Re: ST506/412 failure modes? (in this case, an IBM 0665)
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 2:53 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Afternoon all, > > This may be forgotten knowledge - or perhaps more likely, something that was > never known in the first place - but are there any typical failure modes of > ST506/412-type drives (beyond the obvious mechanical damage between heads > and platters)? I had a Tandon TM602S refurbed in the 1990s because it was the mech from a Commodore D9060 drive (and we didn't yet know that a Seagate ST225 would drop-in without firmware changes, though at 5MB of capacity used). The specific fault with the one I had was a bad track zero sensor. It required opening the HDA, so I had it done by a repair house. ISTR it was well under $100 since I wasn't fiddling with the platters. -ethan
Re: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL
On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: > Has anyone ever seen one? I had an idea it used a silvered-paper and > burned it off? or am I mis-remembering. I used one in the early 1980s but I never had to repair it. It was, as Tony and others have mentioned, electrolytic, not thermal. I don't know the details of the process either, but I remember the wet wick and having to wait for the paper to dry. It was a PITA, but being able to do screen shots was amazing. The only other terminal I worked with that could do that was a Tektronix storage scope terminal (4010 or 4014, IIRC). The Tek printer wasn't built-in, but it did take a scan of the live screen, so that was similar. The paper was silver-grey and I remember it coming out wet too. Everything else I worked with was either thermal or dot-matrix impact, and could only capture text as it arrived at the terminal, not a screen image. -ethan
Re: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL
On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:25 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > There are all sorts of oddball printing technologies from back then. I > remember > one (from a lab instrument, not a printer or terminal) that used > aluminum-coated > paper, but the coating was on the back of the paper. The writing was done > with > a high voltage electrode just as you describe, but the result was that the > sparks > would scorch the paper and leave a thin black mark. That reminds me of a printer I worked with in 1986 or so, but this one had multi-layer paper that could be selectively burned for true 16-level grey-scale printing. It was expensive, but the customer needed to render ultrasonic scans in high fidelity, and even a laser printers wouldn't work in this application because the sample size/pixel size was too small for that to be effective. These days, an inkjet printer could probably dither small enough black dots to be a cost-effective alternative, or perhaps a 1200dpi laser printer. -ethan > > I don't remember what the VT55 used. Tony's comment does sound plausible; I > distinctly remember "electrolytic" printing technology though no details. I > wonder if it might help to take a bit of the paper to a competent chemist for > analysis, to find out what the active ingredient is. That might help give a > clue what is needed to make it work. > > paul > >
Re: VT52s, VT61s lots of DEC and DG keyboards- return trip through Maine, MA, NY, PA, OH, IN to IL
On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 11:52 AM, tony duell wrote: >> The only other terminal I worked >> with that could do that was a Tektronix storage scope terminal (4010 >> or 4014, IIRC) > IIRC the image was developed by heating the paper. I don't remember any > liquids involved, but it's been a long time since I looked at the manual for > one > and even longer since I've seen the actual device Ah... that rings a bell... it wasn't too moist to pick up from the tray, it was still too hot (to be comfortable to grab). Thanks for the reminder. -ethan
Re: H960 logo panel
On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I'd love to get one complete RK11-C ... anybody? :-) I have an RK11-C but it did not come with a panel. Also, I've never attempted to fire it up, so I'm sure it needs a round of cleaning/deoxit and to be sleuthed for defective ICs. -ethan
RK11-C (was Re: H960 logo panel)
On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 4:07 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > On Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 2:13 PM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: >> I'd love to get one complete RK11-C ... anybody? :-) > > I have an RK11-C but it did not come with a panel. > > Now you know where you can leave it behind for a good old retirement :-) > You don't happen to get that RK11-C from an eBay auction some 8 - 9, > maybe 10 years ago? I did not. I've had it since August, 1984, and I got it from Software Results shortly before starting to work there. It (along with a stripped PDP-8/a and a DataSystems 310 desk) came with a pair of RK05 drives: one RK05J and one RK05F (but no power supply) that I wanted to use with the PDP-8. I'm told the whole pile came from Ohio State Surplus sometime in 1983 or so. Sadly, I mangled the RK05F due to youth and inexperience. I might still have the front cover for that RK05F in a box of parts, but I'm pretty sure the rest of the drive got stripped for parts 30 years ago to repair RK05J drives (if I knew then what I know now, I assure you that events would have unfolded differently, but I had no docs and no experience... then I had a series of "educational experiences" with this hardware and am wiser now). I only ever saw one other RK05F in the wild, FWIW. > I remember (just) one RK11-C passing by on eBay, and that was when I > still worked at Océ training centre, so at least 8 years ago. It sold for > ~ $50 (IIRC). Will never forget that I let that one go! :-( That's an amazing price just for the pile of FLIPCHIPs. -ethan
Re: RK11-C (was Re: H960 logo panel)
On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 12:04 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have two backplanes, some boards somewhere ,but no panels, at least yet. > Also a Diablo 30 or 31. I had a Diablo 30 but I lost it in a flood 25 years ago. :-( -ethan
Re: New logo: Vintage Computer Federation
On Wed, Oct 14, 2015 at 7:27 PM, Jason T wrote: > A man in a black suit and skinny tie came by and asked that we not > forget the Midrange (System/3, System/3x, AS/400...) Carl the Technician dropped by. It's all hooked up. http://www.marrick.com/IT_Lab.html -ethan
Re: DecServer 550 chassis
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 3:42 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Interesting. I thought Tthe DECserver 550 was merely the big brother in > the terminal server line. But it looks like it is essentially a > PDP-11/53 with 1.5MW of ram, you need new boot roms though. Pretty nice. Yep. It's essentially an S-box KDJ11 with different ROMs. I happen to have a CPU board from one, but not the box itself. One of these days, I plan to burn "real" PDP-11 ROMs and bring 2.11BSD up on mine. That and my Pro380 are my only KDJ11 machines. -ethan
Re: ADVENT on TSX-Plus system?
On Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 2:51 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > There was a hack for PDP11 Unix which added RT-11 compatibility syscalls > to the kernel. (UofT Spencer) Thus games compiled for RT-11 would > run on PDP-11 and VAX-11 (in PDP-11 compatilibty mode) Unix. Ooh... I'd love to see that. I've fiddled a lot with RT-11 and VAX UNIX (Ultrix and Sys V), and some with 2.9BSD on the PDP-11. Could be fun to cross those streams. Is that still floating around anywhere? -ethan
Re: The KIM Uno -- a modern clone of the KIM-1
On Tue, Oct 20, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > Just learned of this via a tweet from a former colleague: > > The KIM Uno is a small "open-source hardware" project to build a > replica of the classic 1976 KIM-1 computer... I've seen it (I was next to Oscar Vermeulen at VCFe and VCFmw this year). It's pretty slick and quite inexpensive. http://obsolescenceguaranteed.blogspot.ch/2014/06/kim-uno-kim-i-emulator-on-arduino-uno.html -ethan
Re: 360 mockups Re: Has anyone hear of the Computer History Archives Project?
On Thu, Oct 22, 2015 at 8:13 AM, wrote: > I've almost finished replicating the iconic Eames PSCC-4... > ... A real PSCC-4 is > $700 USD on eBay Earlier this year, a local small village upgraded their town hall auditorium seating and recouped thousands of dollars selling the chair shells on eBay. I was surprised at what a 50-year-old hunk of fiberglass sells for now. > I would like to get a few square metres of vintage raised floor tiles, but > have not had > much luck here in Oz. That's something that would be prohibitively expensive > to import. > No ideas yet on how to replicate them but couldn't be too hard. I have some steel-backed tiles that were newish in 1982 and from the weight, they would be incredibly expensive to send to Oz. More recent tiles I've seen are aluminum-backed and weigh far less, but they aren't period-correct for the late 60s. -ethan
Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans...
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 9:19 AM, Jay West wrote: > Dave wrote... > -- > I think that the switches can be found, but they might be expensive. Any of these C&K-type switches are likely to sell for $4-$6 each as new (I've gotten fistfuls of similar ones at Hamfests for $0.75 or less, but it's very hit-miss; not the sort of thing you could base a product off of). > But as Noel wrote... the problem isn't the CK switches as far as the "model > number" on them goes. Yes. The bodies are very standard, but the momentaries can be more difficult to find, even if they have SPDT on-on bodies. The 4-digit number on the side will tell much. AFAIK, there are 2 types used in a real DEC front panel, with some of the momentaries mounted facing one way, some facing the other way. >The problem is that CK > switches used in these systems were custom made with a flat metal plate at > the bottom of the handle (even though they had a standard CK part number on > them), which is what was used to attach them to the metal reinforcement > strip. I don't think it's a DEC-custom clip design, but it is not C&K's most popular mounting scheme. > So you can find a "7301" (or whatever the model number is on these CK > switches), but good luck finding any "7301"'s with the custom metal plate. Essentially, yes. 7301s are easy enough to find (at the aforementioned $5-$6 each), but not with the panel clips. > As Noel said, a new mechanical design would need to be made. A new mechanical design would allow for the use of a wider range of switches that would be more available. For paddle-type switches (with the small stub for mating with a DEC toggle handle), what I've seen as more common have larger metal "frame" that is also bonded into the switch stack like the panel clips DEC used. The frame has solder lugs that mount on the PCB next to the signal leads, giving a bigger footprint on the PCB. I have a few handfuls of those, with paddles, that I picked up at Dayton and other places. It's the style that Bob Armstrong used with the original FP6120 (for the SBC6120RC he later changed to simple toggle switches with round panel holes and knurled nuts because those are far more common). These "framed" switches won't easily mount in a real DEC front panel, so they don't help the person who is trying to restore a real front panel, but they would be a good choice for a from-scratch replica. You still end up with over $100 in switch bodies, but that's just the way these are. -ethan
Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans...
