Re: [Coapp-developers] Bundling x64 and x86 binaries in the same library package?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:38 PM, William A. Rowe Jr.  wrote:
> On 4/16/2010 9:59 AM, Garrett Serack wrote:
>> For Library packages (static and dynamic) I’m wondering if we shouldn’t
>> just put both variants in the same package—still installing the WinSxS
>> binaries appropriately, and putting the .lib files in the correct spot.
>>
>> This would actually conserve disk-space, since the x64 and x86 versions
>> of the packages could share include & doc directories, and we could use
>> symlinks for that.
>
> Don't go there.
>
> This is the source of most OS/X pain; the fact that Apple has stacked the
> single unified binaries.  Many open source include files simply don't and
> can't cope with this, and many patches that would enable this on OS/X are
> rejected out of hand because the model is broken with respect to particular
> open source projects :)

Putting both variants in one package doesn't mean both variants should
use the same include files, does it?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Bundling x64 and x86 binaries in the same library package?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Well, that was the idea...
>
> I suppose that typical config.h files might differ between the two, but other 
> than that, I can't think of a case where the header files would be different.
>
>
> But, it's not a *requirement*, just a 
> lack-of-caffeine-induced-delirium-idea...

It should be possible to have both variants installed at the same time (IMO).

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Bundling x64 and x86 binaries in the same library package?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 6:11 PM, William A. Rowe Jr.  wrote:
> On 4/16/2010 11:07 AM, Olaf van der Spek wrote:
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Garrett Serack  
>> wrote:
>>> Well, that was the idea...
>>>
>>> I suppose that typical config.h files might differ between the two, but 
>>> other than that, I can't think of a case where the header files would be 
>>> different.
>>>
>>>
>>> But, it's not a *requirement*, just a 
>>> lack-of-caffeine-induced-delirium-idea...
>>
>> It should be possible to have both variants installed at the same time (IMO).
>
> Under Program Files/CoApp and Program Files (x86)/CoApp?  Or how do you 
> envision
> such parallel installs?

That sounds like an (implementation) detail. I'm not sure what the
rules for PF and PF x86 are, but I'm sure something can be worked out.

Speaking about Program Files, is there a goal to support per-user
installs (so not requiring admin access)?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Bundling x64 and x86 binaries in the same library package?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 6:13 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Um, both can be *concurrently* installed, they have different target 
> directories;
>
> It sounds like sharing anything between them isn't worth it; I'd rather not 
> have to over-engineer multi-arch config.h files, and the ilk.
>
> So, nevermind. :D

If both can be *concurrently* installed, what's the problem with
putting both in a single package?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Bundling x64 and x86 binaries in the same library package?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 6:31 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> I'm not aware of a way to have user installs of WinSXS libraries. By 
> definition, they are system level.
>
> However, we could just require the installer client to be installed and setup 
> as admin, and have it run its service at a higher level, so shared libraries 
> can be installed (which aren't end-user installed anyway), which would allow 
> lower-rights installs of applications themselves.

Sounds like a potential securty hole.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Bundling x64 and x86 binaries in the same library package?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 6:48 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> And really, that's how Windows Update works anyway... we might as well learn 
> from that.

WU doesn't install code published by third-parties, does it?

> Without that, we'd be forced to Admin-only installs of shared libraries, 
> since there is no way to handle WinSxS without it.
>
> The install client will be doing package verification before it installs it, 
> and it can limit its admin-level install to shared libraries (the only thing 
> that needs it).

What if such a library is compromised? Won't it affect other users on
the system?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Bundling x64 and x86 binaries in the same library package?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> What specifically do you mean by compromised?

Suppose it contains a trojan.

> If you mean that a package is published and someone is trying to pass it off 
> as someone else's package, well that's why we have a requirement for a 
> publisher to digitally signing the code.  If they lose control of their 
> signing keys, we laugh and all code published with their cert after the loss 
> of control can be killed by revoking the certificate, and/or implement a 
> killbit system (since we can identify WinSxS libraries uniquely).

So you don't just depend on a library, you depend on a library
published by a specific publisher?

> Actually, we should probably build a killbit system regardless, as it can 
> assist in the defective case too.
>
> And, yes WU can install drivers and code from third parties; which is why 
> they require any binaries passing thru WU to be signed and run thru a bunch 
> of validation tools.

But as a user on a system I can't get WU to install a binary I feed it, can I?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Common library paths

[Olaf van der Spek]

2010/4/16 Pierre Joye :
> I'm not sure the development files should end in a common directory.
> As it has been mentioned in this thread, it will not be possible to
> have multiple versions of a library. However I'm really not sure that
> the development files and the distribution package should follow the
> same rules. They have very different goals.

> Having a common (or global) include directory can also introduce
> problems. They cannot be solved without introducing other rules
> (version numbering rules for ABI/API compatibility, add extra
> directory like include/zlib12/). But these rules may force developers
> to modify their code for windows only, the #include part. That's a
> small change but yet another one.

IMO changing includes is not an option.

> I would rather put them in the application directory instead and add
> the right path to the include/lib paths (or copy/symlink, depending on
> the developer needs or configuration).

What is the reason we're talking about paths already? Isn't this an
implementation detail?

Olaf

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[Coapp-developers] VC project generator / how-to

[Olaf van der Spek]

Is a create a lib how-to available?
One that says what files should be generated, how those should be named, etc?

Lots of libs come with outdated .vcproj files that are usually hand
made and lacking some configurations.
A project generator sounds like a good idea.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] VC project generator / how-to

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Mon, Apr 19, 2010 at 11:49 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Not done yet, but in the pipeline.
>
> My first priority is to set the specification for what the packages look 
> like, and then move on to making tools that assist developers in making 
> packages.

