802.3x pause frames
Hello, I indend to do some experiments with 802.3x pause frames, but I have yet to find a setup that works. I used a tool that generates pause frames [1] in two setups. First one consists of two virtual machines on a VMWare ESXi 5.5 server connected with each other through a virtual switch. In second setup two physical machines (Desktop PCs) were connected directly by an ethernet cable. The VMs are running Debian Wheezy 32bit while Debian Testing (Jessie) 64bit is installed on both desktop PCs. Below you will find some information on the ethernet adapters and drivers used in the VM [2], the desktop PC with the more up to date hardware [3] and the older machine [4]. I used the following command to activate flow control: ethtool -A autoneg off rx on tx on First of all I noticed some discrepancies between the output of mii-tools or ethtool -a and the attempt to change the flow control settings with the command above. Only the Realtek adapter actually output that it didn't support the operation, the other adapters accepted the settings without any error message. In both setups pause frames were generated on one machine while a ping was sent simultaneously, as suggested in [1]. While the VM connection was set to 1 Gbps the whole time, I also tested a 10 Mbps setting on the physical connection. Even though the pause frames were always visible in tcpdump at the receiver, I didn't notice any influence whatsoever in the ping results. Did I miss some important settings that activate pause frame support, or is it possible that none of those different ethernet adapters and modules that were tested support at least the reception of pause frames? If so, are there any adapters that do support them? I'm also not sure how to interpret the output of ethtool. E.g. what does "Advertised pause frame use" mean, exactly? Many thanks. Julia Niewiejska [1] http://www.tux.org/pub/sites/www.zip.com.au/%257Eakpm/linux/#flow-ctrl -- [2] Virtual machine on VMWare ESXi 5.5: Debian Wheezy 32bit, kernel 3.2 *** lspci -v *** 02:02.0 Ethernet controller: Intel Corporation 82545EM Gigabit Ethernet Controller (Copper) (rev 01) Subsystem: VMware PRO/1000 MT Single Port Adapter Physical Slot: 34 Flags: bus master, 66MHz, medium devsel, latency 0, IRQ 16 Memory at fd5a (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=128K] Memory at fdfe (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=64K] I/O ports at 2040 [size=64] [virtual] Expansion ROM at ebb1 [disabled] [size=64K] Capabilities: [dc] Power Management version 2 Capabilities: [e4] PCI-X non-bridge device Kernel driver in use: e1000 *** mii-tool -v *** eth1: negotiated 1000baseT-FD flow-control, link ok product info: Yukon 88E1011 rev 3 basic mode: autonegotiation enabled basic status: autonegotiation complete, link ok capabilities: 1000baseT-FD 100baseTx-FD 100baseTx-HD 10baseT-FD 10baseT-HD advertising: 1000baseT-HD 1000baseT-FD 100baseTx-FD 100baseTx-HD 10baseT-FD 10baseT-HD link partner: 1000baseT-FD 100baseTx-FD 100baseTx-HD 10baseT-FD 10baseT-HD *** ethtool eth1 *** Settings for eth1: Supported ports: [ TP ] Supported link modes: 10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full 1000baseT/Full Supported pause frame use: No Supports auto-negotiation: Yes Advertised link modes: 10baseT/Half 10baseT/Full 100baseT/Half 100baseT/Full 1000baseT/Full Advertised pause frame use: No Advertised auto-negotiation: Yes Speed: 1000Mb/s Duplex: Full Port: Twisted Pair PHYAD: 0 Transceiver: internal Auto-negotiation: on MDI-X: Unknown Supports Wake-on: d Wake-on: d Current message level: 0x0007 (7) drv probe link Link detected: yes *** ethtool -a eth1 *** Pause parameters for eth1: Autonegotiate: on RX: off TX: off -- [3] Desktop PC 1: Debian Jessie 64bit, kernel 3.16 *** lspci -v *** 03:00.0 Ethernet controller: Realtek Semiconductor Co., Ltd. RTL8111/8168/8411 PCI Express Gigabit Ethernet Controller (rev 0c) Subsystem: ASUSTeK Computer Inc. Device 8554 Flags: bus master, fast devsel, latency 0, IRQ 44 I/O ports at d000 [size=256] Memory at f710 (64-bit, non-prefetchable) [size=4K] Memory at f210 (64-bit, prefetchable) [size=16K] Capabilities: [40] Power Management version 3 Capabilities: [50] MSI: Enable+ Count=1/1 Maskable- 64bit+ Capabilities: [70] Express Endpoint, MSI 01 Capabilities: [b0] MSI-X: Enable- Count=4 Masked- Capabilities: [d0] Vital Product D
Debian 6.2 and Systemd ?
First posting here: I have been playing with GNU-Linux ever since Slackware came on a stack of 1.4 floppies, been using Linux on my desktop since 1999 (Mandrake 6.0), recently switched to a Debian derivative (SolydX) to get away from KDE, and am now thinking of going to Debian proper. Seems I have arrived in the middle of a heated controversy, about the merits of Systemd. Which brings me to ask three questions: - Installing Debian-XFCE 7.6 does this by default install/use systemd ? Is there a way to avoid this ? - Is there a way in Debian to avoid using udev which, I suspect, has been causing me untold grief in SolydX ? - Is there a way in Debian to avoid using UUIDs ? TIA Cheers, Ron, on the banks of the Paaguay River. -- He who says it cannot be done should never interrupt he who is doing it. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105065244.0c3b1...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Debian 6.2 and Systemd ?
On Wednesday 05 November 2014 09:52:44 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > am now thinking of going to Debian proper. > > Seems I have arrived in the middle of a heated controversy, about the > merits of Systemd. > > Which brings me to ask three questions: > > - Installing Debian-XFCE 7.6 does this by default install/use systemd ? Is > there a way to avoid this ? Debian 7 does not use systemd by default. > - Is there a way in Debian to avoid using udev which, I suspect, has been > causing me untold grief in SolydX ? There is in Debian. eudev mdev. But I don't know about Debian 7 and udev. I run Debian (now 7.7), with udev, without a problem. > - Is there a way in Debian to avoid using UUIDs ? When I install, I set up partitions with labels. This avoids UUIDs and uses labels instead. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201411051031.52343.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: Debian 6.2 and Systemd ?
On Wed, 5 Nov 2014 10:31:52 + Lisi Reisz wrote: > > - Is there a way in Debian to avoid using UUIDs ? > When I install, I set up partitions with labels. This avoids UUIDs and uses > labels instead. Many thanks; for setting the partitions with labels, is that an option in the install ? (Remember, I am new to Debian ;-3) Cheers, Ron. -- Boob's Law: You always find something in the last place you look. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105082259.6be6d...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Debian 6.2 and Systemd ?
On Wednesday 05 November 2014 11:22:59 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > > When I install, I set up partitions with labels. This avoids UUIDs and > > uses labels instead. > > Many thanks; for setting the partitions with labels, is that an option in > the install ? (Remember, I am new to Debian ;-3) Yes. You need to go for manual partitioning. But that is worth doing anyway. Then one of the options is setting a label. I don't know for sure that you cannot set a label via automatic partitioning. I just don't know that you can. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201411051149.57219.lisi.re...@gmail.com
AW: Debian 6.2 and Systemd ?