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 7:49 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > We have plenty of the original bezels, from which it would be easy to cast > molds > (the same part is used on the 11/45 and 11/70, unlike the rest of the front > console). Casting is one option. Another is CNC out of dense PVC foam. > The real issue in any front panel recreation is going to be the switches (not > the plastic toggles, the actual electrical device). Both the /45 and /70 used > the now-apparently-unobtainium version with the intergral metal plate to hold > the switch in place in a metal holder plate. It's probably possible to find small quantities of the right switch, but not 2 dozen per panel. > So a recreation front panel is > going to have to have some new mechanical design, to allow use of standard > micro-switches - and that's probably going to mean a re-design of the plastic > toggles, as those attached to side-plates on the original toggle switches. The pivot and attachment method is "standard" for C&K paddle switches. You can still get switches with that arrangement, but with a different mounting method. > I wonder how big an order of switches would be required before some > switch-making firm could be convinced to do a run? Maybe whoever made the > 'back in the day' still has the tooling to do so gathering dust in an old > room Good question... is it 1,000? 5,000? > To do that is going to require exactly emulating the interface to the CPU, > which is not going to be entirely trivial. Physically, the signals all come > over flat ribbon cables to standard Berg connectors, so that won't be hard, > but I doubt the interface is documented, someone will have to puzzle it out > by reading prints - and probably looking at a working one with a logic > analyzer. It's been done at least twice 6809-based interface (I happen to have 2 of these, so I'm good here) http://www.pdp-11.nl/homebrew/cons1170/cons70startpage.html Blinkenbone. http://retrocmp.com/projects/pdp-11-70-panel-on-blinkenbone http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone (more than just 11/70) > Also, powering the front console requires an unusual AMP connector shell, > although that may still be available? And of course one could always bodge > the power connection... That's a "standard" shell as used in several DEC power supplies and for 20mA TTY connections. They get brought up on the list from time to time. I happen to have a basket of them, but they are somewhat rare on the open market. -ethan
Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans...
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 5:26 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> But a 11/70 replica needs two physical 'cosmetic elements': proper >>> switches, and the white bezel/frame. >>> The switches *seem* to be feasible to >>> produce cheaply (I will know in a month with PDP-8/I switches...). I had a sample PDP-8/L and a sample PDP-11/70 switch toggle printed from Vince Slyngstad's models on a Form1+ SLA printer. They are very nice. I am not certain that the pivots won't break off - the resin is quite brittle, but Form Labs does now make a "tough resin" that's more resilient, at a 50% premium ($180 per liter?) The printer is just shy of $4,000. The cost per switch toggle is around $1 in resin, but operator time makes it much more expensive. I'm trying to work out a deal with other members of my hackerspace who own the printer... if I do the part washing and the support clipping, it might be possible to get switch toggles for a few dollars each. An alternative is I think they can be bought from Shapeways for around $5-$6 each (SLS format). >>> The white >>> bezel though brings me into unknown territory. 3D CAD (based on Museum >>> Measurements), then injection molding or vacuum forming. Or any technique to >>> produce a plastic object in medium quantities. All I know so far is that >>> it's very feasible - and much cheaper to do than just a few years ago. Yes. All cheaper than it was a few years ago. >Can't it be 3D printed? Or done with vacuum forming? Resin molding? Could be 3D printed, but not in one pass on any normal printer - it's 19" wide and 10" tall. Vacuforming is also a possiblity, but the logo wouldn't be as "crisp". We have a 2'x3' (600mm x 900mm) vacuformer at our hackerspace, but it does very thin styrene sheets for custom 1-off signs (the plastic comes on rolls and you form it over hard letters and logos to make a "3D" sign - very 1970s tech). We do not have a vacuformer strong enough for, say, Storm Trooper armor. Such a vacuformer could probably handle a bezel. >Are you talking the white bezel on this photo? >http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/Images/11_35_draw.jpeg Yes. >It can be done easily: > >- You can do it in a 3D prusa-something printer, if you divide it in > printable blocks, and glue it afterwards. Yes. >- You can easily do that in Vacuum Forming. Since I never saw a 11/70 in > front of me, I don't know the size/hardness requeirements, but I believe it > is feasible It's a solid metal casting, not for strength so much as, I think, durability (from when chairs and other things whack into the machine), and manufacturability with techniques of the day. >- You can create a cast mold in some material and use liquid resin (epoxy > comes to mind since it doesn't shrink/expand on cure). Probably it would > need a two-part positive/negative mold. Easily done if I had the original > part on hand It could be fairly easily cast, I would think. >- I haven't seen all the details, but I believe it can be 3D-cut into a > suitable CNC machine, in wood or plastic. Having worked with it before, I'd recommend trying to CNC it out of a dense PVC foam. It's plenty rigid and sturdy, but carves nicely, and is not particularly expensive. It might take 2 passes - one for the outline, and one for the "digital" logo with a smaller bit. You'd need a CNC with at least a 500mm x 300mm bed, but a little larger would be an easier fit. I do have this frame to measure for CAD parameters. As it happens, I have a PDP-11/70 front panel PCB minus the switches, a couple of bezels of my own, and a complete, borrowed, PDP-11/70 front panel that I was already taking measurements from for a repro plexi. I also happen to have infrequent access to a Faro Arm ($80,000 3D scanner - http://www.faro.com/products/metrology/faroarm-measuring-arm/overview) and I'll see if I can get a scan of the bezel at my next opportunity. -ethan
Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans...
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 11:17 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Alas, it's DPDT, not SPST. > > Ooops; the ones in the PDP-11 front panels (/05, /45, /70 and almost > certainly the /40 too) are SPDT, not SPST Yes. The footprint for the existing front panel PCBs are SPDT. > I looked at the data sheet for the ones you found, and it's actually a sheet > for the whole series, from which it looks virtually certain that the right > ones (both pemanent and momentary contact) can be ordered from C+K. It's just > a matter of working out what the part number would be! Part number and availability. From a quick look around, I see low availability numbers (one part was "3 remaining" and a notice that they would not be restocking that part). In the larger scheme, I think it's fine to find these switches for restoring real machines, but I think we are better off finding alternate sources for a new design. The benefit of the "real" panel mount switches is that if we make a replica PCB with PCB-mount, the panel mount switches will still work, given the DEC mounting frame (and that's another kettle of fish - I have one, and I think it's stainless steel because it's quite "lacy" with 12mm square holes and 1mm of metal between them. That would be exciting to reproduce in a home shop). -ethan
Re: KIM Uno /PiDP-11 plans...
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > OK, I've cracked the part number code. The things we are looking for > are: > > 7101J50 CxE > > 7108J50 CxE > > ... > > the C+K Web site showed two places (Electro-Sonic and > > Online-Components) stocking 7101J50 CQE2's .. investigating further now. > > OK, so I've ordered 10 7101J50-CQE2's from Online (that was their minium > order, sigh). _Iff_ they fit into the old front panels, I'll let the list > know. Cool. I have a DEC PCB that needs all switches (and I have the DEC mounting frame with the square holes), and I've borrowed a full 11/70 front panel that needs 1-2 switches, and I'm sure the owner would like an inexpensive replacement. > Nobody had the 7108J50C's (the momentary contact ones) Unsurprising. Those are far less common. > but if the 7101J50C's are the Right Thing, I'm prepared to order a batch of > the 7108's from C+K; > the minium order looks like 40 or so (and resell at cost to anyone who needs > one); I may be very much interested in this. > The ones from Online are like $5 each, which sounds a lot for a switch If you've ever had to order switches, it's not a lot. It's about average for the type. > Anyway, let's see if the 7101J50-C's fit, then we can discuss how to proceed. Perfect. -ethan
Re: The Internet & our hobby
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 1:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > I do miss the web-less Internet in some respects. People were more > > polite back then--at least in their written communication. > > I snorted and started coughing when I read that! :-) Usenet had massive flame > wars long before the Web existed! I joined Usenet right before the Great Renaming and ran a node for years (up to about 1995). There were epic flamewars. That part of our history I don't miss. -ethan
Re: Retro Reproduction.
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:15 PM, Jay West wrote: > I should also add if people are talking about reproducing DEC switch > handles (the plastic covers)... I would love to get spares for my DG gear so > whatever process works for the dec ones may be helpful there. Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles? (fragile pivots that break off) I'd say the first step is what Vince Slyngstad has done with several DEC handles - capture an accurate shape in some flavor of CAD. From there, Shapeways or an SLA printer should make a nice, functional replacement. SLA will produce brittle but visually beautiful parts. SLS (Shapeways) will produce stronger parts but with a matte finish - functionally nice, but palpably different. Perhaps a couple coats of paint would smooth that over. -ethan
Re: Retro Reproduction.
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:42 PM, ben wrote: > Bring in the Gorillas. :) > Other than bootstrapping, switches tend to sit idle. Yeah... For my switchless 11/70 PCB, I'm happy to buy $5 switches, but if I can't find them that cheaply, I'm not worried about a replacement method of attachment that might not be as robust as the original stainless steel punched mounting bar. The LEDs are nice and useful, but I'm not going to be debugging software from front panel switches. They just aren't going to get that much use. OTOH, I've spent a number of hours debugging a hardware fault with a PDP-8/L... I've toggled in a wad of 2-3-word test programs as I snoop and poke at signals. I'm far less likely to be doing component-level debugging on an 11/70. -ethan
Re: Retro Reproduction.