Isn't creating packages way more complex than creating the VC project
file required to build?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] VC project generator / how-to

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Pierre Joye  wrote:
> hi,
>
> On Tue, Apr 20, 2010 at 5:04 PM, Garrett Serack  
> wrote:
>> I wouldn’t say "way more"...
>>
>> But knowing what the target is, we can build the tools to get there.
>>
>> Hence:
>>   - Figure out what the packages will look like
>>   - build the tools to get from [current source] to [finished packages]
>
> I would suggest to focus first on getting a finished package from
> binaries (using some definition data). Doing so will allow a lot of
> project to test the packages solution easily without having to change
> their build infrastructure or methods.

Other projects don't have any Windows build infrastructure. Having a
way for them to generate the VC project files such that others can
easily build the packages would be more handy for them.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Thinking abotu testing CoApp's tools.

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> [recycling back to the list … make sure you use reply-all :) ]

Might be a good idea to setup the list such that this is the default
(via reply-to header).

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Portable application deployment

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Apr 21, 2010 at 10:45 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Not really. Well--maybe--but not in the way you think, and likely this won't 
> happen for a bit.
>
> Portable applications rely on a total lack of shared libraries; rather the 
> complete autonomous packaging of everything needed to accomplish a particular 
> task, and without installing anything.

What stops one from just linking everything statically?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

Libs: bzip2, z, jpeg, png, ogg, vorbis, boost, DX SDK, Windows SDK.

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:

>
>
> Howdy folks,
>
>
>
> I’m doing some initial work for long term planning today—really this will
> help drive my focus over the next year or two.
>
> Assuming that CoApp produces a beautifully functioning package manager and
> ecosystem, what open source packages would you like to see made available
> for Windows via CoApp?
>
>
>
> I’ve stated before that my personal focus is around PHP, Apache and Python
> (courtesy of the folks kind enough to pay for my time on the project).
>
>
>
> What would you like? What software or libraries would you find compelling?
> What is #1 in your list? On the server? On the client? In the cloud?
>
> What is the priority of that (say on a scale of one to five stars)?
>
>
>
> Feel free to reply here or tweet your answers tagged with #CoApp
> #PackageIdea
>
>
>
>
>
> [image: Description: fearthecowboy] 
>
> *Garrett* *Serack* | Microsoft's Open Source Software Developer | *Microsoft
> Corporation
> Office*:(425)706-7939   *email*/*
> messenger*: garre...@microsoft.com
> *blog*: http://fearthecowboy.com  *
> twitter*: @fearthecowboy 
>
> *I don't make the software you use; I make the software you use better on
> Windows.***
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 6:23 PM, Pierre Joye  wrote:
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 6:20 PM, Ted Bullock  wrote:
>
>> There are some other things too, for instance there is a bunch of
>> functionality missing from the Microsoft C runtime such as asprintf. It
>> would be nice to have an additional CoApp C library package which
>> provides missing C library functionality, and other common functions
>> like strlcpy and strlcat.
>
> Do you mean to create a posix/BSD layer? :) It may not be a good idea.
> Especially for these functions are they are known covered by the
> standard (using other names but with the same level of safety).

What standard?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Pierre Joye  wrote:
>> Never happens on Linux, and isn't (forced) to be happening here.
>
> Windows is not linux, it has its constraints (and advantages) that
> force developers to actually do the builds as well. Whether these
> binaries will be packaged or distributed by them or 3rd party (some
> CoApp structure for example) is an open question at this stage.

Why can't building be done by a third party?

> However, I'm trying to get a clear idea about the goals of CoApp from
> a packaging and distribution point of view. That alone will need a
> huge amount of discussions, tests, compromises, etc. before it gets
> adopted by the projects (read: > 1 year). Everything else is rather a
> low priority to my eyes, especially the developer things like build
> tools, configuration helpers or unix/bsd layers, where solutions exist
> already. My worry is to see CoApp focuses too much on the latter
> rather than on the packages/distros part.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:02 PM, Pierre Joye  wrote:
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Olaf van der Spek  
> wrote:
>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 6:52 PM, Pierre Joye  wrote:
>>>> Never happens on Linux, and isn't (forced) to be happening here.
>>>
>>> Windows is not linux, it has its constraints (and advantages) that
>>> force developers to actually do the builds as well. Whether these
>>> binaries will be packaged or distributed by them or 3rd party (some
>>> CoApp structure for example) is an open question at this stage.
>>
>> Why can't building be done by a third party?
>
> Why would we not support 3rd party binaries of our software?

I haven't said you had to support them.
I also haven't said first-party builds are forbidden.

> No control of what they do (custom patches), different compilers
> version with different bugs which have not been caught (or can't) by
> our CI/QA processes. Signed binaries using companies signature. etc.

Maybe CoApp could provide build infrastructure so packages can be
build automatically in a clean and known environment.

> That's why PHP does not support 3rd party builds for example, so does
> many projects with linux packages. It is also the reasons why all
> distributions have their own issues tracker as most of the bugs are
> actually not a bug in the upstream version. I don't think CoApp can do
> that in the long run on Windows.

Who said CoApp won't support first-party builds?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:19 PM, William A. Rowe Jr.  wrote:
> On 5/5/2010 12:22 PM, Pierre Joye wrote:
>> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Olaf van der Spek  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Who said CoApp won't support first-party builds?
>>
>> Nobody, I call that a discussion.
>
> CoApp the distribution wouldn't be likely to trust third party builds, but 
> build
> from documented/legible source code.
>
> CoApp the project is unlikely to "convince" the projects that this specific 
> set
> of build options is the "one right way", and (speaking from 10+ years of 
> experience)
> most are unlikely to adopt CoApp conventions.  And why should they?

What kind of build options are we talking about?
For some projects this might be a problem, but I think there are
enough projects for which this will not be a problem.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:45 PM, William A. Rowe Jr.  wrote:
> On 5/5/2010 2:41 PM, Olaf van der Spek wrote:
>>
>> What kind of build options are we talking about?
>> For some projects this might be a problem, but I think there are
>> enough projects for which this will not be a problem.
>
> Optimization flags, availability of .pdb debugging symbols (e.g. equivalent of
> foo-debug linux/bsd distro package variants), etc.

I'm not sure I understand the problem.
Different projects might use different optimizations, so what?

