Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Hey folks,

I'm looking to add solar panels to my boat.  I have a new hard top dodger
that will be a great place to mount some flexible panels.  I realize that
attention will have to be given to the boom so that it's shadow it
minimized.  I've given consideration to the fact that some shadow is likely
inevitable.  My understanding is that one large solar panel can have a
substantial drop in it's output or be completely disabled if only a
relatively small shadow is cast.  As such I am planning for 4 smaller 50w
panels instead of 2 100w panels.  The idea being that a small shadow will
only disable 1 or 2 of the panels at a time.  This design also adds
reliability such that a mechanical or electrical failure of a single panel
doesn't disable the entire system.  Additionally, a smaller panel is easier
to replace and cost less.

To ensure reliability I was also planning to NOT creat an array of series
and parallel panels going to one controller but rather each panel to its
own controller.  I believe the current recommendation is to use MPPT over
PWM?

There is a wide range of prices for panels and controllers but I'm having a
hard time determining which ones are a good value.  I know you get what you
pay for but over paying is silly.  At the boat show, 50w, semi-flexible,
>20% efficient, monocrystalline panels were going for as much as $500!
I've seen charge controllers as high as $250.  I know there are a few ebay
haters here but the comparable panels I found were $125 and 20A MPPT
controllers for $11 with free shipping.  Is there something I'm missing?

Besides disparaging comments about ebay or about me being cheap, does
anyone have any insights about the design or component selection.

I was originally pursuing a multi-channel controller but it seems no one
makes them.

When using multiple (4) controllers do they need to be diode separated from
the battery?

What about the dump load?  I plan to use a single 200w resistive heater.
Would it need to be diode separated from each controller?

Thanks,

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD
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Re: Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers

[Ebay via CnC-List]

Josh:

You've certainly given this a lot of thought.  Don't overthink or overbuild it. 
 KISS

If it were me, I'd go with two 100 watt panels back to a single $50 controller 
and keep the wiring as simple as possible.  Keep in mind you're talking about a 
system that will deliver about 60 ah per day (12v). Frankly I wouldn't even 
worry about a load assuming you're wiring it directly to a battery bank of any 
size and not through a switch.  

You may also want to look at panels from RV stores which are usually identical 
but lack the boat related price.  Check model numbers carefully if you go that 
route.  Keep in mind the weight going onto the Bimini as 4 50 watt panels will 
nearly double the weight of 2 100w panels.  You'll also double the mounting 
hardware, etc.

Just my 2 cents.

John

Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 14, 2014, at 5:43 AM, Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hey folks,
> 
> I'm looking to add solar panels to my boat.  I have a new hard top dodger 
> that will be a great place to mount some flexible panels.  I realize that 
> attention will have to be given to the boom so that it's shadow it minimized. 
>  I've given consideration to the fact that some shadow is likely inevitable.  
> My understanding is that one large solar panel can have a substantial drop in 
> it's output or be completely disabled if only a relatively small shadow is 
> cast.  As such I am planning for 4 smaller 50w panels instead of 2 100w 
> panels.  The idea being that a small shadow will only disable 1 or 2 of the 
> panels at a time.  This design also adds reliability such that a mechanical 
> or electrical failure of a single panel doesn't disable the entire system.  
> Additionally, a smaller panel is easier to replace and cost less.
> 
> To ensure reliability I was also planning to NOT creat an array of series and 
> parallel panels going to one controller but rather each panel to its own 
> controller.  I believe the current recommendation is to use MPPT over PWM?
> 
> There is a wide range of prices for panels and controllers but I'm having a 
> hard time determining which ones are a good value.  I know you get what you 
> pay for but over paying is silly.  At the boat show, 50w, semi-flexible, >20% 
> efficient, monocrystalline panels were going for as much as $500!  I've seen 
> charge controllers as high as $250.  I know there are a few ebay haters here 
> but the comparable panels I found were $125 and 20A MPPT controllers for $11 
> with free shipping.  Is there something I'm missing?
> 
> Besides disparaging comments about ebay or about me being cheap, does anyone 
> have any insights about the design or component selection. 
> 
> I was originally pursuing a multi-channel controller but it seems no one 
> makes them.
> 
> When using multiple (4) controllers do they need to be diode separated from 
> the battery? 
> 
> What about the dump load?  I plan to use a single 200w resistive heater. 
> Would it need to be diode separated from each controller?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C&C 37+
> Solomons, MD
> 
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Re: Stus-List Spewing dripless

[Letsgo Sailing via CnC-List]

Regarding the backflow valve and or check valve, it is not recommended to 
install one. There is a great possibility that one day it will get dry algae 
and will get stuck. Most likely this will happen when it is the last think you 
want in your schedule.

 

Yanni

92 Lebaron 3.0 convertible

95 LeBaron 3.0 turbo convertible

07 Yamaha Straotoliner S

SCRC 011059

SRO 26-6483

 

TURBO!cause bottles are for babies and superchargers blow!!!

Which would you rather have, go fast goodies or shiny shoes?

Your feet may look good but if your engine blows you ain't going nowhere

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Fred Hazzard 
via CnC-List
Sent: October 13, 2014 4:49 PM
To: mcrom...@bell.blackberry.net; cnc-list@cnc-list.com; 
mcrom...@bell.blackberry.net; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Spewing dripless

 

Do you have a backflow valve in the discharge line?   Until I put one in,

the water in the hose would flow back in and start the pump again.  My line 
from the pump to the back of the boat was about 15 feet long.

 

Fred Hazzard

S/V Fury

C&C 44

Portland, Or

 

On Mon, Oct 13, 2014 at 1:32 PM, Michael Crombie via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> > wrote:

Hi Tom,

I had a cycling problem with my bilge switch as well...it would take forever to 
switch off.  It finally fried itself after a season. When I installed my new 
one (different make and directly on the bottom the bilge like you did), I had 
the same problem! But then I played with the angle of the pump and set it so 
that the float end of the pump was slightly higher than the pump end. This will 
give you a clean shut-off.  I just used a shim under the pump base to achieve 
this.

Mike
C&C 33 mk II
Toronto
Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell.
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Re: Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

You might be well advised to look at Sailboat Owners forum, where this has been 
discussed multiple times (e.g. here: 
http://forums.catalina.sailboatowners.com/showthread.php?p=1149325&highlight=solar%20panel).
 Also, a good read here: http://www.pbase.com/mainecruising/solar_panel.

There are various reports on using the cheap panels vs. the high quality 
expensive. Apparently, the expensive ones are most often produced in the same 
factory, on the same production line; however, they are thoroughly tested, so 
that all cells are working properly and produce equal amounts of energy. The 
cheap ones are the ones that did not make it through that QA.

Don’t skimp on controller(s). There are well documented reports showing that 
some can deliver substantially more energy (15% or even 20% more), which is 
especially important if you are using the solar panels to top up your batteries.

>From what I read, GenaSun controllers have the best opinion (price per 
>performance). Morning Star controllers (supposedly) are also quite good (this 
>is what I have).

Some controllers offer dual battery connection (with 50-50 or 90-10 split). If 
I were doing it again, I would install a simple controller (going to the house 
side) and an Echo Charger to charge the starting (spare) battery, as needed.

I don’t think you need a “dump load”, if you connect it directly to the 
batteries.

If you use multiple controllers, you will have some fun in controlling them, as 
they would see the wrong voltage on the battery (they would see the combined 
voltage of all controllers; rather than the battery itself). However, I don’t 
think you need any diodes, as they all have this protection built in (so the 
battery cannot feed the panel).

have fun

Marek
s/v “Legato”
in Ottawa

From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 5:43 AM
To: C&C List 
Subject: Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers

Hey folks,

I'm looking to add solar panels to my boat.  I have a new hard top dodger that 
will be a great place to mount some flexible panels.  I realize that attention 
will have to be given to the boom so that it's shadow it minimized.  I've given 
consideration to the fact that some shadow is likely inevitable.  My 
understanding is that one large solar panel can have a substantial drop in it's 
output or be completely disabled if only a relatively small shadow is cast.  As 
such I am planning for 4 smaller 50w panels instead of 2 100w panels.  The idea 
being that a small shadow will only disable 1 or 2 of the panels at a time.  
This design also adds reliability such that a mechanical or electrical failure 
of a single panel doesn't disable the entire system.  Additionally, a smaller 
panel is easier to replace and cost less.

