linux kernel are not the only CPU and memory
consumers.
> Modern browsers and modern websites are heavy. I am not sure if
average site works well with Firefox that runs on Pineview, but it is worth
trying.

It works well on Windows if you don't have too much tabs opened at the same
time.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Definitely not) Use the Desktop environment like lxde/lxqt: it uses
concepts you are already familiar with: Desktop, main menu, icons etc..

I used a Live CD with LXDE on the other PC,
it looked fine but it was a bit disappointing compared to Windows 7 Starter.

I could not install a firmware package
(yes, I have to or it will be no WiFi), because I could not make it work
without rebooting the PC.  The Live CD has its limitations.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. You are correct that 9 is still
> getting support, especially security updates. However, older versions
> of Debian don't get newer versions of the software. Not all security
> fixes can be backported. So there is a slow, imperceptible gap between
> older versions and newer. You are almost certainly just fine on 9 now,
> and will be until LTS support ends. But 10 will be more secure at some
> point. Right now, it's a judgment call you'll have to make.

Well, I could try to wait a little with Debian 9 as I did with Windows 7.

That thing of no software updates is very weird.
Windows 7 is many years old yet I can still use the latest version of
Firefox.
Isn't there a way to update user programs without updating
the operating system itself.  I read there was something called backports,
but the warning about instability just terrifies me;
I know more or less how to fix Windows, but not Debian.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

>> That thing of no software updates is very weird.
>> Windows 7 is many years old yet I can still use the latest version of
Firefox.
>
> Yes, but you can't run the latest Chrome on the Windows XP. And you can't
run it on Pentium 3 (because it doesn't support the latest SSE4).
> Modern software needs a modern OS and modern hardware.
>
> Microsoft has much more resources than Debian team, so they can provide
support much longer than Debian.
> This is because of money Microsoft gets for their products. But Debian is
free. Maintainers are volunteers. They simply do not have enough time to
spend it on backporting software to the ten years old distro..
>
> Sometimes software can't run on modern Windows, and Microsoft creates
shims for it (you can google for that term).
> So, they have hacks saying "if this app is called [some_app_name], change
API behaviour to support it".
>
> Linux kernel ABI is backward compatible ("We do not break the user land"
(c) Linus Torvalds): that means old software should run on the latest
kernel, but not vice versa.
> But software also depends on libraries, and libraries are not always
backward compatible.
>
> The Debian team guarantees that software installed with package manager
(apt and friends) should run fine.
> You can try to download the latest Firefox and run it on Debian 8, but
there are no guarantees for it to work.
>
> Debian has thing called LTS:
> https://wiki.debian.org/LTS
>
> People who really need long LTS use commercial distros like Redhat. But
IMHO it doesn't make any sense to use it unless you run a business that
depends on it.
> For desktop I recommend to use the "stable" version of Debian and upgrade
it every several years.
> (I now run bullseye which is the "testing" version, but it will become
stable in the next month or so: not a bleeding edge, but pretty modern and
stable at the same time)
>
>> Isn't there a way to update user programs without updating
>> the operating system itself.
>
>
> Classic UNIX and Linux approach is to install everything via package
managers and use the latest version available in package manager for the
certain OS version.
> There are modern ways to install software along with all its dependencies
much like Windows people do.
> Canonical (the company that runs Ubuntu) provides so-called "snaps".
> There is also "docker": a tool that downloads all dependencies and only
depends on your kernel.
> But again: the latest version of Firefox MAY need something that the
ancient kernel simply doesn't provide.
>
> The safest way to use Debian is to:
> * Run "stable" version on Debian
> * Upgrade it to the next "stable" once Debian team releases it
> * Install everything from the package manager.
>
> It could happen that you wouldn't be able to install the latest version
of software released last week, but on the other hand you will be sure that
this software was tested and it is stable and compatible with everything
else in your system and there are a lot of people who run the same version
of this software (along with all other libraries and the kernel) on their
production servers, so everything is rock-solid.

Well, thanks for your sincerity.  Now I understands things a bit better.
I think I will be installing Debian 10 then.
Thank you and thanks everyone else for your help.

Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hello.

While I was making my research before installing Debian
I saw that the filesystem hierarchy is not so friendly
(I'm new to GNU/Linux operating systems).
I saw there was a distribution called GoboLinux which
addressed that inconvenience, but according to a DistroWatch review,
it is not usable at all.

In my opinion, I think there would be no need to make another distro
to make such customizations to the system, it would be better
if it were implemented at a package level on an existing distro.

So, my question is: Is there a way to put another, more friendly,
filesystem hierarchy to Debian, like the one of GoboLinux?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hello.

I would like to install Debian 10 with the KDE Plasma task
on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and Intel Core 2 Duo E6550 @ 2.33 GHz,
it doesn't have a GPU.
Do you think it would run without problems
or would it be slow and laggy?

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> I would not do that. I run xfce under Debian 10.4 in 8GB, it's very light
weight for a window manager. MUCH lighter than KDE. But still a little slow
sometimes, with more than a few apps open SubCommandante Geovanis
> 😂

Oh, it looks it would be very slowly then.
It is weird is doesn't looks like I have been reading:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/10/23/bold-prediction-kde-will-steal-the-lightweight-linux-desktop-crown-in-2020/?sh=763cb23826d2

I can't say anything about, because I never used any of them.

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Yes, I think it will not work - better try lighter desktops or the older
KDE
> that is called now Trinity Desktop

How is that TDE?  Is it like KDE but much lighter?
What are the main differences?

Sorry, I'm new to GNU/Linux OSes.

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Try Enlightenment.
> It's very configurable once get familiar with all the options.
> Cheers!

I saw it was there, but it looks a little difficult to get it
working according to what I read about it.

Also, I don't know if loading Gtk+, Qt and EFL at the same
time at RAM would be a good idea.  But, well... maybe I'm wrong, I don't
know really, just guessing.

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Yeah it will work, although it'll work a lot better if you can get an
extra 4Gb off Ebay, I paid about  £25.

By it will work you mean: your computer will boot; or: it will be usable?
He he, thanks for your help.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

On 03/09/2021 23:54, "Weaver"  wrote:
> What negative experiences have you had with it, so far, that inclines
> you to this point of view?

On 03/10/2021 05:08, "Darac Marjal"  wrote:
> How is the filesystem "unfriendly"? It's a filing system. It's purpose
> is to make it easier to find files.

> Perhaps this is something that could be implemented by the base
> operating system, but then we come back to the original question of WHY?
> What's WRONG with the current filesystem hierarchy, in your opinion? You
> stated that it's "unfriendly", but without backing up that assertion.

Well, I just said "unfriendly" because the directories' names
don't tell you with much clarity what is in there.
Of course, since you are accustomed to it, it would look totally normal for
you.

> Neither approach is inherently better than the other. And both
> approaches allow for some usage the other way. On Linux, you can make
> /opt/some-external-program and dump all of that external programs
> binaries, libaries, data files there. On Windows, it's not unheard of
> for applications to drop libraries into C:\Windows\System32, knowing
> that that's a shared folder which anyone can reach.

Hmm, it doesn't necessarily means another philosophy.
Perhaps on Windows, programs have they own libraries to avoid compatibility
issues.
I don't think it would be a good idea to let third-parties programs
modify your system at will.  If Windows provided that libraries
by itself as Debian does, things would have been different
(although compatibility issues could arise without a mix of both
approaches).

> I think you're wrong here, though. It WOULD be necessary to make another
> distro. If you say to developers "you can put your libraries into
> /usr/lib *or* /Program/$pkgname/Libraries/", then you're going to have
> problems. Look at the issues currently happening because Debian has said
> "You can uses SysV *or* systemd": not every package is at the same level
> of parity there.

Perhaps you're right here, but some experimenting could help to see if it
would work.

Please, let me explain better allowing you to read this:
https://github.com/gobolinux/Documentation/wiki/The-GoboLinux-Filesystem-Hierarchy

That hierarchy is not perfect: for example, the Index is a very weird
approach
to solve some problems, although it is not so bad; but at least is a
starting point.

You could put libraries on /System/Libraries instead of /usr/lib.
It looks more descriptive.

He he, yes, my problem is a little trivial one,
but I just wanted to see there was a solution already.

By the way, what does "usr" mean?  I thought it was "user"
untill I took a look inside.  Just asking.

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Commandante Alpha-
> Full disclosure, I have always preferred KDE over gnome and alternatives.
It's just more complete and tight. But there are some older systems I can't
really use it on. I don't NEED a massive window manager and apps, I was a
fan of twm for years. I dont mind xfce either, it's light and solid. But
can't really be compared to KDE. Over and out.
> SubCommandante Geovanis 😊

Received, SubCommandante Geovanis.
Looks like it might deserve a try.
Commandante Alpha, out.
:)

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El 10/03/2021 07:53, "Marco Möller" 
escribió:
>
>
> On 10.03.21 04:34, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
>>
>> Hello.
>>
>> I would like to install Debian 10 with the KDE Plasma task
>> on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and Intel Core 2 Duo E6550 @ 2.33 GHz,
>> it doesn't have a GPU.
>> Do you think it would run without problems
>> or would it be slow and laggy?
>>
>> Thanks in advance for your answers.
>>
> I am happily using KDE Plasma on such a system as my daily system with
the following restrictions:
> (1) The L2 cache of your CPU should have 3 MiB or more; with only 2 MiB
it is not always responsive as wished, and with only 1 MiB it is due to low
responsiveness in my experience not usable anymore; the number of CPU
cores, threads and frequency in my experience are not the key factors for a
responsive = smoothly usable system;
> (2) You might want to limit or deactivate the automatic indexing provided
by "baloo", configurable also in the System Settings GUI under "Search" in
subcategories "File Search" and "KRunner"; right after installation it
wants to index all your system, and the system might in this state not be
responsive for some 2 days; I therefore deactivate this as soon as
possible, get the rest of my system set up and usable, and only later, when
I can leave the system run for a weekend without the need to interactively
work with it, I reactivate baloo features again, but only the ones for
which I indeed know that I want to use them; once the initially very system
consuming indexing is done, this baloo provided search "accelerator" does
not impact responsiveness anymore; it continues in the background to
smoothly update the indexing of newly added content without interfering
with the actions called in the foreground by the user;
> (3) I am sorry having to suggest even as an enthusiastic KDE user, that
you might want to avoid installing the KDE PIM suite related apps like
KMail; although I loved the design of its GUI and work flow a lot, it was
not only slowing down the responsiveness of the desktop often, but also
crashed too often; this experience is from 5 and from 2.5 years ago; after
this bad experiences and Thunderbird meanwhile being very well maintained
again, I am not going to give KMail another try and will very satisfied
stay with Thunderbird for email, calendar and address book;
>
> I finally 2.5 years ago came from long time back in the past GNOME usage,
then Xfce, then Openbox, then LXDE, then LXQt, then LXQt with kwin usage to
KDE Plasma and confirm that KDE Plasma is very competitive on memory and
speed. I do not see any reason for not using it on old machines, see my
system specifications attached below. You will see that I am on KDE Plasma
as currently offered in "Debian/testing - bullseye" and do not know about
the very newest version 5.21.
>
> Operating System: Debian GNU/Linux
> KDE Plasma Version: 5.20.5
> KDE Frameworks Version: 5.78.0
> Qt Version: 5.15.2
> Kernel Version: 5.10.0-4-amd64
> OS Type: 64-bit
> Processors: 2 × Intel® Core™2 Duo CPU P7450 @ 2.13GHz
> Memory: 2,9 GiB of RAM
> Graphics Processor: Mesa DRI Mobile Intel® GM45 Express Chipset
>
> The CPU and memory consumption of pure KDE Plasma with only the "Konsole"
terminal app open for generating the presented data are these:
>
> $ sudo inxi -Cm
> Memory:RAM: total: 2.88 GiB used: 1.2 GiB (41.8%)
> Array-1: capacity: 4 GiB slots: 2 EC: None
> Device-1: M1 size: 2 GiB speed: 667 MT/s
> Device-2: M2 size: 2 GiB speed: 667 MT/s
> CPU:   Info: Dual Core model: Intel Core2 Duo P7450 bits: 64 type:
MCP L2 cache: 3 MiB
> Speed: 798 MHz min/max: 800/2133 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 798 2: 798
>
> $ free -h
>totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
available
> Mem:   2.9Gi   779Mi   1.2Gi   282Mi   959Mi
 1.7Gi
> Swap:  7.6Gi71Mi   7.6Gi
>
> You will see that pure KDE Plasma is easily provided at lowest processor
speed and with a smaller than 800 MB memory footprint.
>
>
> If running Thunderbird for writing this answer to you, having a messenger
app running, having the System Monitor and the terminal app Konsole started
in order to check for you my current memory usage, and having Firefox open
with 6 Tabs while all Firefox cache for better responsiveness is placed in
the RAM and not on the HDD (actually I am running all my system even
without a HDD from a USB2.0 pendrive only), you will see that the CPU is
busy - but my system is still nicely responsive and doing for me flawlessly
what I ask it to do.
> You might have noticed that on my hardware I am only getting access to 3
GiB RAM, although 4 GiB are installed, and I never found out how I could
overcome this limitation.
> When &q