> For the vast majority of projects, this will be a problem, and you have to 
> look
> no further than the patch sets of any distro to be convinced.

> Which means, simply, that projects friendly to recommendations are warmly 
> received
> as the exceptions, while CoApp needs to streamline itself to handling the vast
> majority of non-responsive projects, or who are otherwise of other minds on 
> the
> topic of building on win32.
>
> CoApp seeks to be one very specific way to do it.  If it happens to work for 
> the
> upstream project, wonderful :)  If not, it's open source, and when it's broke 
> we
> get to glue both pieces together.

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:01 PM, Pierre Joye  wrote:
> hi,
>
> On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 9:45 PM, William A. Rowe Jr.  wrote:
>
>> CoApp seeks to be one very specific way to do it.  If it happens to work for 
>> the
>> upstream project, wonderful :)  If not, it's open source, and when it's 
>> broke we
>> get to glue both pieces together.
>
> That's what I would like to avoid as much as I can. At least for two things:
>
> - naming convention (static vs dynamic .lib for example)
> - standard binary packages
>
> If it fails for these two, then right, CoApp will be just another
> project that brings nothing to upstream developers. And I really hope
> that won't be the case :)
>
> Except indeed if the CoApp goal is to be a distribution-like system.
> But then I would not have much interest to participate.

Why not?

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 5:56 PM, Tom Hanrahan  wrote:
> A *nix utility may be a good idea anyway, but we have programs in place for
> developers who need/want a copy of Windows for their test and development
> work.  Anyone in the OSTC (Garrett, me, others) can help you get the
> resources or access you need.

I think OS developers want to minimize their dependencies on non-OS stuff. ;)

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 7:27 PM, Rivera, Rafael  wrote:
> There are also fully functional 30/90/180+ day trials freely downloadable.
> No excuse really.

Trialware is not a (long term) solution.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 3:20 AM, Trent Nelson  wrote:
>> >> What kind of build options are we talking about?
>> >> For some projects this might be a problem, but I think there are
>> >> enough projects for which this will not be a problem.
>> >
>> > Optimization flags, availability of .pdb debugging symbols (e.g.
>> > equivalent of foo-debug linux/bsd distro package variants), etc.
>>
>> I'm not sure I understand the problem.
>> Different projects might use different optimizations, so what?
>
> Bill definitely has a valid point.  You'd be surprised at what kind of crazy 
> builds you can end up with for some open source projects when you attempt to 
> build them on Windows with their out-of-the-box settings (assuming their 
> release even compiles on Windows; OpenSSL has the odd release every now and 
> then that just flat out doesn't compile out-of-the-box on Windows).

Bill?

> I remember how much trouble I had trying to get the out-of-the-box Windows 
> builds of BerkeleyDB and TclTk to work with Python.  BerkeleyDB was using the 
> most esoteric compiler and linker flags that I've ever come across, and the 
> resulting binary, especially in 64-bit builds, just flat out wasn't suitable 
> for linking against.  I mean, it would link, 'cause the API was compatible at 
> the source level, but you'd get the strangest crashes as soon as you 
> attempted to call anything in that library.  TclTk wasn't much better -- and 
> SQLite was problematic too, now that I think of it.

What is the reason for those weird flags?
-- 
Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What packages do you want to see?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, May 7, 2010 at 10:38 AM, Trent Nelson  wrote:
>> > I remember how much trouble I had trying to get the out-of-the-
>> box Windows builds of BerkeleyDB and TclTk to work with
>> Python.  BerkeleyDB was using the most esoteric compiler and
>> linker flags that I've ever come across, and the resulting binary,
>> especially in 64-bit builds, just flat out wasn't suitable for
>> linking against.  I mean, it would link, 'cause the API was
>> compatible at the source level, but you'd get the strangest
>> crashes as soon as you attempted to call anything in that
>> library.  TclTk wasn't much better -- and SQLite was problematic
>> too, now that I think of it.
>>
>> What is the reason for those weird flags?
>
> I couldn't find any technical reason behind the weird flags.  I just put it 
> down to Windows unfamiliarity, or lack of Windows-savvy developers on the 
> projects.

Then it's likely those projects are willing to change their flags.

I think it's also caused by the lack of proper make/project formats/files.
The input should be something you can write by hand, without needing
copy/paste. It should only contain the bare minimum.
.vcproj files contain way more than that and nobody is writing them by hand.
-- 
Olaf

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[Coapp-developers] Code?

[Olaf van der Spek]

Hey,

Did everybody have a good flight? Turns out I was back just in time,
the volcano ashes were over the Netherlands again today.

Is there any code in the VCS yet? If so, I can't find it.

-- 
Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:15 AM, Rivera, Rafael
 wrote:
> Hey Olaf,
>
> Glad to hear you made it home in time! I think last we all spoke, we
> needed a license before code could be committed. I'm sure that's on
> Garrett's long TODO list.

Ok. I remember C was chosen for the engine. What's the rationale
behind this decision?
C++ seems to make more sense to me. It has no problems with safe
strings and memory/resource management.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:23 AM, Elizabeth M Smith
 wrote:
> As we discussed during the summit and is mentioned on the wiki:

Ah, found it.

> Few dependencies
> Fast
> Small
> Binding facilities for most high level languages are common
>
> The ability to tie a C library into anything and everything is the biggest
> reason to use C over C++, using and binding to C++ libraries (especially in
> most languages - they tend to be written in C) is a real headache - actually
> beyond a headache, most times it's just a recipe for failure.

C++ can do C bindings as well, can't it? Our bindings should certainly be C.
Doesn't C++ share the other advantages?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:41 AM, Ted Bullock  wrote:
> On Mon, May 17, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Jonathan Ben-Joseph  
> wrote:
>> This is because C truly is the least common denominator when it comes to
>> language binding, almost every mainstream language can call directly into C
>> shared libraries without much of any boilerplate code (see P/Invoke in .NET
>> or ctypes in Python for example).
>
> Yes this is precisely why.  Also, we want to be able to bundle it into
> packages so that if someone chooses to install a package outside of
> the standard tools (administrative installs for example), CoApp will
> be there and be able to get all the dependencies.