To ensure reliability I was also planning to NOT creat an array of series and 
parallel panels going to one controller but rather each panel to its own 
controller.  I believe the current recommendation is to use MPPT over PWM?

There is a wide range of prices for panels and controllers but I'm having a 
hard time determining which ones are a good value.  I know you get what you pay 
for but over paying is silly.  At the boat show, 50w, semi-flexible, >20% 
efficient, monocrystalline panels were going for as much as $500!  I've seen 
charge controllers as high as $250.  I know there are a few ebay haters here 
but the comparable panels I found were $125 and 20A MPPT controllers for $11 
with free shipping.  Is there something I'm missing?

Besides disparaging comments about ebay or about me being cheap, does anyone 
have any insights about the design or component selection.  

I was originally pursuing a multi-channel controller but it seems no one makes 
them.

When using multiple (4) controllers do they need to be diode separated from the 
battery?  

What about the dump load?  I plan to use a single 200w resistive heater. Would 
it need to be diode separated from each controller?

Thanks,

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD




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Re: Stus-List thread reply and rod rigging

[Petar Horvatic via CnC-List]

A lot of people don't like the rod, but there are few nice things about it.
For instance, it does not let water in like the wire braid does at the
swage.  So there is no oxygen depleted water inside the fitting.  Unlike the
swage, where you never know the conditions of stainless inside, rod is
easily inspected by disassembling the stem balls from the turnbuckles or
tangs, provided they are not galled.   If you read up about it a bit, you
can magnaflux them for cracks and determine what needs replacement.  Tricky
part with rod is cold-forming the stem balls without cracks.  As Dennis
said, re-heading.  Not many riggers can do it.  And if it forms with cracks
after a few tries, you pretty much have to throw away the length of the stay
and start over.   I've seen few rod-rig boats with spreaders that are
asymmetrical or not bisecting the shrouds.  I suspect for this very reason.


If you decide to go with this boat,  and if you need someone, I'll send you
the contact of original C&C rigger, he is in Fall River.  I had him come by
after I got nowhere with Hall Spars(besides giving them a lot of money).  My
rig was in the cradle one summer and we went over a lot of the points.  I
ended doing a lot of the work myself and he came by after to inspect it.
He also provided all the parts I needed so I didn't have to spend too much
time researching components.  This was back in '06 and I am getting ready to
take the mast down this fall again after close to 10k miles and 8 years.   

Either you spent a lot of money for someone else to deal with issues on your
boat, or you spend your own time to learn and know how to inspect, replace
and maintain your own systems.  Rig is no exception.  It requires attention
to detail and mistakes can be devastating.  But so can be mistakes with many
other boat systems.  

 

 

Petar Horvatic

Sundowner

76 C&C 38MkII

Newport, RI

 

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Casciato via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 12:51 PM
To: 'Dennis C.'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List thread reply and rod rigging

 

David:  Just my 2 cents worth..

 

Since you're in Newport RI, you have way more rigging expertise at your
fingertips than most of us on this list.Newport is full of competition
boats and riggers and such.  Find someone local and have them look at the
rig.

 

MY 38MKIIC is a 1977 vintage and has the original rod rigging that came with
the boat.  My mast is, however, a Stearns' mast instead of the standard C&C
one.  I have had my mast down several times in the past 16 years of
ownership and I've also had the rigging checked each time.  Regardless of
mast manufacturer, rod rigging is still a better option from my
perspective

 

To date (now I've really jinxed it) it is in fine shape and I expect it to
last a long time.

 

We race this boat so it gets more stress than usual cruising does and still
the rod is intact and healthy.

 

Just for thought.

 

Ron C.

Impromptu

C&C 38MKIIC..'77

 

Incidentally.they are making new C&C's right down the road from Newport
and you might drop in there to get an opinion.Principles there were
related to the C&C production effort in RI back in the daythey should be
great resources for you locally..

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C.
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 10:57 AM
To: David Dawes; CnClist
Subject: Re: Stus-List thread reply and rod rigging

 

David, 

If you're looking at reheading all the rigging, think about pulling the rig,
removing all the shrouds, coiling them up and taking them to a NavTec shop.
You can coil the rod to no LESS than 200 times diameter and strap it to an
"X" made of 2 x 4's for transport.  UPS will ship it.  

You didn't say where you were.  There may be a NavTec shop near you. Throw
it in a pickup and drive it there.

 

Before you coil it, make a list of each rod and carefully measure the pin to
pin distance.  That is, between the centers of the hole in each end.  Also
measure the pin diameters.  Now you have a record of the rig.

Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83

Mandeville, LA

 

 

On Sun, Oct 12, 2014 at 7:19 AM, David Dawes via CnC-List
 wrote:

Hi, can someone tell me how to reply to a thread?  Sorry, I can't figure it
out.  So I started a new one.

 

 

Next I looked at a 1984 CNC 35 M3 yesterday.  Concerned about the rod
rigging.  This boat is run down so I don't expect a record of rigging
inspection or service.

 

A rigger friend recommended full replacement.

 

Is this correct?  And what are alternatives?  What is a rod replacement cost
approx?  And is a wire replacement smart/ advisable/ cost effective or too
heavy?  Technology has moved ahead in 30 years.

 

I love the boat layout etc.  But suspect rigging will kill my offshore
pleasure!

 

Many thanks,

 

David.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

David Dawes

Captain

Newport, RI, USA

+1(401)585

Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers

[Robert Boyer via CnC-List]

I agree with the other recommendation to reduce the number of solar panels, 
rather than increasing it.  I have (2) 100-watt Solbian flexible panels and 
they work great but I am noticing that in the Fall when the days become 
shorter, my generation is reduced.  So, I will be adding another 100 watts in 
the Spring.  With my panels and their locations, shadows are of no concern.  I 
usually pull my boom off to one side of the boat when in the slip or at anchor. 
 I have heard stories about tremendous impacts of shadowing and I think these 
cases use one controller for multiple panels--with this arrangement, if one 
panel is in a shadow, all of the panels on the same controller are reduced in 
output.  I have separate controllers on each panel.

The 100 watts I'm adding next Spring will be on two panels because my backstay 
comes through my bimini where I want to add the panels--so, I will be adding 
(2) 50-watt panels with a single controller since it is hard to imagine how one 
could be shadowed and not the other.

Make sure that you allow for stretch ion the bimini and that the load does not 
go into the solar panel!  My blog post of April 6, 2014 describes how I dealt 
with this problem.  Also, my canvas guy did not want the responsibility of 
putting the fasteners on the panel in case he screwed it up (too much 
liability)--so, I did it.

I believe that, in general, the cheaper panels don't last as long as more 
expensive ones (like Solbian) but I have no data to back this up.  In my case, 
I am using my panels for cruising and I don't want to have to deal with 
problems with them into my retirement and I need them to last 10 years.  If you 
are simply sailing in the U.S. or Canada and can change them whenever they have 
a problem, you don't need to think this out like I did.

Bob

Bob Boyer
S/V Rainy Days (1983 C&C Landfall 38 - Hull #230)
email: dainyr...@icloud.com
blog: dainyrays.blogspot.com

"There is nothing--absolutely nothing--half so much worth doing as simply 
messing about in boats." --Kenneth Grahame

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Re: Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

1st off - you can parallel them into one controller with only the very tiniest 
loss of efficiency despite shadows.
2nd - many controllers out there are crap at best. Morningstar makes excellent 
PWM and MPPT controllers. I have had great luck with mine. I would not even 
consider cheap FleaBay contollers. YMMV.  PWM controllers are less efficient, 
but they are a lot cheaper.
See 
http://support.morningstarcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Trad-PWM-vs-TrakStar-MPPT-April-2014.pdf
Morningstar MPPT :
http://www.amazon.com/Morningstar-Sunsaver-TrackStar-Charge-Controller/dp/B006H9VPL6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413293847&sr=8-1&keywords=morningstar+solar+controller+mppt+15+amp
  about $220.

http://www.amazon.com/MorningStar-ProStar-PS-30-Charge-Controller/dp/B003YIB7QQ/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1413293962&sr=8-7&keywords=morningstar+solar+controller+PWM

About half that price and includes an anchor light output.

