Re: The Path to 1.0

[Konrad Hinsen]

On 18.04.2009, at 01:13, Dan wrote:

> do you prefer to have some clojure users united against subversion,  
> or divided by Rich not having chosen their preferred DVCS  
> (Mercurial users vs Git users, not sure whether clojure needs those  
> kinds of nonsense internal wars in the community )
>
> We seem to be unanimous in preferring git.

Not at all. I am a convinced Mercurial user, for example, and I don't  
even have git installed on my machine (I do have svn). However, I  
didn't participate in this debate because I think it is pointless.  
VCS issues are as much a matter of personal preference as technical  
merit. It's Rich who does all of the commits, so it's for him to choose.

Konrad.


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Re: Executable Namespace Proposal

[Meikel Brandmeyer]

Hi,

Am 18.04.2009 um 01:16 schrieb Stephen C. Gilardi:


I have a proposal for a standard way to make a namespace "executable"
and to invoke it as a program/script.


I miss this so badly! Up to now, I always used gen-class to compile
a class with a main function to get this functionality. Since I mostly
don't do scripting in Clojure this approach worked well until yesterday.
There I needed that really badly and didn't have it


Thoughts?


Ok. You asked for it, so I will play the devil's advocate!

Why this fixing on one somehow blessed function? When the
namespace is loaded I can call any public function directly.
Why do I need (run ...)? I don't see the value of this, since run
should probably return a numeric exit code, no? While any
other function will provide eg. a map or a seq, which is probably
much more useful.

Let me bring scsh into the discussion and show how they handle
this issue. They have a command line switch to tell the scsh driver
which function to invoke after loading the script. This could also
be done for clojure.main:

java -cp .. clojure.main -E my.ns/main my-script-defining-my-ns.clj

The script does not need to be in the Classpath. As soon as it is
loaded the namespace is available. (Which brings me to the
double book-keeping of require...)

The script could be made self-contained using hashdot:

#! /usr/bin/env hashdot
;;.hashdot.main = clojure.main
;;.hashdot.args.pre = -E my-ns/main

(ns my.ns)

(defn main
  [& args]
  ...)

./my-script-defining-my-ns.clj

With this approach I can also choose different entry points for
different invokations of the same script. Although I'm not sure this
is an interesting feature.

Just some thoughts to a look a different approach.

Sincerely
Meikel



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Re: Problem using clojure.contrib.seq-utils

[synphonix]

Hello,

I have problems using seq-utils with the latest versions of clojure
and clojure-contrib.
I use clojure rev  1352 and clojure-contrib rev 675.
Using these two the first invocation of
(use 'clojure.contrib.seq-utils)
gives
java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.MultiFn.(Lclojure/lang/
IFn;Ljava/lang/Object;Lclojure/lang/IRef;)V(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
later invocations result in
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class
clojure.contrib.seq_utils__init (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)

This seems to be the cause why I cannot use compojure with the latest
versions of clojure/clojure contrib.
I poked a little in the clojure code and it seems that the changes in
MultiFn where introduced in clojure rev 1340.

Has someone seen similar problems and fixed them?

Regards

Poul
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Re: The Path to 1.0

[Konrad Hinsen]

On 18.04.2009, at 12:15, John Newman wrote:

> 2) One way to maintain Clojure's flexibility would be if it were  
> like what the kernel is to a Linux distribution.  What if every  
> distribution had to use the same standard set of packages?  The  
> Linux ecosystem is much richer today because the kernel can develop  
> somewhat independently of the applications that target it.

True, but there is still a standard set of packages (or rather  
functionalities) that all but the most specialized Linux  
distributions contain and that everybody expects to find in a  
"normal" Linux distribution. Things like the shell, ls, rm, etc.

> One way to compensate for a lack of "batteries included" might be a  
> powerful, agnostic library management solution, which allows for  
> different contrib libraries, VMs, or architectures, but that  
> definitely seems like a 2.0 feature.

That sounds like a lot of work, and it won't take care of one  
important contribution of a standard library: standardization for  
basic, well-understood tasks. It's no fun to program in an  
environment where there are three competing libraries for parsing  
HTML that differ only in function names and parameter order.

Konrad.


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Re: concurrency skeletons

[Konrad Hinsen]

On 18.04.2009, at 01:59, Raoul Duke wrote:

> anybody have experience with / opinions / thoughts / feelings on
> skeletons (design patterns) for concurrency?
>
> e.g. http://camlp3l.inria.fr/eng.htm
>
> might the approach be useful even with STM?

Yes. Skeletons are in principle no more than control flow  
abstractions, like reduce or map but more complex because of the  
parallelization aspect. An STM could be used to implement skeletons.

For a good introduction to Skeletons, look at this article:
http://www2.computer.org/portal/web/computingnow/0409/whatsnew/cise

Konrad.