Wasn't the idea to include a tiny DLL inside each MSI that is able to
download the engine on demand?
That tiny DLL is not the same as the entire engine.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 1:38 AM, Elizabeth M Smith
 wrote:
>> C++ can do C bindings as well, can't it? Our bindings should certainly be
>> C.
>> Doesn't C++ share the other advantages?
>>
>> Olaf
>>
>
> What?  I mean binding coapp to other higher level languages primarily
> written in C.  Perl, Python, PHP, Lua, D etc.
>
> and if we write it in C - yes a C++ binding would be easy as well.

Obviously our API and ABI will be C. This doesn't mean the
implementation has to be C as well, right?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 4:50 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Yes, we'd like to have a tiny bootstrap DLL that gets us the engine DLL, and 
> the bootstrap can ship in every MSI.
>
> The bootstrap will be VERY small ( < 2048 bytes ).
>
> The engine DLL we'd like to keep as small as possible too.

Aren't you the one that said bandwidth is cheap? :p

Why is 50 k on the engine DLL so important?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> If I thought that we were gaining large leaps in productivity for 50k, I 
> wouldn't have too much of a problem with it.

I'm used to C++, I think others are used to C. Having manual string
and memory handling isn't my ideal.

I'm fine with C though, I was just wondering why we chose it.

> But realistically what does C++ buy us that C doesn't? I'm just saying the 
> delta between C and C++ isn't that much (classes, exceptions, templates, 
> overloading) and we're not dying for those features.
>
> I'm actually thinking on the other end a bit. What if we can tighten our 
> belts to < 25k for the core? Would we even bother with a bootstrap dll? Could 
> we get away with embedding the CoApp core with everything? Even if the core 
> chubs out to 60k... perhaps we'd still consider binding that directly into 
> target MSIs.

What's the advantage?
Unless CoApp engine isn't frequently updated, wouldn't it get old
pretty quickly?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Creating Projects in Launchpad.

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:43 AM, Adam Baxter  wrote:

> How does Ubuntu do all of their packages?
>
> I don't think they need to all have the co- prefix because by being linked
> to the CoApp project we know the context of them.
>
> Namespace conflicts?

Olaf
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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, May 19, 2010 at 12:16 AM, Adam Baxter  wrote:
> 50k multiplied by how many downloads/packages? ;)

This is about the engine, not about the tiny action DLL that'll be in
each packet.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] [specs] Pre and post install actions?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 4:36 PM, Rob Mensching  wrote:
> Note that the game explorer install/uninstall/repair/upgrade/patch/rollback
> in the WiX toolset is actually implemented by a Custom Action. We call it
> one of the "WiX Standard Custom Actions".
> It's hard to write Custom Actions correctly and people often use them
> improperly which leads to Garrett's comment.

I think Garett wants to avoid packages creating their own Custom Actions.
Our tools could generate the custom actions with the packages asking for them.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Anyone with OData experience out there?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Trent Nelson  wrote:
> Now, this is the point that my 15 minutes of experience with OData let me
> down.  The C# approach for whipping up both metadata and data seems, er, to
> not be particularly flexible.

Why? Code to read the data from (XML) file should be doable.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Dear Microsoft, Thanks!

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 4:20 PM, Trent Nelson  wrote:
>
> Slightly belated, but I'd just like to thank Microsoft and Garrett for the
> CoApp event that's just past.  It's fantastic to see a company like
> Microsoft covering the (very sizable) cost for an event like this.  It was
> great to attend and I know everyone had a great time and found the
> experience wholeheartedly worthwhile!

I'd like to thank Garett as well. Not just for the event, but for
starting this project!
Getting even simple stuff like libz and libjpeg to build on Windows
(including static builds) has been a pain for decades and it's finally
getting solved.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Anyone with OData experience out there?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 5:57 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Just build a sql server database. It's not that heavy!

We could also use Postgres to stay with the open source spirit. :p

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] The need for -dev packages

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 6:07 PM, Trent Nelson  wrote:
>
> I vaguely recall a brief discussion about -dev derivatives of open source
> packages during the event, i.e. python-2.6.1.1-dev.  I think the consensus
> was that they weren't required, with -src packages being preferable.

No, the idea was to put the headers inside the lib/app package. So
they get installed by default.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Anyone with OData experience out there?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 6:10 PM, Trevor Dennis  wrote:
>> We could also use Postgres to stay with the open source spirit. :p

> I'd second this motion. It's BSD based and hopefully would not cost us
> anything if Canonical can
> host it for us.
>
> SQL Server might be a gift from Microsoft today, but what about in 3 or 5
> years?
>
> Either way, we will have to look at the libraries to see which is usable
> from the CoApp engine core.  I'm not
> worried about C# since the Ngpsql library is out there.

Isn't this about server-side stuff?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Anyone with OData experience out there?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 6:14 PM, Elizabeth Smith
 wrote:
> Yes - this is the repository - where we're storing the coapp stuff... but
> this should also be implementable by others (in other ways) as long as they
> allow access in a standard way.  So it doesn't matter if we implement things
> in C# and sql server today.
>
> and in three years put it on apache and postgresl ;)

Don't forget Reply All... ;)

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Anyone with OData experience out there?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> /facepalm
>
> I think we'll select technologies based on what makes sense technologically. 
> If we're writing the server part in C# anyway, SQL Server is quick, fast and 
> well, cheap. (I have pull with the company that makes it)

I'm not sure, but again, I think some (open source) devs don't want to
depend on proprietary tech.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] [specs] Pre and post install actions?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 9:47 PM, Rob Mensching  wrote:
> Everything in the core WiX namespace does map cleanly to the Windows
> Installer layer. The Game Explorer stuff you mentioned comes from an
> extension because the Windows Installer does not support Game Explorer
> natively (and thus a Custom Action).
>
> The fact that you couldn't tell fills me with much happiness (some might say
> glee) because the goal is to make it all seem very seamless. 