Just get one QUALITY controller. Good PWM beats some random MPPT scavenged off 
of Fleabay. Don't forget to look at panel amp output, don't do the math for 12  
volts. Most panels are 16-18 volts, so 200 watts at 16 volts is 12.5 amps and 
within the range of a 15 amp controller.


Joe Della Barba
Coquina
C&C 35 MK I
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 5:43 AM
To: C&C List
Subject: Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers


Hey folks,

I'm looking to add solar panels to my boat.  I have a new hard top dodger that 
will be a great place to mount some flexible panels.  I realize that attention 
will have to be given to the boom so that it's shadow it minimized.  I've given 
consideration to the fact that some shadow is likely inevitable.  My 
understanding is that one large solar panel can have a substantial drop in it's 
output or be completely disabled if only a relatively small shadow is cast.  As 
such I am planning for 4 smaller 50w panels instead of 2 100w panels.  The idea 
being that a small shadow will only disable 1 or 2 of the panels at a time.  
This design also adds reliability such that a mechanical or electrical failure 
of a single panel doesn't disable the entire system.  Additionally, a smaller 
panel is easier to replace and cost less.

To ensure reliability I was also planning to NOT creat an array of series and 
parallel panels going to one controller but rather each panel to its own 
controller.  I believe the current recommendation is to use MPPT over PWM?

There is a wide range of prices for panels and controllers but I'm having a 
hard time determining which ones are a good value.  I know you get what you pay 
for but over paying is silly.  At the boat show, 50w, semi-flexible, >20% 
efficient, monocrystalline panels were going for as much as $500!  I've seen 
charge controllers as high as $250.  I know there are a few ebay haters here 
but the comparable panels I found were $125 and 20A MPPT controllers for $11 
with free shipping.  Is there something I'm missing?

Besides disparaging comments about ebay or about me being cheap, does anyone 
have any insights about the design or component selection.

I was originally pursuing a multi-channel controller but it seems no one makes 
them.

When using multiple (4) controllers do they need to be diode separated from the 
battery?

What about the dump load?  I plan to use a single 200w resistive heater. Would 
it need to be diode separated from each controller?

Thanks,

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD
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Re: Stus-List thread reply and rod rigging

[Burt Stratton via CnC-List]

Petar,

 

I will be removing my mast this fall when I haul the boat. I have no
knowledge of the history of maintenance on my rig and would like to have a
competent rigger take a look at it for me. For all I know everything on the
boat is original equipment, thus it is 40 years old. I have all rod rigging
except the forestay and baby stay and, of course my two runners. You
mentioned a rigger in Fall River that is the original C&C rigger. I would
appreciate the contact info. If you want to send it off list, me email
address is bstrat...@falconnect.com.

 

Are there any other owners of the 33 foot ¾ tonner on this list? I don’t
know how many were built or for how long. Mine was built in 1974. It is not
well suited for cruising and frankly the layout is pretty sparse for a 33
foot hull but I love the way she sails.

 

Thanks,

Burt

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Petar
Horvatic via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 9:11 AM
To: 'Ron Casciato'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com; 'Dennis C.'
Subject: Re: Stus-List thread reply and rod rigging

 

A lot of people don’t like the rod, but there are few nice things about it.
For instance, it does not let water in like the wire braid does at the
swage.  So there is no oxygen depleted water inside the fitting.  Unlike the
swage, where you never know the conditions of stainless inside, rod is
easily inspected by disassembling the stem balls from the turnbuckles or
tangs, provided they are not galled.   If you read up about it a bit, you
can magnaflux them for cracks and determine what needs replacement.  Tricky
part with rod is cold-forming the stem balls without cracks.  As Dennis
said, re-heading.  Not many riggers can do it.  And if it forms with cracks
after a few tries, you pretty much have to throw away the length of the stay
and start over.   I’ve seen few rod-rig boats with spreaders that are
asymmetrical or not bisecting the shrouds.  I suspect for this very reason.


If you decide to go with this boat,  and if you need someone, I’ll send you
the contact of original C&C rigger, he is in Fall River.  I had him come by
after I got nowhere with Hall Spars(besides giving them a lot of money).  My
rig was in the cradle one summer and we went over a lot of the points.  I
ended doing a lot of the work myself and he came by after to inspect it.
He also provided all the parts I needed so I didn’t have to spend too much
time researching components.  This was back in ‘06 and I am getting ready to
take the mast down this fall again after close to 10k miles and 8 years.   

Either you spent a lot of money for someone else to deal with issues on your
boat, or you spend your own time to learn and know how to inspect, replace
and maintain your own systems.  Rig is no exception.  It requires attention
to detail and mistakes can be devastating.  But so can be mistakes with many
other boat systems.  

 

 

Petar Horvatic

Sundowner

76 C&C 38MkII

Newport, RI

 

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ron
Casciato via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 12:51 PM
To: 'Dennis C.'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List thread reply and rod rigging

 

David:  Just my 2 cents worth..

 

Since you’re in Newport RI, you have way more rigging expertise at your
fingertips than most of us on this list.Newport is full of competition
boats and riggers and such.  Find someone local and have them look at the
rig.

 

MY 38MKIIC is a 1977 vintage and has the original rod rigging that came with
the boat.  My mast is, however, a Stearns’ mast instead of the standard C&C
one.  I have had my mast down several times in the past 16 years of
ownership and I’ve also had the rigging checked each time.  Regardless of
mast manufacturer, rod rigging is still a better option from my
perspective

 

To date (now I’ve really jinxed it) it is in fine shape and I expect it to
last a long time.

 

We race this boat so it gets more stress than usual cruising does and still
the rod is intact and healthy.

 

Just for thought.

 

Ron C.

Impromptu

C&C 38MKIIC….’77

 

Incidentally………..they are making new C&C’s right down the road from Newport
and you might drop in there to get an opinion.Principles there were
related to the C&C production effort in RI back in the daythey should be
great resources for you locally….

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C.
via CnC-List
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 10:57 AM
To: David Dawes; CnClist
Subject: Re: Stus-List thread reply and rod rigging

 

David, 

If you're looking at reheading all the rigging, think about pulling the rig,
removing all the shrouds, coiling them up and taking them to a NavTec shop.
You can coil the rod to no LESS than 200 times diameter and strap it to an
"X" made of 2 x 4's for transport.  UPS will ship it.  

You didn't say where you were.  There may be a NavTec shop near you. Throw
it 

Re: Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers

[Ebay via CnC-List]

I've been very happy with my tiny sunsaver charger.  I think 20 amps is about 
$80.  Probably not the best out there by any means but effective and reliable.  
This really all comes down to what you're doing with the boat.  Acceptable for 
long term cruising is different from weekend sailing in the US.  Not better or 
worse, just different needs.

I wouldn't discount high quality rigid panels for power to $ value.  