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Re: The Path to 1.0

[Timothy Pratley]

I'm eager to see Clojure turn 1.0 because it is a fantastic language
that deserves to be even more popular than it already is. I believe it
is time to put the message out there that clj has made the journey
from "something to toy with" to "a serious language" or even "the next
big thing". Clojure has already reached 1.0 maturity in my eyes
because:

1) There are large projects already using it
- Luc/Stuart have already done major deployments
- I'm quite amazed at the depth of the projects you get a peek of from
the group
- Heck Itay wrote a full clj IDE in 2 months which was really slick

2) My own experience
- I used to have to svn update regularly and check the group to code
in clj, for the last 2 months I've noticed no need for that anymore
- Bug reports seem to have dried up, and I don't encounter any ever (I
encounter my own bugs regularly still!)
- No radical diversions to core being discussed

3) Core language considerations
- All 1.0 discussion has been infrastructure related; indicates people
are comfortable with how the language itself looks
- Type systems is the only lively debate I've noticed on the group in
this area, and I don't see it holding 1.0 back
- http://code.google.com/p/clojure/issues/list is quite boring these
days :P

4) JVM safety net
- I don't think anyone can claim "I can't do X in Clojure"

Many important items and insightful observations have been discussed
in this thread which I totally agree need to be pursued with due
vigor. To my mind however Clojure is ready and the most important
priority is to hand out the party poppers and novelty hats. Well done
Rich and core contributors, I hope you choose to stamp 1.0 sooner than
later [obviously when you feel comfortable with that] :)


Regards,
Tim.


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Re: The Path to 1.0

[John Newman]

Well, perhaps if str-utils becomes the universal standard for string
operations, it would be rolled into Clojure come 2.0?

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Konrad Hinsen wrote:

>
> On 18.04.2009, at 12:15, John Newman wrote:
>
> > 2) One way to maintain Clojure's flexibility would be if it were
> > like what the kernel is to a Linux distribution.  What if every
> > distribution had to use the same standard set of packages?  The
> > Linux ecosystem is much richer today because the kernel can develop
> > somewhat independently of the applications that target it.
>
> True, but there is still a standard set of packages (or rather
> functionalities) that all but the most specialized Linux
> distributions contain and that everybody expects to find in a
> "normal" Linux distribution. Things like the shell, ls, rm, etc.
>
> > One way to compensate for a lack of "batteries included" might be a
> > powerful, agnostic library management solution, which allows for
> > different contrib libraries, VMs, or architectures, but that
> > definitely seems like a 2.0 feature.
>
> That sounds like a lot of work, and it won't take care of one
> important contribution of a standard library: standardization for
> basic, well-understood tasks. It's no fun to program in an
> environment where there are three competing libraries for parsing
> HTML that differ only in function names and parameter order.
>
> Konrad.
>
>
> >
>


-- 
John

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Re: Problem using clojure.contrib.seq-utils

[Meikel Brandmeyer]

Hi,

Am 18.04.2009 um 12:17 schrieb synphonix:

java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.MultiFn.(Lclojure/ 
lang/

IFn;Ljava/lang/Object;Lclojure/lang/IRef;)V(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
later invocations result in
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class
clojure.contrib.seq_utils__init (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)

Has someone seen similar problems and fixed them?


Ant cleaning your clojure-contrib build and recompiling
everything should fix your problem.

Sincerely
Meikel



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Re: The Path to 1.0

[John Newman]

> I do not agree with John Newman that the Java standard library
> should be the Clojure standard library.
>

I'm not saying that.  I'm saying that:

1) Requiring Java's standard library on every system is unfortunate enough
-- it's too big for some of the smaller devices coming out now. And,

2) One way to maintain Clojure's flexibility would be if it were like what
the kernel is to a Linux distribution.  What if every distribution had to
use the same standard set of packages?  The Linux ecosystem is much richer
today because the kernel can develop somewhat independently of the
applications that target it.

Eventually, clojure-contrib will be much much larger than clojure the
language.  If clojure-contrib is Clojure's "standard", most of the work
involved in developing "Clojure 2.0" won't be in core but in hammering on
contrib.  If that's what people want then great. It just seems like a less
flexible solution to me.

One way to compensate for a lack of "batteries included" might be a
powerful, agnostic library management solution, which allows for different
contrib libraries, VMs, or architectures, but that definitely seems like a
2.0 feature.

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 1:51 AM, Tom Faulhaber wrote:

>
> Tom's 2 cents:
>
> I think Clojure is basically ready to go to 1.0. I like the idea of
> having a book about Clojure 1.0 go hand in hand with the release.
>
> While I agree that the library management problem is too hard for a
> 1.0 release (and also largely separable), it would be nice to see the
> software version number (e.g. 1.0.0) and the subversion number (e.g.
> r1352) in the built clojure.jar somewhere that's easily accessible to
> tools that are trying to do library management. My solution to this
> would probably just be to generate a couple of (def *clojure-version-
> number* "1.0.0") things as part of the build. Do any Java/Maven heads
> have more sophisticated ideas that we should consider here? I've just
> started hacking on some svn manipulation stuff (and a little bit of
> jar manipulation) in the process of doing my contrib autodoc robot, so
> I'd be happy to help here too.
>
> While I agree that "what is clojure.contrib?" is a pretty big issue, I
> think we could leave it a little fuzzy for a while longer. One thing
> we should probably do is do a real comparison of how we stack up
> against python's "batteries included" model and see how we need to
> address that. (To my mind, the python library has always felt very ad
> hoc.) I do not agree with John Newman that the Java standard library
> should be the Clojure standard library. There's enough that's
> different in Clojure that I think we do want some of our own ways to
> approach things. I think there's also space for some great documents
> (& screencasts, etc.) that show how to leverage parts of the Java
> library to do cool things in Clojure. (Rich's demo of building swing
> apps in Clojure comes to mind.)
>
> I'd also like to see a little more focus on the perl/python/ruby
> equivalence from a newbie perspective. That is, more clarity around
> startup, script execution (including having an equivalent to python's
> "if  __name__ == '__main__':" construct), class path management, etc.
> I know that this is one area where being in the JVM ecosystem makes
> our life worse rather than better, but approaching Clojure is still a
> bit daunting compared to these other languages.
>
> You can count me among the git fanboys, but I can't get too worked up
> about moving off google code right now (and that would be necessary if
> we switched to git). (Aside to Matt Revelle: You can use git-svn on
> the client side (and I do) but that provides only a local solution, so
> it isn't a magic bullet.)
>
> Really, we all know that 1.0 means 1.0. Clojure will be much further
> along than most other languages at their 1.0 point, so I wouldn't
> stress over it too much.
>
> I think that might have been 6 cents worth :-).
>
> Tom
>
>
> >
>


-- 
John

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Re: Problem using clojure.contrib.seq-utils

[synphonix]

Hi Meikel,

I did that already and it did not help. I also explictly unset my
CLASSPATH env in the shell from which I start ant (just to be sure)
and checked that the "clojure.jar" property in clojure-contrib's
build.xml is correct.
I do not see this behavior when I switch clojure to svn rev 1339.

Regards

Poul

Meikel Brandmeyer schrieb:
> Hi,
>
> Am 18.04.2009 um 12:17 schrieb synphonix:
>
> > java.lang.NoSuchMethodError: clojure.lang.MultiFn.(Lclojure/
> > lang/
> > IFn;Ljava/lang/Object;Lclojure/lang/IRef;)V(NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
> > later invocations result in
> > java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: Could not initialize class
> > clojure.contrib.seq_utils__init (NO_SOURCE_FILE:0)
> >
> > Has someone seen similar problems and fixed them?
>
> Ant cleaning your clojure-contrib build and recompiling
> everything should fix your problem.
>
> Sincerely
> Meikel
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#(%) error in map

[Michael Hunger]

I tried to use an anonymous function in map but it didn't work.

user=> (map #(%) '(1 2 3))
java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to 
clojure.lang.IFn

but with a normal anonymous function it works as expected:

user=> (map (fn [x] x) '(1 2 3))
(1 2 3)

Thanks
Michael

P.S. As I'm quite fresh to FP and clojure - is there some place where one can 
show / upload code examples and get some 
hints / help for improving them?

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Re: #(%) error in map

[Laurent PETIT]

Hello, what you want here is identity :

(map identity (list 1 2 3))

Regards,

-- 
Laurent

2009/4/18 Michael Hunger 

>
> I tried to use an anonymous function in map but it didn't work.
>
> user=> (map #(%) '(1 2 3))
> java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to
> clojure.lang.IFn
>
> but with a normal anonymous function it works as expected:
>
> user=> (map (fn [x] x) '(1 2 3))
> (1 2 3)
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>
> P.S. As I'm quite fresh to FP and clojure - is there some place where one
> can show / upload code examples and get some
> hints / help for improving them?
>
> >
>

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Re: #(%) error in map

[Michael Hunger]

I think my misconception was not the missing identiy fun but rather that the 
first element in the list is the function 
that is evaluated.
so #(%) is trying to evaluate whatever % evaluates to, e.g. (1) and therefore 
there is the
java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to 
clojure.lang.IFn

that also happens with #((+ % 1))

But you're right, identity helps there as well.
#(identity (+ % 1)) works :)

Thanks

Michael

P.S.
What about the second question? Is there some place one can get feedback to 
functional code samples of a learner?


Am 18.04.2009 14:14 Uhr, schrieb Laurent PETIT:
> (map identity (list 1 2 3))


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Re: The Path to 1.0

[Isak Hansen]

On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 6:53 PM, Rich Hickey  wrote:
>
> Feedback welcome,
>

1. I'd like to see a road map of sorts; plans for where Clojure will
be going with the next couple of releases.

2. Clojure-contrib -cleanup
 - Move the clojure test suite to clojure itself
 - Move 'worthy' libraries from contrib to the standard library?
 - Make ClojureCLR and clojurescipt separate projects with their own
branches and so on.

3. I'd like to see the clojure source hooked up to some CI system,
along the lines of .


I know it's not a vote, but I use git as well.


> Rich
>
> >
>

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Re: Executable Namespace Proposal

[Stephen C. Gilardi]

On Apr 18, 2009, at 5:24 AM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:


Ok. You asked for it, so I will play the devil's advocate!