CoApp should do the same. It shouldn't matter whether something is
supported by MSI natively or whether it's implemented via a custom
action.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] [specs] Pre and post install actions?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Rob Mensching  wrote:
> Agreed.
>
> I've also mentioned to Garrett a couple times that it would be *awesome* if
> all (most?) custom actions were written generally and contributed to the WiX
> toolset so that others can take advantage of the addition even if they
> aren't related to CoApp. For example, creating/deleting soft links are not
> supported by the Windows Installer nor WiX extension today but it would be
> very cool if it did. Hey, do you think CoApp will need soft link support
> during install?
>
> I can dream, I suppose. 

Some kind of linking comes in handy to avoid storing multiple physical
copies of files that don't change between versions.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] [specs] Pre and post install actions?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 9:54 PM, Rob Mensching  wrote:
> Agreed.
>
> I've also mentioned to Garrett a couple times that it would be *awesome* if
> all (most?) custom actions were written generally and contributed to the WiX
> toolset so that others can take advantage of the addition even if they
> aren't related to CoApp. For example, creating/deleting soft links are not
> supported by the Windows Installer nor WiX extension today but it would be
> very cool if it did. Hey, do you think CoApp will need soft link support
> during install?
>
> I can dream, I suppose. 

Some kind of linking comes in handy to avoid storing multiple physical
copies of files that don't change between versions.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 10:14 PM, Rivera, Rafael
 wrote:
> On 5/20/2010 4:03 PM, Trent Nelson wrote:
>> I'm perplexed why anyone would want to forgo the advantages of C++ for
>> C; I can make my C++ DLLs just as small as C ones.  And, like, what if
>> I want a linked list, or a hash, or a set, are we planning on writing
>> all of those from scratch?  Even string handling alone seems like a
>> huge win.
>
> The major concern was dependencies. If we move to C++, we'd have to then
> start binding to, redistribute, and service the Microsoft Visual C++
> runtimes. If we used the latest version of the runtimes, for example,
> we'd drop support for Windows XP Service Pack 0, 1, and 2 machines plus
> exclude anyone using the Starter Edition SKU. (The latest runtimes don't
> install on these platforms.)

Static binding...

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Trying to prioritize things

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, May 20, 2010 at 6:25 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:

> Hey folks,
>
>
>
> I’m trying to prioritize all the crap on my plate, and I don’t want to drop
> anything so I need everyone who is blocking on something from me, to reply
> to this mail with ONE or TWO items they need from me, and the priority
> (critical or important)
>
>
Hi Garrett,

Any updates?

Olaf
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Re: [Coapp-developers] TakeoffGW

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 4:08 PM, Seo Sanghyeon  wrote:
> I came across http://takeoffgw.sourceforge.net/ which seems to be relevant.
>
> Thoughts?

What are yours?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Whiteboard Pictures from the summit

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Jun 2, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Trent Nelson  wrote:
> On 02/06/2010 13:24, Trent Nelson wrote:
>>
>> On 6/2/2010 1:06 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:
>>>
>>> Does anyone have pictures of the whiteboards taken at the summit?
>>>
>>> I need them. Badly.
>>
>> I'll see if I can wrestle them off my iPhone now.
>
> http://cid-71eaab00a4e2e135.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/CoApp%20Summit%20--%20Whiteboard%20Photos

We need a good OCR app...

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Async notification from CoApp Engine (libCoApp)

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Jun 9, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Ah, she did reply but to me directly:

Don't you love the lack of a reply-to header? ;)

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Wake Up

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, Jun 22, 2010 at 7:51 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:

>  !WAKE UP!
>
> Been awake for 11 hours already...
What's up?

Olaf
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Re: [Coapp-developers] cli command syntax

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 6:32 PM, Mark Stone  wrote:
> You are going to want something like:
> coapp --dep  lists the other packages on which the named
> package is dependent.

And --rdep to list reverse dependencies.
A way to specify what version you want to install.
A way to specify what install type you want (all-users, per-user,
portable, source).

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] cli command syntax

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, Jun 29, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Hmmm..
>
> Reverse dependencies could be a computationally expensive operation :D ... 
> Well, once there are thousands of packages.
>
> Is there a really useful case for that? Really?

Yes. If you're a library it might be useful to know which stuff depends on you.

Debian supports it.

> Version is taken care of in the package canonicalization I specified:    
> [repo:]name[-MM.NN][.RR][.BB]

That allows you to install a specific version. But maybe one user
wants to track beta versions, or even alpha versions.

> I have to do some proof-of-concept work before I get to 
> per-user/portable/cloud install (I suspect they may be very similar to each 
> other.)


Olaf

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[Coapp-developers] Status?

[Olaf van der Spek]

Hey guys,

I don't see any activity on the mailing list or in the repository.
What are we waiting for?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code release schedule

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:12 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:

>  Oddly enough, this is what they call “desired behavior”.
>
>
>
> Actually, we use the same thing at Microsoft.. reply replies directly to
> the person, reply all is for the discussion.
>
>
Get used to using Reply All by default...
Garrett, haven't found the switch to disable HTML emails yet? ;)

Olaf
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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code release schedule

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 4:11 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> I know where the switch is… What’s wrong with HTML emails?

There's no need for it and together with top and Outlook's quoting
style it's annoying.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code release schedule

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 4:29 PM, Trevor Dennis  wrote:
> Gmail, Thunderbird, etc, have top replying as well.  It's just more natural
> to read the reply right away instead of scrolling down hundreds of lines of
> message to get to a reply.
> I don't have a problem with HTML, just that some people like putting
> pictures in their sig which cause every message to appear to have an
> attachment on it.

A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code release schedule

[Olaf van der Spek]

2010/7/27 Conan Kudo (ニール・ゴンパ) :
> Complain to the mail clients, not us. Frankly, it is ridiculously annoying
> to re-order my replies.