Hi, if you have already installed Debian with Gnome. Applications -> Accessories -> Disk Utility You can set the partitions labels. Else: e2label Cheers -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI [mailto:ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org] Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. November 2014 12:23 An: debian-user@lists.debian.org Betreff: Re: Debian 6.2 and Systemd ? On Wed, 5 Nov 2014 10:31:52 + Lisi Reisz wrote: > > - Is there a way in Debian to avoid using UUIDs ? > When I install, I set up partitions with labels. This avoids UUIDs > and uses labels instead. Many thanks; for setting the partitions with labels, is that an option in the install ? (Remember, I am new to Debian ;-3) Cheers, Ron. -- Boob's Law: You always find something in the last place you look. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105082259.6be6d...@ron.cerrocora.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/6b09b26dd4b7c84aac938fd365930e1bcb94546...@afmbx.autoform.com
Re: Debian 6.2 and Systemd ?
On Wed, 5 Nov 2014 11:49:57 + Lisi Reisz wrote: > > > When I install, I set up partitions with labels. This avoids UUIDs and > > > uses labels instead. > > Many thanks; for setting the partitions with labels, is that an option in > > the install ? (Remember, I am new to Debian ;-3) > Yes. You need to go for manual partitioning. But that is worth doing > anyway. Yes, given that I have for a long time used separate partitions for /boot, /var, and /home. > Then one of the options is setting a label. > I don't know for sure that you cannot set a label via automatic partitioning. > > I just don't know that you can. OK thanks for the advice, I'll follow that route. Tariq Doukkali wrote: > if you have already installed Debian with Gnome. > Applications -> Accessories -> Disk Utility > You can set the partitions labels. Thanks, but having dropped Mageia so I could get rid of the KDE bloat, I'm not inclined to get into the Gnome bloat; and even more so when I read that Gnome will make systemd a dependency... Cheers, Ron. -- Boob's Law: You always find something in the last place you look. -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105092326.2fa78...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Debian 6.2 and Systemd ?
On 11/5/14, Tariq Doukkali wrote: > Hi, > > if you have already installed Debian with Gnome. > > Applications -> Accessories -> Disk Utility > > You can set the partitions labels. > > Else: > > e2label I've never had luck going disk utility route only as user. Changes never seem to stick. Surely just a permissions thing aka a good thing because that's an important part of a system's operability. In those cases I "sudo palimpsest" (CLI, command line interface from within a terminal) before "Edit Filesystem Label", and then it sticks.. :) Also just tried "sudo gparted". By right clicking and unmounting a target partition, I was then offered the option to change the label name on the next right click over same.. e2label, first time I've heard that. Will be checking it out. I LOVE THIS LIST :) PS All the above? Prime example of. oh, what _is_ that word.. *CHOICE* Cindy :) -- Cindy-Sue Causey Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA * runs with duct tape * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAO1P-kDdmqPozRjy=qtv+xsziuy5tuilxtfesayvakln0is...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
Scott Ferguson wrote: On 05/11/14 14:00, Miles Fidelman wrote: Scott Ferguson wrote: On 05/11/14 12:28, Miles Fidelman wrote: Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: Le mardi, 4 novembre 2014, 17.13:05 Miles Fidelman a écrit : Personally, the more this drags on, the more I'm convinced that those of us who deploy and manage servers would really benefit from a fork that retains the "flavor" and philosophy of pre-systemd (and maybe pre-udev) Debian. As JS posted - it's likely that the majority of us sit somewhere in between the two extremes (Conservative Fundamentalists and Cutting Edge Advocates). Just. Do. It. It might even be successful! We'll be in a better world with a new distro out there satisfying needs not satisfied anymore by Debian! I'd have to agree with another poster - it's logistically more likely to succeed[*1] (and be less divisive) if it was a Debian derivative. Isn't that a rather fine distinction? No. There's a *huge* difference between repackaging a small selection of packages, around a small number of architectures aimed at a small range of uses, and forking Debian. Could you expand on why, as you infer, that is not such a "fine distinction" - or are you "all froth and no beer"? Enough with the insults and superior attitude (I'll match creds with you any day of the week). How is a fork all that different than a derivative? Having proposed that it's "a fine distinction" it would be more appropriate to answer your own question and support your earlier claim - don't you think? It's just that I've never heard a clear distinction between the two. Ubuntu is often described as "Debian-based" (e.g., at Wikipedia) - is it a "fork" or a "derivative?" Fork has a clear meaning when talking about a piece of application code. It's a lot less clear when we're talking systems that share a lot of underlying code (like a packaging system and the ability to pull from each others' repositories). If you want to play definitional games, you tell me: - same packaging system - same upstreams - possibly pull from the Debian repository - though it's pretty clear that we'd have to rejigger some, maybe a lot of dependencies information (at least re. package priorities) Is that a fork or a derivative. I don't know. And I'm not sure it makes a difference. What would make a difference would be an entirely new distro - different packaging system, different repo, different installer, and so forth. [*1] I haven't noticed anyone volunteering to do the work - as opposed to "organizing" others. Well, that's the point of the discussion Clearly unrelated from that which you are responding to. - to suss out who's willing and able to do the work. Are you willing to do any of the work? Depends on who else is interested. Given that you seem to have no interest other than throwing rocks - what's it to you? Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a2653.3070...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: Le mardi, 4 novembre 2014, 21.13:36 Jerry Stuckle a écrit : Yes, but you seem to want to stifle any discussion of a possible fork. Discussions about possible forks are off-topic on debian-user, please re-read the list topic: >From https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ : Community assistance and support for Debian users. Support for Debian users who speak English Ahh.. looks like somebody unilaterally changed the tag line for the list. Until recently, it included "discussion among Debian users" - when did that happen? And.. regardless: - I'm a Debian user - I'm looking for information and support regarding the possibility of forking (or deriving) based on Debian (and who else might be thinking the same thing) Go play "list cop" somewhere else. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a27e3.4040...@meetinghouse.net
How to use the network-manager-strongswan
Hello, I want to use the network-manager-strongswan to connect ikev2 vpn server, but I can not find how to configure the network-manager-strongswan via UI or configuration file. Could you tell me how to use it if you know? Thank you very much! My debian version is testing, and the window manager is gnome 3.14. Gulfstream -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a28f0.2020...@gmail.com
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
An opinion from a very new debian user... On 11/4/2014 5:09 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote: > http://debianfork.org/: > > "If systemd will be substituting sysvinit in Debian, we will fork the > project and create a new distro. We hope this won't be necessary, but > we are well prepared for it." > > I call that a threat. And the same kind of message are all around the > debian mailing lists and other social media. It isn't a threat, it is a simple declaration of intent. Personally I think the biggest issue with Jessie at present is the inability to do a clean install with sysvinit rather than systemd as the init system. Seems to me like an underhanded back-door way to *force* people into at least trying it, as I imagine most regular users will do that rather than immediately go through the pain of switching to sysvinit and purging systemd. If that one thing is fixed before Jessie hist release status, then I would say it would eliminate pretty much all of the major (relevant) arguments against this experiment... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a2a9b.1090...@libertytrek.org
Re: Systemd and Unix