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> I've traditionally understood it to stand for "UNIX Shared Resources",
> but V.E.R.A. (the Virtual Entity of Relevant Acronyms) doesn't list that
> as a definition; the nearest definition it does have which looks like it
> might be related is "User Service Routines".

So it is an acronym then.  Thanks for your answer,
it gives me some light about everything.
I think it would be better if it was called "USR" at least
to reflect the fact it is an acronym,
but it could have been "Shared" or "Resources".
You see what I mean?

> --
>The Wanderer
>
> The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
> persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
> progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw
>

Hmm, very interesting this quote.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Wikipedia [1] leans towards the derivation from "user":
>
>   usr   The "user file system": originally the directory holding
> user home directories,[15] but already by the Third Edition
> of Research Unix, ca. 1973, reused to split the operating
> system's programs over two disks [...]
>
> ...and as usual they have references to follow, which I'm too lazy to
> do now (as usual ;-)
>
> Cheers
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usr
>
>  - t

It's what I'm trying to say, it looks like something,
because someday ago it was, but it is something else.

With whole respect to UNIX, do we really need backward
compatibility with it, or something alike?

I saw another directory called "etc" that sounds like "etcetera"
but appears to be "configurations".  What does "etc" mean?  Again, I'm not
trying to be destructively critical, just asking.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Been there. When first using Debian I was on dial-up ;}
> There are several vendors with Debian on various media.
> See: https://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/
>
> My current connection is faster (via cellular network) and my service has
a 2GB/month data cap.
> I am currently using
>   http://www.linuxcollections.com/products/debian/debian.htm
>   [located in California, USA]
>
> I purchase a USB stick with all 16 DVDs of a release.
> They also offer DVD#1 for each processor and a live DVD for a desktop for
selected processor.
> For clearer description see
> https://linuxcollections.com/products/debian/debianusb.htm
>
> HTH

I think that buying DVDs is not my option.  Thanks for the suggestion
anyway,
sounds like a good idea if I had the opportunity.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

>   i wouldn't bother.  really it is just a huge waste of time
> for no real gain.
>
>   the problem is that you are new to linux/unix type system
> and so you don't understand the history or layout as it is.
>
>   learn what is there as it is.  you rarely need to work
> outside /home/ for most things as a normal
> user.  when i install a new system i like to have /home
> in a different partition from the rest of the system.
>
>   as root you may need to understand more but it isn't
> that often you should be having to do a whole lot of
> changes once you have a stable install set up.
>
>
>   songbird

Well, yes, as I said, my problem is quite trivial.
I was just thinking it could be a little improvement.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> I think all these shortened names derive from a time when computing
> resources were limited. If you're using an 80x25 terminal over at 50
> bits per second to a time-shared mainframe, it's more comfortable to
> type "/usr" than it is to type "/Programs". Easier to type "cp" than to
> type "copy", and so on. It's all fairly arbitrary. Why C:\? Why not
> System:\? Convention and history and inertia.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usr
> >
> >  - t

But why do we have to use a system designed for such old computers
when the now old computers are much more capable than that.
I think it needs a redesign.

By the way, C:\ looks fine since it is just a letter succession mechanism
for labeling storage devices: C, D, E... it is like: usb0, usb1, usb2...

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> As above, there's no inherent reason this naming convention *couldn't*
> be changed, but doing so would be a vast and invasive thing, which would
> probably break at least a few things that one might not notice. Doing it
> at all would basically require you to design the entire distribution
> around the new naming model - and so far, AFAIK, nobody with the
> resources to put together a distro has found doing this to be worth the
> bother.

Yes, you're right there.  It is not easy to make such changes.
On practical terms: very difficult.

But, if you use some path translation mechanism
to bring compatibility between the two systems, they could work together
without breaking anything... just thinking.

It looks like if I want it, I will have to do it by myself,
since today no one has made it a reality.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Think of it as a vocabulary shift when moving from one section of the
country to another.  I felt I had to learn a new language when moving from
very urban New York to rural Missouri. You get used to it ;}

Yes, it is my only option for now.

Well, thank you all for your help.  Have a good day everyone.

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Debian bullseye (soon to be Debian 11) is already in the "freeze" stage.
>
> It should be quite reliable in daily usage though you are still going to
> see (small) updates to many packages.
>
> Official security support is not started yet, but security relevant
> updates should be prioritised whenever possible.
>
> In my opinion it should be fine for a desktop system, but I wouldn't run
> it on a server exposed to the internet.
>
> Kind regard,
> Andrei
> --
> http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser

Thanks for the advice

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> If you have the drive-space for it, install it, along with something
lighter like Cinnamon or LXQt.
>
> Then all it takes to switch between the alternatives is to log out, find
the settings icon on your login manager, select your alternative, and log
back in.
>
> If KDE proves to be too sluggish, log out/in, switching to a leaner
alternative.
>
> You can install and try dozens of alternatives.
> --
> Kent West<")))><
> Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com

Thanks for the suggestion.  But, according to the others here
I think that everything should go fine.

I'm a little optimistic now.  Everything I was looking is an opinion
from someone already using KDE Plasma and some advice.

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> I recommend to use "testing" (currently Bullseye) on an individual
Laptop/Desktop Computer, and leave "stable" for server or cooperate end
user installations. Usually "testing" is very stable concerning reliability
for the every day interactive work and during the frequent upgrades (which
you should frequently apply).
>
> "stable" is so stable, that it already when published is not being
perfectly up to date anymore with the newest software versions available.
But for sure the provided software releases are so long time tested that no
mayor bugs are expected to hit you under usual circumstances.
> Where you cannot risk the work load to maybe having to react on
complaining users, or your running system simply does not need much
modernization because it is doing its job and then better don't touch it
unless a security update would need to be applied, then "stable" is
excellent.
>
> If a user is willing to step by step face the changes of a system
following current software releases, then "testing" is offering this to
you. The all over experience of the users with "testing is, that it rarely
breaks. Actually I never experienced this. It simply runs. It is not long
time tested as "stable" because everything is always in the "testing"
period for the next "stable", but "testing" does not mean "unstable". The
comfort of having modern software releases available instead of feeling
parked for years on unchanged apps is often worth the risk to maybe run
into a bug found in a new release. In my experiences, these bugs then are
usually not mission critical and users can most often afford to wait that
the bug gets solved by a soon delivered next release of the software, which
you can expect to soon also arrive in the "testing" distribution of Debian.
>
> So, Debian "stable" is for mission critical apps and services, therefore
not offering short time only tested, newest software. Debian "testing"
brings the comfort of much more up-to-date software to the screen and is
commonly stable enough for the continuous, interactive desktop usage.
>
>
>
> > Apparently, only the newer versions of KDE Plasma have the performance
> > boost.
>
> I cannot confirm this. KDE Plasma is high performant and low on memory
usage for years already. This was different in the far past. Consider that
the internet does not forget and still shows you complains from the past
although they might not apply to the current situation anymore. Also,
enthusiast of other graphical desktop environments sometimes still publish
such obsolete information, maybe because they years ago became full
satisfied with their desktop of choice and since then did not notice the
changes around anymore and are now no more well informed?
> Having had the urgent need for a more modern but also low footprint
desktop to subtitute Window Maker, I years ago did not consider KDE as my
candidate, because of information from highly ranked links in the web
search engines. I ended up testing Xfce, Openbox and LXDE. And I tested
LXQt, which was still in experimental state that time - and found that the
window manager in use by LXQt could be exchanged for various available
candidates. Noticing that kwin performed excellent in LXQt I wondered why
KDE was reported to be sluggish and heavy on resources, if its component
kwin was performing so excellently in LXQt. I gave KDE Plasma a try and
found to have been blinded by obsolete reports still popping up high ranked
in the web search engines. KDE Plasma was that time already a very nice
choice for old machines, and nowadays it continuous to do so. KDE Plasma
resource requirements compete very well with other "small footprint"
desktop environments. In the end you might ask why I then decided for KDE
over LXQt with kwin. Well it is because I much like the administration of
keyboard shortcuts in KDE Plasma, and I much like Kate and Konsole, and
also Dolphin and Krunner are very competitive, and baloo is quite helpful
once the initial indexing is achieved. All this comes with KDE Plasma kind
of out of the box - and perfectly competitive where only small hardware
resources are available.
>
> Best wishes, Marco.
>

Very impressive that you can even compare KDE Plasma to LXQt.

I don't think there is a Debian DVD iso I can use to install Debian
Bullseye.
I think I'll have to install Buster and then switch to Bullseye.
Is there a better option?

Thank you and thanks everyone for all your help.

Re: Plasma can be a lightweight (was: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10; and was also: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?)