Why is that?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code release schedule

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 4:52 PM, Trevor Dennis  wrote:
> I think the main reason that top posting works for email and not for other
> mediums like forums is for the simple reason that I'm already tracking this
> conversation actively and I already know what's been said. So I don't want
> to read it again and again and again, etc.
> For example, in the reply to my previous message, I have to now re-read what
> I wrote before I get to the reply.  I already know what I wrote and don't
> want to read it again.
> Especially once you start getting mobile devices into the mix.  You want
> that new text to be the first thing you see on the screen.  You already know
> what came before so you can just close the message quickly after glancing at
> the reply.

Sounds like you need a better client. ;)

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Code release schedule

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 4:56 PM, Elizabeth M Smith
 wrote:
> In other news - how come we have all these mails about this and none about
> actual code

I've been wondering about that too.
Looked at the VCS a couple of times but didn't see any updates. :(

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Precompiled Headers

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:33 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:

>  Does anyone **REALLY** find that precompiled headers are worth the
> $%*(ing headaches?
>
> Can't you ask the VC compiler devs? They've probably got better stats than
we have.
That said, for small projects they might not provide much benefit.

Olaf
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Re: [Coapp-developers] Precompiled Headers

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 7:41 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> I’m not sure I care what they think/hear/know…
>
>
>
> They also tell us that there isn’t many people asking for C99.

Who needs C99 when there's C++0x? :p

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Engine - Teds initial take

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:32 AM, Ted Bullock  wrote:
> Hi Folks,
>
> I just committed a couple hours of thought towards the coapp-engine to:
>
> http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~tbullock/coapp-engine/experiment/changes

Hi Ted,

Just a few quick comments from a scan of the code. Haven't compiled it yet:

chip/chip.c:
> if(err = coapp_core_new(&chip_core))

What does the style guide say about a space between if and (?
My preference is a space.

> '\\ No newline at end of file'

Might be a good idea to add this newline to every file. A shame VS
doesn't do this by default...

> chip_core = NULL;

Unnecessary, coapp_core_free already does this (it probably shouldn't)
and the var goes out of scope anyway.

libcoapp/coapp.c:
> #define _COMPILING_COAPP_H

Shouldn't this be defined on project level?

> static enum coapp_error coapperr = COAPP_SUCCESS;

What's this?
Shouldn't globals have a g_ prefix?

libcoapp/coapp.h:
> COAPP_DB_CANNOT_OPEN

Might want to put a comma after this so reordering and adding entries is easier.

libcoapp/coapp_core.c:
> if(coapp_db_open(&(c->db)) == COAPP_DB_FAILURE)

Shouldn't this be != COAPP_DB_SUCCESS?

> coapp_core_free()

> *core = NULL;
> *core = NULL;

Why twice?
Standard free doesn't alter it's argument, should we?

Sorry for all the nitpicking. ;)

Greetings,

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Engine - Teds initial take

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Rivera, Rafael  wrote:
> And waste two bytes?! Silly ANSI and ISO C standards.

Only one if you use Linux EOLs. ;)

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Engine - Teds initial take

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Ted Bullock  wrote:
>>> '\\ No newline at end of file'
>>
>> Might be a good idea to add this newline to every file. A shame VS
>> doesn't do this by default...
>
> Is this really important? Why would we need a new line at the end of the file?

No, but 
http://bazaar.launchpad.net/~tbullock/coapp-engine/experiment/revision/1#chip/chip.c
mentions it.

>> libcoapp/coapp.c:
>>> #define _COMPILING_COAPP_H
>>
>> Shouldn't this be defined on project level?
>
> No, it is included in every internal .c file and is responsible for
> making sure that the dll_export/dll_import stuff is correctly
> specified.

Isn't it easier to do this once on project level?

>>> static enum coapp_error coapperr = COAPP_SUCCESS;
>>
>> What's this?
>> Shouldn't globals have a g_ prefix?
>
> I do not believe in hungarian notation.  Also this will go away. It
> was a passing thought on how to manage errors, except it isn't thread
> safe. I have some other ideas.

Prefixing globals is not about Hungarian notation.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] MSI compression

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 7:59 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> It's important to note that content outside the embedded CAB files are not 
> compressed (so any data/metadata in the MSI tables for example) and that it's 
> probably compressing that pretty good (that data is often a lot of text, and 
> should compress well).

When will this be fixed?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] MSI compression

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:03 PM, Rivera, Rafael
 wrote:
> It's as designed.

Then when will the design be improved?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] MSI compression

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 8:08 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> MSI files are actually Windows Structured Storage files 
> (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa380369%28v=VS.85%29.aspx).
>
> In order that older tools and OSes can read them, they really can't change 
> the fundamentals of how the files are written and store data. I can't see 
> them ever adding a compression layer on top of structured storage (they'll 
> tell ya to compress it yourself before storing it).

In that case MSI could (un)compress these parts, right?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] MSI compression

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Eric Schultz  wrote:
> In my experience with simple MSIs that I've zipped, you don't gain very much
> since the actual files are already compressed. I think custom actions are
> uncompressed so to the best of my knowledge that'd be the largest
> non-compressed portion of the MSI. In our case though, we have a single
> custom action DLL that is designed to be small to start off with. If we
> added another custom action DLL to decompress the other we'd probably just
> offset any savings we'd gain.

I was wondering about MSI in general, not just about our use case.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Questions, Questions, Questions

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Elizabeth M Smith
 wrote:
> Heh - this may get REALLY fun when you get to say... a database or a web app
> with data lying around...  Are we going to provide some way to migrate that
> data during an "upgrade" - cause if not we'll have some pretty angry users.
> "My mysql upgraded and all my data is gone..."

Why would the data be gone after a MySQL upgrade?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Questions, Questions, Questions

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 5:14 PM, Elizabeth M Smith
 wrote:
> I was referring to the fact that by default the data directory for mysql
> installs is in the application directory
> So if you didn't "upgrade" but instead installed both side by side, it would
> have a new blank data directory
> And the user, thinking they've simply upgraded and not done a new install
> would be utterly confused.
> Just making sure that even if our "upgrades" are side by side that we have a
> way to migrate user settings and data for applications.