Why this fixing on one somehow blessed function? When the
namespace is loaded I can call any public function directly.
Why do I need (run ...)? I don't see the value of this, since run
should probably return a numeric exit code, no? While any
other function will provide eg. a map or a seq, which is probably
much more useful.


From within Clojure you can call any function you like. The purpose  
of this function is to bridge the gap between the shell and Clojure  
while still being reasonably callable from within Clojure. At the  
command line all we have for arguments are strings and all we can  
return is integer status.


The purpose of marking a function as "the one to call when invoking  
the script" is to allow clojure.main to call the namespace as a  
program by naming only the namespace. The purpose of making it a  
standard interface (strings in, integer status out, use streams for  
anything else) is that we can call it that way easily from either the  
command line or from within Clojure. It's an interface that's been  
tried and true for many years in Unix tools and in Java's "public  
static void main (String[] args)" (modulo the return code issue being  
different between the two.



Let me bring scsh into the discussion and show how they handle
this issue. They have a command line switch to tell the scsh driver
which function to invoke after loading the script. This could also
be done for clojure.main:

java -cp .. clojure.main -E my.ns/main my-script-defining-my-ns.clj


I'm trying to make this kind of command line easier to use and  
explain. We basically already have what you're proposing:


java -cp .. clojure.main -i my-script-defining-my-ns.clj -e "(my.ns/ 
main *command-line-args*)"


Contrast that to what I'm proposing:

java -cp .. clojure.main my.ns

I still like mine, but an alternative of specifying the function  
directly and then calling it with the rest of the args as strings and  
returning the int it returns would also be succinct and perhaps even  
clearer:


java -cp .. clojure.main my.ns/main


The script does not need to be in the Classpath. As soon as it is
loaded the namespace is available. (Which brings me to the
double book-keeping of require...)


I'd rather have it in classpath. What is the "double book-keeping of  
require..."



The script could be made self-contained using hashdot:

#! /usr/bin/env hashdot
;;.hashdot.main = clojure.main
;;.hashdot.args.pre = -E my-ns/main

(ns my.ns)

(defn main
 [& args]
 ...)

./my-script-defining-my-ns.clj

With this approach I can also choose different entry points for
different invokations of the same script. Although I'm not sure this
is an interesting feature.


I'm not sure it's interesting either, but the idea of invoking a  
Clojure *function* as a "program" rather than a Clojure namespace or  
file is a good one I think.



Just some thoughts to a look a different approach.


Thanks very much.

--Steve



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Re: #(%) error in map

[Laurent PETIT]

2009/4/18 Michael Hunger 

>
> I tried to use an anonymous function in map but it didn't work.
>
> user=> (map #(%) '(1 2 3))
> java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to
> clojure.lang.IFn
>
> but with a normal anonymous function it works as expected:
>
> user=> (map (fn [x] x) '(1 2 3))
> (1 2 3)
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>
> P.S. As I'm quite fresh to FP and clojure - is there some place where one
> can show / upload code examples and get some
> hints / help for improving them?
>

I guess #clojure on IRC,

HTH,

-- 
Laurent


>
> >
>

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Re: Problem using clojure.contrib.seq-utils

[Meikel Brandmeyer]

Hi,

Am 18.04.2009 um 13:29 schrieb synphonix:


I did that already and it did not help. I also explictly unset my
CLASSPATH env in the shell from which I start ant (just to be sure)
and checked that the "clojure.jar" property in clojure-contrib's
build.xml is correct.
I do not see this behavior when I switch clojure to svn rev 1339.


Hmm.. The error your get means, that something wantst to call
a constructor which is only available in rev <= 1339. That means,
that this something is a compiled piece of Clojure code, which
was compiled with a revision <= 1339. Hence it works with older
revisions.

The constructor of c.l.MultiFn is only called by the defmulti macro.
That means that there is somewhere a compiled piece of code,
which should not be there. Try removing the classes directory of
your contrib and rebuild the whole tree. If that really doesn't help
do this also with clojure itself to make sure, that you have clean
build.

Sincerely
Meikel



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Re: #(%) error in map

[Meikel Brandmeyer]

Hi,

Am 18.04.2009 um 14:32 schrieb Michael Hunger:


that also happens with #((+ % 1))


#(%) is equivalent to (fn [x] (x)). So giving an integer as argument
will basically to call an integer => *BOOM*. As you correctly noted.

#((+ % 1)) will be transformed to (fn [x] ((+ x 1))) and again you
will be trying to call an integer, because (+ x 1) is integer if x is
one.

Your problem are actually the double parens! #(+ % 1) is equivalent
to (fn [x] (+ x 1)) and will work as you expect.

Sincerely
Meikel



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Re: Executable Namespace Proposal

[Meikel Brandmeyer]

Hi,

Am 18.04.2009 um 14:34 schrieb Stephen C. Gilardi:


java -cp .. clojure.main -E my.ns/main my-script-defining-my-ns.clj


I'm trying to make this kind of command line easier to use and  
explain. We basically already have what you're proposing:


java -cp .. clojure.main -i my-script-defining-my-ns.clj -e "(my.ns/ 
main *command-line-args*)"


I tried to make this work with hashdot, but then the script is read  
twice

because I have to specify it as -i script and it will be passed again as
additional parameter to clojure.main.