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

On 10/03/2021 07:23, "Felix Miata"  wrote:
>
> Felix Miata composed on 2021-03-10 05:33 (UTC-0500):
>
> > Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z composed on 2021-03-09 19:00 (UTC-0400):
>
> >> I have been reading throughout the Web
> >> that Xfce4 is not so lightweight as it was before.
> >> Apparently, its performance is comparable to that of KDE
> >> or GNOME.
>
> > This may be where that came from:
> > <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrvJOXypAbk>
>
> > Here's a simple look at RAM before and after first launching IceWM, then
> > rebooting, then a freshly installed Plasma session on an old single
core PC that
> > had had only KDE3 and IceWM on TW.
>
> > # inxi -CGIMy
> > Machine:
> >   Type: Desktop System: Dell product: OptiPlex GX280 v: N/A serial:
20HRT71
> >   Mobo: Dell model: N/A serial: .. . BIOS: Dell v: A07 date: 11/29/2005
> > CPU:
> >   Info: Single Core model: Intel Pentium 4 bits: 32 type: MCP L2 cache:
1024 KiB
> >   Speed: 2793 MHz min/max: N/A Core speed (MHz): 1: 2793
> > Graphics:
> >   Device-1: Intel 82915G/GV/910GL Integrated Graphics driver: i915 v:
kernel
> >   Display: x11 server: X.Org 1.20.10 driver: loaded: intel
> >   unloaded: fbdev,modesetting,vesa resolution: 1680x1050~60Hz
> >   OpenGL: renderer: Mesa DRI Intel 915G x86/MMX/SSE2 v: 1.4 Mesa 20.3.4
> > Info:...Shell: Bash inxi: 3.3.01
>
> > # free# before launching startx into IceWM
> >totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
 available
> > Mem: 1525408   51264 13135801552  160564
 1293900
> > Swap:1036156   0 1036156
> > # free# after launching startx into IceWM and Xterm
> >totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
 available
> > Mem: 1525408   71732 1213716   14980  239960
 1259048
> > Swap:1036156   0 1036156
> >  20468 used by IceWM
> > # inxi -Sy
> > System:
> >   Host: gx28b Kernel: 5.7.11-1-default i686 bits: 32
> >   Desktop: IceWM 2.1.1 Distro: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20210307
> >
> > I rebooted before launching Plasma and Konsole on the same PC:
> > # free# before launching startx into virgin Plasma
installation
> >totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
 available
> > Mem: 1525568   51536 13056328444  168400
 1286812
> > Swap:1036156   0 1036156
> > # free# after launching startx into virgin Plasma
installation
> >totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
 available
> > Mem: 1525568  188264  899976   51360  437328
 1103940
> > Swap:1036156   0 1036156
> > 136728
> > # inxi -Sy
> > System:
> >   Host: gx28b Kernel: 5.7.11-1-default i686 bits: 32
> >   Desktop: KDE Plasma 5.21.1 Distro: openSUSE Tumbleweed 20210307
>
> > No, it's not Debian. I never put Plasma on my Debians, which all use
TDE. This was
> > a freshly updated Tumbleweed, so the Plasma version is fresh. There's
no XFCE on
> > it. It won't be added either, as there's nothing about it I like better
than KDE3,
> > TDE or Plasma, and the disk has no room for more additions, worthwhile
or
> > otherwise. Thus, the difference between XFCE and Plasma or IceWM will
need a
> > different PC.
>
> > The point is, Plasma can be rather lean, using only 116260 more than
IceWM to get
> > a basic session started.
>
> The following isn't directly comparable to the above, as the Plasma
installation
> and user are anything but fresh. However, it is a minimal, and started up
in same
> manner, just on 64 bits instead of 32, and the same Plasma version on the
same OS
> release, with 270996 instead of 136728 used to start a session:
>
> # fresh boot to multi-user before startx into Plasma & Konsole
>totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
 available
> Mem: 3934880   92840 36121649912  229876
 3601836
> Swap:4200428   0 4200428
> # after startx into Plasma & Konsole
>totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
 available
> Mem: 3934880  363836 3040312   75688  530732
 3250656
> Swap:4200428   0 4200428
>   270996 used by Plasma & Konsole
> # inxi -CGIMSy
> System:
>   Host: gx745 Kernel: 5.10.16-1-default x86_64 bits: 64

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

>   only that i wish people would stop posting HTML.

Sorry, I don't know if I'm posting on HTML, gmail does everything
automatically
and doesn't let me set the messages to be sent as plain text.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Of course, you can manually download Firefox from the official Website
and use it on a older system. It will probably work for a few years until
Firefox needs a lib which the old Version does not have.
>
> But using the version of Firefox from Debian is much more comfortable, as
it simply just works :)
>
> Cant you just upgrade the RAM? My Intel Atom N550 netbook supports 2GB -
unfortunately the maximum by this processor. As others already said,
> the main problem is the Browser itself. I discovered my Firefox needs
1,4GB for just an empty page (and some plugins like Adblock and NoScript)
after startup. So with the rest of the system needing <= 512MB, 2GB still
works as minimum requirement.
>

I don't think I could upgrade any hardware for now.
As you posted, it looks like Firefox is eating too much.
It is weird that Firefox does that for a blank webpage.
On my PC with 4 GB of RAM, Firefox only eats 250 MB for a new tab,
or at least its what the Task Manager says.
Maybe the problem is with the plugins or something else.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> You're not only allowed to think that, you're allowed to get
> people together and do it.
>
> All the code in Debian proper has free licenses, and you're
> welcome to create a Debian derivation that conforms to your idea
> of what is proper.
>
> It's going to be a lot of work, though. You should probably
> start with investigating the FHS and debootstrap to figure out what you want.
>
> -dsr-

Thanks for your encouragement.  I hope someday it becomes real,
and only with the installation of one meta-package.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> It is more than looks.  In Unix filesystems disks/volumes/partitions are
> "mounted" into the main file system at some arbitrary "mount point" and
> thus the filesystem encompasses all mounted devices.  With DOS, all
> lettered disks are independent, though resources can be referenced
> across disks, it's not seamless.  Also, what happens when you get to
> disk Z?

Yes I saw that too.  But I prefer not to further continue this debate to
/dev or /mount.
I like to know at hand what file is on which disk.  Aside from that,
if I made Windows, I would make it go to AA after Z, looks like a little
solution.  Even though, it would not be bad to call them USB0: or HDD0:,
just a bit more complex.

> Why should we use filesystem specifications that are constrained by the
> limitations of CP/M running on 8 bit processors?

I never tried to say that we should use FAT or NTFS.  I was just talking
about names.

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> To my knowledge, there is a Bulleye installer available here:
> https://www.debian.org/devel/debian-installer/
> It is still a test version, but you have good chances that it will work
> just fine. As described before, "testing" in Debian does not mean
> "unstable". With some bad luck for you, you might find a bug in it. If
> you could then report it, then luck for the Debian community because
> someone found it and it can be corrected for pushing the installer a
> step forward to soon become "stable".
>
> Well, not the best answer for being on the Debian mailing list, but if
> you are entirely new to Debian or even Linux then it could be a good
> option to start with the distribution Sparky Linux (there is a KDE
> Edition available) for getting up and running and obtaining insides into
> many available options and learning about the usage of the apt package
> manager and other tools. Sparky Linux is not Debian, because it has some
> fine extras for making it much easier accessible to new Linux users. But
> there is so much Debian under the hood, which is configured so close to
> the original Debian, that I recommend it for entirely new Linux users.
> It is the Debian derivative being closest to Debian of all Debian
> derivatives I would know of. It comes with easy options to install
> almost any desktop environment around. Use it for testing and getting up
> and running, and you are of course free to return to Debian after you
> already have a clear idea of what is good for you and your hardware.
> In the sense of the Debian community I advice that in Sparky Linux
> offered software is not all following the Debian software license policy
> concerning GNU/Linux and Open Source, because it also provides out of
> the box access to third party software installations which wouldn't have
> place in Debian.
>
> Good Luck!
> Marco.

Thanks.  I think I would rather prefer non-free software as a second option.

Since I'm new to this, I would prefer to go the safe way: first Debian
10, then testing.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

>   if you want to see an example of what it takes to
> make changes to this sort of layout google "Debian
> merged /usr" and read those threads.  :)

I just read this:
https://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge/
It seems as a good idea that merge of /usr.
I was wondering what would happen if some program used filesystem paths
as its input data for some processing task.  He he, yes, changing status quo
is not easy

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Be aware that although testing has less churn than unstable, that also
means that when a bug does creep through, it may take a week or two to see
the next release of the software, whereas unstable might see the fix come
in later that same day.
>
> It's a trade-off.

Sorry, I wasn't clear: first Buster then Bullseye. That way I will stay on
Bullseye
when it becomes "stable". I think it will happen soon, won't it?

Anyway, thanks for your remark.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Joe wrote:
> > There was a time when 'software' and 'applications' were two different
> > and distinct things, when applications were user programs and software
> > was the set of programs that made the computer work, today called system
> > software. A computer as delivered contained both hardware and software,
> > and it was up to the owner to write the applications. OK, that's going
> > back a bit...
>
>
> Once upon a time there were programmers. Frequently they had to
> build the hardware that they programmed -- indeed, it was a bit
> of a luxury to only be a programmer, and not also have
> responsibility for hardware maintenance (or design).
>
> Then there were systems programmers and application programmers.
> Systems programmers wrote operating systems and utilities for
> them. Applications programmers wrote applications. There was a lot of
crossover.
>
> Then there were operators, systems programmers and application
> programmers. Operator was a junior position that did physical
> things (mount tapes, plug in cables) and ran commands to do
> things on the systems. They usually moved up to being --
>
> Systems administrators, who did some programming in service to
> the systems, but not too much. The more senior a sysadmin was,
> the more time they spent programming and the less time they
> spent doing physical things, unless they wanted to do that.
>
> Sysadmins started to specialize. People who configured switches
> and routers and talked to telephone companies became
> "network engineers". People who spent time working on
> firewalls and security policies and thinking about that became
> "security engineers". Junior people who read scripts to
> end users became the helpdesk. And so forth.
>
> Then we noticed that a bunch of people were doing things
> manually when they should be automated. This was especially bad
> in places where there were no senior sysadmins or systems
> programmers. But we did have the internet, and senior sysadmins
> got together and started writing tools to make their lives
> easier: infrastructure automation. Current tools for that
> include chef, puppet, ansible, salt...
>
> (all of this is largely quoting myself circa April 2016)
>
> -dsr-

Wow, it is very impressive how things evolve.

Since this thread is about this filesystem hierarchy debate,
I would like to add this post I just read:
http://lists.busybox.net/pipermail/busybox/2010-December/074114.html
Looks like Wikipedia is right: many years ago, /usr meant "user", and there
was no /home

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> You are sending both HTML and plain text, so those of us who dislike
> the HTML can simply read the plain text.

Sorry, I hope it doesn't cause too much problems.
I don't know how to change that behaviour.

Re: Plasma can be a lightweight

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z composed on 2021-03-10 14:59 (UTC-0400):
>
> > I'm new to mailing lists.  I didn't now you could link threads (it is
> > threads, right?).
>
> I really have no idea what this question is about.

I mean, change the subject of the message for a specific conversation.
But the email program recognizes the different subjects as different
conversations.

> > Even more that the results published at Forbes.
>
> ???

Sorry, it was a link from the other conversation:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2019/10/23/bold-prediction-kde-will-steal-the-lightweight-linux-desktop-crown-in-2020/?sh=763cb23826d2

> > Could it run then with an Intel Atom N455 and just 1 GB of RAM?
> > Maybe I'm exaggerating, but I'm curious.  I could try it later.
>
> Plasma, yes. Plasma with Firefox or Chromium, not for long or with lots of 
> tabs
> kept open, or Firefox and LibreOffice and Gimp at the same time, unless you 
> are a
> patient person.

Looks like this little mini laptop would need something like LXQt for
doing some work.
Even though, Plasma looks so lightweight that I could even give it a
try, I'm also patient.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> PS: And of course, if you want something better you may want to
> challenge some of the assumptions as well, such as the fact that it
> needs to be a hierarchy.

Thanks, I did not realized that possibility.  There are tags too made to
identify files
or directories in a non-hierarchical manner.
For the filesystem, though, I think that a hierarchy is very organized, and
if well designed,
you should be able to find there whatever you want without knowing where it
is,
just starting at the root directory.