Wasn't it changed to some stupid location like All Users some time ago?
The data dir is specified by the conf file and I'm sure our intend is
to not lose the conf file. ;)

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Questions, Questions, Questions

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Elizabeth M Smith
 wrote:
> The point I was trying to make is that other applications will have similar
> issues and not all are smart enough to have a conf file to specify it (and
> what if the user changes the location?)  - we need some kind of way for the

If the user changes what? If he changes the data dir, what is the problem?

> "upgrade" to specify migration data if we're not doing in place upgrades.

Hmm, this kind of data should not be in Program Files to start with.

But yeah, it's an issue to take into account.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] IA 64

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 12:34 PM, Adam Baxter  wrote:
> Nope.

Is there any reason our code wouldn't run on IA64 (or other archs)?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] IA 64

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Aug 20, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Eric Schultz  wrote:
> Wait now, what's going on with x64?

x64 won't run on ia64...

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Engine APIs required by Bootstrap

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Philip Allison
 wrote:
> Is __int64 the most preferred type for large file support?  Having had to

I'd use long long.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Engine APIs required by Bootstrap

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Elizabeth M Smith
 wrote:
> Um... there is no long long on windows

Says who?
We're not using VC6 are we?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Engine APIs required by Bootstrap

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 6:29 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Well, Windows APIs use LONG which is a typedef to long .. (clever, eh?)
> The CRT uses long for things like fseek.
> off_t is another typedef to long
> I suppose I should have said long instead of __int64 -- but I have a soft
> spot for being precise--in spite of the plethora of aliases to long.

You mean long long? Long doesn't cut it.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Engine APIs required by Bootstrap

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 6:55 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> knowing that 64bits is plenty enough for file sizes, I think we should 
> standardize on __int64 where we can.

__int64 is reasonable, although long long is standard.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Engine APIs required by Bootstrap

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Olaf's doin' his job by making sure we mean what we say. :D ... Thanks Olaf!

You're welcome!
BTW, how's mkProject coming along?
I remember back in April you said the first packages (like libz) would
take a few weeks. ;)

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Remember, we're always on IRC...

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 7:46 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:

>  Just a reminder to those who lurk, a bunch of us are often on IRC on
> irc.freenode.net (#coapp).
>
>
irc://irc.freenode.net/coapp ;)

Olaf
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Re: [Coapp-developers] Engine APIs required by Bootstrap

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Wed, Sep 1, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Well, like my life... things are happening in a slightly different order.

Ah, we're supporting out-of-order execution. :p

> Eric Schultz is rockin' away on mkProject, which looks like we're not too far 
> away from having in a state that we can make some test packages.

Great!

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Tool to generate test EXEs and DLLs for packages

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 6:04 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Oh, and this is also a pretty example of programming in C# like it was Perl.

I guess it won't pass the code review then. :p

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What's goin' down in the CoApp world

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 7:16 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> -  The code I’m working on:
>
> o   the native CoApp-Bootstrap exe that gets embedded into each MSI. This 
> will be done in the next couple of days so we can build some test packages.
>
> o   I finished a test EXE and DLL maker that builds and signs Side-by-side 
> Assemblies for testing.
>
> o   A few other bits of an intermediate testing/development framework to 
> support the efforts of the Syracuse University team. (more about this in a 
> follow-up email)

Hi Garrett,

What's the status of mkProject?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] What's goin' down in the CoApp world

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 7:32 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> mkProject is on hold until I get back from Europe. I'll be back on it around 
> October 3rd.

As long as it's done before my birthday it's fine with me.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] CoApp questions

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Sun, Sep 26, 2010 at 4:23 AM, John McNamee  wrote:
> Does anybody outside of Microsoft really like MSI?  Wouldn’t a package
> format based on ZIP archives be a better cultural fit for open source
> software?  I know MSI is the supported method for installing SxS
> assemblies.  For the sake of discussion, let’s assume that isn’t an issue.
> What other advantages do you see in MSI?  Are those advantages worth it?

IMO MSI is just an implementation 'detail'.

> (2) Shallow forks vs. upstream support
>
> I understand that shallow forks are needed to get started, but I hope the
> ultimate goal is getting CoApp adopted by as many upstream packages as
> possible.  I have a dream that some day, I'll be able to grab the latest
> code for random open source projects and build them on Windows as easily as
> on Unix.

There's no reason not to get upstream support.

> (3) CMake
>
> Have you looked at CMake (http://www.cmake.org)?  There are several
> cross-platform build systems out there, and none has emerged as a clear
> standard.  However, my observation is that CMake has gained the greatest
> acceptance.  Could CoApp leverage CMake?

IMO it's ok but not good.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] use of static libs permitted?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 2:38 PM, Philip Allison
 wrote:
> There is a use case for creating a minimal, stand-alone version of a
> particular package, bundling just what it needs into a deployable
> image, but I can't remember what conclusions have been reached about
> that.

Sometimes a single exe is desirable. In that cases, static linking is
the only option.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] use of static libs permitted?

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Oct 1, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Trevor Dennis  wrote:
> One of the main goals of the CoApp project though is to reduce code
> duplication.
> For example, we want to get down to only one copy of ZLIB.DLL on a computer
> with all applications using that single copy.  If projects start statically
> linking those libraries in, we lose the main benefit of CoApp.

Obviously static linking isn't meant for CoApp packages. It's meant
for software distributed without CoApp.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] CoApp and Windows Error Reporting/crashdump collection...

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Oct 29, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Jonathan Wilson  wrote:
> Are there any plans for CoApp to feature crashdump collection? Will it be
> handled by going through Windows Error Reporting/WinQual? (if so how will it
> be handled for all those who cant afford the $500 price tag of the VeriSign
> certificate that is the only one Microsoft will accept for WER?)
> Will CoApp invent their own crashdump collection logic?

Ho Jonathan, ;)

One of the reasons to sign binaries is support for crashdump collection.
Certificates shouldn't be a problem, higher powers have said that'll
be taken care of.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Progress on mkSpec...