Gary Dale wrote: On 04/11/14 08:38 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: Santiago Vila wrote: On Fri, Oct 31, 2014 at 12:38:00PM -0400, David Kline wrote: I have heard a lot of talk about how systemd deviates from the unix philosophy. What is the unix philosophy, how does debian follow it, and why does systemd break it? I suspect that people do not want yet another thread about systemd and that's why nobody answered your questions. Assuming your questions are real and genunine, this is what I can tell you: There is not a single rule that may be considered "the unix philosophy". Instead, there are several of them as you can check here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix_philosophy People who dislike systemd often cite "Make each program do one thing well" as the rule being "broken", as systemd does several things other than booting the system that sysvinit didn't do. As this is debian-user and not debian-philosophy, I suggest that you keep reading about the subject and actually try systemd on jessie to have your own opinion about it. I have production systems to run, and other work to do. So far, all of the reports I've been seeing lead me to the conclusion: - run Wheezy as long as I possibly can - invest my time in exploring BSD and illumos based distros - that still seem to focus on server-side production applications - avoid any investment of time in jessie until things play out a bit more Miles Fidelman Actually, I've got a problem with sysvinit on one machine running Wheezy but have had no problems with systemd on my Jessie machines. Moreover systemd is being adopted by just about everyone. I don't want to continue this discussion because it's futile. Systemd is just a better way to run the init process. Get used to it. Well. Lucky for you. For me: - no problems at all with systemd - lots of reports, on lists concerned with running operational servers, about dealing with systemd issues - more than a few questions here along the lines of "systemd changed this, how do I fix/correct this?" - more than enough to tell me that the day I start migrating, I can expect a lot of sleepless nights getting my servers back into production - it's your opinion that "systemd is just a better way to run the init process" - others differ, personally I'm agnostic - my problem is to operational impact and the bundle of dependencies - if you "don't want to continue this discussion" - you're free to use your delete key or kill file - some of us DO want to continue this discussion, and I'd thank you to stop adding noise Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a29db.2030...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
On 11/5/2014 2:37 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > Le mardi, 4 novembre 2014, 21.13:36 Jerry Stuckle a écrit : >> Yes, but you seem to want to stifle any discussion of a possible fork. > > Discussions about possible forks are off-topic on debian-user, please > re-read the list topic: > >>From https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ : >> Community assistance and support for Debian users. >> Support for Debian users who speak English > > Thanks in advance for moving this "discussion about possible forks" > elsewhere; there's d-community-offtopic[0] if you need a Debian-hosted > forum. > > Cheers, > OdyX > > [0] http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic > > I disagree. This is ALL about Debian and Debian users. Just because YOU don't like the idea of a fork does not mean other Debian users aren't interested. And the advantages and disadvantages of a fork should be of interest to all Debian users. Jerry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a3266.9030...@attglobal.net
forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
Specifically addressed to those of you who are responding to systemd,
etc., by considering:
- finding ways to make it easier to install/configure Debian without (or
with minimal) systemd dependencies (certainly not in PID1)
- migrating to another distro or platform
- forking, deriving, or otherwise building a version of Debian that
avoids systemd dependencies (or at least systemd in PID1 by default)
- developing a new distro entirely
[If you're happy with systemd, and not considering a change - please
stay out of this discussion. If you object to the very nature of the
discussion, hit your delete key and kill file this thread now.]
Rather than have this topic keep showing up in various threads, with
various uninformative names, what say I just pose the question directly.
If you're unhappy with systemd (and it's associated ecosystem), and/or
with the directions that it's taking Debian (and/or large portions of
the Linux ecosystem):
1. What are your issues, reasons for doing so - general and/or specific?
2. What are you considering, evaluating, or otherwise thinking about?
3. What other options/initiatives are you aware of that you've discarded
or otherwise are not considering, and why?
To start, I'll answer these myself:
Re. 1:
- I'm specifically concerned about the impacts of upgrading to Jessie,
in terms of having to re-wire collections of packages, configuration,
initialization scripts, etc. that are supporting several production
systems. All reports I've seen suggest that I'll end up with servers
out of commission for a while, and more than a few sleepless nights. I
simply don't have the time available to fix stuff that isn't broken.
- I have a general concern about systemd as an init system - I'm
uncomfortable with having it manage dependencies among the
initialization of inter-twined services. (Possibly as a result of
several sleepless nights caused by udev doing the wrong thing, or at
least something unexpected.)
- On a more general note, I have serious concerns about the monolithic
nature of the systemd ecosystem (the term "hairball comes to mind"), the
diversion from well established design philosophies ("The UNIX way" for
want of a better term), and what seems to be a focus on desktops at the
expense of servers.
- I also have some serious concerns about the the motivations,
approaches, and work quality of the primary developers behind the
systemd ecosystem - concerns shared by no less than Linux Torvalds.
- I've been becoming more troubled by the nature of decision making in
the Debian community and recent directions in overall philosophy.
Re: 2:
- I've been looking most seriously at sticking with Wheezy as long as
possible, and hoping things will settle out in a favorable way, though
I'm less and less comfortable that things will do so.
- Gentoo and Funtoo are the obvious places to migrate to - but compiling
everything from source is such a pain. Since I'm basically running a
limited number of services, LFS + some rundeck scripts to install
directly from upstream, might be the most direct way to manage our
boxes. I'm not completely convinced that a distro adds that much value
for our purposes.
- I really like apt- as a packaging system; it all just works - so a
Debian fork or derivative is attractive; but I'm not sure how much I can
bring to the table to make it happen (all my coding experience is in
languages other than C, and I'm a bit rusty at that - systems
architecture, sys admin, infrastructure, documentation - that I can
contributed, but you don't want me coding) -- so, in this regard I'd be
interested in supporting/contributing to an effort, but somebody else
has to be the next Ian Murdock or Daniel Robbins).
- I'm starting to keep my eye on the GNU crowd, and GUIX
- BSD has always been attractive as a stable server platform - lack of
Xen support has been the killer for me
- the Open Solaris, now illumos world seems to be where a lot of the
action is, in terms of real innovation (SmartOS seems very attractive) -
again, lack of Xen support, and lack of anything like DRBD holds things
up -- I'm seriously looking at was to achieve high-availability failover
without having to migrate to a SAN (mirroring mail ques and such, with
DRBD, just works so nicely)
- for some of our future development work, which involves protocol
stacks - I'm seriously looking at Erlang-on-Xen, and avoiding *nix
entirely. Unikernals really do look like the future.
Re: 3:
- OpenSUSE is attractive as a server-oriented distro, and they are at
least making attempts to dis-aggregate the systemd hairball (e.g.,
they're not shipping journald as default) - but... systemd in PID1 and
no real alternatives is a show-stopper.
- All the distros that are desktop oriented (which seems to be the
majority these days).
- In general, distros with packaging systems other than apt-, unless
they offer a clear win re. systemd-avoidance and a server-side
orientation.
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
Tanstaafl wrote: An opinion from a very new debian user... On 11/4/2014 5:09 PM, Laurent Bigonville wrote: http://debianfork.org/: "If systemd will be substituting sysvinit in Debian, we will fork the project and create a new distro. We hope this won't be necessary, but we are well prepared for it." I call that a threat. And the same kind of message are all around the debian mailing lists and other social media. It isn't a threat, it is a simple declaration of intent. Personally I think the biggest issue with Jessie at present is the inability to do a clean install with sysvinit rather than systemd as the init system. Seems to me like an underhanded back-door way to *force* people into at least trying it, as I imagine most regular users will do that rather than immediately go through the pain of switching to sysvinit and purging systemd. If that one thing is fixed before Jessie hist release status, then I would say it would eliminate pretty much all of the major (relevant) arguments against this experiment... I'd agree. -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a3570.3040...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Systemd and Unix
On 05/11/14 12:54 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 11/04/2014 08:06 PM, Gary Dale wrote: I've got a problem with sysvinit on one machine running Wheezy.. Would you mind telling us what the problem is? I already did a couple of days ago on this list. Got no responses so I filed a bug report. The problem is the /etc/init.d/networking script never completes, which prevents a server from booting. All the subsequent scripts are waiting for this one to complete before proceeding. The asynchronous nature of systemd would allow the boot to finish even when a script goes bad. In this particular case, it appears the problem comes after the network is actually in a working state, so I could possibly ssh in under systemd but I can't even ping the box under sysvinit. More to the point, because systemd doesn't need init scripts, the problem may not even occur. After all, a bad systemd is more likely to be noticed than one init script that fails only in a particular circumstance. And configuration files are harder to mess up than lengthy scripts. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a349c.4080...@torfree.net
Re: Howto add a vnc URL handler to Icedove?