On Fri, Oct 23, 2015 at 3:55 PM, Jay West wrote: > Ethan wrote... >> Do the DG handles have the same problems as DEC switch handles? >> (fragile pivots that break off) > > Ethan - Yes. They have the exact same "pins" on each side of the plastic that > break off pretty easily Right/ > I believe the DG handles on the nova 3, and Eclipse S/130 (and similar > models) are virtually identical to some DEC switch handle. > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638@N02/albums/72157657915020163 Looking at your picture, I'd say that is not identical to any DEC switch handle I know of. The C&K switches in that photo _are_ identical to the 11/70 switch bodies (and mounting frame) we've been discussing, but not the plastic actuator past the pivots. > I bet they would fit on the identical CK switches we've been discussing... I > know it's not the /40 style nor the 8 style. I'll do some digging. Yes. Those handles would fit the newer DEC switches (not the PDP-8/L or PDP-8/i era stuff with slide switches entirely unlike C&K "red" switch bodies). -ethan
Re: The Internet & our hobby
On Fri, 23 Oct 2015, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> While I won't try to claim that the FIRST or SECOND >> emails were flames, I'm inclined to think that they >> started early. 'course in our day, we were much more >> polite in how we flamed > > > Emacs? You _MUST_ be kidding. I'd expect wide-eyed stares from a vi user... ;-) Q: What goes "beep beep beep"? A: A Little Nash Rambler... and a vi novice. -ethan
Re: Order now ! PDP8 front panels
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 9:44 AM, rod wrote: > New panels in design stage for the 11/40 up to 11/70. > Scans, Photos and "I want one" for the above to me please. I should have some scans of a real 11/70 plexi available to send soon. -ethan
Re: PDP 8 panels. Feedback
On Mon, Oct 26, 2015 at 11:05 PM, rod wrote: > Hi Guys > I need to get some comments on the following. > > 1. Would a matt finish be better than the current glossy one? Hard to say, but generally, I think a closer match to the original is better. Is there a reason you want to consider a different finish? Cost? Fingerprints? > 2. Should the round holes be pre-drilled? I would think that the fewer holes that the users have to make in a brittle substance like acrylic, the better. It's easy to crack with a twist-drill, which is what most people have. There are "right ways" to drill it, but it's not wood. Lasers do a nice job of making smooth holes in acrylic. -ethan
Re: The last fix for a "All Shook Up" 33
On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Jarratt RMA wrote: >> Of course FRAGILE means something...FRAGILE (pronounced ‘Fra-gee-lee') is >> Italian for “major award”. :) > > I suspect I am missing a joke here, but "fragile" in Italian has exactly the > same meaning as "fragile" in English. "Major award" in Italian is probably > something like "gran premio". Where is the joke I have missed? Movie reference: A Christmas Story. -ethan
Re: Trying to get my RLV11 working
On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 12:52 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > Thanks! I did find someone who has the bc80m cable available, which I > believe is a ribbon type of connector with a ground strap on one end, > then a round cable to the berg connector for the back of the RL02. I > think it's the cable pictured here: > http://www.cosam.org/computers/dec/pdp11-23/20080403.html Yes. That's a BC80M, but it's not a ribbon cable on the controller end, it's the splayed end of the round cable (12 pair + 1, IIRC) with crimped gold pins and a 44 position Berg connector. You can use those if you don't have a cab kit (which is really just a bracket for the rack, a 40-pin ribbon cable, and one of those odd ZIF connectors like on the back of the drive to transition from flat cable to round cable) but then you'll need a drive-to-drive RL cable. > The RLV11 and RLV12 seem hard to find, at least on eBay It's been a long time since these were easy to find. -ethan
Re: Trying to get my RLV11 working
On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 1:37 PM, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I only have one RL02, so I think that cable should work. I ordered it anyway! That cable (BC80M) will work even if you get a second drive. No matter how the first drive is attached to the controller, to add a drive, you remove the terminator from the first drive, add a drive-to-drive cable between the two drives, then move the terminator to the second drive. Can anyone with experience from back in the day comment on why there is a BC80M? Why all the controllers didn't just use the flat cable to a cab kit and a drive-to-drive cable? Cost? Length? EMI reduction from running the BC80M into a BA23, etc, and only pushing shielded cable outside the CPU enclosure? Is the flat-cable-and-cab-kit pre-FCC only? > I'll keep an eye out for other controllers, but I think I will order > an extender and attempt to debug the one I have. It seems to be mostly working, so with luck, it's a single IC, once you narrow it down. -ethan
Re: Trying to get my RLV11 working
On Thu, Oct 29, 2015 at 2:52 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > In case anyone happens to be looking for the cab kit, conflansrd / JT > Computer has had one listed on eBay for a while: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/151628333033 > CK-RLV1A-KA 15' CABLE RLV12 M8061 CABKIT FOR BA23 (USED) That's not the cab kit I was thinking of, but it's _a_ cab kit. The one I'm thinking of (and can't find a picture online of) is a black-painted metal bracket with space to mount two of those ZIF connectors, with a bit of bent metal that positions a threaded hole about the same relationship to the drive cable as the strain-relief screw point on the back of the drives. It's really just a metal box with 4 sides, a hole for the ZIF connectors, and open to the side with the round cables, with a lip for that screw. You mount this metal box somewhere on your H960 (or other rack) and run a BC08 cable into your RL11. I know I have one on my 11/24, and I probably have 2-3 more for other systems. -ethan
Re: Teletype services
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 7:03 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2015-Nov-05, at 10:59 AM, John Ball wrote: >> I've been trying for the past week to verify that telephony on my teletype >> machine (model 33) is functioning properly but the biggest hurdle I am >> running into is I have nothing to easily dial into... > > I'm not familiar with all the possible modem variations one might find in a > 33, but AIUI the modem for the 33 at the standard 110 bps was Bell 101 > standard. When I got an ASR33 with a built-in dataset (from the Dayton Hamfest, in the 80s), I had much the same quandry. At the time, my best solution was to call up a local CompuServe number. I got a login prompt and called it good. That said, I'd be a little surprised if that trick still worked. -ethan
Re: kinda odd LSI-11 machine?
On Tue, Nov 17, 2015 at 11:39 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Nov 17, 2015, at 8:41 AM, Kelly Leavitt wrote: >> >> How about: >> >> http://buffalo.craigslist.org/sys/5318182022.html > > Weird! I wonder if it's a Heathkit (H-11) in a homemade enclosure. The H-11 has a Heath backplane PCB and non-DEC backplane connectors. This looks to me like DEC backplane frames in a homemade enclosure. -ethan
Re: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50
On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 11:55 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > I'm not sure I understand the question correctly. That article clearly > points out the 20 mA wires, and presumably that's where your ASR33 is > connected. The VT50 comes (according to the peripherals handbook) with a > standard 20 mA interface, optional RS232 interface. So it sounds like it > would be a matter of finding where the 20 mA connector on the VT50 is, and > plugging into that. > > Interestingly enough, the VT52 is listed as supporting either kind of > interface, but only one; "specify at time of order". I don't know that I've taken apart a VT50 or if there are internal differences, but for the VT52, there's a ~2"x5" (from memory) PCB with interface circuitry for either EIA or 20mA and a permanently-attached cable with the appropriate connector on the host end. You take the bottom of the terminal off, pop the board, pop the other one on and it's switched. It would not be difficult to replicate either board, either by hand or with a fabricated PCB. -ethan
Re: Interfacing PDP 11/05 to VT 50
On Tue, Dec 1, 2015 at 3:37 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > ... should be passive... > The same goes for the VT1XX option on > the VT100 which had two switches which one could set. I have a couple of the VT1XX 20mA options, if anyone is looking. New in Box. -ethan
Re: TU-58
On Wed, Dec 2, 2015 at 7:40 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I have a TU-58 and yes it had gooey drive wheels. > Now it no longer has that problem but I have black and gooey fingers.!!! Yep. > I know this issue has been addressed before. Yep. > So I think somebody must know where I can get the right tubing to replace > the degraded stuff. > The drive hub is 0.42" and the rubber bit was 0.62" o/d I've used 5/8" (0.625") OD Tygon tubing, often used for aquarium lines and drainage lines. I just get a snip off the roll, place it over the end of the cleaned hub, and slice it to the right height to provide a "wheel" as wide as the original. > A UK source would be nice, Can't help you with that. I get my Tygon at the hardware store. No idea what sizes you would have there. -ethan
Re: Help w/ HP 88780 Tape Drive (corrected email).