I think too that it could be better than both Debian and Windows are today.
In Windows, if you look under C:\Windows\System32\ it becomes scary.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> > I like to know at hand what file is on which disk.
>
> That used to work for A: vs C: back in the days of floppys, but what
> part of "E:" tells you which disk it is?  At best you get to assume that
> E: and D: are different disks, but the names don't tell you which is
which.
>
> > Even though, it would not be bad to call them USB0: or HDD0:,
> > just a bit more complex.
>
> That's better, indeed.  But the "0" still makes it unclear (which disk
> is 0 and which is 1?).  To make it more clear, I think it's important to
> give (as much as possible) human-chosen names to the disks (for that
> reason I use LVM to partition my disks, where I can label my disks and
> partitions, although those labels aren't always reflected in the mount
> points, so they're not always visible in the actual names of the files
> that reside in them).

That would depend whether you would prefer sequentially
labeled devices or named devices.  The better approach would be to use both,
so the computer could give a name to a recently plugged device
without asking you for one or even before you can try to give it one.

Perhaps this conversation is getting off topic since this is a mailing list
for user-related things. :)

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Here's one source of breakage I encountered a few times because of this
> /usr merge (which I generally welcome, BTW):
>
> dpkg -S =foo
>
> this (using the Zsh shell) should give me the name of the Debian package
> which provides the command `foo`.  It works well for most commands, but
> it fails for `ifconfig` because `ifconfig` was actually installed in
> /sbin/ifconfig (but the /usr merge makes this same /sbin directory
> available under the name /usr/sbin so Zsh thinks that `ifconfig` comes
> from `/usr/sbin/ifconfig` whereas `dpkg` doesn't have any record of
> installing a `/usr/sbin/ifconfig` file).

Yes, before every possible bug derived from that change is corrected,
you could use some sort path translation program
that takes paths from the caller program and translates it
to some path the called program can understand.
Just thinking.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> The Unix-Haters Handbook has the following theory:
>
> ,
> | Those of us who used early 70s I/O devices suspect the degeneracy stems
> | from the speed, reliability, and, most importantly, the keyboard of the
> | ASR-33 Teletype, the common input/output device in those days. Unlike
> | today’s keyboards, where the distance keys travel is based on feedback
> | principles, and the only force necessary is that needed to close a
> | microswitch, keys on the Teletype (at least in memory) needed to travel
> | over half an inch, and take the force necessary to run a small electric
gener-
> | ator such as those found on bicycles. You could break your knuckles
touch
> | typing on those beasts.
> |
> | If Dennis and Ken had a Selectric instead of a Teletype, we’d probably
be
> | typing “copy” and “remove” instead of “cp” and “rm.” Proof again that
> | technology limits our choices as often as it expands them.

Who knows what really caused that "inconvenience",
but I think it is not there anymore to stop us bring a solution.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> If I recall correctly, that is done as follows:
>
> Open a Gmail compose window
> -> click the "more" (3 vertical dots) icon in the bottom toolbar
> -> click on "plain text mode" until a tick-mark appears beside it.
>
> I believe that setting then applies to all future messages, until turned
off.

Yes, thanks, it works for the desktop, but not for the phone.
If you see that these messages are written with
short lines is because I'm using a phone.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Written by The Wanderer
> Well, if all you want is to be able to have more "newbie-friendly"
> descriptive names of the directories, it might be possible to achieve
> something like that by the simple addition of a collection of symlinks;
> just symlink e.g. "/Configuration" to '/etc', '/Programs' to '/bin',
> "/System Programs" to '/sbin', '/User Files' to '/home', et cetera.
>
> That wouldn't get rid of the existing names, but it would be simple to
> implement as a single nearly-empty package.
>
> I imagine one could also set up a custom configuration of some file
> browser such that it would hide displaying the "real" names, and then
> ship a sort of micro-distro (installer task, maybe?) which installs the
> symlinking package and that file browser as part of its standard UI
> setup. It wouldn't be perfect, but it might meet the described want.

I was thinking about that, but something could go wrong with that:

Written by me.
> >> I was wondering what would happen if some program used filesystem paths
> >> as its input data for some processing task.  He he, yes, changing
status quo
> >> is not easy

Written by Stefan Monnier
> > Here's one source of breakage I encountered a few times because of this
> > /usr merge (which I generally welcome, BTW):
> >
> > dpkg -S =foo
> >
> > this (using the Zsh shell) should give me the name of the Debian package
> > which provides the command `foo`.  It works well for most commands, but
> > it fails for `ifconfig` because `ifconfig` was actually installed in
> > /sbin/ifconfig (but the /usr merge makes this same /sbin directory
> > available under the name /usr/sbin so Zsh thinks that `ifconfig` comes
> > from `/usr/sbin/ifconfig` whereas `dpkg` doesn't have any record of
> > installing a `/usr/sbin/ifconfig` file).

Written by me
> Yes, before every possible bug derived from that change is corrected,
> you could use some sort path translation program
> that takes paths from the caller program and translates it
> to some path the called program can understand.
> Just thinking.

It could happen again.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> As such, the greater concerns with a programming language are making it
> easy to express your algorithm, and easy to understand existing code.
> Conciseness gives a much smaller benefit, and is not prized nearly as
> highly, except among bored kids.

Yes, every approach has its pros and cons: its readability vs conciseness.
If I wanted to write a common path the short way, I would rather use a
variable.

Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> While it looks like doing that works ok in Gmail, don't do that
> because it is a lazy user-interface-design decision by Gmail that
> is unpopular here because it actually causes problems for everyone else.
>
> Gmail "conversations" are a thing that exists only in Gmail. They
> are a broken simplification of threads that only compare the Subject
> text and apparently ignore the actual threading of the message.
>
> On Debian mailing lists, always use the Gmail compose window to
> begin a new *thread*, and use Gmail "reply-to-all" to existing messages,
> and also *remove* all individual recipients except the list unless they
> have earlier written that they are not subscribed to the list, because
that is
> Debian mailing-list policy.
>
> If you merely change the subject line in Gmail when replying, that does
> *not* create a new thread, because even though it appears that way in
Gmail it
> does not appear that way to users of other email software. Sometimes,
> doing that is a good idea when you want to indicate that the thread topic
has
> diverged without actually starting a new thread, but you should understand
> that it does not create a new thread for most other people seeing your
message.
> In this message for example, the prior Subject has nothing to do with what
> I am writing now, so it is appropriate for me to edit the subject,
> and I have done that.
>
> To see how messages are actually threaded on this list (which Gmail
> does not bother to show you) you can look here:
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/threads.html
> You should be able to find this message there, and see how it is actually
> still part of the prior thread. Even though it has a different subject and
> to you in Gmail it looks like a different "conversation", to everyone else
> it does not look like that.

Ok, thank you, I saw on the archive that this message is on the same thread,
although Gmail displays it different

I have a question, why should I use "reply to all" instead of "reply",
aside that "reply to all" puts the mailing list on copy.
Since I should not send the emails directly to someone,
I still have to delete the "To:" entry, then I just add the mailing list.

Also, I saw that "reply to all" quotes the whole thread.
I would not like to bloat the messages with such big quotes.

Re: Could KDE work adequately on a PC with 4 GB of RAM and an Intel Core 2 Duo processor @ 2.33 GHz?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> 
> TDE is the only DE I use on my Debians. Light it is, but with a feature
set that
> floats my boat very well.
> I had only 2GB RAM on this old Core2Duo until recently:
>
> # free  # on fresh boot to multi-user.target
>   totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
 available
> Mem:4040856  126748 37710602936  143048
 3722780
> Swap:   1903664   0 1903664
> # free  # after startx into TDE and Konsole
>   totalusedfree  shared  buff/cache
 available
> Mem:4040856  264720 35009243080  275212
 3552548
> Swap:   1903664   0 1903664
>  137972 used to get TDE session with Konsole
started
> # inxi -CGISy
> System:
>   Host: p5bse Kernel: 4.19.0-13-amd64 x86_64 bits: 64
>   Desktop: Trinity R14.0.10 Distro: Debian GNU/Linux 10 (buster)
> CPU:
>   Info: Dual Core model: Intel Core2 Duo E7500 bits: 64 type: MCP
>   L2 cache: 3 MiB
>   Speed: 1600 MHz min/max: 1596/2926 MHz Core speeds (MHz): 1: 1600 2:
1600
> Graphics:
>   Device-1: NVIDIA GF119 [NVS 310] driver: nouveau v: kernel
>   Display: server: X.Org 1.20.4 driver: loaded: modesetting
>   unloaded: fbdev,vesa resolution: 1920x1200~60Hz
>   OpenGL: renderer: NVD9 v: 4.3 Mesa 18.3.6

Thanks, I think I could try it on my mini laptop with 1 GB of RAM and an
Intel Atom N455 @ 1.66 GHz.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Please note our code of conduct [1] includes:
> "Please don't send your messages in HTML; use plain text instead."
> Note 'instead', not 'in addition to'.
>
> [1] https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct

Yes, I read your code of conduct, I just thought
that unformatted text messages would be sent as
plain text.

I'm sorry, I'm trying now to use the old Gmail
webpage as desktop instead of the Android
application to see if it fixes the problem.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> In one of the Apple frameworks they have a class called
> "INGetAvailableRestaurantReservationBookingDefaultsIntentResponse"

Well, I have to say that it is too much even for modern PCs.
There should be a limit.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> I don't see why that would come up in this case.
>
> In the model I described, the original paths which you found confusing
> are all still there, and anything which wants to find things under them
> can continue to use them.
>
> All this model does is give those paths an additional name each, and
> maybe go out of its way to hide the original names from you. Just
> because there are new names, and you can't see the old ones when you use
> one specific way of looking, doesn't mean that they aren't there or that
> other things can't see them.

Oh, now I understand what you mean, instead of doing it
like the merge of /usr, you would make the new paths
and not the old ones to be symbolic links.  Yes, it should not
break anything.  Thanks.

I have one question, does it work without breaking anything
if I mark the old directories with a hidden atribute instead of
some file manager specific configuration?

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Thank you. That works. That's what I do, as another
> Gmail user who attempts to do the right thing here :)
> It does not affect us Gmail users, but it does annoy
> many other people here.

Ok, I just hope that the HTML version of Gmail defaults to
plain text, I'm not using the normal interface with the
"plain text mode" because I'm still using the phone but as desktop.

Re: Hardware requirements between Debian 9 and 10

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Your message to which I am replying contains no HTML.
>
> Likewise the previous one, which is why I wrote "Thank you. That works."

Ok.  Thank you too.  Have a good day.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> Hint: you are already doing that, Gmail just hides the quotes for you.

I do not always let the whole quote there,
as in this message, for example.  I did it
at the start of the thread only to give some context.

Thanks for the hint, though.  Gmail does hide
the quotes, no matter how long they are.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

> If that type of mark is possible in your environment, then no, this
> shouldn't break anything.
>
> However, as far as I'm aware, there is no non-file-manager-specific
> "hidden" attribute for an *nix filesystem. The traditional way to make
> most *nix programs treat a file as hidden is to rename the file so that
> it starts with a '.' character - and renaming any of these directories
> would, of course, bring back in the "existing programs can't find what
> they expect" problem.
>
> The need to introduce, or take advantage of, a file-manager-specific
> "hidden" attribute is exactly the reason why I think a specialized file
> manager for the purpose would probably be needed.

Oh, I see, that makes sense.  Thanks for your help.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Brian () wrote:
> Please would you not remove the attribution when you quote a mail?

Sure.  Like this?  Or should I leave the date and hour too?

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

On Thu, Mar 11 2021 at 10:40,  wrote:
> I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If I want to
> find the original email which might have more context, that is very helpful.