On Saturday 01 November 2014 13:51:16 Jape Person wrote: > You (Scott) help a lot of people here. I wish someone would help you! Sadly, perhaps no-one knows the answer. :-( Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201411051455.44998.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
Le 05.11.2014 15:32, Miles Fidelman a écrit : Specifically addressed to those of you who are responding to systemd, etc., by considering: - finding ways to make it easier to install/configure Debian without (or with minimal) systemd dependencies (certainly not in PID1) - migrating to another distro or platform - forking, deriving, or otherwise building a version of Debian that avoids systemd dependencies (or at least systemd in PID1 by default) - developing a new distro entirely [If you're happy with systemd, and not considering a change - please stay out of this discussion. If you object to the very nature of the discussion, hit your delete key and kill file this thread now.] Rather than have this topic keep showing up in various threads, with various uninformative names, what say I just pose the question directly. If you're unhappy with systemd (and it's associated ecosystem), and/or with the directions that it's taking Debian (and/or large portions of the Linux ecosystem): 1. What are your issues, reasons for doing so - general and/or specific? 2. What are you considering, evaluating, or otherwise thinking about? 3. What other options/initiatives are you aware of that you've discarded or otherwise are not considering, and why? Hum. Yet another systemd's thread... hopefully it won't be another endless one. Now, about your questions. 1) I doubt that systemd's developers knows where their puppet will end. I liked the idea of removing those weird shell scripts in /etc/init.d, but it does just too many things now. Really, I can't trust a project which does not have defined boundaries, especially when it's a key component of the system. Also, since the decision was taken to make it the default, my systems running under Jessie were actually slower to boot, with a 30s delay in udev (and I did not changed the init system). A workaround was posted here some months ago, but I can't remember what it was. There is also the fact that now, when I use startx, I am no longer able to read what happen on the TTY where I've started startx. I guess, that it can be configured, but I don't understand why my system's behavior was changed by an update? I do not want a system where the behavior changes without a warning. Of course, it's testing, so things changes... but such a change should not be silent. Those things are facts, that maybe I am the only one to experiment. I do not know, and I do not mind. Also, systemd's key feature to be event-based is useless to me. It probably makes it faster to start working on bloated systems (like, for example, systems which uses gnome or kde?) but I'm not a bloat user. So event-based daemons starts does changes nothing for me. And if I have to configure a real server, for production uses, I would tend to prefer to have something like one service per virtual machine. So, again, useless for me. 2) I want to take a real look to *BSD, especially netBSD. I have read some source code for various basic tools, and it is clear to my eyes: netBSD's code seems to be very clean. FreeBSD seems to have some efforts in virtualisation too, with bhyve, but it's a type 2 hyperv, like virtualbox, so I'm not really sure about it. And I did not had the feeling that it's ready for production use from what I've read. Also, I am curious about what will happen to uselessd and udev alternatives. They might allow to build interesting things. Gentoo interests me a lot, also. I always had an eye on it, and even tried it. But failed. Next holidays, again? I know that it requires more maintenance than Debian, but I guess that it might not be that dramatic if it is only used as dom0 for xen, with some *BSD machines on it. Updating almost only kernel+xen should not be that time-consuming, right? 3) LFS. Because, for now, I do not have time and skills. Maybe on my next holidays? Debian fork, or something like that, I do not remember the URI... but anyway, what I felt when I discovered the site, was that I was reading some childish declarations of doing the wheel better than what exists. We'll see if anything can spawn from that, but I've no faith there. Sometimes, when I feel by far smarter than I really am, I think that it might be possible to improve dpkg, to do stuff like gentoo's package manager. And why not make it able to install softwares in ~? And why not make aptitude less bloated? While I would be there, I also could make all that stuff able to do more than one thing at a time and so improve the speed (at least, downloading, unpacking, and selecting packages could be made without blocking other tasks)... But then I wake up: I'm not smart enough to do that kind of things :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/edb9f54a8276bacf5fa6f82be1915...@neutralite.org
Re: How to use the network-manager-strongswan
Le Wed, 05 Nov 2014 21:41:04 +0800, Gulfstrean Wang a écrit : > Hello, Hello, > I want to use the network-manager-strongswan to connect ikev2 vpn > server, but I can not find how to configure the > network-manager-strongswan via UI or configuration file. Could you > tell me how to use it if you know? Thank you very much! > > My debian version is testing, and the window manager is gnome 3.14. You could try to use nm-connection-editor to configure the connection. BUT, I'm not actually sure about the working state of nm-strongswan. Last time I tried it, I end up loosing the loopback interface when disconnecting. Not sure if anything changed. Also note that it will be not release with jessie due to a RC bug (it seems FTBFS with recent gnome-keyring versions). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105162224.09be9...@soldur.bigon.be
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
Le Tue, 04 Nov 2014 22:00:12 -0500, Miles Fidelman a écrit : [...] > - SUSE seems to be moving down the systemd path, but with less > aggregation (e.g., systemd w/o journald) I personally didn't checked, but I can bet money on it if you want, that SLES 12 is doing _exactly_ what debian IS doing, aka installing a regular syslog daemon and not creating a /var/log/journal directory meaning that the journal is in memory only and not saved across reboot. But journald daemon will be still running. The following URL seems to confirm that: https://www.suse.com/documentation/sles-12/book_sle_admin/data/journalctl_persistent.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105164149.5e5b7...@soldur.bigon.be
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
Le mercredi, 5 novembre 2014, 09.21:26 Jerry Stuckle a écrit : > On 11/5/2014 2:37 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > > Discussions about possible forks are off-topic on debian-user, > > please re-read the list topic: > > From https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/ : > >> Community assistance and support for Debian users. > >> Support for Debian users who speak English > > > > Thanks in advance for moving this "discussion about possible forks" > > elsewhere; there's d-community-offtopic[0] if you need a > > Debian-hosted forum. > > I disagree. This is ALL about Debian and Debian users. Please re-read what I wrote, I'm not claiming it's not related to Debian, at all; I'm claiming that the discussion is not on-topic for debian-user, which is not a generic discussion forum, but a list specifically focused on "community assistance and support for Debian users". > Just because YOU don't like the idea of a fork does not mean other > Debian users aren't interested. I'm entirely neutral to the idea of a Debian fork; I am just pointing out that this off-topic discussion is hijacking debian-user and that it's not Debian's responsibility to host discussion about possible forks. I'll go as far as saying that it _is_ Debian's responsibility to make sure its resources are properly used for the actual _assistance_ of its users. Keeping list discussions on-topic is one way of ensuring this. > And the advantages and disadvantages of a fork should be of interest > to all Debian users. Discussions about the advantages and disadvantages of Ubuntu or Mint are not on-topic for debian-user either. At least these forks/derivatives _exist_. OdyX -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/3628845.Hoe2mZ84da@gyllingar
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
Miles, Le mercredi, 5 novembre 2014, 09.32:57 Miles Fidelman a écrit : > [If you're happy with systemd, and not considering a change - please > stay out of this discussion. If you object to the very nature of the > discussion, hit your delete key and kill file this thread now.] I object to the very nature of this discussion on debian-user: it's not _at_all_ on-topic for this list. I'm not happy either with you suggesting that people finding this thread off-topic should "kill file this thread". This list will only stay useful for Debian users seeking "community assistance and support" iff the discussions stay focused on providing this community assistance and support. Please stop this constant hijack of debian-user with these "meta" discussions (that these are about systemd is not relevant). These discussions are roughly on-topic on d-community-offtopic [0] if you absolutely need to use a Debian-provided list. Thanks in advance for the sanity of the other readers of debian-user. OdyX [0] http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/d-community-offtopic/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1953267.xbI6c68Us2@gyllingar