But again, keep it simple

John


Sent from my iPad

> On Oct 14, 2014, at 9:44 AM, Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> 1st off – you can parallel them into one controller with only the very 
> tiniest loss of efficiency despite shadows.
> 2nd – many controllers out there are crap at best. Morningstar makes 
> excellent PWM and MPPT controllers. I have had great luck with mine. I would 
> not even consider cheap FleaBay contollers. YMMV.  PWM controllers are less 
> efficient, but they are a lot cheaper.
> See 
> http://support.morningstarcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/Trad-PWM-vs-TrakStar-MPPT-April-2014.pdf
> Morningstar MPPT :
> http://www.amazon.com/Morningstar-Sunsaver-TrackStar-Charge-Controller/dp/B006H9VPL6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1413293847&sr=8-1&keywords=morningstar+solar+controller+mppt+15+amp
>   about $220.
>  
> http://www.amazon.com/MorningStar-ProStar-PS-30-Charge-Controller/dp/B003YIB7QQ/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1413293962&sr=8-7&keywords=morningstar+solar+controller+PWM
>  
> About half that price and includes an anchor light output.
>  
> Just get one QUALITY controller. Good PWM beats some random MPPT scavenged 
> off of Fleabay. Don’t forget to look at panel amp output, don’t do the math 
> for 12  volts. Most panels are 16-18 volts, so 200 watts at 16 volts is 12.5 
> amps and within the range of a 15 amp controller.
>  
>  
> Joe Della Barba
> Coquina
> C&C 35 MK I
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh 
> Muckley via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 5:43 AM
> To: C&C List
> Subject: Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers
>  
> Hey folks,
> 
> I'm looking to add solar panels to my boat.  I have a new hard top dodger 
> that will be a great place to mount some flexible panels.  I realize that 
> attention will have to be given to the boom so that it's shadow it minimized. 
>  I've given consideration to the fact that some shadow is likely inevitable.  
> My understanding is that one large solar panel can have a substantial drop in 
> it's output or be completely disabled if only a relatively small shadow is 
> cast.  As such I am planning for 4 smaller 50w panels instead of 2 100w 
> panels.  The idea being that a small shadow will only disable 1 or 2 of the 
> panels at a time.  This design also adds reliability such that a mechanical 
> or electrical failure of a single panel doesn't disable the entire system.  
> Additionally, a smaller panel is easier to replace and cost less.
> 
> To ensure reliability I was also planning to NOT creat an array of series and 
> parallel panels going to one controller but rather each panel to its own 
> controller.  I believe the current recommendation is to use MPPT over PWM?
> 
> There is a wide range of prices for panels and controllers but I'm having a 
> hard time determining which ones are a good value.  I know you get what you 
> pay for but over paying is silly.  At the boat show, 50w, semi-flexible, >20% 
> efficient, monocrystalline panels were going for as much as $500!  I've seen 
> charge controllers as high as $250.  I know there are a few ebay haters here 
> but the comparable panels I found were $125 and 20A MPPT controllers for $11 
> with free shipping.  Is there something I'm missing?
> 
> Besides disparaging comments about ebay or about me being cheap, does anyone 
> have any insights about the design or component selection. 
> 
> I was originally pursuing a multi-channel controller but it seems no one 
> makes them.
> 
> When using multiple (4) controllers do they need to be diode separated from 
> the battery? 
> 
> What about the dump load?  I plan to use a single 200w resistive heater. 
> Would it need to be diode separated from each controller?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Josh Muckley
> S/V Sea Hawk
> 1989 C&C 37+
> Solomons, MD
> 
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> 
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> at:
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Re: Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers

[Steve Thomas via CnC-List]

1. Panels in a multi panel system with panels wired in parallel should have a 
diode in series with each panel, but many panels come with an incorporated 
diode and adding another one will just waste power. The manufacturer's 
documentation will say it there is a diode incorporated since that is an added 
feature. 

2. There is no problem hooking up multiple panels to the same charge controller 
so long as you stay within maximum ratings. Multiple controllers should work 
fine, but at an added cost. Quality controllers are not particularly failure 
prone, but I get you desire for redundancy as a matter of principle.  

3. I have had good experience with Morningstar controllers, and my choice was 
influenced by recommendations from several people. Whatever you purchase, get a 
decent one, and if it has at least a few LEDs to indicate the controller's 
state and the battery state of charge then you probably won't need a separate 
battery monitor. A battery volt meter and a current meter for observing charge 
rate, will be sufficient in my experience. I can't really see that a separate 
monitor would be of any use unless it can at least keep a running total of the 
ampere hours delivered to the battery. 

4. MPPT controllers will squeeze a bit more current out of your panels but at 
an increased cost of purchase. Different panels have different efficiency 
ratings, and all else being equal, will cost more in proportion.

5. My experience with bimini mounted panels last winter is that on a sunny day 
at anchor you can expect the maximum mid-day charging rate to be about 1/2 the 
panel ratings, and the total ampere hours for the day to about 3 times the 
maximum amp rating total for the panels. (You never get the rated output of a 
panel unless it is pointing squarely at the sun.) To put it another way, with 2 
100 watt panels rated at 7 amps each, we got around 7.5 amps at noon hour with 
both panels in parallel and at the latitude of Miami. This worked out to better 
than 45 ampere hours per day with the setup we had. Combined with a small wind 
mill, it was enough to keep the ice box refrigeration going without having to 
run the engine for a couple of weeks. 

Steve Thomas
  - Original Message - 
  From: Josh Muckley via CnC-List 
  To: C&C List 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 5:43 AM
  Subject: Stus-List Solar panels and charge controllers


  Hey folks,

  I'm looking to add solar panels to my boat.  I have a new hard top dodger 
that will be a great place to mount some flexible panels.  I realize that 
attention will have to be given to the boom so that it's shadow it minimized.  
I've given consideration to the fact that some shadow is likely inevitable.  My 
understanding is that one large solar panel can have a substantial drop in it's 
output or be completely disabled if only a relatively small shadow is cast.  As 
such I am planning for 4 smaller 50w panels instead of 2 100w panels.  The idea 
being that a small shadow will only disable 1 or 2 of the panels at a time.  
This design also adds reliability such that a mechanical or electrical failure 
of a single panel doesn't disable the entire system.  Additionally, a smaller 
panel is easier to replace and cost less.

  To ensure reliability I was also planning to NOT creat an array of series and 
parallel panels going to one controller but rather each panel to its own 
controller.  I believe the current recommendation is to use MPPT over PWM?

  There is a wide range of prices for panels and controllers but I'm having a 
hard time determining which ones are a good value.  I know you get what you pay 
for but over paying is silly.  At the boat show, 50w, semi-flexible, >20% 
efficient, monocrystalline panels were going for as much as $500!  I've seen 
charge controllers as high as $250.  I know there are a few ebay haters here 
but the comparable panels I found were $125 and 20A MPPT controllers for $11 
with free shipping.  Is there something I'm missing?

  Besides disparaging comments about ebay or about me being cheap, does anyone 
have any insights about the design or component selection.  

  I was originally pursuing a multi-channel controller but it seems no one 
makes them.

  When using multiple (4) controllers do they need to be diode separated from 
the battery?  

  What about the dump load?  I plan to use a single 200w resistive heater. 
Would it need to be diode separated from each controller?

  Thanks,

  Josh Muckley
  S/V Sea Hawk
  1989 C&C 37+
  Solomons, MD



--


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Emai

Stus-List automatic bilge pump problems

[Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List]

 When I got the boat it had a Rule automatic pump that determined if there
 was water by running on occasion and measuring if there is a resistance to
 turn the impeller..  While it sounds smart in theory, in practice the
 impeller gets gooked-up with normal bilge crap and gets hard to turn
 whether the bilge is dry or not,  it was very inconsistent and could
 potentially run indefinitely.

 I replaced the pump with the highest capacity pump that would fit in the
 tiny sump area and went with the solid state Water Witch and a manual
 Johnson pump.

 The Water Witch (
 
https://www.waterwitchinc.com/new/SiteElements/Pages/SecondaryPages/Products/BilgeSwitches.html
 )  works flawlessly,(No float to jam,  it measures electrical resistance
 between plates)  but the I have the same spill back problem as I have a 14
 - 15 or so feet run from the pump to the stern discharge and the pump
 would not prime when I used the joker valve that came with it.  Also, I
 did not really want to introduce the one way valve as I have read too many
 horror stories about possible obstructions keeping the pump from working
 correctly.

 So in the interest of time and other more pressing priorities.. I decided
 to just live with a couple cups of water in the lower sump (Mostly comes
 from the stuffing box dripping when we run the engine) .. The way the boat
 is designed it's like a little bucket and it keeps the rest of the bilge
 dry,  Since we use the boat regularly the water is not too foul and
 there's no real issue with the smell.

 Eventually I'd like to add another pump, possibly this one:
 http://www.drybilgesystem.com/  Another thing is to get a small wet / dry
 vac and just suck it after using the boat which I'll probably get soon.

 The swtich is definitely a superior design. The pump seems to work well,
 outside of a second pump I don't see away around the backwash if I'm not
 willing to have some kind of one way valve..

 Quite the conundrum this one. .