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 6:44 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:

>  I just thought I’d drop a note about the progress I’m making on mkSpec
> (the tool that takes source code and generates compiler-independent build
> data from it… which is a short jump from project files & make files. :D)
>
>
mkSpec isn't necessary for native packages, right?
Wouldn't it make more sense to first focus on mkProject such that we can get
started shallow-forking simple projects that don't need mkSpec and tracing?

Olaf
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Re: [Coapp-developers] CoApp Logo...

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, Nov 18, 2010 at 5:12 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:

>  Yeah, that’s one of the intended visual effects--
>
>
>
> On one hand, it’s a pretty geometric shape.
>
>
>
> On the other hand it’s a cube minus a cube.
>
>
Or a cube plus a cube from the other point of view.

Olaf
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Re: [Coapp-developers] FYI: Updates and I'm off next week

[Olaf van der Spek]

Happy New Year to everybody!

Garrett, maybe it'd be a good idea to post an updated roadmap / timeline /
project status.

Greetings,

Olaf

On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:

>  Just an FYI, I’ve pushed a lot of changes to a lot of the managed
> projects (toolkit, etc)
>
>
>
> If you have been playing around with the source pull updates for
> everything.
>
>
>
> And, I’m off next week—taking a spot of vacation before the Thanksgiving.
> :D
>
>
>
> G
>
>
>
> [image: Description: fearthecowboy] 
>
> *Garrett* *Serack* | Microsoft's Open Source Software Developer | *Microsoft
> Corporation
> Office*:(425)706-7939   *email*/*
> messenger*: garre...@microsoft.com
> *blog*: http://fearthecowboy.com  *
> twitter*: @fearthecowboy 
>
> *I don't make the software you use; I make the software you use better on
> Windows.***
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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> https://launchpad.net/~coapp-developers
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>
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Re: [Coapp-developers] FYI: Updates and I'm off next week

[Olaf van der Spek]

Just restore your backup from the day before. ;)

On Wed, Jan 5, 2011 at 7:06 PM, Garrett Serack wrote:

>  I was thinking the same thing!
>
>
>
> I have a hard drive that is about to die, so I have to rebuild my main PC
> this morning; following that, I’ll get right on it.
>
>
>
> *Garrett* *Serack* | Open Source Software Developer | *Microsoft
> Corporation *
>
> *I don't make the software you use; I make the software you use better on
> Windows.*
>
>
>
> *From:* Olaf van der Spek [mailto:olafvds...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 05, 2011 5:41 AM
>
> *To:* Garrett Serack
> *Cc:* coapp-developers@lists.launchpad.net
> *Subject:* Re: [Coapp-developers] FYI: Updates and I'm off next week
>
>
>
> Happy New Year to everybody!
>
> Garrett, maybe it'd be a good idea to post an updated roadmap / timeline /
> project status.
>
> Greetings,
>
> Olaf
>
> On Fri, Nov 19, 2010 at 9:46 PM, Garrett Serack 
> wrote:
>
> Just an FYI, I’ve pushed a lot of changes to a lot of the managed projects
> (toolkit, etc)
>
>
>
> If you have been playing around with the source pull updates for
> everything.
>
>
>
> And, I’m off next week—taking a spot of vacation before the Thanksgiving.
> :D
>
>
>
> G
>
>
>
> [image: Description: fearthecowboy] <http://fearthecowboy.com/>
>
> *Garrett* *Serack* | Microsoft's Open Source Software Developer | *Microsoft
> Corporation
> Office*:(425)706-7939   *email*/*
> messenger*: garre...@microsoft.com
> *blog*: http://fearthecowboy.com  *
> twitter*: @fearthecowboy <http://twitter.com/fearthecowboy>
>
> *I don't make the software you use; I make the software you use better on
> Windows.*
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
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[Coapp-developers] [OT] Win32 API feedback

[Olaf van der Spek]

Hi,

It's off-topic (probably), but does anyone know where one can submit
Win32 API feedback, like feature requests? For VS, there's Connect,
but I don't know what the right place is for the Win32 API.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] [OT] Win32 API feedback

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:55 AM, Rafael Rivera
 wrote:
> They don't take Win32 feedback, nice try ;)

That sucks. Why's that?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] [OT] Win32 API feedback

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 12:37 PM, Rafael Rivera
 wrote:
> Given the various intricacies of the API, I don't think it's an area where
> general consumer feedback would be useful.

No, but developer feedback is something else.

> You can try posting in the Windows SDK sub-forum, probably the best chance
> you've got.
> http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Forums/en-US/windowssdk/threads

Thanks, will give it a try.

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Package Server Implementation

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 12:42 AM, Philip Allison
 wrote:
> You use the word server, but then mention ASP and Orchard (which I hadn't
> heard of, but appears to be a CMS framework).  I am confused.  What nature
> of beastie are we talking about here?

ASP is a server-side language, what's the confusion?

Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] A few quick updates

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, Feb 3, 2011 at 5:08 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> I’ll be publishing our first binaries next week (command line package 
> installer, trace, scan mkPackage tools, engine, and my little Quicktool )

When is next week? :p

Olaf

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[Coapp-developers] LP repo layout

[Olaf van der Spek]

Hi,

Why does every tool have it's own repo on LP?
Having all tools in a single repo seems much handier.

-- 
Olaf

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[Coapp-developers] Footer

[Olaf van der Spek]

Hi,

On quotes, the footer gets quoted too. This is not normal. Why is this
happening?

-- 
Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Footer

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Mon, Mar 21, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> That may just be Outlook Web Access...

Who would ever use that? :p
Could the footer be reduced to one line (just
https://launchpad.net/~coapp-developers)?


-- 
Olaf

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Re: [Coapp-developers] Blogged: "Binding Events to .NET 4.0 Tasks instead of Objects (Part 2)"

[Olaf van der Spek]

On Thu, Apr 14, 2011 at 5:49 PM, Garrett Serack  wrote:
> Second part of my Event Binding series : "Binding Events to .NET 4.0 Tasks
> instead of Objects (Part 2)" http://j.mp/fDUtbH

Can we build packages yet?

-- 
Olaf

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