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
- Original Message - > From: "berenger morel" > To: debian-user@lists.debian.org > Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2014 10:17:22 AM > Subject: Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing >> Rather than have this topic keep showing up in various threads, with >> various uninformative names, what say I just pose the question >> directly. >> >> If you're unhappy with systemd (and it's associated ecosystem), >> and/or with the directions that it's taking Debian (and/or large >> portions of the Linux ecosystem): >> 1. What are your issues, reasons for doing so - general and/or >> specific? >> 2. What are you considering, evaluating, or otherwise thinking about? >> 3. What other options/initiatives are you aware of that you've >> discarded or otherwise are not considering, and why? > I have just my laptop and three home "servers". I have Debian on only one of the three, though one of the others is running Ubuntu, so there's some crossover there. 1. My concerns are philosophical, political, and somewhat technical. I think systemd is just trying to do too many things. It seems by taking the idea of "...well, this 'thing' would really benefit from being tied in too because it relies on X" to its logical conclusion, then *everything* should eventually be part of systemd and you wind up with a SystemdOS. That might be OK, but it's not unixlike. Also while there are certainly some in the anti-systmed crowd that are just plain crazy, there are many in the pro crowd that are just plain rude, condescending, dismissive, etc.. Basically if you don't agree with them, then there must be something wrong with you... like you're stupid. I don't care for that attitude and I think it bodes poorly for systemd. 2. I'm not doing anything with the servers for now. I'll hold out as long as I can and make a decision about what to do with them at the last possible moment. There just my personal stuff, so I can afford to hold out for a long time. For the laptop I'm going with the Void distribution. It takes some extra work, but absolutely everything ultimately works: sound, hibernate (CLI and GUI), skype. 3. Anything Illumos based. I tried a few different ones and the all cash during initial startup. It happens really fast, so I can't even see what the issue is. Oracle Solaris. The GUI installer dies on trying to start an X session. I could work around it manually, but I was already not real keen on going with Oracle anyway. BSDs. I've used FreeBSD one way or another since v4.1, but it's not good for a laptop IMO. Net and OpenBSD -- one doesn't support my wifi card and the other I don't remember what I disliked at this point. Funtoo, way, way too much work for desktop/laptop system. PC-BSD would probably be my #2 choice after Void except there's no support for either my wifi or wired card until 11.0. So my opinions are Void for a laptop, desktop, notebook. Server's are trickier. Depends on your hardware and what software you need to run and how much time and effort you're willing to put it to get it to run if you have to start gathering requirements, compiling, etc. manually vs. a distro that "just works" as far as whatever you need it to do, but might not fit your philosophies. If FreeBSD supports it, that'd be my first choice. After that, maybe Void again. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1486532066.1222.1415203932101.javamail.zim...@infinitebubble.com
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
On Wednesday 05 November 2014 16:12:12 Jason C. Taylor wrote: > So my opinions are Void for a laptop, desktop, notebook. Server's are > trickier. Depends on your hardware and what software you need to run and > how much time and effort you're willing to put it to get it to run if you > have to start gathering requirements, compiling, etc. manually vs. a distro > that "just works" as far as whatever you need it to do, but might not fit > your philosophies. If FreeBSD supports it, that'd be my first choice. > After that, maybe Void again. So this is nothing to do with Debian. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201411051638.04313.lisi.re...@gmail.com
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
After a while I deleted most threads on systemd because I do have to get some work done. And by the time Jessie becomes stable, some of the questions will undoubtedly have been resolved. However, this Subject line drew my attention. I'm a debian-user who has no expertise in coding, Debian's viscera or in system-administration. Years ago I moved from OS/2 to Debian because of its philosophy and more recently because I thought it less prone to backdoors. However, when I thought of upgrading to Jessie testing I came to realize that it was premature to do so. As a "debian-user", because of basic issues that affect politics, philosophy and usability, I have to decide when Jessie becomes stable whether to jump ship to something like BSD, Slackware, or Debian from Scratch. This seems to me an entirely legitimate issue for the debian-user group, for it concerns whether Debian will continue to be useful in relation to the needs and values of its average user. Haines Brown -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105164555.ge4...@historicalmaterialism.info
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
On 05/11/14 16:38, Lisi Reisz wrote: On Wednesday 05 November 2014 16:12:12 Jason C. Taylor wrote: So my opinions are Void for a laptop, desktop, notebook. Server's are trickier. Depends on your hardware and what software you need to run and how much time and effort you're willing to put it to get it to run if you have to start gathering requirements, compiling, etc. manually vs. a distro that "just works" as far as whatever you need it to do, but might not fit your philosophies. If FreeBSD supports it, that'd be my first choice. After that, maybe Void again. So this is nothing to do with Debian. Lisi "there are many in the pro crowd that are just plain rude, condescending, dismissive, etc.. Basically if you don't agree with them, then there must be something wrong with you... like you're stupid. I don't care for that attitude and I think it bodes poorly for systemd." But that is, isn't it? At least with some Debian users? jss -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/blu437-smtp70329a387e48c4bd714bc9d0...@phx.gbl
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
Quoting myself from http://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20141021184619.gq28...@teltox.donarmstrong.com with modifications. On Wed, 05 Nov 2014, Tanstaafl wrote: > Personally I think the biggest issue with Jessie at present is the > inability to do a clean install with sysvinit rather than systemd as > the init system. That preseeding doesn't do this is a bug, it's filed (#668001), and the patch for it was just written on October 17th. Because Debian is going to freeze for Jessie in under 7 *hours*, the maintainers aren't going to apply this patch this close to release without extensive testing. Furthermore, the effect of this patch is trivially obtained by using a late_command to remove systemd-sysv and install sysvinit-core. If you actually want to see this patch applied to the version of the Debian installer that Jessie will release with, you should coordinate with the nice people in #debian-boot to see what type of testing they would want to see before they are willing to vet the patch. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com "People selling drug paraphernalia ... are as much a part of drug trafficking as silencers are a part of criminal homicide." -- John Brown, DEA Chief -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105180309.gt23...@teltox.donarmstrong.com
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
Sorry friend, like I said, I'm a new user. This is on the Debian devs. And if they choose NOT to do this, then ALL of the resulting (and continuing/ongoing) systemd noise is ON THEM. PERIOD. Such a major change without classifying a bug like this as a SHOWSTOPPER speaks volumes. On 11/5/2014 1:03 PM, Don Armstrong wrote: > Quoting myself from > http://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20141021184619.gq28...@teltox.donarmstrong.com > with modifications. > > On Wed, 05 Nov 2014, Tanstaafl wrote: >> Personally I think the biggest issue with Jessie at present is the >> inability to do a clean install with sysvinit rather than systemd as >> the init system. > > That preseeding doesn't do this is a bug, it's filed (#668001), and the > patch for it was just written on October 17th. Because Debian is going > to freeze for Jessie in under 7 *hours*, the maintainers aren't going to > apply this patch this close to release without extensive testing. > > Furthermore, the effect of this patch is trivially obtained by using a > late_command to remove systemd-sysv and install sysvinit-core. > > If you actually want to see this patch applied to the version of the > Debian installer that Jessie will release with, you should coordinate > with the nice people in #debian-boot to see what type of testing they > would want to see before they are willing to vet the patch. > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a68cf.20...@libertytrek.org