 -Francois Rivard
 1990 34+ "Take Five"
 Lake Lanier, Georgia




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Re: Stus-List automatic bilge pump problems

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Nice product.  

 

I had purchased a Rule 1500 autiomatic bilge pump to replace the manual
PAR 36680-2000 on our boat that had no float switch.  Then I realized
the current pump has an extremely efficient pickup that takes almost all
of the water out of the bilge.  Will be returning the Rule and have
ordered the Water Witch 101 from their web site

 

Thanks for the heads up!

 

Mike

Persistence

Frers 33

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 11:18 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List automatic bilge pump problems

 

When I got the boat it had a Rule automatic pump that determined if
there was water by running on occasion and measuring if there is a
resistance to turn the impeller..  While it sounds smart in theory, in
practice the impeller gets gooked-up with normal bilge crap and gets
hard to turn whether the bilge is dry or not,  it was very inconsistent
and could potentially run indefinitely. 

I replaced the pump with the highest capacity pump that would fit in the
tiny sump area and went with the solid state Water Witch and a manual
Johnson pump.  

The Water Witch
(https://www.waterwitchinc.com/new/SiteElements/Pages/SecondaryPages/Pro
ducts/BilgeSwitches.html
 )  works flawlessly,(No float to jam,  it
measures electrical resistance between plates)  but the I have the same
spill back problem as I have a 14 - 15 or so feet run from the pump to
the stern discharge and the pump would not prime when I used the joker
valve that came with it.  Also, I did not really want to introduce the
one way valve as I have read too many horror stories about possible
obstructions keeping the pump from working correctly. 

So in the interest of time and other more pressing priorities.. I
decided to just live with a couple cups of water in the lower sump
(Mostly comes from the stuffing box dripping when we run the engine) ..
The way the boat is designed it's like a little bucket and it keeps the
rest of the bilge dry,  Since we use the boat regularly the water is not
too foul and there's no real issue with the smell.  

Eventually I'd like to add another pump, possibly this one:
http://www.drybilgesystem.com/ 
Another thing is to get a small wet / dry vac and just suck it after
using the boat which I'll probably get soon. 

The swtich is definitely a superior design. The pump seems to work well,
outside of a second pump I don't see away around the backwash if I'm not
willing to have some kind of one way valve.. 

Quite the conundrum this one. .

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, Georgia






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Stus-List Automatic bilge pump problems - pump cycling

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

The 35-1 has a very shallow bilge with a small volume sump just behind and
under the mast step.  Touche' has a 1500 GPH Rule bilge pump tucked tightly
into a space behind the mast step.  It's a tight fit.

With a large capacity pump and a small volume bilge, the issue of pump
cycling is very real.  That is, the pump kicks on, fills the hose and then
stops.  The water then drains from the hose back into the sump where it
triggers the process again, and again and again.  One could design a system
with loops and siphon breakers, etc. and have a perfectly viable bilge
pumping system without cycling.

When I purchased Touche', it had an impeller style pump installed in the
settee storage next to the mast.  A pickup hose ran to the bottom of the
bilge sump. The original hose configuration ran aft through the bilge to a
discharge under the toe rail in the starboard quarter, a long run of hose.
A float switch in the bilge operated the pump.

I removed this pump opting for the more traditional centrifugal style bilge
pump.  I also increased the pumping capacity significantly.  After
reconfiguration, pump cycling reared its ugly head.  The system was simply
pumping water partway up the hose only to have it drain back into the bilge
and trip the float switch again.

I moved the discharge to under the toerail on the port side midships
directly outboard of the pump location.  I also installed a Whale flapper
style check valve.  This system has worked flawlessly for 14 years.  There
is no back flow from the hose and no pump cycling.  One downside of this is
the bilge water spews out onto the dock depending on the water level in the
marina (fixed piers).  At a marina with floating piers, it ALWAYS spews
onto the dock since we dock port side to.

I was aware of the conventional wisdom about not installing a check valve
in a bilge line.  I researched the issue and found differing opinions on
the subject.  The Whale flapper style check valve is very simple and
reliable.  I have pulled the check valve and inspected it several times.
It showed no signs of pluggage and has not failed to stop back flow.  Last
time I pulled it, I disassembled it and coated the flapper with TefGel to
deter any scale deposition, etc.  Your experience may be entirely different.

In retrospect, there were several advantages to the impeller style pump
(and a diaphragm style pump for that matter).  First, a positive
displacement pump will have no back flow.  Second, the pick up hose could
be routed to the very bottom of Touche's sump where a pump can't fit.  This
would allow for the bilge to be emptied more than Touche's current system.
The downside is limited pump capacity and a potentially more expensive
system.  Also, impeller and diaphragm pumps may not handle "junk" in the
bilge as well as a centrifugal so a strainer must be considered.  A
strainer raises the potential for pluggage in itself.

If any are considering a new bilge pump system, look at a positive
displacement pump.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA







On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 9:17 AM, Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>
>When I got the boat it had a Rule automatic pump that determined if
>there was water by running on occasion and measuring if there is a
>resistance to turn the impeller..  While it sounds smart in theory, in
>practice the impeller gets gooked-up with normal bilge crap and gets hard
>to turn whether the bilge is dry or not,  it was very inconsistent and
>could potentially run indefinitely.
>
>I replaced the pump with the highest capacity pump that would fit in
>the tiny sump area and went with the solid state Water Witch and a manual
>Johnson pump.
>
>The Water Witch (
>
> https://www.waterwitchinc.com/new/SiteElements/Pages/SecondaryPages/Products/BilgeSwitches.html)
> works flawlessly,(No float to jam,  it measures electrical resistance
>between plates)  but the I have the same spill back problem as I have a 14
>- 15 or so feet run from the pump to the stern discharge and the pump would
>not prime when I used the joker valve that came with it.  Also, I did not
>really want to introduce the one way valve as I have read too many horror
>stories about possible obstructions keeping the pump from working
>correctly.
>
>So in the interest of time and other more pressing priorities.. I
>decided to just live with a couple cups of water in the lower sump (Mostly
>comes from the stuffing box dripping when we run the engine) .. The way the
>boat is designed it's like a little bucket and it keeps the rest of the
>bilge dry,  Since we use the boat regularly the water is not too foul and
>there's no real issue with the smell.
>
>Eventually I'd like to add another pump, possibly this one:
>http://www.drybilgesystem.com/  Another thing is to get a small wet /
>dry vac and just suck it after using the boat which I'll probably get 

Re: Stus-List automatic bilge pump problems

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Mike, much of this you probably know but I figured I would chime in for
everyone else.

The PAR pump you have is a belt driven diaphram pump that relies on inlet
and outlet check valves.  These are great little pumps that can be run dry
and self prime up to ~5 feet above the water level.  It is able to pump air
so it will act similarly to using a straw to suck a soda cup dry.  It
should not be mounted as a submersible pump.  As long as the end of the
pick up hose is touching the water it will slurp until the water is below
the hose.  Care needs to be taken though because any contaminants in the
water can foul the check valves a cause them not to seat then the pump
won't move water.  The nice thing is that the check valves prevent the
discharge hose from draining back into the bildge.

The flow rate of these pumps is relatively low (<4gpm/240gph) so using one
as a finishing touch is great but a larger pump should be sized
appropriately as a primary.  I say the bigger the better cause using a
bucket or even a hand pump sucks.  Even the smallest cheap Rule pump is
500gph.

You can wire the two pumps with and automotive relay to come on staggered
so that if the water gets above a certain level (higher float or
water-witch) the higher capacity pump will come on (relay energizes and
opens the circuit to the smaller pump) and do the heavy work once the level
is back to a managable level the big pump shuts off (relay de-energizes,
closing the little pump's circuit) and the little pump finishes the job.
That same relay can be used to power a horn so that you'll know during the
unusual times when the level gets high enough to warrant the big pump.

