[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition
Ken, This discussion does my geezer's heart good. I used to maintain Honeywell mainframes in the late 1970s, some of which had core memories. Tapping them on the floor wasn't an option since they were such huge beasties but they did have space for spare bits. I've swapped to the spare bits or replaced sense amps to fix many a core problem. Something I'll never forget is the way the power supplies "sang" when running memory diagnostics on the core units. I could always tell the diagnostic was done when the singing stopped. - Rod > On Apr 24, 2023, at 2:11 PM, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > > David, > > I could tell you I had an experience where I had a stuck bit in core memory. > > It was in a trunk frame in a #2ESS AIS. > > I removed the core package and tapped it on the floor, reinserted it and > the trouble cleared. > > Sticky bit! Ha > > I only knew that because it happened to me on my old PDP-8/I.. > > Ken > > > On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 1:50 PM David Gesswein via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:11:35AM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> On 23/04/2023 22:52, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: Pete, Did the 8E have core or solid state memory? >>> >>> It had both, but I didn't put the core boards in the dishwasher. I >> figured >>> they might be too delicate for that, so I rinsed them by hand in the >> kitchen >>> sink. >>> >>> I should have said that in my original post. >>> >> >> I assume your referring to the core electronics boards and didn't wash the >> core plane. >> >> I've never used the dishwasher. I've hand washed R, W, G and M type boards >> in >> sink with dish soap and soft bristle brush, rinsed, then blew off with >> air compressor, then finish dry with fan. For pots and other >> components that I wasn't sure how well they were sealed I used damp brush >> or >> cloth around them. Rest got dunked. No obvious issues from washing. >> > > > -- > End of line > JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey
[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition
Ken, Core places being hand wired amazed me as well. The maintenance panels on the Honeywell mainframes were hand wired as well. They were works of art with lots of toggle switches and lights (the later models switched to LEDs). I could see most of the internal registers using a fancy scroll wheel to select what register the lights should show. I could also enter small diagnostic programs and single step through them using the panel. Most of our core memories were 256K of 36 bit words (with a few spares for each location). They took up lots of floor space. I suspect the fact that the power supplies had to drive that much equipment was what made them sing. - Rod > On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:25 AM, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: > > Rod, > > Never heard the singing. Switch room's were too noisy. > > It always amazed me that those core planes were hand wired. I guess by > little people. Or, big people with little hands. > > On the PDP 8/I they were 4K plug in affairs. > > Ken > > > On Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 9:14 AM Rod Bartlett via cctalk > wrote: > >> Ken, >> >> This discussion does my geezer's heart good. >> >> I used to maintain Honeywell mainframes in the late 1970s, some of which >> had core memories. Tapping them on the floor wasn't an option since they >> were such huge beasties but they did have space for spare bits. I've >> swapped to the spare bits or replaced sense amps to fix many a core >> problem. Something I'll never forget is the way the power supplies "sang" >> when running memory diagnostics on the core units. I could always tell the >> diagnostic was done when the singing stopped. >> >> - Rod >> >>> On Apr 24, 2023, at 2:11 PM, KenUnix via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> David, >>> >>> I could tell you I had an experience where I had a stuck bit in core >> memory. >>> >>> It was in a trunk frame in a #2ESS AIS. >>> >>> I removed the core package and tapped it on the floor, reinserted it and >>> the trouble cleared. >>> >>> Sticky bit! Ha >>> >>> I only knew that because it happened to me on my old PDP-8/I.. >>> >>> Ken >>> >>> >>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 1:50 PM David Gesswein via cctalk < >>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:11:35AM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>>>> On 23/04/2023 22:52, KenUnix via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> Pete, >>>>>> >>>>>> Did the 8E have core or solid state memory? >>>>> >>>>> It had both, but I didn't put the core boards in the dishwasher. I >>>> figured >>>>> they might be too delicate for that, so I rinsed them by hand in the >>>> kitchen >>>>> sink. >>>>> >>>>> I should have said that in my original post. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I assume your referring to the core electronics boards and didn't wash >> the >>>> core plane. >>>> >>>> I've never used the dishwasher. I've hand washed R, W, G and M type >> boards >>>> in >>>> sink with dish soap and soft bristle brush, rinsed, then blew off with >>>> air compressor, then finish dry with fan. For pots and other >>>> components that I wasn't sure how well they were sealed I used damp >> brush >>>> or >>>> cloth around them. Rest got dunked. No obvious issues from washing. >>>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> End of line >>> JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey >> >>
[cctalk] Re: Disk-pack-based drives at LCM
I can't say I blame them. It was a lot of work to get a drive running after a head crash. If it was a bad crash, there could be extensive cleaning to be done followed by replacing one or more heads. Then the new heads had to be aligned. If you hadn't cleaned thoroughly enough, you risked damaging the expensive alignment disk. Once I came back from lunch to see the operators had 3 drives open. They kept swapping a disk pack which was giving I/O errors to new drives and were crashing heads along the way due to the damaged disk pack. I stopped them before they spun up the pack on a 4th drive. That wasn't as bad as the time one of them dropped a disk pack and bent platters. That ripped heads completely out of the mounting mechanism. Ah, the good old days! Rod > On Jun 2, 2023, at 2:51 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk > wrote: > > Hi all, > > I just came across pictures on the LCM website about their SDS Sigma > installation there. > On the pictures, one can see 10-platter disk packs in the corner and stored > on the disk drives. > Did the LCM ever had these in operation, either for data retrieval or even > demo purposes? > I know of the Jim Austin Computer museum where they fixed a CDC 9766 drive > but it suffered > a head crash after a few hours according to their description which led to > giving up the operation > of these drives. > > Greetings, > Pierre > > - > http://www.digitalheritage.de
[cctalk] Re: Turbo Prolog
35 years ago I got tasked to write a simple expert system in Turbo Prolog because I was familiar with Turbo Pascal. The goal was an application to assist new members of the help desk. I have vague recollections of having to define rules to evaluate answers to simple questions. What I remember seems far removed from what I know of modern AI implementations. - Rod > On Feb 24, 2024, at 3:36 PM, Just Kant via cctalk > wrote: > > Has anyone used it or something contemporaneous? > Is it at all applicable to any degree to today's approach to AI/machine > learning tasks? I would like to perhaps eventually create a game, probably > not chess, lilely something simpler. The old expert system modeling paradigm > seems to have largely if not entirely fallen out of favor. From what I'm > reading though TP seems to be geared for that.
[cctalk] Re: MS-DOS
I found Tim Peterson's old blog a while back which contained some interesting tidbits about the history of DOS from the original author. http://dosmandrivel.blogspot.com/ - Rod > On Jul 29, 2024, at 8:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > On Mon, 29 Jul 2024, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> I had not realized that 43 yrs. ago Microsoft purchased 86-DOS for $50,000 >> – US not Cdn. money. With this purchase the PC industry, IBM’s version >> thereof, began. I remember using it to do amazing things, moreso than what >> 8-bit machines could do! > > Ah, but there is so much more to the story, which deserves an entire chapter > in the history. > > More than you wanted to know? : (but even more details available if you > really want them) > > Tim Paterson, of Seattle Computer Products was developing 8086 hardware, but > CP/M-86 was delayed. So, he wrote a temporary place-holder to use instead of > CP/M-86 until CP/M-86 became available. That was called "QDOS", "Quick and > Dirty Operating System". Later it became known as "SCP-DOS" and/or "86-DOS" > > Then came the "culture clash" between IBM and Digital Research (previously > known as "Intergalctic digital Research"). That has been documented > elsewhere; some claim that there was not a culture clash, nor an error. > > So, Microsoft (possibly Bill Gates personally) went down the street to > Seattle Computer Products, and bought an unlimited license for 86-DOS "that > we can sell to our [un-named] client" > > Tim Paterson, who later opened "Falcon Technologies" and Seattle Computer > Products both also retained licenes to be able to sell "the operating > system". Note that the version was not specified, as to whether such license > would include rights to sell updated versions; that error (failure to specify > whether future/derivative products were included) has been repeated elsewhere > (cf. Apple/Microsoft) > > Microsoft also hired Tim Paterson to maintain and update "MS-DOS". > > Microsoft sold a license to IBM, where it became PC-DOS. > And, it was available through Lifeboat as "86-DOS" > > In August 1981, when the PC (5150) was released, IBM started selling PC-DOS. > But digital Research was not happy with IBM selling a copy of their operating > system. In those days, selling a copy was legal, if the internal code was not > copied. (hence the development of "clean-room reverse engineering") > It wasn't until the Lotus/Paperback Software (Adam Osborne) lawsuit that > "look and feel" became copyrightable. > > So, IBM agreed to also sell CP/M-86 IN ADDITION to selling PC-DOS. > . . . and sold UCSD P-System. > > But CP/M-86 was STILL not ready, so everybody bought PC-DOS, many of whom > planned to switch to CP/M-86 when it became available. > But, when CP/M-86 was finally ready, the price was $240 vs $40 for PC-DOS. > There are arguments about whether IBM or Digital Research set that price. > Although, if that price was IBM's idea, then why did Digital Research charge > $240 for copies sold through other sources (such as Lifeboat)? > > > Initially MS-DOS and PC-DOS differed only in name and trivial items, such as > "IO.SYS" and "MSDOS.SYS" being renamed "IBMBIO.COM" and "IBMDOS.COM" > When changes were made, Microsoft's and IBM's version numbers were separated. > Thus 1.00 was the same for both > IBM released PC-DOS 1.10, and Microsoft released MS-DOS 1.25 > 2.00 was the same for both > 2.10 VS 2.11 (IBM needed trivial changes to 2.00 to deal with the excessively > slow Qumetrak 142 disk drives in the PC-Junior and "portable" > 3.00 was the same > 3.10, adding network support and the "network redirector for CD-ROMs > 3.20 VS 3.21, adding "720K" 3.5" drive support > 3.30 VS 3.31, BUT 3.31 was the first to support larger than 32Mebibyte > drives! > 4.00 and 4.01 IBM/Microsoft did not provide third party vendors enough > advanced warning, so Norton Utilities, etc. did not work on 4.00 (NOT 4.00 > did not work with Norton Utilities!) > 5.00 > In 6.00 each company bundled a whole bunch of third party stuff (such as disk > compression) and each got them from different sources. When Microsoft's disk > compression was blamed for serious problems caused by SMARTDRV, Microsoft > released 6.20 (repaired and reliability improved from 6.00). > Then 6.21 and 6.22 as a result of Microsoft's legal case with Stac > Electronics. > > > Please note that MS-DOS/PC-DOS ALWAYS had a version number, a period, and > then a TWO DIGIT DECIMAL sub-version number. THAT is what is stored > internally. Thus, 1.10 is stored as ONE.TEN (01h.0Ah), 3.31 is actually > THREE.Thirty-ONE (03h.1Fh), etc. > If there had ever actually been a "1.1" or "3.2", those would have been > 01h.01h (1.01) and 03h.02h (3.02), etc. > "1.1" was NOT the same as "1.10", nor "3.2" the same as "3.20", otherwise > VERY minor changes would be confused with serious changes, as happened when > some people called 4.01 "four point one". > >
[cctalk] Re: Print chain for 1403
> On Dec 21, 2024, at 8:53 AM, Donald Whittemore via cctalk > wrote: > > Rod Bartlett wrote: >>> >> As a field engineer for Honeywell, I always dreaded the holidays because so >> many people >> would launch print jobs which used repeated overstrikes to create pictures. >> Those jobs >> sometimes fired the maximum number of hammers at a time to speed up the >> picture creation >> which would sometimes cause multiple hammer actuator fuses to blow. More >> than once I had >> to buy all the 2 amp fuses from multiple Radio Shacks to get the printer >> operational >> again. Those overstrikes also caused the paper to become more saturated >> with ink which >> resulted in more paper/ink residue getting deposited in the print chain, >> which required >> heavier than normal cleanings during the next preventative maintenance >> window. >> >> Another thing which caused more work for field engineers around the holidays >> were jobs >> sent to the card punches to play Jingle Bells by punching fully laced cards >> in time to the >> music. It was entertaining unless they caused card jams too bad for the >> operators to be >> able to clear by themselves. Fully laced punch cards are too flexible to >> pass through the >> punch path cleanly. >> >> - Rod > > You mean like this? > https://www.ibmjunkman.com/cards/?Holder=6309&Img=1 That's it. As far as I know, fully laced cards were only useful for producing a deep percussive sound while punching the card. Trying to push cards rendered flexible by so many holes at 300 cards per minute caused some spectacular card jams which occasionally required partial disassembly to fully clear.