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014, Tanstaafl wrote: > Sorry friend, like I said, I'm a new user. > > This is on the Debian devs. > > And if they choose NOT to do this, then ALL of the resulting (and > continuing/ongoing) systemd noise is ON THEM. > > PERIOD. If no one is willing to do the work, then the work won't get done. > Such a major change without classifying a bug like this as a > SHOWSTOPPER speaks volumes. It's not an RC bug because it's easy to overcome with a late command. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com Those who begin coercive elimination of dissent soon find themselves exterminating dissenters. Compulsory unification of opinion achieves only the unanimity of the graveyard. -- Justice Roberts in 319 U.S. 624 (1943) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105183556.gw23...@teltox.donarmstrong.com
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
On 11/5/2014 1:35 PM, Don Armstrong wrote: > It's not an RC bug because it's easy to overcome with a late command. Not understanding this reference - so, you're saying you *can* perform a clean install of Jessie using sysvinit for the init system, just using a special command during the install process? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a70d0.6080...@libertytrek.org
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
Don Armstrong wrote: Quoting myself from http://lists.debian.org/msgid-search/20141021184619.gq28...@teltox.donarmstrong.com with modifications. On Wed, 05 Nov 2014, Tanstaafl wrote: Personally I think the biggest issue with Jessie at present is the inability to do a clean install with sysvinit rather than systemd as the init system. That preseeding doesn't do this is a bug, it's filed (#668001), and the patch for it was just written on October 17th. Because Debian is going to freeze for Jessie in under 7 *hours*, the maintainers aren't going to apply this patch this close to release without extensive testing. Furthermore, the effect of this patch is trivially obtained by using a late_command to remove systemd-sysv and install sysvinit-core. If you actually want to see this patch applied to the version of the Debian installer that Jessie will release with, you should coordinate with the nice people in #debian-boot to see what type of testing they would want to see before they are willing to vet the patch. Well, actually - I attempted to do just that, and received no response. Someone else did some testing and reported it against the bug. Still, no comments back from anyone. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a71bd.7090...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
Tanstaafl wrote: On 11/5/2014 1:35 PM, Don Armstrong wrote: It's not an RC bug because it's easy to overcome with a late command. Not understanding this reference - so, you're saying you *can* perform a clean install of Jessie using sysvinit for the init system, just using a special command during the install process? No, what you can do is immediately uninstall systemd, and install systemvinit- "late" in the install process. Personally, I don't see that as equivalent. There are way too many inter-twined dependencies that have to be unwound at that stage - making this quite different from a clean sysvinit install. That the bug dates back quite a while - originally reported by someone trying to do a clean install of systemd, into Wheezy, makes me wonder about how real support for multiple init systems is really going to be as we move down the road. I agree that it should be a showstopper. But then, I'm not part of the release team. Miles Fidelman -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a72ce.4060...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014, Tanstaafl wrote: > On 11/5/2014 1:35 PM, Don Armstrong wrote: > > It's not an RC bug because it's easy to overcome with a late command. > > Not understanding this reference - so, you're saying you *can* perform > a clean install of Jessie using sysvinit for the init system, just > using a special command during the install process? Yes, FSVO "clean". You'll have installed systemd-sysv at some point, but the in the late command you will purge it and install sysvinit-core instead. The reason you can't do this at debootstrap time and have to use the late command is because of #668001, which is due to the lack of proper dependency handling when given --exclude and --include options in cases which involve alternative dependencies. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com in Just- spring when the world is mud- luscious the little lame baloonman whistles far and wee -- e.e. cummings "[in Just-]" -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105185742.gz23...@teltox.donarmstrong.com
debian update + systemd + broken
Hello list, I like to share my horrible experience with debian (testing branch) update done few hours back and the consequences. I see I got a new systemd service. but this can't properly mount my LVM partitions and always land me into the maintenance mode. Though can mount then the lvm partitions manually but no graphics, no virtual terminal. Then I purged systemd which automatically installed sysvinit and rebooted... still same result. Installed systemd again , no change, BUT WAIT. if I execute "exit" command from maintenance, it put me into normal graphical mode. OK, now I got it few times... first it put me into maintenance after boot, then exit command puts me into mode 2 with all LVM mounted properly. And I don't have any idea what is going wrong :-( anyone please ? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105184516.5ed2e...@shiva.selfip.org
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
On 11/5/2014 1:57 PM, Don Armstrong wrote: > On Wed, 05 Nov 2014, Tanstaafl wrote: >> Not understanding this reference - so, you're saying you *can* perform >> a clean install of Jessie using sysvinit for the init system, just >> using a special command during the install process? > > Yes, FSVO "clean". You'll have installed systemd-sysv at some point, but > the in the late command you will purge it and install sysvinit-core > instead. Sorry, that is *not* the definition of 'clean' in my or anyone I know's vocabulary. > The reason you can't do this at debootstrap time and have to use the > late command is because of #668001, which is due to the lack of proper > dependency handling when given --exclude and --include options in cases > which involve alternative dependencies. and again, this should absolutely be a showstopper bug. And again, the fact that it is not speaks volumes. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a74a5.1060...@libertytrek.org
Re: debian update + systemd + broken
On Wed, 05 Nov 2014, Bob wrote: > Installed systemd again , no change, BUT WAIT. if I execute "exit" > command from maintenance, it put me into normal graphical mode. OK, > now I got it few times... first it put me into maintenance after boot, > then exit command puts me into mode 2 with all LVM mounted properly. > > And I don't have any idea what is going wrong :-( > anyone please ? This sounds like you have a fsck which is failing, or something else along those lines. You should see output on the screen related to that. -- Don Armstrong http://www.donarmstrong.com Do not handicap your children by making their lives easy. -- Robert Heinlein _Time Enough For Love_ p251 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105200935.ga29...@teltox.donarmstrong.com
Re: debian update + systemd + broken
2014-11-05 19:45 GMT+01:00 Bob : > I like to share my horrible experience with debian (testing branch) update > done few hours back and the consequences. I guess that it's always important to read well the mailing list dedicated before to update in testing (https://lists.debian.org/debian-testing-changes/) and read each report if it's about delicate programs. Update with blind eyes it's very dangerous in testing! Otherwise there is the stable version. > I see I got a new systemd service. but this can't properly mount my LVM > partitions and always land me into the maintenance mode. Though can mount > then the lvm partitions manually but no graphics, no virtual terminal. Then I > purged systemd which automatically installed sysvinit and rebooted... still > same result. I have never seen any debian netinstall choose the systemd option as default, I get the impression that perhaps you have decided to install systemd manually.is it right ? > Installed systemd again , no change, BUT WAIT. if I execute "exit" > command from maintenance, it put me into normal graphical mode. > OK, now I got it few times... first it put me into maintenance after boot, > then exit command puts me into mode 2 with all LVM mounted properly. You could try to restart again from netinstall cd and the next time not install systemd until there will not an official comunication. this is my advice trusted. Sysv init is still alive and it works very well. Cheers. Carlo. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAF-vDa-jfymFef=DoqJ8xhUzMVN0Zbe-ytSHUatGn=xsq2x...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Perfect Jessie is something like this...