As expensive as these PAR pumps are they do have rebuild kits for the belt
and check valves.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C&C 37+
Solomons, MD
On Oct 14, 2014 10:36 AM, "Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Nice product.
>
>
>
> I had purchased a Rule 1500 autiomatic bilge pump to replace the manual
> PAR 36680-2000 on our boat that had no float switch.  Then I realized the
> current pump has an extremely efficient pickup that takes almost all of the
> water out of the bilge.  Will be returning the Rule and have ordered the
> Water Witch 101 from their web site
>
>
>
> Thanks for the heads up!
>
>
>
> Mike
>
> Persistence
>
> Frers 33
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of 
> *Jean-Francois
> J Rivard via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Tuesday, October 14, 2014 11:18 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Subject:* Stus-List automatic bilge pump problems
>
>
>
> When I got the boat it had a Rule automatic pump that determined if there
> was water by running on occasion and measuring if there is a resistance to
> turn the impeller..  While it sounds smart in theory, in practice the
> impeller gets gooked-up with normal bilge crap and gets hard to turn
> whether the bilge is dry or not,  it was very inconsistent and could
> potentially run indefinitely.
>
> I replaced the pump with the highest capacity pump that would fit in the
> tiny sump area and went with the solid state Water Witch and a manual
> Johnson pump.
>
> The Water Witch (
> https://www.waterwitchinc.com/new/SiteElements/Pages/SecondaryPages/Products/BilgeSwitches.html)
>  works flawlessly,(No float to jam,  it measures electrical resistance
> between plates)  but the I have the same spill back problem as I have a 14
> - 15 or so feet run from the pump to the stern discharge and the pump would
> not prime when I used the joker valve that came with it.  Also, I did not
> really want to introduce the one way valve as I have read too many horror
> stories about possible obstructions keeping the pump from working
> correctly.
>
> So in the interest of time and other more pressing priorities.. I decided
> to just live with a couple cups of water in the lower sump (Mostly comes
> from the stuffing box dripping when we run the engine) .. The way the boat
> is designed it's like a little bucket and it keeps the rest of the bilge
> dry,  Since we use the boat regularly the water is not too foul and there's
> no real issue with the smell.
>
> Eventually I'd like to add another pump, possibly this one:
> http://www.drybilgesystem.com/  Another thing is to get a small wet / dry
> vac and just suck it after using the boat which I'll probably get soon.
>
> The swtich is definitely a superior design. The pump seems to work well,
> outside of a second pump I don't see away around the backwash if I'm not
> willing to have some kind of one way valve..
>
> Quite the conundrum this one. .
>
> -Francois Rivard
> 1990 34+ "Take Five"
> Lake Lanier, Georgia
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> This List is provided by the C&C Photo Album
>
> Email address:
> CnC-List@cnc-list.com
> To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of
> page at:
> http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
>
>
>
___
This 

Re: Stus-List automatic bilge pump problems

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Here's a very expensive solution

http://www.aridbilge.com

The nice thing is that it can handle up to 8 (IIRC) different little
spaces.  So pockets of water between stringers or below limber holes can be
removed.

Very low flow rate though so it is just a finishing touch type of system.

Josh
On Oct 14, 2014 10:18 AM, "Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List" <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

>
>When I got the boat it had a Rule automatic pump that determined if
>there was water by running on occasion and measuring if there is a
>resistance to turn the impeller..  While it sounds smart in theory, in
>practice the impeller gets gooked-up with normal bilge crap and gets hard
>to turn whether the bilge is dry or not,  it was very inconsistent and
>could potentially run indefinitely.
>
>I replaced the pump with the highest capacity pump that would fit in
>the tiny sump area and went with the solid state Water Witch and a manual
>Johnson pump.
>
>The Water Witch (
>
> https://www.waterwitchinc.com/new/SiteElements/Pages/SecondaryPages/Products/BilgeSwitches.html)
> works flawlessly,(No float to jam,  it measures electrical resistance
>between plates)  but the I have the same spill back problem as I have a 14
>- 15 or so feet run from the pump to the stern discharge and the pump would
>not prime when I used the joker valve that came with it.  Also, I did not
>really want to introduce the one way valve as I have read too many horror
>stories about possible obstructions keeping the pump from working
>correctly.
>
>So in the interest of time and other more pressing priorities.. I
>decided to just live with a couple cups of water in the lower sump (Mostly
>comes from the stuffing box dripping when we run the engine) .. The way the
>boat is designed it's like a little bucket and it keeps the rest of the
>bilge dry,  Since we use the boat regularly the water is not too foul and
>there's no real issue with the smell.
>
>Eventually I'd like to add another pump, possibly this one:
>http://www.drybilgesystem.com/  Another thing is to get a small wet /
>dry vac and just suck it after using the boat which I'll probably get soon.
>
>The swtich is definitely a superior design. The pump seems to work
>well, outside of a second pump I don't see away around the backwash if I'm
>not willing to have some kind of one way valve..
>
>Quite the conundrum this one. .
>
>-Francois Rivard
>1990 34+ "Take Five"
>Lake Lanier, Georgia
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Keel Bolt Under the Mast on 35 MK 3

[Ron Kaye via CnC-List]

Jake, 
Please add us to the list of recipients  of your photos too.  

Ron & Lisa 
1986 35/3 
Mr Bop 

> On Oct 13, 2014, at 12:33 PM, Jake Brodersen via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Doug,
> 
> How can you tell the forward keel bolt is leaking?  Is there seepage from
> under the mast?
> 
> I went through a similar repair about ten years ago.  We dropped the keel,
> drilled a large bore hole through the mast step and inserted a stainless
> steel post (about 1 ½" in diameter).  The keel bolt now tries to compress
> the post instead of the somewhat questionable filler that is found in the
> mast step.  While my bilge is still always wet, my only issue is the
> constant stink that the boat has.  When we dropped the keel the forward bolt
> had a bunch of black water surrounding it.  The smell was horrible.
> 
> To further reduce any mast step problems, we installed a large ¼" stainless
> steel plate over the mast step to spread the load across several of the
> cross members.  I do have some pictures to share offline.
> 
> Jake
> 
> Jake Brodersen
> "Midnight Mistress"
> C&C 35 Mk-III
> Hampton VA
> 
> 
> 
> 
> _
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Doug
> Allardyce via CnC-List
> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 12:18 PM
> To: CnC- List
> Subject: Stus-List Keel Bolt Under the Mast on 35 MK 3
> 
> 
> Has anyone out there done any reconstruction in that cavity under the mast
> step where the keel bolt comes up. My mast step is solid, but I can't seem
> to get the forward keel bolt tight enough. I dropped the keel last spring
> and rebeded it with 5200 but the forward bolt still leaks after a hard race.
> 
> 
> Doug
> "Bullet"
> C&C 35 MK 3, 1985
> _/)~~~_/) 
> 
> << File: Untitled attachment 00291.txt >> 
> 
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Stus-List C&C 35 polars

[Bill Hoyne via CnC-List]

Hi All,
I have spent the last week sitting the couch recovering from a separated 
shoulder from a mountain bike fall. ( I got distracted watching a fat little 
black bear run away). This has given me way too much time on my hands and I 
started reading about sail trim. If I can’t go fast on my bike I might as well 
think about how to make Mithrandir go faster. I was wondering if anyone out 
there has the polars for a C&C 35 MkII?
Thanks!!

Bill Hoyne
Mithrandir
’74 C&C35 MkII
in Victoria,BC

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Re: Stus-List automatic bilge pump problems

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

I put in an anti-backflow valve, but in an area of the bilge where it is easy 
to get to (just under the floorboard). So, when it acts up, I can just take the 
cap off the 'T' part of the valve and clean it out. Or, in the worst case, just 
pull the whole thing - two hose clamps. I wanted the bilge to be as dry as 
possible because of the way the cross members are installed in a 30-1.

Gary
  - Original Message - 
  From: Jean-Francois J Rivard via CnC-List 
  To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
  Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 10:17 AM
  Subject: Stus-List automatic bilge pump problems


When I got the boat it had a Rule automatic pump that determined if there 
was water by running on occasion and measuring if there is a resistance to turn 
the impeller..  While it sounds smart in theory, in practice the impeller gets 
gooked-up with normal bilge crap and gets hard to turn whether the bilge is dry 
or not,  it was very inconsistent and could potentially run indefinitely. 

I replaced the pump with the highest capacity pump that would fit in the 
tiny sump area and went with the solid state Water Witch and a manual Johnson 
pump.  