On Thu, Dec 3, 2015 at 1:05 PM, Ali wrote: > So I got my hands on an HP 88780 1/2" Tape Drive... > > The bad news: > > Some of the front panel buttons are not working. Running test 72 shows > failure in the unload/rewind and online buttons. Luckily it seems to be a > mechanical problem. If I short the switch on the circuit board then the test > passes. The switches are mechanical push buttons that are soldered on so > should be easy to replace. Anyone know of a good or OEM equivalent > replacement? If need be I can get pictures of the buttons off the PCB. I have been recently cleaning and testing an HP 7980A. I also had problems with some of the mechanical buttons, verified with TEST 72. I was able to clean most of them with contact cleaner and agitation, but the ONLINE button was stubborn. I ended up replacing it with a generic 2-pin tactile switch. I do not know where to get OEM switches of this exact type - they are somewhat taller than cheap tactile switches, and appear to have a solid conductive rubber button/pad instead of a plastic top and metal internals. My defective button has a closed resistance measuring in multiple K ohms. I would also love to hear of a source of replacement buttons of the original style. -ethan
Re: SCSI Questions (Was: "Re: Purchased a Microvax 3800")
On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 11:02 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > One detail on "it doesn't care what the tape is": RSTS kits on 1/2 inch tape > come > in 800 and 1600 bpi versions. They have different boot blocks, each of them > designed to work with all tape drives/controllers supported on RSTS that > support the density in question. For example, the 1600 bpi kit doesn't boot > on a TM11 controller, and the 800 bpi kit won't boot on a TMSCP controller. I remember TM and TS boot issues from the 80s when we were running RSTS on an assortment of 11/24 and 11/34 hardware and having to migrate tape controllers and tape drives from place to place for the installs (TMB11 + TS03, MS11 + TU80...) I still have a couple of boxes of 800bpi small reels we used on that TS03. > This matters if you try to boot one in an emulator where physical tape > density doens't have any meaning. Hadn't considered the implications, but sure... you would have to completely emulate the original gear or the stars won't align. -ethan
Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!!
On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 4:35 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > I'm tempted to reply using ALLIN1 email just to give you all an idea how > really irritating some email clients can be! So glad I never had to use it. We had VMS MAIL and we liked it ! > It was all the rage in the 80's however don't you know. Rage is a good word for it. I don't recall any kind words about ALLIN1 30 years ago. -ethan
Re: 2.9.1 BSD on 11/34 + sc21-bm + fujitsu m2333k
On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 8:50 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote: > Exciting stuff for a Friday night, right? It is! > https://www.instagram.com/p/_K-zHhHvLn78Qu5ijWqMf-HBem1LKMLaEdI1c0/ Nice! > xp0a: hard error bn cs2=1100 er1=0 > > on every single block when I try to mkfs /dev/xp0a 4800 I can't help you with M2333K specifics, but do you get anything meaningful if you use 'dd' on the raw disk, first to read, then to write? ISTR /dev/xp0c or /dev/xp0g might be the "all the disk" partition. It doesn't really matter _which_ partition you are trying to read from, but might as well start at the beginning and allow it to go to the end. If you can't read a block at the OS level, you probably won't be able to write it to drop a filesystem on it (I'm sure there are imaginable scenarios where that's possible, but for a simple smoke test, just try to read one block with dd and pipe it to 'od'. I can't remember if od is available on 2BSD, but dd is most likely there since I think I remember using it to stuff bootblocks at the fronts of disks). Of course there are several imaginable scenarios where you could read but not write. Write but not read is far, far less conceivable. -ethan
Re: CBM 1541 drive faults
On Sun, Dec 13, 2015 at 10:22 AM, tony duell wrote: >> >> I've done the obvious, reseating socketed ICs, checking the +12V and +5 >> rails, and checking the on-board CPU reset line. Does anyone have any tips >> for what's best to try next? > > Didn't at least some versions use 2114 RAM chips? If so, then check/change > those first I don't think any of the single-disk CBM drives used 2114s (but I agree - those are favorite suspects when present). I'm pretty sure all the units I've worked on have 6116-type 2K SRAMs or perhaps 6264s. I'd have to go back and check parts lists, but the older dual-drive units might have had 2114s as the shared memory between the two processors. -ethan
Re: What did computers without screens do?
On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 2:05 PM, Mike wrote: >> On Dec 14, 2015, at 12:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> The subject brought up the thought of how many display-less computers we >> encounter every day without giving it a thought. I think that probably 100 >> would be a safe bet. >> Looking over past this screen, I see my network hub, mouse, keyboard and >> heaven knows how many display-less computers inside the actual shell of my >> PC. > > if you think about it almost everything we touch has some kind of a > computer cycle! ! ! GREAT POINT!!! Even lighting... I've pulled (and reused!) 8-pin PIC microcontrollers out of discarded emergency lighting. "In the old days", a switching supply might have a 555 timer for an oscillator. These days, an 8-pin uC is cheap ($0.75 or far less) and allows the behavior to be changed without a soldering iron, or allows the hardware design to be completed and sent out for manufacture before the software is complete. If you want to change the frequency of a 555 oscillator, you have to design in a potentiometer or remove and install different value components. If you want to change the frequency of a uC oscillator, you reprogram it (or if you have enough pins, design in some removable jumpers). Short version is, even the cheap and simple 555 has been replaced in many products with a cheap-as-or-cheaper-than microcontroller, not because it's simpler, but because it allows for greater flexibility and reduces the overall product cost. -ethan
Re: Webster WQSMD/04 Qbus SMD Controller
On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 2:42 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have had a few replies now. So it seems that it wasn't that unusual to > connect up these big drives to a MicroVAX II. In the late 1980s, your choices for uVAXII disk were essentially, 5.25" DEC RD drives, which topped out at 154MB, or external drives, often 8" or 14", and unless you were tied to DEC-only (and went with an QDA50 and first an RA81, then RA82, then possibly RA90, etc), your next choice was some 3rd party controller and the drives to match. If the goal was > 150MB, that often meant Fujitsu SMD drives, but then later, large-capacity 5.25" ESDI drives started to appear. I have a bit of both with my VAX 8300... a KDB50 with a real RA81 (because we already had that when we got the used 8300 in 1989) then some years later, I landed a 5"-tall 3rd party disk box with ESDI on the inside and SDI on the outside. ISTR mine has 2x 600MB ESDI, so it's 3X the storage of the RA81 in 1/2 the volume, in less than 1/4 the weight, and probably 1/5 the power. :-) -ethan
Re: CBM 1541 drive faults
On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 6:32 PM, dwight wrote: > Do remember when ordering 2114's that these are all NOS units > and just about as likely to be bad as the ones in your unit. Too true. NOS doesn't mean it's working. > I don't know of any surplus place that has the ability to test them. Or the interestg. > Most any of the places that I've dealt with will replace bad ones > but if dealing by mail order, it may not be worth the hassle. > Order a few extras. That reminds me, I need to make a quickie little microcontroller-based 2114 tester. I have tubes of the chips (NOS from 1982 - we used them in the COMBOARD 1) and no confidence of which ones work and which ones do not. I'm sure 98% or more work. Which 98% is the question. It's not hard to make one with a <$10 microcontroller. It's just a question of sitting down and building it. -ethan
Re: Mystery IC: Allen Bradley 314B102
On Mon, Dec 14, 2015 at 9:15 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 15 Dec 2015, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> I thought Centronics dated back to early 1970s - not always in the >> standard 'modern' form, but in general principles with same signaling >> and strobing of data. > > I got in late. My first encounter with Centronics was TRS80 (1979?) > At that time, Centronics did not yet have a monopoly on parallel > "protocols", although the company had certainly been around for a while. My first experience was in the mid-1980s. Someone gave me an ancient tank of a Centronics-brand printer - 132 columns and 2 print heads! One head got the left side of the paper, the other head got the right side. Unlike the later "Centronics Interface", this one had an internal edge connector for input - 40 or 44 pins (I used a standard 44-pin protoboard but I can't remember if I had to cut it down or not) I interfaced it to the user port on my Commodore 64 and wrote my own handler to trap device #4 and squirt out the data through the user port. > Once they got the TRS80 market, and then the IBM PC market, any other > designs faded away fast. Yep. About the only exceptions I can think of are the Amiga 1000 (proprietary but similar parallel port pinout on a DB25M) and DEC minicomputers which leaned towards the Dataproducts-type interfaces that required a gate or two (and probably a cable pin swabber) to talk to "modern" Centronics printers - one example was the DC37 on the back of a VAX-11/730... you had to add somewhere between 1-3 inverters to make that talk "Centronics" but once you did, you could just tell the VMS line printer process to squirt chars out the parallel interface and it would "just work". -ethan
Re: WTB: PDP-11/03 front bezel
On Thu, Dec 17, 2015 at 12:17 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I had always wondered about what bezels are made of. > The one off my 8/e seems too heavy for aluminium. > It must be diecast something or other. Zamac? -ethan
Re: Remember the old "Choose your own adventure books" By D & D! ! !