Στις 05-11-2014 03:44, Jyri J. Virkki έγραψε: ... As long as debian continues to enable everyone (systemd lovers and opponents) equally, everyone wins. that's not going to happen, IMHO. I don't think you are familiar with that email from systemd project leader at LKML back at 2010 [1], do you ? : Quote : "The plan with systemd is to make it manage both the system and the sessions. It's along the lines of what launchd does on MacOS: one instance for the system, another one for the user, because starting and supervising a system service and a session service are actually very very similar things." Now I'm wondering. Is the systemd a kind of Trojan horse to "fork" Debian from "within" ? ( I'm joking ) [1] https://lkml.org/lkml/2010/11/16/482 Regards, -- Dimitrios Chr. Ioannidis -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/d44c73a09804a8c7dc08cd84910d3...@nephelae.eu
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
How is this not directly Debian realated? Certainly a discussion is "on topic" if it's among users of Debian about Debian; whether they will continue to use it or not; whether their decissions are based in technical, political, phisioplical, or other grounds; what the alternatives are; and how they compare and contrast agaist the features of Debian. Would you please explain why all that discussion about Debian is not "on topic"? It's certainly much more "on topic" than your constant one line quips that attempt to silence everyone that doesn't share your opinions. - Original Message - > From: "Lisi Reisz" > To: debian-user@lists.debian.org > Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2014 11:38:04 AM > Subject: Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing > So this is nothing to do with Debian. > > Lisi > > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org > Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201411051638.04313.lisi.re...@gmail.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/57042207.1319.1415223684832.javamail.zim...@infinitebubble.com
Re: Systemd and Unix
On 11/05/2014 06:30 AM, Gary Dale wrote: On 05/11/14 12:54 AM, Jimmy Johnson wrote: On 11/04/2014 08:06 PM, Gary Dale wrote: I've got a problem with sysvinit on one machine running Wheezy.. Would you mind telling us what the problem is? I already did a couple of days ago on this list. Got no responses so I filed a bug report. The problem is the /etc/init.d/networking script never completes, which prevents a server from booting. All the subsequent scripts are waiting for this one to complete before proceeding. Probable cause /ect/network/interfaces is not configured and is a development/release problem and is not Wheezy specific problem. I've seen the problem a few times lately while systemd has been in development and I just fix it. https://wiki.debian.org/NetworkConfiguration -- Jimmy Johnson Debian Squeeze - KDE 4.4.5 - AMD64 - EXT4 at sda11 Registered Linux User #380263 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a988b.4030...@gmail.com
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
Folks, Let's not feed the fanboys, trolls, and other forms of obnoxious folk.. If they want to bomb this topic with garbage, let's just use our delete keys and kill files, and try to keep this one on-topic, with as little extraneous noise as possible. Miles Fidelman Jason C. Taylor wrote: How is this not directly Debian realated? Certainly a discussion is "on topic" if it's among users of Debian about Debian; whether they will continue to use it or not; whether their decissions are based in technical, political, phisioplical, or other grounds; what the alternatives are; and how they compare and contrast agaist the features of Debian. Would you please explain why all that discussion about Debian is not "on topic"? It's certainly much more "on topic" than your constant one line quips that attempt to silence everyone that doesn't share your opinions. - Original Message - From: "Lisi Reisz" To: debian-user@lists.debian.org Sent: Wednesday, November 5, 2014 11:38:04 AM Subject: Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing So this is nothing to do with Debian. Lisi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/201411051638.04313.lisi.re...@gmail.com -- In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is. Yogi Berra -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545a9e8c.1060...@meetinghouse.net
Re: Mount order after systemd update
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 10:00:03 +0100 Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: > That's what you get when your first recourse is Google rather than > the manual that comes with your software on your computer. (-: The > manual pages that you should be reading are: >* man -S 5 crypttab # > (http://freedesktop.org./software/systemd/man/crypttab.html) >* man -S 8 systemd-cryptsetup-generator # > (http://freedesktop.org./software/systemd/man/systemd-cryptsetup-generator.html) >* man -S 8 systemd-cryptse...@.service.html # > (http://freedesktop.org./software/systemd/man/systemd-cryptse...@.service.html) Seriously, I doubt that any ordinary user finds this before migration, i.e. when you do not have installed systemd, have you got those man pages on your system? Most important, being able to boot from an (encrypted) hard drive seems crucial to me. What about adding information to the Wiki at https://wiki.debian.org/systemd > After reading them, you'll know that you should be finding out about > password agents: >* http://freedesktop.org./wiki/Software/systemd/PasswordAgents/ > > Plymouth is right there at the top of the list. I will try it out. > Yes, the plymouth documentation is from the Use The Source Luke > school of badly written documentation. You have to read the > developer doco to even find a mention of the word "password", and > even that's almost incidental. Here's the source, Luke, for what This does not increase my confidence in its stability though. Martin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105234544.7dd42fa7@Fuddel
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
On Wed, 5 Nov 2014 16:41:24 -0500 (EST) "Jason C. Taylor" wrote: > How is this not directly Debian realated? Certainly a discussion is "on > topic" if it's among users of Debian about Debian; whether they will continue > to use it or not; whether their decissions are based in technical, political, > , or other grounds; what the alternatives are; and how they compare and > contrast agaist the features of Debian. Would you please explain why all > that discussion about Debian is not "on topic"? I am impressed with Google: I searched on phisioplical and it told me it had been used, only once, in your posting of 59 minutes ago ! https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2014/11/msg00267.html Cheers, Ron. -- In jedem echten Manne steckt ein Kind, und das will spielen. -- Friedrich Nietzsche -- http://www.olgiati-in-paraguay.org -- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105200433.5b106...@ron.cerrocora.org
Re: Mount order after systemd update
On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 10:00:03 +0100 Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote: > Plymouth is right there at the top of the list. Since there seems to be little choice of password agents, I tried it out. Now update-initramfs fails: # update-initramfs -u -v [...] Adding binary /bin/plymouth Adding binary /sbin/plymouthd Adding binary /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/plymouth//text.so Adding binary /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/plymouth//details.so E: /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks/plymouth failed with return 1. Removing /boot/initrd.img-3.16-3-686-pae.dpkg-bak update-initramfs: failed for /boot/initrd.img-3.16-3-686-pae with 1. Any ideas how to fix this? Martin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141106000856.1a84443e@Fuddel
[wheezy] Pairing/connecting a bluetooth mouse
Hello, I am experiencing trouble getting my bluetooth mouse to pair with my machine in wheezy. I have tried the following commands hidd --connect Also tried bluez-test-input connect dmesg shows a succesful pair and connect [90666.443913] hid-generic 0005:03F0:024C.0020: unknown main item tag 0x0 [90666.444019] input: Broadcom Bluetooth Wireless Mouse as /devices/pci:00/:00:14.0/usb1/1-7/1-7:1.0/bluetooth/hci0/hci0:38/0005:03F0:024C.0020/input/input41 [90666.444556] hid-generic 0005:03F0:024C.0020: input,hidraw3: BLUETOOTH HID v1.03 Mouse [Broadcom Bluetooth Wireless Mouse] on c4:d9:87:82:dd:58 However the mouse does not work. I have paired a bluetooth keyboard, which works. I am using a backported kernel 3.14-0.bpo.2-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.14.15-2~bpo70+1. Using the backported kernel to fix a audio stutter issue that happens on the Intel NUC hardware I am using. Any ideas on what I should be trying to figure this out ? Thanks, Prashant -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87fb5fac4e9282e07c490dcb563f7...@mykolab.com