The Water Witch 
(https://www.waterwitchinc.com/new/SiteElements/Pages/SecondaryPages/Products/BilgeSwitches.html)
  works flawlessly,(No float to jam,  it measures electrical resistance between 
plates)  but the I have the same spill back problem as I have a 14 - 15 or so 
feet run from the pump to the stern discharge and the pump would not prime when 
I used the joker valve that came with it.  Also, I did not really want to 
introduce the one way valve as I have read too many horror stories about 
possible obstructions keeping the pump from working correctly. 

So in the interest of time and other more pressing priorities.. I decided 
to just live with a couple cups of water in the lower sump (Mostly comes from 
the stuffing box dripping when we run the engine) .. The way the boat is 
designed it's like a little bucket and it keeps the rest of the bilge dry,  
Since we use the boat regularly the water is not too foul and there's no real 
issue with the smell.  

Eventually I'd like to add another pump, possibly this one: 
http://www.drybilgesystem.com/  Another thing is to get a small wet / dry vac 
and just suck it after using the boat which I'll probably get soon. 

The swtich is definitely a superior design. The pump seems to work well, 
outside of a second pump I don't see away around the backwash if I'm not 
willing to have some kind of one way valve.. 

Quite the conundrum this one. .

-Francois Rivard
1990 34+ "Take Five"
Lake Lanier, Georgia









--


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Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

[OldSteveH via CnC-List]

Does anyone know if the spray apron has balsa core?
Mine feels soft, but am unsure if it just feels soft because its thin. I
don't want to remove it if that's all it is.

Thanks

Steve Hood
S/V Diamond Girl
C&C 34
Lions Head ON





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Re: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

Mine is just thin.

Gary
- Original Message - 
From: "OldSteveH via CnC-List" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:53 PM
Subject: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron



Does anyone know if the spray apron has balsa core?
Mine feels soft, but am unsure if it just feels soft because its thin. I
don't want to remove it if that's all it is.

Thanks

Steve Hood
S/V Diamond Girl
C&C 34
Lions Head ON





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Re: Stus-List thread reply and rod rigging

[ahycrace--- via CnC-List]

Burt
   I use the same rigger as Petar and I must say he is top shelf.  I had 
the mast taken down at a marina near Fall River and He took the whole mast and 
all the rigging to his shop to inspect and replace what was needed. Best money 
I ever spent knowing that the rig is in good shape.

 Gary Kolc
"Liberty"
   38' MK II (or MK I I 
really don't know)

 Burt Stratton via CnC-List  wrote: 
> Petar,
> 
>  
> 
> I will be removing my mast this fall when I haul the boat. I have no
> knowledge of the history of maintenance on my rig and would like to have a
> competent rigger take a look at it for me. For all I know everything on the
> boat is original equipment, thus it is 40 years old. I have all rod rigging
> except the forestay and baby stay and, of course my two runners. You
> mentioned a rigger in Fall River that is the original C&C rigger. I would
> appreciate the contact info. If you want to send it off list, me email
> address is bstrat...@falconnect.com.
> 
>  
> 
> Are there any other owners of the 33 foot ¾ tonner on this list? I don’t
> know how many were built or for how long. Mine was built in 1974. It is not
> well suited for cruising and frankly the layout is pretty sparse for a 33
> foot hull but I love the way she sails.
> 
>  
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Burt
> 
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Petar
> Horvatic via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 9:11 AM
> To: 'Ron Casciato'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com; 'Dennis C.'
> Subject: Re: Stus-List thread reply and rod rigging
> 
>  
> 
> A lot of people don’t like the rod, but there are few nice things about it.
> For instance, it does not let water in like the wire braid does at the
> swage.  So there is no oxygen depleted water inside the fitting.  Unlike the
> swage, where you never know the conditions of stainless inside, rod is
> easily inspected by disassembling the stem balls from the turnbuckles or
> tangs, provided they are not galled.   If you read up about it a bit, you
> can magnaflux them for cracks and determine what needs replacement.  Tricky
> part with rod is cold-forming the stem balls without cracks.  As Dennis
> said, re-heading.  Not many riggers can do it.  And if it forms with cracks
> after a few tries, you pretty much have to throw away the length of the stay
> and start over.   I’ve seen few rod-rig boats with spreaders that are
> asymmetrical or not bisecting the shrouds.  I suspect for this very reason.
> 
> 
> If you decide to go with this boat,  and if you need someone, I’ll send you
> the contact of original C&C rigger, he is in Fall River.  I had him come by
> after I got nowhere with Hall Spars(besides giving them a lot of money).  My
> rig was in the cradle one summer and we went over a lot of the points.  I
> ended doing a lot of the work myself and he came by after to inspect it.
> He also provided all the parts I needed so I didn’t have to spend too much
> time researching components.  This was back in ‘06 and I am getting ready to
> take the mast down this fall again after close to 10k miles and 8 years.   
> 
> Either you spent a lot of money for someone else to deal with issues on your
> boat, or you spend your own time to learn and know how to inspect, replace
> and maintain your own systems.  Rig is no exception.  It requires attention
> to detail and mistakes can be devastating.  But so can be mistakes with many
> other boat systems.  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> Petar Horvatic
> 
> Sundowner
> 
> 76 C&C 38MkII
> 
> Newport, RI
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
>  
> 
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Ron
> Casciato via CnC-List
> Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 12:51 PM
> To: 'Dennis C.'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Re: Stus-List thread reply and rod rigging
> 
>  
> 
> David:  Just my 2 cents worth..
> 
>  
> 
> Since you’re in Newport RI, you have way more rigging expertise at your
> fingertips than most of us on this list.Newport is full of competition
> boats and riggers and such.  Find someone local and have them look at the
> rig.
> 
>  
> 
> MY 38MKIIC is a 1977 vintage and has the original rod rigging that came with
> the boat.  My mast is, however, a Stearns’ mast instead of the standard C&C
> one.  I have had my mast down several times in the past 16 years of
> ownership and I’ve also had the rigging checked each time.  Regardless of
> mast manufacturer, rod rigging is still a better option from my
> perspective
> 
>  
> 
> To date (now I’ve really jinxed it) it is in fine shape and I expect it to
> last a long time.
> 
>  
> 
> We race this boat so it gets more stress than usual cruising does and still
> the rod is intact and healthy.
> 
>  
> 
> Just for thought.
> 
>  
> 
> Ron C.
> 
> Impromptu
> 
> C&C 38MKIIC….’77
> 
>  
> 
> Incidentally……

Stus-List Canada Discovery Pass

[Alan Bergen via CnC-List]

I recently drove through some National Parks in Western Canada, and I no longer 
need my Discovery Pass. The pass is good for all the occupants in your vehicle, 
and it expires in September 2015. I paid $136 CD ($128 US). I will sell it for 
$80 CD ($75 US). If interested, contact me directly. 

Alan Bergen 
C&C 35 Mk III Thirsty 
Rose City YC 
Portland, OR 
(503) 358-6981 
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Re: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

[John and Maryann Read via CnC-List]

OK I'll bite - what is a spray apron??

John and Maryann
Legacy III
1982 C&C 34
Noank, CT
-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of OldSteveH
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:53 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

Does anyone know if the spray apron has balsa core?
Mine feels soft, but am unsure if it just feels soft because its thin. I
don't want to remove it if that's all it is.

Thanks

Steve Hood
S/V Diamond Girl
C&C 34
Lions Head ON





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Re: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

If you're talking about the spray coaming across the cabintop, on my 35-1
it was filled with foam.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 3:53 PM, OldSteveH via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Does anyone know if the spray apron has balsa core?
> Mine feels soft, but am unsure if it just feels soft because its thin. I
> don't want to remove it if that's all it is.
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve Hood
> S/V Diamond Girl
> C&C 34
> Lions Head ON
>
>
>
>
>
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> page at:
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>
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Re: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

[OldSteveH via CnC-List]

It's the screw-on cover over the sliding companionway hatch.
Mine is spongy to step on and it seems like it should be rigid. Am guessing
it needs core replacement?