[cctalk] Re: Print chain for 1403
> On Dec 20, 2024, at 10:39 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk > wrote: > > The chain with box drawing characters mention in the original post where used > to print the ALD. The 1403 had logic that limited the number of hammers that > could fire at once, there was a test routine that would repeatedly fire the > maximum number of hammers it was called the "Chain Breaker Routine". The > only drum printer I ever saw operating I think it was a Honeywell printer and > the person demoing it printed out some pictures, the printer could fire most > if not all hammers at once which made quite a racket. > > Paul. As a field engineer for Honeywell, I always dreaded the holidays because so many people would launch print jobs which used repeated overstrikes to create pictures. Those jobs sometimes fired the maximum number of hammers at a time to speed up the picture creation which would sometimes cause multiple hammer actuator fuses to blow. More than once I had to buy all the 2 amp fuses from multiple Radio Shacks to get the printer operational again. Those overstrikes also caused the paper to become more saturated with ink which resulted in more paper/ink residue getting deposited in the print chain, which required heavier than normal cleanings during the next preventative maintenance window. Another thing which caused more work for field engineers around the holidays were jobs sent to the card punches to play Jingle Bells by punching fully laced cards in time to the music. It was entertaining unless they caused card jams too bad for the operators to be able to clear by themselves. Fully laced punch cards are too flexible to pass through the punch path cleanly. - Rod
[cctalk] Re: Print chain for 1403
I think IBM always called their service techs CEs, didn't they? Honeywell and at least one small company (Atex) which serviced DEC PDP-11 machines called the same position a Field Engineer. One site I used to service (USGS in Reston, VA) had a split computer room. The left side was for IBM gear while the right side held a Honeywell Multics machine which allowed me to see how my counterparts at IBM worked. When the IBM machine was down, there were a group of conservatively dressed CEs investigating the problem. When the Multics system had hardware problems, it was just me working on it and I never wore a suit. - Rod > On Dec 23, 2024, at 3:42 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > For the people who worked at IBM, what was the difference between an “FE” and > “CE” ? > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Dec 23, 2024, at 07:47, Paul Berger via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> >> On 2024-12-23 05:11, Nico de Jong via cctalk wrote: >>> When I was an operator, we once had a visit from a CE who had to repair the >>> carriage control mechanism. In order to do that, he had to use a big >>> screwdriver, and of course he lost it. It hit the 1403 N1's power supply, >>> blew all fuses. This was not enough; the screwdrive hit obviously the plus >>> and minus pole of the main capacitor (it's about 55 years ago), so the >>> current was so large that, after the things had cooled down, he could lift >>> the capactor out of the printer just by lifting the screwdriver >>> >>> It was by the way the same CE that got his tie wrapped up in the print >>> chain >>> >>> The same company once had a bunch of visitors who were allowed to visit the >>> machine room, which normally was a bit nono. One of the guests took his >>> coffeecup with him, put it on top of the 1403, and while things were >>> explained to the crowd, the cover lifted and well you can guess the >>> rest. He was quite pisssed off, but it was his own fault >>> >>> Another thing I'll never forget, was the 2540. It had 5 bins, and the >>> middle one could be used for accepting read cards and punched cards. Once >>> an operated started to read cards while cards were being punched, and both >>> routines used the middle bin. That is not to be recommended ! >>> >>> /Nico >>> >> My experience with a capacitor occurred early in my time as a CE. Before >> the days of switching regulators IBM used a lot of power supplied that where >> regulated by a resonant winding on the input transformer. If the capacitor >> on that winding goes short you get no output from the transformer. I was >> working on a banking terminal that had no power. Where I was working I was >> behind a row of machines and cabinets for things like signature cards, in a >> narrow isle against the windows, so no one in the branch could see me. I >> had already been caught once by a shorted resonant capacitor so first thing >> I