Re: forks, derivatives, other distros - what are you thinking/doing
This *is* going to be Yet Another Systemd Thread. This *is* debian-related and on-topic, since it's about what its users think they should do next about (not|using) the distro and how. This has a purpose, i hope? 'Cos you can sit and wait if you tihnk it's gonna change the next release of Debian. But what the heck, i haven't dumped my bit into the systemd pool yet. > 1. What are your issues, reasons for doing so - general and/or specific? I like(d) Debian for its philosophy, apt, stability and the huge repository, to name a few. I'm not a distro-hopper, i've been using Debian for over a decade. Big hair ball is bad: systemd is replacing too many things too monolithicaly; i don't like the idea of having a lot of important services in one PID. Logs becoming binary files?! Ew. A sane approach would be to improve the bits that neet improving, like the (sadly named) uselessd, openrc, etc. This has been a good approach for ages and i don't believe in changing it just because "it's so last tuesday". So why not putting some effort into changing those components instead? Choice: i couldn't care less about systemd if it weren't for a slight problem: i won't have a choice anymore. I dislike gnome and kde, i have fluxbox and a ton of others; i dislike emacs, i have vim; etc. I dislike systemd, now what? I'm left with no system. Dictatorial decisions: why such a change? Did users have a say? If so, where and how? If not, why not? Obviously this goes beyong emacs vs vim - the worst blind are the ones who refuse to see this, yet whoever decided this doesn't seem to give a shit. I see too many Big Companies backing this up and it bothers me. I thought Debian would be imune to this kind of politics. What about all the stuff that will depend on systemd? And why so much effort on preparing the arrival of systemd and little to none on making sure software works with or without it (like -nox stuff)? Debian lost its philosophy and it's a shame, it's one of a very few distros i thought would be resillient to this. Why are so many big names being so dismissive about it is also strange. And the impact it'll have on all the Debian-based distros? > 2. What are you considering, evaluating, or otherwise thinking about? I have one server running stable. It's probably not statisticaly significant for those up high. I'll hold on to wheezy for as long as i can, then, dunno. I'd welcome a fork starting with the last wheezy release. How much of Debian is going to be vendor-locked by systemd? How much of upstream wants to change their code for both scenarios? These are interesting questions. I'd learn the innards of apt packaging and chip in. Maybe create the non-systemd branch alongside of non-free :) Gentoo is not going to change to systemd soon, it seems. You can install binaries instead of compilling and i think the benefits of compiling (once) outweight the drawback of how long it takes. Talking about compiling i'm considering LFS on a VM, mostly to learn about an attempt at bringing some order into the chaos of the file tree and to dive into source code (basicaly what LFS is for). I only need a very basic system for my server and i already compile the webserver anyway. No other means would give me more control, fun and pain. Slackware's not moving to systemd anytime soon - apparently -, and it's the oldest running distro. If the future of linux distros is dictatorship, i'd rather have my next distro controlled by a benevolent one. It doesn't have apt, but i could give it a shot. I use it at work but not as intensely. OpenBSD takes a while to get used to, their list only has RTFM on their vocab and i wouldn't consider it for desktop, but it's on my list. OpenIndiana, or whichever Solaris fork is out there also is on the list, mostly because of ZFS (ZoL seems stable though) and dtrace. > 3. What other options/initiatives are you aware of that you've discarded or > otherwise are not considering, and why? Any distro backed-up by a big company, like Red Hat or Canonical. It seems as though as soon as they start to grow too much they get lost and drunk on power and money. Remember that nifty search engine? You don't have to agree with me. I don't have to bother replying either. By then maybe i'll have unsubscribed, i'll probably be busy with LFS anyway. It'll be interesting to see distrowatch a year from now. -- Cheers, Nuno Magalhães -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141105234011.3...@eu.ipp.pt
Re: Howto add a vnc URL handler to Icedove?
Scott Ferguson writes: > 1. while the link displays as show above, in the HTML (subset used in > email) it's actually a mailto link... > > 2. I've tried adding to Icedove about:config:- > ;a new string value of "network.protocol-handler.app.vnc" with the value > "$processingScript %U" > ;a new boolean value "network.protocol-handler.expose.vnc" with the > value "true" > > But I suspect they'll never be called as Icedove treats the link as "mailto" Well, what about changing how 'mailto' URIs are handled? You could specify that 'mailto' URIs should be handled by a script. That script can examine the URI and, if it begins with the scheme name 'vnc', does the setup you require, but would otherwise calls the default 'mailto' handler. Might that do what you need? (i've set up Iceweasel to call a script for 'mailto' links, so that i can click on them and have a template email message open in Emacs, which i can then edit and send.) Alexis. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/878ujpuhs1@gmail.com
Re: Multiple desktops in lightdm?
On Tue, 04 Nov 2014 14:19:52 -0500, Gary Dale wrote: > On 03/11/14 11:20 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: >> I've been using lightdm, and it more or less works. >> >> About a decade ago, on another ancient Linux, I could get multiple >> desktops, selected by ctl-alt-f7 through f12. Is there some way to set >> up something like that with lightdm? >> >> Just being able to dynamically add another desktop would be good, >> actually; they don't have to all be there at boot. >> >> In case it makes a difference, I'm running squeeze with the traditional >> sysv init. I use icewm and fvwm as window managers and do not run >> gnome or kde. Not that some of those libraries aren't there anyway. >> >> -- hendrik >> > Are you asking for multiple virtual desktops or the ability to log on > multiple times to the same machine? I want to be able to log on multiple times, simultaneously, to the same machine, with the same physical keyboard and boutse and screen, but with different user ids. So that when I'm logged in as myself, and my friend comes by who wants to use the machine for a minute, I can let him log in as another, independent user, without me having to log out first. I hope that's clear. -- hendrik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/m3erkl$tsm$1...@ger.gmane.org
Re: Mount order after systemd update
Le Thu, 6 Nov 2014 00:08:56 +0100, Martin Manns a écrit : > On Mon, 03 Nov 2014 10:00:03 +0100 > Jonathan de Boyne Pollard > wrote: > > > Plymouth is right there at the top of the list. > > Since there seems to be little choice of password agents, I tried it > out. Now update-initramfs fails: > > # update-initramfs -u -v > [...] > Adding binary /bin/plymouth > Adding binary /sbin/plymouthd > Adding binary /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/plymouth//text.so > Adding binary /usr/lib/i386-linux-gnu/plymouth//details.so > E: /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks/plymouth failed with return 1. > Removing /boot/initrd.img-3.16-3-686-pae.dpkg-bak > update-initramfs: failed for /boot/initrd.img-3.16-3-686-pae with 1. > > Any ideas how to fix this? Which version of plymouth is that? Did you changed the default theme or something? In /usr/share/initramfs-tools/hooks/plymouth, could you add "set -x" just after the already existing "set -e" and try again? the output should be more verbose. Laurent Bigonville -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-user-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141106044805.5e61e...@fornost.bigon.be