The problem is, that -e works before reading the script and but hashdot
doesn't provide a hashdot.args.post. Then I could construct a header
like:

#! /usr/bin/env hashdot
;;.hashdot.main = clojure.main
;;.hashdot.args.pre = -i
;;.hashdot.args.post = -e "(my.ns/main)"

Just the usual great-tools-but-still-not-perfect issue. This could be  
either
"fixed" in hashdot or clojure.main. So it's not a problem of either.  
It's mine

wanting to combine the two tools...

I still like mine, but an alternative of specifying the function  
directly and then calling it with the rest of the args as strings  
and returning the int it returns would also be succinct and perhaps  
even clearer:


java -cp .. clojure.main my.ns/main


Now, that would be cool. Although it would still rule out hashdot,
since this passes the script on as additional argument. Could I
convince you to have an optional -E to allow the use of tools like
hashdot?

I'd rather have it in classpath. What is the "double book-keeping of  
require..."


(ns foo.bar)
(in-ns 'user)
(require 'foo.bar)

This loads foo.bar again, although it already exists and I did not
specify the :reload argument. I ran into this some while ago
with a gen-class'd Class. It was I somewhat convoluted setup
which I don't remember any more, but it took me some time to
figure out, that require doesn't care for all-ns and keeps its own
set of namespaces. This I would call double book-keeping.


Thanks very much.


Thanks for your great contributions, Stephen. In particular
the require/use system and clojure.main. :)

Sincerely
Meikel



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Help writing a lazy version of this Choose function.

[CuppoJava]

Hi,
I just wrote a very small combinatorics utility for myself. Choose. It
is given a vector of elements, followed by a number that indicates how
many elements to "choose" out of the vector. It returns all possible
combinations of choosing  elements out of  while retaining the
correct order.

I hit a snag though, I'm getting lots of OutOfMemory errors because of
the use of mapcat, which doesn't seem to be lazy. Can I have some help
writing this into a lazy function?

Thanks a lot
  -Patrick

(defn choose [v num]
  (if (zero? num)
  []
  (mapcat (fn [i]
  (let [n (nth v i)]
   (map #(conj % n) (choose (nthrest v (inc i))
(dec num)
  (range (count v)
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Re: Improving clojure.jar/clojure-contrib.jar compression (ClassLoader alternatives)

[kevin]

You can use java's pack200 tool to compress your jar down quite a bit:

http://java.sun.com/j2se/1.5.0/docs/tooldocs/share/pack200.html

I haven't tried it yet, but this ClassLoader that will decompress the
pack200 archive into a temp directory before loading the classes.

http://scala.sygneca.com/code/compressed-executable-jar

Kevin

On Apr 17, 7:37 pm, Stuart Sierra  wrote:
> On Apr 17, 7:36 pm, "Dimiter \"malkia\" Stanev" 
> wrote:
>
> > Is there any alternative (ClassLoader?) to store the .class files in a
> > different compressed format?.NET can store lots of classes in one
> > assembly? Is there something like that for JVM?
>
> ClassLoaders can do almost anything, including load classes via HTTP,
> so I expect it would be possible to write a custom ClassLoader that
> uses a different compression format (like tar.gz).  But it wouldn't
> necessarily be easy.  ZIP is convenient because it permits random
> access to any file within the archive, which tar does not.
>
> Here's an (old) article with a related 
> example:http://www.javaworld.com/javaworld/jw-04-2000/jw-0421-zipclass.html
>
> -Stuart Sierra
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Re: Standard startup script?

[e]

i wonder if others would think it'd be interesting to integrate clojure with
http://jamvm.sourceforge.net/

... maybe fork the project so that running a clj file feels exactly like
running a py file ... embed the jvm in an exe.

Maybe others like the fact that it works on top of any jvm, but I think it
increases the bar for getting non-java newbies.  Not everyone wants to have
to install a large jvm from sun and write start up scripts before they can
get started.
2009/4/17 e 

> it was kind of annoying, at first, to have to type up the startup script
> myself from the "getting started" wiki page (or cut-n-paste).  Seemed like
> it should have come with the download, but once I dedicated some time to it,
> it was ok.  Netbeans plugin, I think, was a good substitute when I just
> wanted to dive in, but then I didn't really get what was going on, per se.
> In the end, I now think it was good to walk through the getting started
> page.  It's like clojure comes as a "kit car".  Then when you are driving
> it, you have a better chance of having some idea how to pop the hood and
> tinker.
>
> On the other hand, I don't think this would appeal to potential python
> converts who can install python, and five seconds later, and two lines of
> code learn how to write a script to untar/unzip a file.  In that particular
> case I think it was awesome that there was such an easy work-around to
> windows not coming with a way to untar/unzip out of the box.  Easier to
> install python and do it than any other solution, I found.  No admin rights
> needed, no separate jvm/jdk/IDE download, etc.
>
> 2009/4/17 Mark Volkmann 
>
>
>> On Thu, Apr 16, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Marko Kocić 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I have seen various scripts to start clojure in the net. Everyone
>> > seems to have its favourite, even contrib has one. Also, there are a
>> > lot of questions what is the "bestest" way to invoke clojure, how to
>> > start REPL, how to run script, compile file, should it be used with
>> > server or client VM.
>> >
>> > Do you think it would be benefitial to have such script included as
>> > part of standard clojure?
>>
>> I think this would be beneficial, especially for beginners.
>>
>> --
>> R. Mark Volkmann
>> Object Computing, Inc.
>>
>> >>
>>
>