On Tue, Dec 22, 2015 at 1:04 AM, Cindy Croxton wrote: >> Has any of you took one of them old choose your own adventurer books and >> coded it into a text RPG in basic? >> >> 1. Clear the screen for the next page! >> > Clear Screen was CLS, IIRC. For TRS-80 BASIC, I think. For Commodore BASIC, it's PRINT CHR$(147) (you can also type PRINT and a quote and hit SHIFT-CLR HOME and another quote, which works well when you want to print a string that starts by clearing the screen and going to the top left corner, then has other movement and/or text) There are a number of Commodore BASIC books out there, and for beginner stuff, the one that comes with the machine (if you get one in the box) will get you started. -ethan
Re: The KGB, the Computer, and Me
On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 4:45 AM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Anybody who has not seen this film (The KGB, the Computer, and Me) > its worth a look. 1980's DEC systems everywhere, LSI terminals, HP kit, > Tape drives in action and apart from the Mac no Windows anywhere. > > I think LBL must have bought one of everything. > The story (true) is not bad either. > > I now expect to get a long list of weveseenits. Seen it and can recommend. I also have the book. My (utterly tenuous) tie-in with the events is that one of our COMBOARD customers was impacted by the hacker's bouncing around Tymenet and they changed how we had to log into their system to diagnose and fix our product on their machines. I asked why, they said it was "that damn hacker and that damn book!" -ethan
Re: Floppy recovery
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:24 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > I'm somewhat familiar with the Roddenberry floppies. They were not in a > standard format - so it was not just a matter of reading the floppies, > but developing software to read the specially formatted and encoded > floppies (understanding directories, files, etc.) and converting them > to files in a format their client could use. Since the article in PC world mentioned that most of the floppies were "in CP/M format", and I know there are many possible ways to make flux transitions on spinning rust, I totally get that it can take some time to figure out where the actual bits are on the medium, but once you have the data portion of the sectors on a modern machine, CP/M wasn't all that complicated, and IIRC, files were on sequential blocks once they started (not scattered about such as with most modern filesystems), knowing that you were starting with something based on CP/M, what was so obscure that it took months to untangle that part? -ethan
Re: Floppy recovery
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:27 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Can you enlighten us as to what sort of system/disk format it was? > > IIRC, it was several, mostly Japanese. I'd have to go back to my notes from > some time back. The picture of the one remaining whitebox with the two full-height floppy drives did remind me of some of the early-to-mid-1980s Japanese CP/M machines that were all but gone by 1985. -ethan
Re: Floppy recovery
On Tue, Jan 5, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Jason Scott > Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 1:53 PM >> As someone who's dealt with Harlan Ellison on multiple fronts. I will tell >> you the chances he will burn those drawers is 50-50. > > Though I've never met him, I have friends who have worked for him. We would > put it at 90-10. >From what I've heard, that's far more likely. -ethan
Re: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist)
On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 9:14 PM, ben wrote: jp2a --width=76 snoopy.jpg | lpr cal 2016 | lpr
Re: Free HP 3000 Equipment for removal (Denver Craigslist)
On Wed, Jan 6, 2016 at 9:14 PM, ben wrote: > But where do you get the 2016 Line Printer Calender? jp2a --width=76 snoopy.jpg | lpr cal 2016 | lpr -ethan
Re: BC11A paddle boards
On Tue, Jan 26, 2016 at 5:46 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I just received the first of the BC11A paddle boards (so that I can now > create my own BC11A cables). Cool! > For those who’d like to know, I probably will not be making a production run > of these boards unless I get a *lot* of interest (100 boards or so). If you > want some, let me know and if I get enough interest, I’ll do a production run. Considering DEC did something like this for the DWBUA, but with 4 30-pin cables (by necessity because of the BI backplane), is 2x60 pins more cost-effective than 4x30? Mostly, I'm curious about how much 60-pin ends cost and the difference in cost between 2 lengths of 60-pin ribbon cable vs 4 lengths of 30-pin cable. The copper cost is the same, but I wasn't sure what the current cost-per-foot is for ribbon cable. I haven't bought a reel of it in 30 years, but I do recall that 40 pin seemed to be more expensive than 4 times the length of 10-pin, for example (since we used both where I worked in the 80s). Either way, these days, the cost of 2x60 vs 4x30 is probably minor compared to the fab costs of a "large" PCB with gold fingers. I'd be curious to know how much a 10' BC11A-work-a-like will run, but I'm vaguely interested in some pairs of boards. I do have plenty of Unibus machines and RK05s, most with vintage cables, but I'm sure several of them have crimps and dings and might fail close inspection. -ethan
Re: BC11A paddle boards
On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 10:06 AM, tony duell wrote: > DEC (also?) made a board that brought the Unibus out on 3 40-way > cahles. I don't know that I've seen that exact one, but it sounds like something they would have done. > I have removed that from my 11/730 as I just want a single-cabinet system, > but of course have kept all of it. > Didn't we have a thread on this a few months back? Perhaps, but I don't remember if it was related toGuy's paddle boards or just general kicking around of "how do I get "new" BC11A cables?" >> more cost-effective than 4x30? Mostly, I'm curious about how much >> 60-pin ends cost and the difference in cost between 2 lengths of > > Practically, I would not want to use 60 way connectors and cable. They are > not as easy to get as the 40 way ones. I just did some pricing and 60-way cable is a touch pricey. Through cable surplus vendors, I saw one quote of $1.33/ft and from the same vendor, prices close to $0.30/ft for 28-34-way (you need twice as many feet, of course, but it's still half the cost. Not a big deal for one 10' run, but trying to cable up 4 RK05s, for example, it would start to add up). 3x 40-way wouldn't be too bad, if designing from scratch (I totally get the design goal of a simple double-sided paddle card to simplify the construction of that - I'm not complaining about Guy's design, just investigating costs for different methods. For just one pair of paddle cards and one set of cables, the differences aren't going to be enough to matter. Wanting/needing multiples for multiple systems or drives might start to tip the balance). > [I've never seen a 30 way IDC socket. 34 way are common of course.] I'd have to check the paddle card with my DWBUA, but I'm pretty sure the cables are 30-pin to 30-pin, not 30-pin to 34-pin (the VAXBI backplane is studded in 30-pin keyed connector spots (6 per backplane slot) and are the only way to get signals to/from BI options. We made a COMBOARD VAXBI (only sold a handful - too late in the game to matter) and took two 30-pin cables out to our I/O bulkhead dual EIA connector plate. The DWBUA has 4x 30-pin cables to get Unibus from the BI board to the paddle card in the DD11DK. They certainly aren't common. I only mentioned them because I've seen it done. 3x40-way is probably more sensible since 40-pin parts and cable were once incredibly common. -ethan
Re: BC11A paddle boards
On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 1:31 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 7:48 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I just did some pricing and 60-way cable is a touch pricey. Through >> cable surplus vendors, I saw one quote of $1.33/ft... > > I just ran some numbers (Digikey*, so YMMV) and here’s what I came > up with... No arguments about the Digikey pricing. I'm not shocked it comes out that high. I get needing to price new parts from reliable vendors, but as a consumer of kit items, I frequently hit my own junk boxes (I have a lot of cable supplies) and definitely hit surplus vendors. In the "real world" for the last run of COMBOARDs, I got the cost down 25% by not ordering certain parts (RAM, CPU...) from Digikey/Mouser/Allied, etc. OK for a sunset build, but not for a new product. > Note, that *if* I do end up selling the paddle boards, I’ll sell just the > boards and the connectors on the boards. I will *not* be selling the > cable itself (nor the cable connectors). Sure. > As you can see from the above, any solution is going to be expensive. > This does not include the boards (since the price for either solution is > the same). I just wanted to illustrate the comparison between 60 and > 40 pin cables. I see the numbers from Digikey and, yeah... quite a bit for those endpoints, no matter which configuration. > ...this is what I’m using for my “prototype” run and will > probably investigate more fully if/when I do a production run (of course > if folks want just the bare boards they’re free to “do their own thing”). If you do bare boards (no connectors), I'd probably be interested in several sets. If you need to supply board connectors to keep your volume up, I'll probably still be interested but perhaps not quite as many sets. -ethan
Re: BC11A paddle boards
On Wed, Jan 27, 2016 at 2:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> On Jan 27, 2016, at 11:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> If you do bare boards (no connectors), I'd probably be interested in >> several sets. > > I offer parts kits as a convenience not as a requirement. The big costs > are just getting the number of boards up. Sure. I just didn't assume because some kits are priced around volume orders of PCB+parts and it screws with the inventory to sell bare boards. I'm usually happiest to buy bare board kits or board+weird parts. > Of course when I start producing products that are SMD with pre-programmed > parts (ie MEM11A), those will be fully assembled and tested just because I > don’t want to handle the support issues and component choice variations as > well as I’ll have the boards assembled before they get to me. Sure. I've been on the support end of selling through-hole kits, but I wouldn't want to have to support SMD kits. I have bought and assembled many kits with SMD parts and have enjoyed success, but not everyone's builds go smoothly (and even I've had to occasionally fix my own screwups). And I'm still interested in at least one MEM11A when it gets to that. I have this 11/20 that needs some stuffing. -ethan
Re: C-64 Time delay code?
On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Kelly Fergason wrote: > The C64 had TI$. Its been a while... but you could do something like this: > > 10 TI$="00" > insert lots of program... > 100 if TI$="30" then print "30 seconds have passed! " Using "equals" there can cause issues if somehow 31 seconds pass then you check (perhaps the user hit RUN/STOP, waited, then CONTINUE...) What's safer is 100 TI$="00" 110 IF (TI < 1800) GOTO 110 Just reset TI/TI$ like line 100 every time you want to wait (you can't set TI, only TI$), then loop until enough "jiffies" (1/60 sec) have passed. You could make it fancier with a subroutine that uses a variable (in seconds) and does the math for you. Many ways to do it. -ethan
IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder
Hello, all, I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to be missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s gear, it's not round. It's square. Is this a standard IBM thing from the 70s/80s? Anyone know where I could get one? It seems to snap in and probably fell out at some point under its previous owner. Also, I found only a little info on it from Googling. Later IBM ASCII terminals emulated ANSI command or Wyse-50 or something. I couldn't find anything on the 3101. Is it a glass TTY or does it respond to any cursor positioning, etc. commands? Thanks for any tips and info. Worst case, I can bodge in a fuse on the inside, but if I can find a replacement holder, I'd like that more. Thanks, -ethan
Re: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 2:39 AM, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jan 2016, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to be >> missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s gear, >> it's not round. It's square... > > There aren't too many US made square panel mount fuse holders. Indeed. I've seen them, but they aren't ordinary. > It sounds like it might be a Littelfuse 348 series. > > http://www.littelfuse.com/products/fuse-blocks-fuseholders-and-fuse-accessories/fuseholders/348/348870.aspx That looks like the thing. Thanks! -ethan
Re: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 12:56 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 01/28/2016 10:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal... > > I'd open up the case and see if you can find out who made the whole fuse > holder assembly. Lots of outfits made "fancy" fuse holders that were > different entirely for visual appeal. Or, just browse through the Digi-Key > or other catalogs and try to find a fuse holder that fits the opening in the > case. I'm sure it was NOT a custom IBM part. It's not a custom IBM part, but it is an uncommon one. As mentioned earlier today, it appears to be a Littlefuse series 348. I've ordered a replacement. >> Also, I found only a little info on it from Googling... >> > It definitely has cursor positioning commands. I ran one on a CP/M system, > and added in the cursor and other commands on a configurable editor and used > it for some time. After my initial post, I did find a mention of positionable cursor and such in some docs on Bitsavers and Manx. -ethan
Re: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 1:19 PM, Paul Berger wrote:
> On 2016-01-29 12:28 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>> I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal...