did pop off one of the leads to the capacitor and sure enough it powered >> up, but I didn't leave it at that I started to second guess it so I turned >> off the machine and reattached the wire to the capacitor, and it powered up >> again. Then I started thinking that it probably went short due to heating >> up, so I thought it best to leave it disconnected until I could get a >> replacement, the machine would work fine without it for a day or two. It >> was then that I made the mistake, I thought I should discharge the >> capacitor, so I shorted the leads with the shank of a screwdriver and there >> was a load crack and a bright flash and next thing some of the banks staff >> where looking over the machine and asking if I was OK. I still have that >> screwdriver some 45 years later. >> >> You quickly learned to tuck in you tie and roll up your sleeves not just to >> keep them out of the mechanisms, but also to keep them out of the oil and >> grease. The worst things I worked on for getting dirty was proof machines. >> The endorsers used a purple indelible ink and they would get gummed up with >> a mixture of ink and paper dust and working with gloves was impossible so >> you would end up with your hands stained purple. Later someone stumbled on >> the idea of using a ultrasonic cleaner which we could use to clean >> everything except the endorsement plate, the ultrasonic cleaner would cause >> the endorsement plate to delaminate, but it was easy to clean by hand. >> >> Paul. >>
[cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story
> On Jul 6, 2025, at 1:55 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 2025-07-06 11:28 a.m., Rod Bartlett via cctalk wrote: >> Here's the directions since it was somewhat non-intuitive. I created a >> Confluence page at work but everyone asks me to disable it each time the >> problem crops up. >> https://paulhutch.blog/2019/06/24/disable-serial-mouse-detection/ > Reads post, I have no Windows key on my keyboard, can I use Any other key? > Ben. With a real IBM keyboard. I think you can replace that portion of the procedure by starting your search for "regedit" in the search portion of the taskbar. My work laptop is the only Windows machine I have available and it's been updated to Windows 11. Barring that, I think regedit can also be found in File Explorer at C:\Windows\regedit.exe. However you find it, I believe you'll need to right click it and choose "Run as administrator". The rest of the procedure should be the same. I've done this on 4 or 5 Windows machines in our lab at work so far and so far it's worked for all of them. It amazes me that Windows still retains the serial mouse support. I don't think I've seen an actual serial mouse in more than 20 years. - Rod
[cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story
> On Jul 4, 2025, at 8:08 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > True, but you got field service, > not some AI telling you read web page xxx, with a dead computer. > Ben. > PS: serial port had some active input on boot, and windows thought that was a > mouse not the usb port. The Windows problem with misidentifying a serial port as a mouse still exists in Windows 10. I discovered that connecting our small ARM based embedded device to a Windows machine via its USB serial port sometimes causes the Windows mouse cursor to go crazy. It took a while to find the registry setting to disable serial mouse detection. - Rod
[cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story
Here's the directions since it was somewhat non-intuitive. I created a Confluence page at work but everyone asks me to disable it each time the problem crops up. https://paulhutch.blog/2019/06/24/disable-serial-mouse-detection/ - Rod > On Jul 6, 2025, at 12:45 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk > wrote: > > By any chance, do you remember what the setting/s was/were ? > > > On Sat, Jul 5, 2025 at 8:29 AM Rod Bartlett via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >>> On Jul 4, 2025, at 8:08 PM, ben via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> True, but you got field service, >>> not some AI telling you read web page xxx, with a dead computer. >>> Ben. >>> PS: serial port had some active input on boot, and windows thought that >> was a mouse not the usb port. >> >> The Windows problem with misidentifying a serial port as a mouse still >> exists in Windows 10. I discovered that connecting our small ARM based >> embedded device to a Windows machine via its USB serial port sometimes >> causes the Windows mouse cursor to go crazy. It took a while to find the >> registry setting to disable serial mouse detection. >> >> - Rod >> >>