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Re: Problem using clojure.contrib.seq-utils

[Michael Wood]

I was having trouble building clojure-contrib after having updated
both clojure and clojure-contrib.  Clojure was already at HEAD.

I have a habit of running "ant clean" before compiling.

When I tried to build clojure-contrib, I was getting a stack trace,
which was complaining about "get-method".  I tried reverting the last
checkin to clojure-contrib and that appeared to fix it.  Then I tried
compiling the latest revisions of clojure and clojure-contrib on
another machine (using Java 1.5 vs. 1.6 on the machine I was having a
problem on) and it worked.

So I updated to the latest revision of clojure-contrib again, then got
rid of anything reported by "svn st --no-ignore" as ignored or unknown
and rebuilt clojure and then clojure-contrib.

Now it's working.  Not sure what was causing the problem, but making
sure the working copies were clean fixed it.

-- 
Michael Wood 

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Re: #(%) error in map

[Michael Wood]

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 2:52 AM, Michael Hunger  wrote:
>
> I tried to use an anonymous function in map but it didn't work.
>
> user=> (map #(%) '(1 2 3))
> java.lang.ClassCastException: java.lang.Integer cannot be cast to 
> clojure.lang.IFn
>
> but with a normal anonymous function it works as expected:

Others have already explained why this happens.

If you really want to do something like that, then you can use "do" to
get rid of the effect of the implicit parentheses:

(map #(do %) '(1 2 3))

Also, since Clojure has first class vectors, you may as well use them
instead of having to quote your literal lists:

(map identity [1 2 3])

[...]
> P.S. As I'm quite fresh to FP and clojure - is there some place where one can 
> show / upload code examples and get some
> hints / help for improving them?

If you don't want to ask here, you could try http://www.lispforum.com/

Although I think there are more Common Lisp people there than Clojure
people, they are quite helpful with newbie Common Lisp questions :)  I
don't think anyone's posted a Clojure code question there yet.

-- 
Michael Wood 

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Updated clojure-pom (now even simpler to use with emacs)

[dysinger]

http://github.com/dysinger/clojure-pom/tree/master

I found a way to unpack dependencies and added a function (see README)
for emacs that sets up the classpath for a maven/clojure project.
This way you can add dependencies with maven and not have to
restart your slime session..

Since maven & slime can handle setting up the dependency/classpaths
now, there is no longer a need to generate a repl script (so the poms
are even shorter).

In emacs you can now type:

M-x clj-mvn-project "/The/Path/To/Mah/Awesome/Sauce/Project"
M-x slime

and emacs will do it's thing, starting a slime session with all the
right things in place.

-Tim

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Re: Updated clojure-pom (now even simpler to use with emacs)

[dysinger]

Sorry that is clj-mvn-proj not clj-mvn-project

On Apr 18, 9:12 am, dysinger  wrote:
> http://github.com/dysinger/clojure-pom/tree/master
>
> I found a way to unpack dependencies and added a function (see README)
> for emacs that sets up the classpath for a maven/clojure project.
> This way you can add dependencies with maven and not have to
> restart your slime session..
>
> Since maven & slime can handle setting up the dependency/classpaths
> now, there is no longer a need to generate a repl script (so the poms
> are even shorter).
>
> In emacs you can now type:
>
> M-x clj-mvn-project "/The/Path/To/Mah/Awesome/Sauce/Project"
> M-x slime
>
> and emacs will do it's thing, starting a slime session with all the
> right things in place.
>
> -Tim
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On Stuart's Book

[George Jahad]

Hey StuartH:

I finally got around to buying your book yesterday.  The thing that
finally sold me was Rich's email about how important your book was.
Without that, I wouldn't have considered paying for it, with so much
other clojure material available on the web.

I think it would be a good idea for you to prominently display this
paragraph from Rich's forward on the book's web page:

What is so thrilling about Stuarts book is the extent to which he gets
Clojure, because the language is targeted to professional developers
just like himself. He clearly has enough experience of the pain points
Clojure addresses, as well as an appreciation of its pragmatic
approach.
This book is an enthusiastic tour of the key features of Clojure, well
grounded in practical applications, with gentle introductions to what
might be new concepts. I hope it inspires you to write software in
Clojure
that you can look back at and say âNot only does this do the job,
but it does so in a robust and simple way, and writing it was fun too!
Rich Hickey
Creator of Clojure

I'll start reading it in the next few days and let you know what I
think.