I could try but it is more problematic for quick answers since I have
the interface in Spanish, unless you don't mind reading:
"El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 10:40,  escribió:"

> Aside: You (Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z) obviously know how (in the gmail browser
> client) to display the previous text which will be quoted, but for people that
> may not know:
>
> When you click reply in that gmail browser client, you don't see the previous
> text, but, near the bottom of the textbox (on the right side), there are three
> dots (bigger than a period) in an ellipse.  If you click on those, the
> previous text is displayed, and you can delete text or intermix your comments
> as desired.

Thanks for pointing it out.  It will surely be helpful.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

11 mar 2021 10:40,  wrote:[1]
> I would suggest that you leave the date and hour, also, please.  If I want to
> find the original email which might have more context, that is very helpful.

Let me see.  Does this [1] work for you?

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 13:31, The Wanderer () escribió:
> For myself, that wouldn't bother me at all. I've seen attribution lines
> in less-recognizable languages, and since all the key information is
> still there and can be parsed with reasonably minimal effort, it serves
> the purpose just fine.
>
> I'd certainly prefer attribution lines like that than a complete lack of
> attribution, or ones with less information, in any case.

 El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 13:43, Tixy () escribió:
> I would suggest that the automatically inserted Spanish version is fine
> and shouldn't be edited. There comes a point where the inconvenience to
> the person sending the message outweighs the trivial benefits to the
> person receiving it.

Thanks.

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 14:30,  escribió:
> I can live with that ;-)

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 14:30,  escribió:
> Yes that works for me, but I can live with the Spanish, as well.

Thanks

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 14:32 (GMT-4), David Wright
() escribió:[1]
> One small point: timezones are a great help in making the time relevant.
> I agree on language, no bother. Hey, we've even had one person using the
> French Revolutionary Calendar.

Are you talking about this [1].  I wish that Gmail had an option for
this too, but I don't know
if there is one, then I had to write it manually.  While at the PC it
isn't so difficult,
it becomes a problem when you write from a phone.

Does it work if I rather put this signature at the end of every message?

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4
Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 14:51, David Wright
() escribió:
> Take the case where partition E: contains the users' home
> directories for users foo and bar. Foo's video collection
> in E:/foo/Videos/ eventually grows so large that it has to
> be hived off onto a separate device, F: is assigned to it,
> and all of Foo's videos are moved there.
>
> Now, a file that Bar knew as E:/foo/Videos/cats.mp4, or
> even ../foo/Videos/cats.mp4, has the new path F:/cats.mp4.
>
> Here's how that works differently on unix filesystems:
>
> Old scheme:
>
> # mount /dev/sdc1 /home
>
> ~foo/Videos/cats.mp4 (or ../foo/Videos/cats.mp4).
>
> New scheme:
>
> # mount /dev/sdc1 /home
>
> on which /home/foo/Videos/ has been copied to device /dev/sdd1,
> and emptied.
>
> # mount /dev/sdd1 /home/foo/Videos
>
> Now the videos copied to /dev/sdd1 all appear in the same
> location as they did before, and all the file paths stay
> the same.

Thanks for your proposition, I didn't understand the usefulness of a
unified hierarchy
until you put that example.

Well, you still have to mount it, don't you?  We don't have to delete
the mount "feature"
nor the unified hierarchy, instead we could use both approaches.
Think of E: and F:
as sdc1 and sdd1, with direct access to those E: and F:. (Now that I'm
writing this,
I think we could use E1: and F1:, I find it useful too).  Then you
could write something like:

mount E1: /home
mount F1: /home/foo/Videos

The boot device could always be An: (with "n" being some number), so
the system could automatically do: "mount An: /" at boot.  If you
would prefer some
operating system interoperability, we could use Cn: instead of An:

At the end, you have the safe option to write /something/something_else
on the command line, or F1:/something/something_else at a GUI.

Please read the following.

El mié, 10 mar 2021 a las 18:25, Stefan Monnier
() escribió:
> > (...) To make it more clear, I think it's important to
> > give (as much as possible) human-chosen names to the disks (for that
> > reason I use LVM to partition my disks, where I can label my disks and
> > partitions, although those labels aren't always reflected in the mount
> > points, so they're not always visible in the actual names of the files
> > that reside in them).

El mié, 10 mar 2021 a las 19:28, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
() escribió:
> That would depend whether you would prefer sequentially
> labeled devices or named devices.  The better approach would be to use both 
> (...)

We can store names into devices' filesystems.  This way, we could use
e.g. :Foo:/foo/Videos/cats.mp4.  The system will assign it F1:, but then
it could read into the device's filesystem that it is called Foo, so the system
makes it available as :Foo:  If you plug the device into another PC,
it will still
be automatically called :Foo:

We could even use USBa1: or HDDb2:, although it looks a bit more complex,
it adds more information about the device as (I think, I don't
remember well) sda
or sdb do.

As you can see, we don't have to use some fixed existing approach,
everything could be possible, it's a matter of thinking about possibilities,
and pros and cons.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4
Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec

Re: Using Gmail on Debian mailing lists

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 15:12,  escribió:
> Yes, especially the Time zone.  The months I can probably figure out.

El jue, 11 mar 2021 a las 15:24, David Wright
() escribió:
> No need for the months. People rarely post replies to such old messages.
> As for inserting it manually, the disadvantage is that it's misleading
> when it's wrong. For example, we change clocks in under a week, and it
> would be easy to forget this instance of a "clock".

Ok thanks.

The month could be useful for archival purposes.  If someone would
like to search
for something even on old threads, then he could find the posts more easy.
But if you really think it is not needed, then I could remove it to not bloat my
posts with that odd signature.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4
Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec

How to manually install WiFi firmware on Debian Live?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hello.

I tried to make a "Realtek RTL8191SU Wireless LAN 802.11n USB 2.0
Network Adapter" work on Debian 10 Live with LXDE, but I couldn't.
Here is what I already have tried:

1-. Downloaded package firmware-realtek from package.debian.org.
2-. Booted Debian Live.
3-. Copied package from hard disk to the desktop (apt complains when
I load it directly).
4-. Executed: sudo apt install firmware-realtek
5-. Executed: sudo depmod -a
6-. Executed: sudo modprobe r8712u

Then, Wicd didn't show anything.  I ran udevadm, I don't remember how,
to see if the USB WiFi adapter was detected; it was and also
the module r8712u was loaded for it.

I need some help here, please.  I don't want to use a non-free firmware
live image.  Thanks.

Re: How to manually install WiFi firmware on Debian Live?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Here are some corrections, I did not really run these commands that way.

2021-03-11 20:38 GMT-04:00, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z :
> 4-. Executed: sudo apt install firmware-realtek

sudo apt install 

> 5-. Executed: sudo depmod -a

sudo /sbin/depmod -a

> 6-. Executed: sudo modprobe r8712u

sudo /sbin/modprobe r8712u

2021-03-11 20:55 GMT-04:00, IL Ka :
> Lets see if driver was able to run your card:
>
> Check output of
> $ lspci

bash: lspci: command not found :)
It was not under /bin nor /sbin

> $ iw dev

This didn't show anything

> $ ip link show

user@debian:/sbin$ ./ip link show
1: lo:  mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN
mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
2: enp0s25:  mtu 1500 qdisc
pfifo_fast state DOWN mode DEFAULT group default qlen 1000
link/ether 00:1e:4f:d6:1e:70 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff

> If everything is ok, check if your card can see any network
>
> $ iw dev [YOUR_CARD_DEVICE] scan

There are no devices so I didn't run this.

2021-03-12 5:16 GMT-04:00, Anssi Saari :
> lsusb is going to be more useful with a USB device.

bash: lsusb: command not found
:)

2021-03-11 23:14 GMT-04:00, Charles Curley :
> Erm, possibly because firmware-realtek doesn't support that particular
> adapter (??). It supports variants of the 8191, but I don't see the SU.
>
> I say, possibly, because Realtek firmware is screwy.

I don't know:
https://wiki.debian.org/rtl819x
https://wiki.debian.org/rtl819x#supported-r8712u

> There are also USB WiFi adapters that simply don't play with Linux.

I wish this is not the case.

Re: Is there an alternative filesystem hierarchy that could be adapted to Debian.

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

2021-03-12 0:05 GMT-04:00, David Wright :
> On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 16:02:55 (-0400), Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
>> Think of E: and F:
>> as sdc1 and sdd1, with direct access to those E: and F:.
>
> Take care how you express this. sdc1 and sdd1 *do* give you direct
> access to devices, but it's raw, and doesn't go through the filesystem
> access methods. Consequently it would be the easiest way to destroy
> your files, which is exactly how most users employ it: with dd, to
> write one filesystem over another, or to wipe it with /dev/zero or
> /dev/urandom.

Oh, thanks, I didn't know that.

> You'd have to sort out the delimiter ":", and the semantics of
> a filename F1:something/something_else. (I take it you're familiar
> with how the interpretation of F:a\b is distinguished from F:\a\b
> in Windows.)

I'm sorry, I don't know that difference.  I made some
experiments.  It looks like every letter has its own working directory,
and F:\a\b is just an absolute path but F:a\b is acomments, lative
to the working directory of F:
Is it right?

> Perhaps read this, by someone playing around with a filesystem from
> the simpler times in the last century.
>
> http://time.to.pullthepl.ug/post/2013/06/24/porting-an-ancient-filesystem-to-modern-linux/

Thanks, I will read it later.

Thanks for your comments and help, I find them very useful.

Have a good day.

Re: How to manually install WiFi firmware on Debian Live?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El vie, 12 mar 2021 a las 10:22, Brian () escribió:
>
> On Fri 12 Mar 2021 at 14:04:14 +, Brian wrote:
>
> > On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 20:38:04 -0400, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> >
> > > 4-. Executed: sudo apt install firmware-realtek
> >
> > I think that is incorrect. If you are in the same directory as
> > firmware-realtek, I'd do 'sudo apt install ./firmware-realtek'.
>
> Correction:
>
> sudo apt install ./firmware-realtek_20190114-2_all.deb

Yes, thanks for noting it.  This is what I wrote here:

El vie, 12 mar 2021 a las 9:00, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
() escribió:
> Here are some corrections, I did not really run these commands that way.
>
> 2021-03-11 20:38 GMT-04:00, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z :
> > 4-. Executed: sudo apt install firmware-realtek
>
> sudo apt install 

 is
/home/user/Desktop/firmware-realtek_20190114-2_all.deb

El vie, 12 mar 2021 a las 10:04, Brian () escribió:
>
> On Thu 11 Mar 2021 at 20:38:04 -0400, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > I tried to make a "Realtek RTL8191SU Wireless LAN 802.11n USB 2.0
> > Network Adapter" work on Debian 10 Live with LXDE, but I couldn't.
> > Here is what I already have tried:
> >
> > 1-. Downloaded package firmware-realtek from package.debian.org.
>
> Ok. May also be done with 'apt download firmware-realtek'.

That would work if I already had Debian with internet connection.
I can't use apt for anything because I don't have WiFi connection.

El vie, 12 mar 2021 a las 10:04, Brian () escribió:
> 'ip a' should show all available interfaces.

Ok, I'll try that.

Re: How to manually install WiFi firmware on Debian Live? [Partially Solved]

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El vie, 12 mar 2021 a las 14:04, Brian () escribió:
> 'ip a' should show all available interfaces.

user@debian:~$ ip a
1: lo:  mtu 65536 qdisc noqueue state UNKNOWN
group default qlen 1000
link/loopback 00:00:00:00:00:00 brd 00:00:00:00:00:00
inet 127.0.0.1/8 scope host lo
   valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
inet6 ::1/128 scope host
   valid_lft forever preferred_lft forever
2: enp0s25:  mtu 1500 qdisc
pfifo_fast state DOWN group default qlen 1000
link/ether 00:1e:4f:d6:1e:70 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff
4: wlx000d81af0249:  mtu 1500 qdisc noop state
DOWN group default qlen 1000
link/ether 00:0d:81:af:02:49 brd ff:ff:ff:ff:ff:ff

El vie, 12 mar 2021 a las 18:19, Anssi Saari () escribió:
> Alternatively you can just unplug and plug the adapter after installing
> the firmware.