Steve



-Original Message-
From: John and Maryann Read [mailto:johnpr...@comcast.net] 
Sent: October-14-14 7:37 PM
To: 'OldSteveH'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: RE: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

OK I'll bite - what is a spray apron??

John and Maryann
Legacy III
1982 C&C 34
Noank, CT
-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of OldSteveH
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:53 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

Does anyone know if the spray apron has balsa core?
Mine feels soft, but am unsure if it just feels soft because its thin. I
don't want to remove it if that's all it is.

Thanks

Steve Hood
S/V Diamond Girl
C&C 34
Lions Head ON





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Re: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

[Bill Coleman via CnC-List]

Mine is just fiberglass, it bows because it is only 3 of 4 MM thick.
I don't think the put any core in any of them. It would make it kind of
bulky.

Regards,

Bill Coleman
C&C39


-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of OldSteveH
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 8:32 PM
To: 'John and Maryann Read'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

It's the screw-on cover over the sliding companionway hatch.
Mine is spongy to step on and it seems like it should be rigid. Am guessing
it needs core replacement?

Steve



-Original Message-
From: John and Maryann Read [mailto:johnpr...@comcast.net] 
Sent: October-14-14 7:37 PM
To: 'OldSteveH'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: RE: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

OK I'll bite - what is a spray apron??

John and Maryann
Legacy III
1982 C&C 34
Noank, CT
-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of OldSteveH
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:53 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

Does anyone know if the spray apron has balsa core?
Mine feels soft, but am unsure if it just feels soft because its thin. I
don't want to remove it if that's all it is.

Thanks

Steve Hood
S/V Diamond Girl
C&C 34
Lions Head ON





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Re: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

OK, that's the sea hood.  Not sure if it's cored or not.

I just rebuilt one on a J35.  It was cored with end grain balsa.

Easy enough to peel it from underneath and recore it.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 7:31 PM, OldSteveH via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> It's the screw-on cover over the sliding companionway hatch.
> Mine is spongy to step on and it seems like it should be rigid. Am guessing
> it needs core replacement?
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: John and Maryann Read [mailto:johnpr...@comcast.net]
> Sent: October-14-14 7:37 PM
> To: 'OldSteveH'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: RE: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron
>
> OK I'll bite - what is a spray apron??
>
> John and Maryann
> Legacy III
> 1982 C&C 34
> Noank, CT
> -Original Message-
> From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of
> OldSteveH
> via CnC-List
> Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:53 PM
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Subject: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron
>
> Does anyone know if the spray apron has balsa core?
> Mine feels soft, but am unsure if it just feels soft because its thin. I
> don't want to remove it if that's all it is.
>
> Thanks
>
> Steve Hood
> S/V Diamond Girl
> C&C 34
> Lions Head ON
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List automatic bilge pump problems

[Spencer Johnson via CnC-List]

Very interesting discussion...my LF38 came with a Jabsco WaterPuppy pump 
mounted aft of the engine with a long hose and 90 degree strainer to the lowest 
part of the blige...just aft of the mast.  The bilge pump exit is just a few 
feet up to port of the pump, just below the rubrail.  A very efficient 
design...as long as there is not too much water coming in.  I have had the 
Water Witch switch and the Water Witch Bilge Counter installed for the last few 
years.  When I check the counter and it registers 34+ pump runs I know I have a 
problem..but the bilge only has < 1" of water.  (it turns out that my water 
tanks had the problem..not water coming in from outside...thank goodness!).  I 
would really like to add a 'Y' valve to the raw water intake to be able to use 
the engine as a pump...just in case...but the engine area is already pretty 
well stuffed and no good room exists for the valve.



Spencer Johnson
1984 C&C LF 38 "Alegria" #165
~~~_/) * 
Mount Prospect, IL
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Re: Stus-List Keel Bolt Under the Mast on 35 MK 3

[Jake Brodersen via CnC-List]

Don,

Here is a link to my keel R&R project:  
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/5p6cv1lr87l0dhi/AAATdMUKZ3wPPVxkO-LcCdSJa?dl=0
It should have plenty of mast step pics to satisfy everyone.

Jake

Jake Brodersen
“Midnight Mistress”
C&C 35 Mk-III
Hampton VA



-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of D Harben via 
CnC-List
Sent: Monday, October 13, 2014 1:25 PM
To: Bruno Lachance; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Keel Bolt Under the Mast on 35 MK 3

Hi

Would you mind sharing on a photo cloud?

Don



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Re: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

[Russ & Melody via CnC-List]

Hi Steve,

Mine has a very thin wood core with an ultra thin layer of FRP covering that.

It too feels spongy to step on but the core is dry (as a bone?).

Cheers, Russ
Sweet 35 mk-1




At 05:31 PM 14/10/2014, you wrote:

It's the screw-on cover over the sliding companionway hatch.
Mine is spongy to step on and it seems like it should be rigid. Am guessing
it needs core replacement?

Steve



-Original Message-
From: John and Maryann Read [mailto:johnpr...@comcast.net]
Sent: October-14-14 7:37 PM
To: 'OldSteveH'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: RE: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

OK I'll bite - what is a spray apron??

John and Maryann
Legacy III
1982 C&C 34
Noank, CT
-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of OldSteveH
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:53 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

Does anyone know if the spray apron has balsa core?
Mine feels soft, but am unsure if it just feels soft because its thin. I
don't want to remove it if that's all it is.

Thanks

Steve Hood
S/V Diamond Girl
C&C 34
Lions Head ON


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Re: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

[John and Maryann Read via CnC-List]

Thank you for the definition - I call it a hatch cover but that is east
coast

Had the same problem with ours that I fixed last winter.  There is a design
flaw in that the screws go through balsa core.  The eventual leaks saturate
the balsa causing delamination.

Fix is to remove the traveler, remove the cover, remove the inner skin,
remove all balsa (ours was literally dripping wet).  Sand / clean / smooth
the inner surface of the outer skin.  Let dry thoroughly.  Inspect / fill /
repair screw holes in deck as needed.  Cut 1/4 inch balsa sheet to fit
leaving a 1 inch border around exterior.  Tape screw holes on top side so
resin / epoxy do not drip through.  Apply resin, apply fiberglass chopped
mat to prevent water intrusion through exterior cracks.  Apply more resin.
Apply balsa.  Let cure.  Apply thickened epoxy filler to the 1 inch border.
Let cure.  Sand smooth / level with balsa.  Apply fiberglass woven mat.  Let
cure.  Sand so edges are fair.  Drill new holes for mounting screws which
should all be through the epoxy.  Use sealer of choice, reinstall.

No more springiness  :-)


John and Maryann
Legacy III
1982 C&C 34
Noank, CT
-Original Message-
From: OldSteveH [mailto:oldste...@sympatico.ca] 
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 8:32 PM
To: 'John and Maryann Read'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: RE: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

It's the screw-on cover over the sliding companionway hatch.
Mine is spongy to step on and it seems like it should be rigid. Am guessing
it needs core replacement?

Steve



-Original Message-
From: John and Maryann Read [mailto:johnpr...@comcast.net]
Sent: October-14-14 7:37 PM
To: 'OldSteveH'; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: RE: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

OK I'll bite - what is a spray apron??

John and Maryann
Legacy III
1982 C&C 34
Noank, CT
-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of OldSteveH
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, October 14, 2014 4:53 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List C&C 34 Spray Apron

Does anyone know if the spray apron has balsa core?
Mine feels soft, but am unsure if it just feels soft because its thin. I
don't want to remove it if that's all it is.

Thanks

Steve Hood
S/V Diamond Girl
C&C 34
Lions Head ON





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Stus-List Yanmar 2gm20 crush washers?

[Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List]

Anybody happen to know what copper crush washers to buy for Yanmar 2gm20? The 
banjo fittings on my secondary fuel filter is weeping. I'd prefer not to take 
it apart to find out since we are out on the boat so often. Like to have therm 
in hand before starting the replacement. There may be others I imagine.

Thanks
Kevin
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Stus-List Butyl Tape vs 4200: Front hatch Rebed

[Kevin Driscoll via CnC-List]

Butyl Tape or 4200? Lewmar hatch though not sure that matters. 

Thanks
Kevin
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