George Jahad

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Re: On Stuart's Book

[Rayne]

So you want him to write something that Rich hasn't said on his
website to market his book? :\ If not you're going to clarify a bit.

I wish Stuart would have open sourced the book, like Real World
Haskell did. Would have done all kinds of good for the language. But
each to his own and Stuart rocks for even writing the book. :D

On Apr 18, 1:02 pm, George Jahad  wrote:
> Hey StuartH:
>
> I finally got around to buying your book yesterday.  The thing that
> finally sold me was Rich's email about how important your book was.
> Without that, I wouldn't have considered paying for it, with so much
> other clojure material available on the web.
>
> I think it would be a good idea for you to prominently display this
> paragraph from Rich's forward on the book's web page:
>
> What is so thrilling about Stuarts book is the extent to which he gets
> Clojure, because the language is targeted to professional developers
> just like himself. He clearly has enough experience of the pain points
> Clojure addresses, as well as an appreciation of its pragmatic
> approach.
> This book is an enthusiastic tour of the key features of Clojure, well
> grounded in practical applications, with gentle introductions to what
> might be new concepts. I hope it inspires you to write software in
> Clojure
> that you can look back at and say âNot only does this do the job,
> but it does so in a robust and simple way, and writing it was fun too!
> Rich Hickey
> Creator of Clojure
>
> I'll start reading it in the next few days and let you know what I
> think.
>
> George Jahad
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Re: The Path to 1.0

[Antony Blakey]

On 18/04/2009, at 5:38 PM, Konrad Hinsen wrote:

>
> On 18.04.2009, at 01:13, Dan wrote:
>
>> do you prefer to have some clojure users united against subversion,
>> or divided by Rich not having chosen their preferred DVCS
>> (Mercurial users vs Git users, not sure whether clojure needs those
>> kinds of nonsense internal wars in the community )
>>
>> We seem to be unanimous in preferring git.
>
> Not at all. I am a convinced Mercurial user, for example, and I don't
> even have git installed on my machine (I do have svn). However, I
> didn't participate in this debate because I think it is pointless.
> VCS issues are as much a matter of personal preference as technical
> merit. It's Rich who does all of the commits, so it's for him to  
> choose.

That's not the case for contrib.

If Rich is the only committer *and contributor* to core, then it's a  
moot point what VCS is used for core.

Antony Blakey
-
CTO, Linkuistics Pty Ltd
Ph: 0438 840 787

A Buddhist walks up to a hot-dog stand and says, "Make me one with  
everything". He then pays the vendor and asks for change. The vendor  
says, "Change comes from within".




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Re: On Stuart's Book

[Antony Blakey]

On 19/04/2009, at 8:08 AM, Rayne wrote:

>
> So you want him to write something that Rich hasn't said on his
> website to market his book? :\

But Rich has written that - it's from Rich's forward to Stuart's book.  
Am I misunderstanding your point?

Antony Blakey
-
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Ph: 0438 840 787

Nothing is really work unless you would rather be doing something else.
   -- J. M. Barre



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Re: Help writing a lazy version of this Choose function.

[Laurent PETIT]

Hello,

It seems that the recursive call to choose is too eager.

I had a problem with your version (which seems to be using a pre lazy-seq
version) where nthrest still existed (?).

But I rewrote something along the lines of what you did, and had first the
same problem.
Wrapping the recursive call with lazy-seq seemed to solve it.

Here is my final (apparently) working version :

(defn rests [coll]
  "returns a lazy seq of coll, (rest coll), (rest (rest coll)) ..."
  (lazy-seq
(when-let  [s (seq coll)]
  (cons s (rests (rest s))

(defn choose [v n]
  (cond
(zero? n)
  []
(= 1 n)
  (map vector v)
:else
  (mapcat (fn [sub]
(map #(concat [(first sub)] %)
 (lazy-seq (choose (rest sub) (dec n)
  (rests v
(count (choose [1 2 3 4 5 6] 3))
(take 10 (choose (iterate inc 0) 500))

HTH,

-- 
Laurent

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Re: On Stuart's Book

[Michael Wood]

On Sun, Apr 19, 2009 at 1:30 AM, Antony Blakey  wrote:
>
> On 19/04/2009, at 8:08 AM, Rayne wrote:
>
>>
>> So you want him to write something that Rich hasn't said on his
>> website to market his book? :\
>
> But Rich has written that - it's from Rich's forward to Stuart's book.
> Am I misunderstanding your point?

I suspect he misread the message.  It may (or may not) have helped if
it had been spelt "foreword" instead of "forward", though.

-- 
Michael Wood 

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Re: Help writing a lazy version of this Choose function.

[CuppoJava]

Wow, that works great. Thanks a lot for your help Laurent.

Can you think of any reason why mapcat isn't lazy by default though?
I'm wondering if this is by design, or simply because we haven't had
the time to update all the library functions to be fully lazy yet.

  -Patrick
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Monad mod

[jim]

Konrad,

Love your monad library, but somethings always bothered me. The monad
functions like m-seq, m-lift, etc. were macros so they couldn't be
applied, passed as parameters. I'm impressed you were able to
implement them using macros.