Done.

> But if you did this and it still doesn't work I'm pretty much out of
> ideas. Does dmesg report anything relevant to network or realtek? (...)

[ 1093.225158] usb 1-3: USB disconnect, device number 6
[ 1095.258963] usb 1-3: new high-speed USB device number 7 using ehci-pci
[ 1095.417361] usb 1-3: New USB device found, idVendor=0bda,
idProduct=8172, bcdDevice= 2.00
[ 1095.417364] usb 1-3: New USB device strings: Mfr=1, Product=2, SerialNumber=3
[ 1095.417366] usb 1-3: Product: RTL8191S WLAN Adapter
[ 1095.417368] usb 1-3: Manufacturer: Manufacturer Realtek
[ 1095.417369] usb 1-3: SerialNumber: 00e04c01
[ 1095.418204] r8712u: register rtl8712_netdev_ops to netdev_ops
[ 1095.418208] usb 1-3: r8712u: USB_SPEED_HIGH with 4 endpoints
[ 1095.418609] usb 1-3: r8712u: Boot from EFUSE: Autoload OK
[ 1095.822861] usb 1-3: r8712u: CustomerID = 0x
[ 1095.822864] usb 1-3: r8712u: MAC Address from efuse = 00:0d:81:af:02:49
[ 1095.822866] usb 1-3: r8712u: Loading firmware from "rtlwifi/rtl8712u.bin"
[ 1095.826102] usb 1-3: firmware: direct-loading firmware rtlwifi/rtl8712u.bin
[ 1095.840824] r8712u 1-3:1.0 wlx000d81af0249: renamed from wlan0

Thank you two, and everyone else.  Now I can send this message from Debian.

I saw the network interface number 4 [1] after installing and running
the firmware only.
Then, dmesg showed that last line that told me the "wlan0" (i.e. the
wireless device)
was instead "wlx000d81af0249".

So, I opened Wicd one more time to see if something happened, I clicked on
preferences and saw that the wireless network interface field was empty.
I wondered what would happen if I wrote wlx000d81af0249 [1] there.
So I did it and boom!  It works!

I wonder why Wicd doesn't detect the wireless interface automatically.
Was it designed to be configured manually or is it a bug?

Anyway, is there some way to automate this?  I saw there was that command
"ip link set  up" but it doesn't make Wicd recognize the interface
automatically.

Re: [?] Why should Distros be called as i386 for a 32-bit PC, and as amd64 for a 64-bit PC, when Intel Core PCs are also 64bit systems

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

2021-03-14 7:19 GMT-04:00, The Wanderer :
> On 2021-03-14 at 06:49, Susmita/Rajib wrote:
>
>> While Intel PCs are also 64bit processors?
>
> Because of the history of the processor microarchitectures involved.
>
> The x86 processor line (32-bit and older) was, to the best of my
> knowledge, originally an Intel thing. Before i386 (where the 'i' may
> stand for Intel, I'm not sure), there was 286, and other things earlier
> than that; if my memory just offhand is accurate, the oldest one was
> probably called 8086. After i386, you have 486, 586, and 686; current
> Debian 32-bit packages are actually compiled against the 686 baseline,
> not 386 as such.
>
> Intel owns the patents for the 32-bit x86 CPU architecture, and licenses
> them to other companies for a price. AMD is one of those other
> companies; that's how AMD is allowed to create 32-bit x86 CPUs.
>
> When 64-bit came along, rather than extending the x86 line, Intel
> started from scratch and designed an entire new CPU architecture. That
> got called ia64, and it never caught on; it eventually failed in the
> marketplace, except possibly in very limited market segments.
> when Intel created a 64-bit architecture (called ia64), it turned out to
> be a developmental dead end and failed in the marketplace.
>
> At around the same time, AMD created a 64-bit CPU architecture which
> extended the x86 line, and was backwards compatible with existing
> software. That got called amd64, and is also sometimes called x86_64, or
> other names in addition. It caught on, and became so successful that
> Intel abandoned its ia64 approach and started making amd64 CPUs itself.
>
> AMD owns the patents for the 64-bit amd64 CPU architecture, and licenses
> them to other companies for a price. Intel is one of those other
> companies; that's how Intel is allowed to create 64-bit amd64 CPUs.
>
>
> Or, put briefly: because AMD created the underlying design for how that
> type of CPU works, even if Intel is the one making the specific CPU
> model in question.
>
> Does that make sense?

Perfect explanation.  Also very good all those additional
contributions from the others.

Re: Slow connections - DNS problems?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El mié, 24 mar 2021 a las 10:45, Andrei POPESCU
() escribió:
>
> On Mi, 24 mar 21, 10:34:54, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 09:24:28AM +, Darac Marjal wrote:
> > >
> > > On 24/03/2021 05:32, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > > > # Generated by NetworkManager
> > > > search telus
> > > > nameserver 192.168.0.1
> > > > nameserver 75.153.171.122
> > > > nameserver 2001:568:ff09:10a::56
> > > > # NOTE: the libc resolver may not support more than 3 nameservers.
> > > > # The nameservers listed below may not be recognized.
> > > > nameserver 2001:568:ff09:10b::122
> > > >
> > > > My home router (supplied by Telus, notice the "search" line)
> > >
> > > Just another point to add to what other people are saying. This line
> > > looks a bit suspicious to me. The "search" line is _supposed_ to be a
> > > list of domains which your computer is part of. It's implemented such
> > > that, when the resolver is asked to look up a short name (e.g. "printer"
> > > or "my-laptop" etc), then each item in the search list will be appended
> > > in turn and a lookup made. So, for example you could have "search
> > > example.com example.net" and a lookup for "gateway" would try
> > > "gateway.example.com" then "gateway.example.net" in turn.
> >
> > [...]
> >
> > Well spotted. The "search telus" looks completely bogus, too. Unless
> > you'have set up a local DNS with the "fake" TLD telus, but then, you'd
> > probably know ;-)
>
> This was likely set up by the Telus home router and provided via DHCP to
> all local systems.

Well, I'm not pretty sure about this subject but...  When I was setting up
an OpenWRT router I saw there was a thing called "local domain", it looks
like the router had a DNS that answered queries for that local top level domain,
which had the hostnames of the devices connected to the router as subdomains.
So, for example, if you had a device called "my-pc" and your local TLD
was "telus",
the writing "my-pc.telus" would send a DNS query to the router and
it will answer with the IP address of that device.
The router indeed used the DHCP to broadcast that local domain.

In order for that local domain to work, the router needed to have a DNS
server running and configured to answer such queries, the DHCP server had
to pass the device's hostnames to the DNS someway, and the router
had to be announced as a DNS server to the devices connected on LAN
by DHCP.  If you override the router DNS, the local domain will not work.

Perhaps the router's DNS server redirects non-local queries to upstream servers
and maybe those DNS servers broadcasted by the DHCP are a little slow;
together, that could introduce a little delay for DNS responses.  If you can,
you could try to make the router send a known fast DNS server as the first
DNS and then itself as the second DNS (if you want to keep the local domain).

As I said, I don't know too much about this, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: Creating my first LAN

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El mié, 24 mar 2021 a las 16:42, Brian () escribió:
>
> On Wed 24 Mar 2021 at 20:20:59 +, Joe wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 15:08:43 -0500
> > David Wright  wrote:
> >
> >
> > >
> > > A new N600 dual band router can be had for $30 at Walmart.
> > > I don't know how easy it is to initially configure it without
> > > an ethernet connection to one of the LAN ports, but that problem
> > > can be considered solved by the quotation above (from a couple
> > > of years back).
> >
> > For the record, many modern routers provide a URL to reach the admin
> > page, so as long as wifi and DHCP are enabled out of the box, and they
> > all do that, there's no need to mess about with IP addresses and
> > cabling at all.
>
> [...]
>
> I am pleased you are supporting the advice I gave. Setting up one
> computer is an AP with DHCP is interesting but not exactly a walk
> in the park.

I agree too.  Using a router would be a very easy way to set up
an ad-hoc network.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: WiFi Hardware not detected, during Debian NetInst Install

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hi.

I saw the bug report.  Mr. Charles Curley provided relevant information
about the installation process stored on log files.  Perhaps it would be good
to follow Mr. David Wright's advice, you could help with bug-fixing process
sending some installation log information to narrow what the developers
should be looking for.  As for the reproduction of the bug, I think one
would need a similar hardware configuration to reach the problem;
at least you need the WiFi device, so it would be good if you could provide
more details, if you have the time, of course.

Have a good day.

Re: WiFi Hardware not detected, during Debian NetInst Install

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

I agree with Mr. Charles Curley and Mr. David Wright.
Following those advices will help more the "debugging" process.

Re: WiFi Hardware not detected, during Debian NetInst Install

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

2021-03-25 15:01 GMT-04:00, Charles Curley :
> On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 22:52:31 -0500
> David Wright  wrote:
>
>> My newly oldest computer, an Acer TravelMate 3201XCi,
>> built in 2004, contains one of these. If it's of any use to Charles,
>> I can warn that this laptop has the annoying habit of booting up
>> with the wifi blocked. (It has a pair of insanely placed toggling
>> buttons/lights for wifi and bluetooth, and I've never figured out
>> what the wifi light correlates with.) I know nothing about the R51
>> and whether there are any firmware buttons or function keys that
>> would affect its wifi.
>
>  A good thought, thank you. A careful inspection of the computer and
>  search of the Hardware Maintenance Manual reveal no such physical
>  switch. There is a function key switch which relies on OS support to
>  actually do anything, and I doubt that is active in d-i.

I also have an Acer minilaptop.  It also has a WiFi on/off hotkey (Fn+F3).
The led that belongs to the WiFi state is the fourth.
The difference here is that it works from startup.  If the WiFi
is disabled through this hotkey, Windows has no way to reenable it,
though it knows that the WiFi is disabled this way.

Re: WiFi Hardware not detected, during Debian NetInst Install

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El jue, 25 mar 2021 a las 17:31, Kenneth Parker () escribió:
> On Thu, Mar 25, 2021, 12:09 PM David Wright  wrote:
>> But it appears that I might need to point out that it's very easy and
>> quick to re-collect a failing installation log at any time if the
>> "original" ones were lost/overwritten or whatever:
>>
>>  1. Boot with the appropriate installation medium.
>>
>>  2. Proceed with expert installation in the original manner,
>> as far as the "Detect Network Hardware", which of course fails.
>>
>>  3. After the failure, and back at the Main Menu, select
>> "Save debug logs".
>>
>>  4. Insert a USB stick, switch to VC2, mount the stick and create
>> a directory on it.
>>
>>  5. Back at VC1, complete the directory name at the prompt and
>> save the logs. (ls on VC2 if you want to check them.)
>>
>>  6. Select "Abort the installation". All that should have taken
>> about five or ten minutes so far.
>>
>>  7. Read/edit/post excerpts from the logs at leisure. (That's when
>> it helps to know what strings you're looking for.)
>
>
> Since the actual logs from the Install are small, I proceeded, up to # 6.  
> And then, tarred the resulting directory, and sent it to the Bug Report.
>
>> That's what's lacking from the bug report.
>
>
> Hopefully, this will help.

Thank you, Mr. Kenneth Parker.