>
> I did a quick google search for 'ibm 3101' and among the hits was a manual
> on archive.org, www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/31xx/ there are two manuals one
> of which is the "Terminal Description" that seems to have plenty of
> information about the data stream.
I quickly found GA18-2015-3 ("An Introduction to the IBM 3101 Display
Terminal") last
night. The more useful one is GA18-2033-2 ("IBM 3101 Display Terminal
Description").
Figure 2-12 on pages 2-20 through 2-23 have the full command set. It
appears to be
nominally VT52 compatible (ESC-A through ESC-D for cursor movement, ESC-H and
ESC-Y for 'home' and 'set cursor address'...) The 3101 command set
has plenty of
additional commands, and does not implement a few of the full VT52
command set, but
as soon as I get the terminal all cleaned and checked out, I can
probably tell the
host I have a VT52 and get some useful results from it.
> The protocol is unusual at least the mod 12 is one of the character mode
> terminals supports RS/232 and current loop.
Yep. Saw that. I might use the current loop (I have a few devices
that support it), but
at first, RS-232 is quite handy.
> The weak point is the keyboard,
> the key modules have a leaf spring in them that flexes every time you press
> a key and they break.
Good to know.
> The good news is almost every IBM keyboard from that
> time uses exactly the same key module so spares may not be hard to come by.
> When I was servicing machine with this type of keyboard more than 30 years
> ago, I carried a dozen spare key modules in my trunk all the time.
Very good to know.
Thanks for the tips on the keyboard!
Unfortunately for me, my friend who dropped it off couldn't find the
keyboard ("it's
in the basement...") so I won't be able to make much progress until I get that.
-ethan
Re: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 2:23 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 01/28/2016 08:28 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> >> I was just gifted with an IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal that happens to >> be missing the fuse and fuse holder. Unlike a lot of 1960s and 1970s >> gear, it's not round. It's square. > > Something like this? > > http://www.amazon.com/SEACHOICE-PANEL-MOUNT-FUSE-HOLDER/dp/B0006ZCDQ8 Not that one. That one has a square outside, yes, but a round body and a nut. Based on a later message here, the 3101 looks to have something from the Littlefuse 348 series (square hole, square body, locking plastic tabs). But thanks for the suggestion. -ethan
Re: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > This is the Multics Release 12 C compiler terminfo entry for the 3101: > > # @(#)ibm.ti 1.3 (1.10 2/22/83) > > ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10, > cr=^M, cud1=^J, ind=^J, bel=^G, tbc=\EH, hts=\E0, am, cub1=^H, > clear=\EK, lines#24, cols#80, cuf1=\EC, cuu1=\EA, ed=\EJ, el=\EI, > kcud1=\EB, kcub1=\ED, kcuf1=\EC, kcuu1=\EA, > home=\EH, cup=\EY%p1%' '%+%c%p2%' '%+%c, ht=^I, Thanks for that. Based on that as a start, I found this in an old USENET post... ftp://ftp.u-aizu.ac.jp/pub/misc/device/terminal/ibm_3161.termcap.txt I4|ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10:\ :do=^J:ct=\EH:st=\E0:\ :if=/usr/lib/tabset/ibm3101:\ :am:le=^H:bs:cl=\EK:li#24:co#80:nd=\EC:up=\EA:cd=\EJ:ce=\EI:\ :kd=\EB:kl=\ED:kr=\EC:ku=\EA:ho=\EH:cm=\EY%+\40%+\40:pt: > Attached is ibm3101.ctl.lisp, the 3101 bindings for the LISP interpreter. Don't happen to need that, but I should probably mention that this list strips attachments. Thanks! -ethan
Re: Looking for Heathkit H11 manuals
On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 3:26 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > I’m looking for the assembly manual(s) for the main H-11 unit. I > might be getting an H11 and I think it only has two boards in it (maybe the > LSI-11 and 4k MEM boards??) but it doesn’t come with any manuals. I'd also like to get any available materials. I have an H-11 (possibly an -A, I'd have to go back and check) with an H-27 floppy drive that I've never gotten working with it. The unit works fine with an RXV11 or RXV12, so I'm looking at the H-27 controller as the source of my woes. I have lots of experience with real DEC Qbus modules and nearly no experience with Heath modules. -ethan
Re: VCF West is BACK ... woohoo!
On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 5:21 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Mark your calendars: Vintage Computer Festival West is back! August 6-7 this > year at the Computer History Museum (Mountain View, Calif., just like > before). Send pictures. I'm already double booked that weekend this year) and I'd love to see what I missed. -ethan
Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..
On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 11:57 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > First week on the job in March 1980, my new boss brought me two pdp11/04s > and a box of memeory chips. He to told me to double the memory in > the two computers by populating all the empty holes on the memory boards. I had a boss in 1987 that asked the same of me... > Fortunately I started with only one memory board. > > All the holes were full of solder so I tried to clear the solder before > putting in the chips. It seemed that every time I touched the soldering > iron to the board, any nearby traces immediately lifted and rolled up. > I never finished the first board and I never started the second board. Mine was a DEC MSV11 w/128Kbytes installed, solder filling the holes for the other half of the memory positions. I did not have problems with traces lifting from that board (I was using an adjustable Weller soldering station and had fine control over the temperature). Installing the DIPs went fine but the first test was not successful - the new memory did not appear. Quick inspection and a few bad solder joints found and reflowed, and two more cycles of that and I had my 256Mbytes. -ethan
Re: MEM11 update
On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> On 2/8/16 10:09 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> So, things are moving forward. I also wanted to get folk's opinion on >>> the need to actually produce >>> an SPC form factor board. In other words (and sort of in line with how >>> peripherals were done on the >>> original 11/20) is it OK to have the MEM11 be outside of the 11/20 >>> chassis and connect via BC11A (my replica) cables? For my own case, I have a 3-box 11/20 that I need to restore (as I've posted before, it was chopped apart and dumpstered, and I recovered it from there). The majority of the second and third boxes is MM11-E core memory units (I have N-1 because one of my co-workers nabbed a core plane to hang on the wall). My plan with the MEM11 has been to restore the CPU cabinet and use the memory on the MEM11 instead of the MM11-E units, leaving me plenty of space and power supply for peripherals with the ultimate goal of running UNIX v1 on it (I also have an RK11C that would be a secondary restoration project, or an RK11D that should "just work") With that, I had been expecting that the MEM11 would be an SPC board that would just sit in a DD11CK with some other periperhals. Apparently, it's sounding like there's too much "stuff" for a single quad-height card then? Is it component density or having to go to a 4-layer board that's an issue? > As Ian stated in a subsequent post, it'll probably be something like a 1U > box with appropriate power supply. That will certainly be functional, but it seems to up the cost quite a bit. I would rather have an external something that works than not have anything at all, but I think an SPC, if possible, would be the most portable of solutions. If this was an external device, would it just have a pair of 60-pin cables to your replica BC11A? Would it then have an onboard terminator or option to install a terminator? I get that you won't be selling the MEM11 as a bare board, but it doesn't seem that the intended audience would be put out by soldering their own 60-pin connectors and/or a bunch of terminating resistors if it needed to be at the end of a chain or in the middle. -ethan
Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..