While working on an unrelated thing, I had a flash of inspiration and
implemented with-monad as below. This makes all those functions actual
function objects. What do you think?

Jim

http://groups.google.com/group/clojure/web/with-monad.clj
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Help Improving Game Of Life in clojure

[Michael Hunger]

As I'm currently trying to learn clojure I wrote a game of life to get a 
feeling for the concepts.
It would be great if some of you could point out areas for improvement or 
unused idioms or patterns.

Thanks alot

Michael

here is the code:
(ns gol)
(comment "a board only contains the coordinates of living cells")

(def matrix #{[-1 -1] [-1 0] [-1 1] [0 -1] [0 0] [0 1] [1 -1] [1 0] [1 1]})

(def size 3)

(defn neighbours
   "All direct neighbours around [pos] and pos itself"
   [pos]
   (defn translate [[x y]] [(+ x (first pos)) (+ y (second pos))])
   (map translate matrix)
)

(defn alive
   "is pos alive in the next turn"
   [pos board]
   (defn count-living [cnt p] (if (contains? board p) (inc cnt) cnt))
   (defn gets-a-life [living-neighbours]
 (or (and (not (contains? board pos)) (= living-neighbours 3))
(and (contains? board pos) (contains? #{3 4} living-neighbours)))
 )
   (gets-a-life (reduce count-living 0 (neighbours pos)))
   )

(defn all-neighbours
 "all direct neighbours of all living cells on the board"
  [size board]
  (defn on-board [[x y]] (and (>= x 0) (< x size) (>= y 0) (< y size)))
  (set (filter on-board (mapcat #(neighbours %) board)))
)

(defn next-board
   "calculates the new board"
   ([board] (next-board size board))
   ([bsize board]
  (let [
new-board (map
   (fn [[x y]] (if (alive [x y] board) [x y] nil))
   (all-neighbours bsize board))
]
 (set (filter #(not (nil? %)) new-board
   )

(defn to-string
 "creates a string representation of a board"
 ([board] (to-string size board))
 ([bsize board]
   (def axis (range bsize))
   (reduce
(fn [text x]
(str text (reduce
(fn [text y]
(str text (if (contains? board [x y]) "#" "_"))
)
"" axis)
 "\n")) "" axis)))

(defn time-it
 "calculates a board of a certain size n times and prints the time"
 [cnt size board]
   (time (loop [x cnt
   b board]
   (if (zero? x) (to-string b)
   (recur (dec x) (next-board size b)
)

(def start-board #{[0 0] [1 1] [0 1] [2 2]})

(defn demo
"runs a simple board 10 times"
[]
(map
  #(println (to-string %))
  (take 10 (iterate next-board start-board))
))


(defn next-board-old
 "old version that evaluated the whole board"
 ([board] (next-board size board))
 ([bsize board]
   (let [
   axis (range bsize)
   new-board (map (fn [x] (map (fn [y] (if (alive [x y] board) [x y] nil)) 
axis)) axis)
   ]
   (set (filter #(not (nil? %)) (mapcat (fn [x] x) new-board
   )
)


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IFn?

[tmountain]

Sorry for the newbie question, but can someone tell me what IFn means
exactly? I keep running into it in the docs particularly in the
keyword documentation, and Google has yet to expain.

Thanks,
Travis
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Re: IFn?

[Kevin Downey]

ifn? returns true for things that implement clojure.lang.IFn, IFn is
the interface for things that can be put in the operator position in a
s-expr:
functions
vectors
maps
sets
keywords
symbols
...?

fn? returns true for just functions

On Sat, Apr 18, 2009 at 9:37 PM, tmountain  wrote:
>
> Sorry for the newbie question, but can someone tell me what IFn means
> exactly? I keep running into it in the docs particularly in the
> keyword documentation, and Google has yet to expain.
>
> Thanks,
> Travis
> >
>



-- 
And what is good, Phaedrus,
And what is not good—
Need we ask anyone to tell us these things?

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Re: The Path to 1.0

[Tom Faulhaber]

On Apr 18, 3:15 am, John Newman  wrote:
> > I do not agree with John Newman that the Java standard library
> > should be the Clojure standard library.
>
> I'm not saying that.  I'm saying that:
>

John, I misunderstood what you were trying to say. My apologies!

There seems to be some agreement that the current contrib is not well-
defined and probably not the best long-term solution. I don't think
that it was meant to be. Most of us seem to agree that, while this is
important, it shouldn't stop us for going to 1.0. At the same time, we
should continue working this issue as a community.
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Re: On Stuart's Book

[George Jahad]

On Apr 18, 3:38 pm, Rayne  wrote:
> So you want him to write something that Rich hasn't said on his
> website to market his book? :\ If not you're going to clarify a bit.
>

Rayne, I think you are getting stuck on the very point I was.  It
feels very odd paying for Stuarts book, when Rich has done so much and
I've not given him a dime.

It's only because Rich is strongly encouraging the book that I
purchased it, and I suspect I'm not the only person with that
discomfort, so I suggested that Stuart add Rich's recommendation to
his web page, to alleviate that issue.

Just my two cents.

g
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