I noticed in the "syslog" that modprobe couldn't find the module "rtw_8723de"
that was not listed on the "hardware-summary"; instead, lsmod shows
"rtw88_8723de".
Then, the module "r8169" tried to load the firmware but that module
belongs to the
GbE card.

I think I'll be sending this to the bug report.

Have a nice day.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hi.

I'm trying to install Debian 10.8 on a USB stick, and it is not Debian Live,
from a hard disk that has Windows 7 installed.  Since I don't have
any CD or DVD, and I need the USB stick to install Debian on it,
I can't use the USB stick to put the ISO image on it.

I have downloaded the first ISO DVD image, hd-media/vmlinuz and
hd-media/initrd.gz.  As I understand, the standalone win32-loader
downloads its own Debian image, so I supposed I needed the setup.exe
from the ISO image.  I put debian-10.8.0-i386-DVD-1.iso, g2ldr, g2ldr.mbr
(these two from the ISO), initrd.gz, setup.exe, vmlinuz and win32-loader.ini
on the root of C:

I modified win32-loader.ini from:
[installer]
kernel=linux
arch=i386
i386/linux=install.386/vmlinuz
i386/initrd=install.386/initrd.gz
i386/gtk/linux=install.386/vmlinuz
i386/gtk/initrd=install.386/gtk/initrd.gz

[grub]
g2ldr=g2ldr
g2ldr.mbr=g2ldr.mbr

to:
[installer]
kernel=linux
arch=i386
i386/linux=vmlinuz
i386/initrd=initrd.gz

[grub]
g2ldr=g2ldr
g2ldr.mbr=g2ldr.mbr

The problem is that I don't know if modifying win32-loader.ini that way
I can make debian-installer boot from the files on C: instead from a CD or
a DVD or an USB stick; nor I know if GRUB2 will load successfully itself
and linux and the RAM disk.

Please, could you help me?

Thanks in advance.

Re: Possible?! A Debian public repository for all complex code lines with examples and scripts?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Oh dear, so much opposition here, isn't it?

Please take your time and patience to read my whole message,
I put some titles so you can jump where you need to.

1. ANSWER TO SUSMITA/RAJIB

Dear Susmita/Rajib, thanks for sharing your opinion.
It is very ambitious what you are proposing.

1.1. Introduction.

Let's see:

El vie, 26 mar 2021 a las 9:57, Susmita/Rajib
() escribió:
>
> My illustrious Team Leaders and Movers of the Debian List,
>
> It has often been advised by experienced users of Debian for the
> learners to focus more on man pages.
>
> I shall seek a few examples before i place my questions.
>
> Let us for instance look at the man page of ls at:
> https://manpages.debian.org/buster/coreutils/ls.1.en.html

This one looks very good, although there are more descriptive
manual pages out there for other packages; but, remember it is
about "ls", a very basic command so what else would we expect?

> Then the following pages:
> https://medium.com/@isaac_70614/the-ls-command-and-wildcard-7fff5a4f7f24
> https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/learning-the-unix/1565923901/ch04s03.html
> https://www.tecmint.com/use-wildcards-to-match-filenames-in-linux/
> https://www.cyberciti.biz/faq/grep-regular-expressions/

I see what you mean, you are talking about book-like writings that
talk in a straightforward and enjoyable way about a very specific subject.
Well, how-to's have a little common with this, but what are you proposing is
very big.  It would not be like Wikipedia, it would be like WikiHow
(https://www.wikihow.com/Main-Page) mixed with a blog.

PS: Now that I think, the Debian Wiki [1] is a little like a Debian Wikipedia,
perhaps it may suffice what you're looking for.

> (...)
> Even the book that I have procured — The Linux Command Line, A
> Complete Introduction, by William Shotts  — has all codes spread (or
> sprewn) across many pages and has to be brought together by exhaustive
> note taking.

A book has to have its original sources. :)

1.2. Manual pages.

> It is clearly noticed that wide applications of tricks with wildcards,
> regex and redirections aren't simply available in the man pages.

Well, this is not completely true.  Please look here
https://manpages.debian.org/buster/bash/bash.1.en.html at
section DEFINITIONS and section EXPANSION subsection
Pathname Expansion.

These manual pages work with a little hierarchy, as I see,
so if you know how to use bash there is no need to specify
how to use ls with bash.  [I didn't know that pathname expansion
is performed by bash].

1.3. A very big documentation.

> So is it then not necessary to have a repository of codes, with all
> permutations & combinations of possibilities with wildcards/regular
> expressions, redirections and so on, along with a wide variety of
> examples, be made available? Have the complete code reference hosted
> by the Debian server itself?

Well, this is a little problematic: let's say we use three programs
on one complete command at a terminal, each one has 20 different options.
If we wrote every possible combination we would have
1152918206075109375 possibilities [2],
not taking into account that some options could be specified multiple times;
also, I didn't count the variable arguments (those that need to be defined
by the user, like a file name).

Instead, you could have a list of tutorials for the most common
questions or uses.
You could organize them so well, that you could find what you want easily.
Of course it would be a very hard work, but certainly it would be very
appreciated.

Aside that, a web search engine gives you closely the same results searching
through the open internet for any information you want.
Blogs and other websites are a good source of information; at least
they are there.
A unified repository for such information is a little better but
it will not give you a big improvement.  And as I said, such a
unified repository can not have all the information, but only the most
relevant one;
for everything else, you will need to search through the open internet again.

PS: again, the Debian Wiki is a good base to build upon such type of
documentation.

1.4. Unavailability of code and FOSS (or FLOSS).

> Is not this general unavailability of those more complex codes — then
> becomes a de-facto non-disclosure of complex code lines — against the
> very Policy of Free and Open Source systems?

Ok, ok... this is too much.  No, there is not any unavailability of
complex code lines, just ignorance.  Those complex lines must
be interpreted by the program, the program is free software with
"publicly viewable source"; so if you read the source,
you will understand everything.  The complex code lines are just
a way to tell the program to do many tasks at a time or to specify
more precisely what and how things must be done.

The only problem here, and not by Debian's failure, is that
not everyone is a programmer, or developer, or someone who
understands programming languages; also, more complex programs
are more diffic

Re: Possible?! A Debian public repository for all complex code lines with examples and scripts?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hi.

El sáb, 27 mar 2021 a las 23:18, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
() escribió:
> [many things]

Sorry, I forgot to finish writing my titles on my past post,
so if you need them, here are the lines where a different section
begin:

Line 344: 2.5. To Mr. Greg Wooledge.
Line 367: 2.6. To someone anonymous, forwarded by Susmita/Rajib.
Line 408: 2.7. To dear Susmita/Rajib.
PS to previous post: if you find my second last message as an offense,
I'm sorry, it was not my intention.

Additionally, in section 1.6, where it says [someone else], it is
Mr. David Wright.  I'm sorry, I forgot to replace that phrase.

Also, I noted in Debian's Code of Conduct, section 4, that it would be
good to include a summary for long posts. So here it is:

4. SUMMARY (for the whole thread, why not?)

4.1. Proposition.

Dear Susmita/Rajib is looking for a centralized source of tutorials
(or something alike) on Debian.  It is presented that tutorials are not included
in manual pages nor within some books.

4.1. Objections.

a) The proposed documentation would be very big (Cater, Ritter, Tomás,
Wooledge, me)(please read original message).
b) The requested information is already available on the Web (Cater, Grant,
Ritter, anonymous, me).
c) The manual pages and the source code have all the necessary information
and are definitive (Wright, two anonymous, me).
d) Debian has a lot of history and it is difficult to fix some inconveniences
(Shuklin, Wooledge).
e) FOSS is inherently decentralized and spreaded (Grant, maybe Wooledge).
f) The problem is ignorance (Ritter, Wright, maybe Cater, me).

4.2. Proposed solutions.

a) Some books are good for specific subjects (Cater, Tomás).
b) Modern search engines make the Web as a unified source of information
(Ritter, Cater, Susmita/Rajib, maybe Grant, me).
c) Learn one step at a time, get experience (Cater, Wright).
d) Learn the component parts and generalizations (Cater, Wright, me).
e) Get in contact with others that have the same learning objectives
(Wright).
f) Ask others for help with a subject (Cater, anonymous).
g) Look for a course (Cater, Wright).
h) The websites can be packaged and put into Debian (anonymous).
h) Build a very well organized compilation of common/relevant tutorials
or help build the Debian Wiki (me).

Please, if you want to enrich your knowledge, read the original sources...
They're marvelously good.

Have a good day.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4
Months: Ene = Jan ; Abr = Apr ; Ago = Aug ; Dic = Dec

Re: Possible?! A Debian public repository for all complex code lines with examples and scripts?

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El dom, 28 mar 2021 a las 9:48, Andrew M.A. Cater
() escribió:
> Have a look at the FAQ posted to this list once a month
> for some ideas on how this list works. If something solves the problem / you
> find a good answer that might help someone else, adding something like
> subject line - [SOLVED] to the end of the mailing list thread will help the
> next person find the answer more quickly.

Thanks for this.  I'll take that advice the next time when it concerns me.

El dom, 28 mar 2021 a las 1:57, Christian Nzhie
() escribió:
> Thanks dear Cmdte Alpha.
> It was indeed very informative.

My pleasure.

Re: Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El jue, 25 mar 2021 a las 21:11, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
() escribió:

> I'm trying to install Debian 10.8 on a USB stick, and it is not Debian Live,
> from a hard disk that has Windows 7 installed.  Since I don't have
> any CD or DVD, and I need the USB stick to install Debian on it,
> I can't use the USB stick to put the ISO image on it.
>
> I have downloaded the first ISO DVD image, hd-media/vmlinuz and
> hd-media/initrd.gz.  As I understand, the standalone win32-loader
> downloads its own Debian image, so I supposed I needed the setup.exe
> from the ISO image.  I put debian-10.8.0-i386-DVD-1.iso, g2ldr, g2ldr.mbr
> (these two from the ISO), initrd.gz, setup.exe, vmlinuz and win32-loader.ini
> on the root of C:
> (...)

Hi.

I tried to run setup.exe and it stored all the files necessary for booting
inside a directory at C:
Apparently, it does that for any files you use with it.  The only files it puts
on the root are g2ldr and g2ldr.mbr.  The files were almost successfully copied.

I suppose that win32-loader does its job for any files you give it.
The only problems are these two:

setup.exe could not copy g2ldr and g2ldr.mbr to C: because they
already were in C:
so it "failed".  I will try to put the files on another folder to see
if setup.exe does
the same as before but without failing.

The other problem is, even that grub2 should load and then load linux and the
ram disk and everything should go fine from there, I don't know
if the debian-installer from hd-media searches the ISO at the root directory
or at the same directory where linux and the ram disk are located.

The documentation says to put linux, the ram disk and the ISO at the root,
but since setup.exe puts the first two in some directory and
configures everything
to run from there, I don't know if I should leave the ISO at the root or instead
move it to where linux and the ram disk are.

Any help?

Thanks in advance.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El vie, 9 abr 2021 a las 17:43, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
() escribió:
>
> El lun, 5 abr 2021 a las 10:04, Andrei POPESCU
> () escribió:
> > Hint: the mini.iso does support installing to the same storage device
> > used to start the installer. It also needs internet access for basically
> > everything, so you might need a way to pass firmware to the installer in
> > case the firmware can't be on the same device.
>
> Hi.
>
> I'm sorry Mr. Popescu, I didn't read this mailing list for days.
> Thanks for your help, I have found how to do this and I'll be
> posting here my findings.  Perhaps someone else can pass
> that post to the Wiki, I don't know how to use that.
>
> --
> Time zone: GMT-4

I forgot to send this message to this list.  Sorry.