On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 1:33 PM, tony duell wrote: >> > I heard that when Bristol University physics department got its first VAX >> > (an 11/750, >> > somewhat before my time), it was cheaper to buy 256K memory boards full of >> > 16K RAM >> > chips, clip them out, clean out the holes and solder in 64K RAMs rather >> > than to buy 1MByte >> > boards full of 64K RAMs from DEC. And that is what they did > >> machine? I doubt DEC would be real happy with that. Also, >> the 64K RAM chips need an extra address pin, were the boards >> laid out with that signal already in place? > > Yes. IIRC there were some jumpers to re-set, but the boards were the same. Yep. The boards were used in the 11/70, the 11/730, and the 11/750. I don't know if you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in the 11/730 due to the tri-voltage 4116s, but even if they worked, you wouldn't want to - 5 of them just isn't that much RAM. In the case of the 11/750, one of mine, BT000354 (early S/N) shipped from DEC with 512KB as two M8728 (256K) boards that I later upgraded to 8MB by removing the old memory boards and memory controller board, adding eight M8750 boards (it was not worth clipping and upgrading the actual boards at the time - 1MB boards were under $300 each by then), and L0016 memory controller board (8MB max) and adding the additional multiplexed address line to the memory slots. We ran it that way for many years. -ethan
Re: MEM11 update
On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 4:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Anything optional will be in sockets. I’ll be putting the UNIBUS transceivers > in sockets because I can’t afford the overage that I’d need to provide to the > board house for assembly. I'm starting to get sorry I sold off my surplus NS8641s from Software Results 20 years ago. To be fair, I did get over $4 each for them, so at the time, it was a good deal for me (ISTR retail was $7.50 even then, so I got a good spread on the price). I do have some left, but handfuls, not armloads. -ethan
VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 9:48 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 02/08/2016 03:23 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> I don't know if you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in >> the 11/730 due to the tri-voltage 4116s, but even if they worked, you >> wouldn't want to - 5 of them just isn't that much RAM. > > We ran our first 11/780 with 2 memory boards. I THINK we had a total of 256 > KB, and one Friday afternoon one of them died and we had to run over the > weekend with only one board, so that would have been 128 KB. Yes, it was a > bit tight on memory, but we got a LOT done on that machine. As I mentioned our first 11/750 was delivered with 512KB (we upgraded it pretty quickly to 8 boards for 2MB, where it ran for years). The 11/750 first shipped with IIRC VMS 2.0. My first encounters with VMS was around mid-1984 and VMS 3.4. We had 8MB of memory in our second 11/750 but it was supporting 50+ users. That 11/750 went off-lease, we sent it back. That's why I had to upgrade the other one, so we'd still have an 8MB VAX in-house. It ran VMS 4.7 at the end of its days 23 years ago (we had quite a bit of software that wasn't available for/wasn't licensed for/wasn't under paid-maintenance for 5.x). I haven't powered it up since we left that building (I do occasionally power up the 8300 that we got for product development). So I'm fairly confident that 512MB is enough for VMS 2.0 but I _think_ by 3.0, you had to have a megabyte or two. 1.25MB would be the most you could stuff in a 11/730 if you could use the boards populated with 16Kbit DRAMs. I don't think VMS 2.x runs on an 11/730 (but I could be wrong there). We ran Ultrix 1.1 and VMS 5.0 on one of ours (with 5MB). VMS 5.0 barely fit - we mostly used that to link our product binaries under 5.x for distribution to our customers. I do know someone in Ohio who ran VMS 5.0 on a VAX-11/725, but they did it by cutting a slot in the skin and running a BC11 cable out to a BA11 box next to the 11/725 and stuffing a UDA50 in the BA11. With an external disk, there's no practical difference between an 11/725 and an 11/730... same CPU, same backplane, same memory... just a packaging difference. -ethan
Re: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 11:11 PM, william degnan wrote: > I ran my VAX 4000-200 all day today. Nice. > I have never worked with an older I happened to get a lot of opportunity in the 80s to work with VAXen, then Alphas in the 90s and a little beyond (I haven't been paid to run VMS since about 2003). > VAX. I run VMS 6.2Today I booted off the backup drive to keep it > fresh, DIA5. I am running MULTINET. Nice. We never had Ethernet back in the day - everything was async lines (and Kermit and BLAST) and sync lines (HASP, 3780 and SNA via our own products, plus DDCMP on DEC sync serial interfaces and a point-to-point DECnet network) > 3 M7622 16MB RAM boards installed. :-) I never had more than 8MB on a big VAX or 9MB on a MicroVAX. I had to go to Alphas to get that much RAM (and then, boy, did you need it!) With 8-20 users on 9600 bps terminals, 8MB was a little pinched at times, but mostly OK. It kinda hurt first thing in the morning when everyone was in VMS MAIL and soaking up a bunch of RAM, but unless we had half our users in MAIL, a quarter of our users in business apps like Access 20/20 (spreadsheets) or MASS-11 (word processor) _and_ someone kicking off a build with Whitesmith's C, we didn't swap much. All this power for under $5,000 per user, terminal included, years before $5,000 would buy you an IBM 5170 PC-AT. -ethan
Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..
On Tue, Feb 9, 2016 at 7:55 AM, tony duell wrote: >> I don't know if >> you could use the 256K boards (populated with 4116s) in the 11/730 due > > I am pretty sure (havng read and re-read the printset, I am restroring > an 11/730 at the moment) that you can't use 256K boards in that machine. > The memory address decoder (which IIRC is on the MCT board, part of > the CPU) assumes 1M boards. I don't find that surprising. At the time they were designing the KA730, 1M boards were obviously available (or imminently available) and with 5 memory slots vs 8 in the KA750, I'm sure they never expected anyone to want to use up a slot with a tiny board, so why support them. As part of this thread, I was digging around for context and ran across ads in ComputerWorld and such as archived on Google Books. The ads indicate a reseller price of $4,000 for one MS750CA (1MB board) in 1984. By the time I was buying them (for work) around 1989 I think, ISTR prices around $400-$600 > Anyway, as you say, you would not want that little memory. No good reason to. -ethan
Re: Programming
On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 3:31 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Mon, Feb 8, 2016 at 12:23 PM, Noel Chiappa > wrote: >> If you have an actual 11/20, you should be ecstatic! ;-) > Yes, its faceplate reads 'PDP-11', not 'PDP-11/20'. I am half sad. My 11/20 faceplate reads 11/20 (I'm only half-sad because at least I _have_ an 11/20... just need to spend a bunch of time fixing it since it's in pieces). -ethan
Re: VAXen and minimal memory (was Re: The PDP11/04 has landed..)
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 9:56 AM, Mark Wickens wrote: > It's good to hear that the VAX was a cost-effective solution - there are > too many stories about how expensive DEC gear was, but I imagine they > primarily came after PCs started dropping in price. > > On 9 February 2016 at 04:50, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> With 8-20 users on 9600 bps terminals, 8MB... >> All this power for under $5,000 per user, terminal included, years >> before $5,000 would buy you an IBM 5170 PC-AT. VAXen weren't exactly cheap (our 11/750 was ordered the week they were announced and was, I'm told, the first one shipped to the midwest (S/N BT000354). ISTR it was $120,000 with 2MB and 2X RK07, then we added a Systems Industries SI9900 SMD controller and had a 160MB Fuji drive and a 400+ MB Fuji Eagle. I don't have the numbers on that, but it was another $30,000 at least, I'm reasonably certain. I do know when we bought an RA81 in mid-1984, it was 424MB for $24,000. DEC VT100s were around $1,800 in the early-1980s, I'm pretty sure, then we switched to CiTOH terminals for around $1,600. When you add in 16-port Emulex CS21s to attach all those terminals, and divide the cost of the central machine by the number of users, I think you get that $5,000 per user cost. IBM-brand PCs were also about the same cost per seat, but the software was a lot cheaper (minicomputer apps were tens of thousands of dollars for a handful of users; PC apps were hundreds per user), and PC maintenance was way cheaper (but not as convenient as a full-service maintenance contract). So, yeah, DEC gear was expensive and PCs were cheaper, but perhaps not as much cheaper as people felt they were. BTW, these are all new prices from when the gear was first launched (when we bought those items). Where the savings came was if you could live 2-3 years behind the leading edge. I bought a lot of DEC equipment from resellers that kept us going for more than 10 years. Lots of other companies went with Ethernet and PCs on every desk, etc. We stuck with minicomputers (VAXen and PDP-11s) for the vast majority of our work (correspondence, software development, cutting customer tapes...) and used PCs for a couple of specific tasks (accounting, because Peachtree on an IBM PS/2 Model 30 was way cheaper than any equivalent app for VMS, and circuit board design with OrCAD and PADS-PCB). So there's a slice of the mid-80s and how we got things done. I'm reminded a bit of all this recently as I'm refurbing a DEC VT220 and an IBM 3130 terminal, to use with a modern Linux box to share with folks the experience of life on dumb terminals. I'll probably make a post soon, once I get the hardware all cleaned up, calling for favorite DEC and IBM games that play on dumb terminals. -ethan
Dumb terminals and many sessions (was Re: VAXen and minimal memory)
On Thu, Feb 11, 2016 at 12:11 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> DEC VT100s >> were around $1,800 in the early-1980s, > > VT100s (and terminals in general) often were used as bargaining chips > to sweeten deals, so the price was quite "flexible". I have no doubts that was true when selling systems, but I remember seeing the paperwork from when we were growing, so 10 new employees meant 10 new terminals (and sometimes one more CS21)... Eventually, we stopped growing, then started shrinking, so it was feasible to log into two systems at once by having two terminals on your desk. We also had structured wiring from Nevada Western (DB25 modular adapters on each terminal, 6-pin silver satin cables to the wall, and several 3U "switchboard" panels with blocks of jacks and 25-pair telco cables back to the VAXen) so it was also easy to employ 2-line switch blocks at our desks. Eventually, we had "modern" terminals like the CiTOH 101e that supported a second session over the "serial printer" line (we never used the second line for hardcopy). Now, I use computers with bitmap screens to maintain multiple simultaneous character-based sessions. Same workflow, less wire and fewer large hunks of plastic and metal on my desk. -ethan
Re: pdp11/04 : the pics....
On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: >> Impressive collection of great machines! > >> but never found the "4 high" racks. They are called H950 ??? > > No labels to be found on the rack.. I have one of those racks (with the maroon PDP-11 top plate; it came to me with a PDP-11/34 and TS03 in it) but I don't remember the name off the top of my head. ISTR mine has a label with the original system designation for how it was shipped from DEC, but the whole system, not the part of the empty rack. -ethan
Re: pdp11/04 : the pics....