Re: Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El jue, 25 mar 2021 a las 21:11, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z
() escribió:
> (...lots of things...)

Hi.

I'm going to post a tutorial to do what I did to achieve the
installation of Debian
in the USB stick from Windows' NTFS-formatted partition.

Please, review it and give your opinions/suggestions/fixes.
It would be great if someone could repost this tutorial at the Debian Wiki.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

[SOLVED] Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

On the 25th of March of 2021, I wrote a message asking for help
to install Debian 10.8 (now 10.9) on a USB stick, booting the Debian-installer
from Windows 7's Boot Manager and having the ISO only on the hard disk drive
with only the Windows' partition and its filesystem.

Many thanks in advance to the great Debian developers that have put so much
functionality on the Debian-installer and related stuff.

Here is what I did to reach my goal:

Copyright (c) 2021 Santiago Pinto
Licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0
International Public License
(https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/4.0/legalcode).
This tutorial comes with "ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY".
Tutorial version 1.0

0. TABLE OF CONTENTS

1. PREINSTALLATION.
1.1. Downloading required files.
1.2. Arranging files for preinstallation.
1.3. Modification of configuration file, "win32-loader.ini".
1.4. Starting preinstallation program.
1.5. Preparing the USB stick.
2. INSTALLATION.
2.1. Preparing for the special installation procedure.
2.2. Special installation procedure.
3. SUMMARY.
3.1. Preinstallation.
3.2. Installation.
4. FINAL CONSIDERATIONS.
5. FOOTNOTES.

1. PREINSTALLATION

As with any Debian installation, it is recommended to have the installation
manual at hand, just in case...  Please, read at least every step completely
before doing it.  I use quotes to give clarity to the tutorial, do not include
them when I ask you to write something unless I specifically say to
include them.

1.1. Downloading required files.

1.1.1. Download the first ISO DVD image for Debian.  You can do it by
any medium:
http, bittorrent, jigdo, etc.

1.1.2. From the directory at
http:///debian/dists/buster/main/installer-/current/images/hd-media/
download the files "initrd.gz" and "vmlinuz" there if you would like to install
using the text interface or those inside the directory "gtk" if you would rather
prefer the graphical interface.   is any debian mirror you want
to use like ftp.debian.org and  is the processor architecture's
corresponding suffix (i386, amd64, etc.) which must be the same as the ISO image
you downloaded previously.  Please take into account that if you want to do
the installation in normal mode and not expert mode, you can only choose to use
the graphical interface.

1.1.3. From the directory at http:///debian/pool/main/p/pcre3/
download the file "libpcre3-udeb_8.39-12_i386.udeb".

1.1.4. If you don't already have 7-Zip, find it here https://www.7-zip.org/
and install it. (The installation procedure for 7-Zip is not covered
in this tutorial)

1.2. Arranging files for preinstallation.

1.2.1. Make a temporary folder to store some files for preinstallation.
It is better to make it at the root of C:.  I will assume it is "C:\tmpx\".

1.2.2. Optionally, if you want to be sure that no important installation file
gets accidentally modified, you can make the ISO image, "initrd.gz"
and "vmlinuz"
to be read-only files.  This can be done in the files' properties window or
in cmd.exe with the command attrib.

1.2.3. Move the ISO image to "C:\".

1.2.4. Move "initrd.gz" and "vmlinuz" to "C:\tmpx\".

1.2.5. Open the ISO image with 7-Zip and extract "g2ldr" and "g2ldr.mbr"
from there to "C:\tmpx\".

1.2.6. With the ISO still open, extract "setup.exe" and "win32-loader.ini"
to "C:\".

1.3. Modification of configuration file, "win32-loader.ini".

1.3.1. Open "win32-loader.ini" with Notepad and, if you downloaded the files
for the text installer, delete the two lines that contain the text "gtk",
but if you downloaded the others for the graphical installer, then delete
the two lines above that contain nearly the same text except "gtk".

1.3.2. At the other two lines that you did not deleted, replace the text
from just after the equal sign to just before the last slash
with the name of the temporary folder you made previously, here "tmpx".

1.3.3. At the last two lines, after [grub], add just after the equal sign
"tmpx/".

1.3.4. Double check that you did these three previous steps right.
You should write the name of the temporary folder you made instead of "tmpx"
if you gave it another name.  Do not include the double quotes into the file,
I write them only here for clarity.

1.3.5. Save the file, "win32-loader.ini".

1.4. Starting preinstallation program.

1.4.1. Run "setup.exe" from "C:\".  Follow the instructions there.
If it tells you that you should use a 64-bits version but you are sure
that you need the 32-bits one, then just click on "No", else you should use
the installer and ISO image for that architecture.  I tried the installation
in expert mode but normal might work fine too.  If this preinstallation fails,
retry one more time.

1.5. Preparing the USB stick.

1.5.1. You should backup now anything you don't want to lose from the USB stick.

1.5.2. Make a temporary folder in your hard disk to put some files there.

1.5.3. Open the DVD ISO image

Re: [SOLVED] Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

Hi.

I saw at the Debian Lists' archive
that my attached files were not
shown as attached (as in the
BTS archive), but instead as inserted
into the body of the message.

Is there some other way to attach
the files correctly?
Would it work and could I send the
attachments with HTML?

Well, thanks in advance.

Re: [SOLVED] Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El mar, 27 abr 2021 a las 2:45, Andrei POPESCU
() escribió:
> On Lu, 26 apr 21, 22:16:34, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > Hi.
> >
> > I saw at the Debian Lists' archive
> > that my attached files were not
> > shown as attached (as in the
> > BTS archive), but instead as inserted
> > into the body of the message.
>
> This is just how the archive software shows them, they arrived as
> separate attachments here.

Ok, thanks for that.

> > Is there some other way to attach
> > the files correctly?
> > Would it work and could I send the
> > attachments with HTML?
>
> What problem are you trying to solve?

Well, I intentionally wrote the script with Unix-style LF line endings.
I don't know if "ash" from Busybox will complain or do something
weird if it finds CR LF line endings instead.  I just wanted to avoid
troubles.

On the other hand, as Mr. Davidson said, it is not very clear
where do one file starts and where do it ends.  In the tutorial,
I refer to them as attached files; but people reading the tutorial
through the archive won't see any "attached file".  If I knew this would
happen, I would rather have put some ---HEADERS--- and
---FOOTERS--- to the files.  It is good to know that they were
correctly sent through email.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: [SOLVED] Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El mar, 27 abr 2021 a las 7:33, davidson () escribió:
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > Hi.
> >
> > I saw at the Debian Lists' archive that my attached files were not
> > shown as attached (as in the BTS archive), but instead as inserted
> > into the body of the message.
>
> I have not examined your how-to in detail, but from brief examination
> I am impressed by its organised format. It is clear to me that you put
> substantial effort into that aspect, and that anyone who uses it will
> be grateful for that.
>
> I imagine it is disappointing to see some of that meticulous structure
> stripped away unexpectedly, no matter how minor the difference.

Thanks.

Yes, it is indeed a little disappointing to see my tutorial screwed up.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: [SOLVED] Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El mar, 27 abr 2021 a las 7:40, davidson () escribió:
> On Tue, 27 Apr 2021 davidson wrote:
> > On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> >> Is there some other way to attach the files correctly?
> >
> > I don't know of any way to get the debian-user list's web archive to
> > treat attached files the way you want.
> >
> > In the past on this list, I have occassionally sent the content of
> > such plain-text attachments in the body of replies to my original
> > message, usually with a brief explanatory introduction. Something
> > like, "The rest of this message body consists of the script referred
> > to in my tutorial at
> > camgm-vv655qmbj73oogbde6oog0ex-mn-vs2hhosehh1syq...@mail.gmail.com ")
>
> That last bit would be more helpful like so:
>
> https://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/camgm-vv655qmbj73oogbde6oog0ex-mn-vs2hhosehh1syq...@mail.gmail.com

Thanks, I could consider doing so in order to organize better
the tutorial displayed at the archive.  I will see what other options
do I have.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: [SOLVED] Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El mar, 27 abr 2021 a las 10:35, David Wright
() escribió:
>
> On Mon 26 Apr 2021 at 22:16:34 (-0400), Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> >
> > I saw at the Debian Lists' archive
> > that my attached files were not
> > shown as attached (as in the
> > BTS archive), but instead as inserted
> > into the body of the message.
> >
> > Is there some other way to attach
> > the files correctly?
> > Would it work and could I send the
> > attachments with HTML?
>
> You might attach the shell script as application/x-sh rather
> than text/x-sh¹. That should encode it, and display it as an
> attachment on the web, as with:
>
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2021/03/msg01494.html
>
> making it easier to download. And mutt, for example, would
> display it via the attachment menu, ready for downloading.
>
> AIUI, the policy is to immediately display text/… attachments,
> though mutt demarcates them better than firefox does. I suppose
> one could always wrap the text file into a trivial shell script.
> However, before doing this as a general policy, it's worth
> checking that websites you expect to be archiving/forwarding
> your posts are not stripping attachments. (Some do.)
>
> ¹ I have no idea how different MUAs, and posting sites like
>   gmail, would force this. Mutt does it as a matter of course,
>   and that can be checked before sending, by first postponing
>   the message, and then searching the contents of the Postponed
>   mailbox for "Content-Type: application/x-sh".
>
> Cheers,
> David.

Thank you a lot, sir!

Could you repost my attachments as replies to my tutorial
that way, please?  For now, I have no way of changing
the content type for attachments.  If you do so, please
include also a short note in the body of your message
like "Here are the attachments referred to in the tutorial."

Thanks in advance.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: [SOLVED] Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El mar, 27 abr 2021 a las 11:24,  escribió:
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 11:16:44AM -0400, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > On the other hand, as Mr. Davidson said, it is not very clear
> > where do one file starts and where do it ends [...]
>
> A civilised mail user agent will show MIME part boundaries in
> a suitable way. I think you don't need to worry too much about
> uncivilised MUAs. It's people's choice, after all :-)
>
> Cheers
>  - t

Thanks.  I'm not worrying anymore for the mail messages,
but the problem is the Debian Lists archive's web interface
that doesn't work as a civilised mail user agent.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: [SOLVED] Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El mar, 27 abr 2021 a las 11:44,  escribió:
> On Tue, Apr 27, 2021 at 11:41:16AM -0400, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> [...]
> > > A civilised mail user agent will show MIME part boundaries [...]
>
> > Thanks.  I'm not worrying anymore for the mail messages,
> > but the problem is the Debian Lists archive's web interface
> > that doesn't work as a civilised mail user agent.
>
> ...which is a pity ;-/
>
> But back to topic, thanks for your nice HOWTO :)
>
> Cheers
>  - t

He he, thank you.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4

Re: Installing Debian from a hard disk with Windows to a USB stick

[Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z]

El mar, 27 abr 2021 a las 2:43, Andrei POPESCU
() escribió:
> On Lu, 26 apr 21, 20:34:58, Cmdte Alpha Tigre Z wrote:
> > It would be great if someone could repost this tutorial at the Debian
> > Wiki.
>
> Feel free to do so yourself.

Umm, well.  That will have to wait.
If someone else can repost it under some of the installation
sections of the Wiki, I could give any necessary additional license
to complete the repost after knowing, of course, which license does
that need.  If done, please include a little reference to the tutorial
at https://wiki.debian.org/DebianInstaller/Loader , if you can,
of course.

Thanks.

-- 
Time zone: GMT-4