On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 4:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: >>> Impressive collection of great machines! >> >>> but never found the "4 high" racks. They are called H950 ??? >> >> No labels to be found on the rack.. > > I have one of those racks... According to http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/catalogs/OEM_Hardware_and_Software_Product_Summary_Oct76.pdf (page 42) it might be the H967. -ethan
Re: IBM 3101-12 ASCII terminal - need fuse holder
On Fri, Jan 29, 2016 at 5:50 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > This is the Multics Release 12 C compiler terminfo entry for the 3101: > > # @(#)ibm.ti 1.3 (1.10 2/22/83) > > ibm|ibm3101|3101|i3101|IBM 3101-10, > cr=^M, cud1=^J, ind=^J, bel=^G, tbc=\EH, hts=\E0, am, cub1=^H, > clear=\EK, lines#24, cols#80, cuf1=\EC, cuu1=\EA, ed=\EJ, el=\EI, > kcud1=\EB, kcub1=\ED, kcuf1=\EC, kcuu1=\EA, > home=\EH, cup=\EY%p1%' '%+%c%p2%' '%+%c, ht=^I, Charles, this was exactly what I needed. I got tired of waiting for my Littlefuse cap to arrive, so I installed a 3A panel-mount circuit breaker (recycled from a small UPS) and fired up the terminal tonight. I fed that terminfo entry into tic and it works like a champ... vi works, even hack works. Thanks for the help! -ethan P.S. for anyone that runs across this thread later, using this terminal on a Linux box, my DIP switches are: 1011 1110 00110001 10011001
Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > When I was debugging the connection between my VAX and tu58em on my Mac, I > ended up buying an old serial protocol analyzer. Notably, I specifically > avoided one with the same type of tape drive; I got one with a nice, reliable > 3.5" floppy drive! ;) HP 4952? I have two with tapes from the old days (they contain a formatter, and we did wipe some scratch tapes for storage of our analyzer programs, including a PU Type 2 BIND simulator that filled the program memory, but it worked well enough for us to debug SNA BIND sequences in the absence of a real PU Type 4). -ethan
Re: Serial analyzers (was Re: VAX 11/730 quickie)
On Mon, Feb 22, 2016 at 10:54 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > The bigger picture: > > https://twitter.com/nf6x/status/701796809413304320 Nice! We had a couple 4951s set up at all times, mostly for sync debugging of our own products, but occasionally, we stuck them between two machines running Kermit or Blast or some other async transfer program to figure out why they weren't happy. We had one RS-232 and one combo RS-232/differential (2 connectors) pod. I see a few cheap machines on eBay, but they are missing the pod cover. Good for parts, but without finding/fabricating an external interface, not immediately useful. The complete machines seem to still fetch a pretty penny. Great series of machines. -ethan
Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 12:38 AM, Richard Loken wrote: > On Mon, 22 Feb 2016, Mouse wrote: > >>> Computer games require all you can give them [...] >> >> Only if your idea of "games" is "slick-looking realtime 3D-rendering >> games". There are lots of games that work perfectly well on 3100-class >> (and even slower) machines, such as roguelikes (rogue, larn, hack, >> etc), text adventures (ADVENT, DUNGEON, etc), phantasia, Seahaven, >> Klondike...the list is long. > > But those are Computer Games! Not computer games. It is a long time > since I have played rogue. I've been meaning to ask this question since I started cleaning up terminals this year... what are some favorites? Some of the obvious classics are: Adventure Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine) Scott Adams Adventures Wumpus Anything in Dave Ahl's "101 BASIC Computing Games" Empire Star Trek rogue/hack Larn/Ularn But what are some other favorites? I've been running a monthly "retrogaming night" at our Makerspace and so far have brought out a C-64, a PPC Mac, and an 8032 PET. I'm looking to add a PDP-8 (via Oscar Vermuelen's PiDP-8, for portability) and (at first) a simh RT-11 box and/or VAX running VMS, though I have plenty of real DEC gear - it's a matter of transport and storage space). I have a VT220 and an IBM 3101 (very VT52-like with a working terminfo entry) already on site and can add additional terminals if this becomes popular (I may drag in a VT52 just for the excuse to clean one up). I have the Commodore end pretty well covered. I'm looking for suggestions for 80x24 text games that can be played on an ANSI (VT100) terminal and especially non-ANSI (VT52 or that IBM 3101) on Unix/Linux, VMS, and RT-11. So in general, anything that uses curses or direct ANSI sequences or just spews text to a glass tty. -ethan
Re: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 11:29 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 11:23 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ... 80x24 text games that can be played on an ANSI (VT100) >> terminal and especially non-ANSI (VT52 or that IBM 3101) on >> Unix/Linux, VMS, and RT-11. > > I never checked, I did not know there were VAX games that you could > download/compile and run locally. One of my VAXen has BASIC installed, but > most are mostly file servers. I'd like to learn more myself. Back in the day when I used VAXen and terminals all day, every day, we had a variety of exectutable games for VMS (and we never had BASIC on that machine). One of the most popular was EMPIRE (to disambiguate, this EMPIRE was a single-player, random world with armies, planes and ships where you captured a city, changed its production and took over the world - binary only, source never released). I also ported a number of UNIX games acquired from comp.sources.games and comp.games.unix to VMS with a VMS curses library and a C compiler (Whitesmith's C, which we used for our own development, and later, VAX-C) including rogue and Larn. I had the Infotaskforce "pinfocom" Z-machine when it was _the_ 3rd-party Z-machine. In the FORTRAN realm, there's ADVENT and DUNGEON (Bob Supnik's port of Zork) and I'm sure plenty more. These I have on old backup images (and probably on the 8300 in the basement). I'm looking for stuff I might not have known of 25-30 years ago. -ethan
Re: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)
On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 1:41 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks > Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2016 8:23 AM > >> Zork (and anything else on a Zmachine) > > Ethan, > > You should know better. Of course I do. > Zork originated on a PDP-10 running ITS. Of course it did. > I first > encountered it on a TOPS-20 system, since the folks at the Dynamic Modeling > Lab ported their variant of Lisp to TENEX and TOPS-20. I didn't get to play it on 36-bit hardware until you gave me an account. I've also run it on the klh10/Panda distro. > It's publicly available to play on the Toad-2 at LCM, and I removed the > office hours check from the startup program years and years and year ago. I can easily set people up in front of a real tube on a Linux box and telnet through to the Toad-2. > P.S. There is also a copy of EMPIRE, though I think there's a problem under > the modern monitor. Probably would work fine on a KS running 4.1. I'm sure I have EMPIRE for VMS on pretty much any VAX I have ever set up. I was just reading up that there's a modern re-implementation in C but it looks extended from the game I remember (satellites, in particular, I don't recall from 1986). -ethan
Re: PDP-11/04-34 Programmer's Console manual error
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Luckily, having that cable in backwards doesn't harm anything... DEC was really good about things not being damaged from backwards cables. Much better than most vendors. I'm sure someone can come up with a horror story, but mostly, it's good. What _was_ bad was some of the OMNIBUS boards in the PDP-8/e, specifically, the quad boards with 8 fingers (because they attached to their neighbors via H851 connector blocks) and no maroon/green plastic handles. I heard a tale from someone that Field Circus plugged in a board upside-down into their machine and toasted some stuff. -ethan
Re: MEM11A update
On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 8:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Mar 29, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> ...autorouter on Eagle 7.5, so I did this all by “hand” >> (at just under 2000 wires it took a while). > > I can imagine. Hand-routing tends to produce much better results; Yep. > the autorouter in EagleCAD isn't all that good. Yep. > A simple way to find the not yet routed wires is to turn off the metal layers > but leave the "ratsnest" layer visible. I can suggest triple-checking for unrouted wires. I have a small PCB design I sent out that had *1* unrouted wire segment, between the crystal and the pad at the MCU, so short, I couldn't easily spot it even after several sessions of looking at it and running ERC. Fortunately, there's a handy via _right there_, but each board from that run needs a hand-added ECO wire (something I used to do for a living 30+ years ago). v2 is 100% correct! Lesson learned. -ethan
Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
On Mon, May 25, 2015 at 8:07 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: > Today we pulled all of the M113 flip-chips and tested them because SN7474 > and SN7400 ICs seem to be a problem in these early DEC systems. I have found from debugging a PDP-8/i and multiple PDP-8/L systems that 80% of my failed ICs are SN7474 and SN7440 parts, and most of the remaining 20% are SN7400. I think I've replaced 0-2 parts that weren't one of those three. Do you have any writeups on Warren's FLIP-CHIP tester? I made a simple rig with a 1990s-era Ming IC tester and a 16-pin clip-lead harness that can test each chip on a simple (M113, M117...) FLIP-CHIP, but it can't test complex boards like the M220 or M706/M707. Fortunately, most of the failures I've run into are a small handful of TTL on the simple single-height boards, which this rig can catch. I've been thinking about a smarter rig but haven't tried to build one. -ethan
Re: DEC cartridge ID & ARTIFACS 440
On Wed, May 27, 2015 at 7:09 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> http://www3.telus.net/~bhilpert/tmp/deccartridge.jpg Yep. Looks like RC25 carts > RC25 could have been found in both PDP-11 and VAXen. I think you only had a > Qbus controller for it, though. But it's MSCP. There's a Unibus controller for it. The RC25 came standard with the VAX-11/725. -ethan
Re: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Mon, Jun 1, 2015 at 1:09 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > If you actually get an RC-25 drive working, I'd love to hear about it. I > have three RC25s (one actually in my 11/725 and two spares) and none of them > work. They were never very reliable drives, even when brand new, and are > possibly the worst drives DEC ever made. Ain't that the truth. I had a 11/725 with a working RC25 back in the 1990s, and I've semi-recently replaced it with a different 11/725 that did not come with a removable cartridge so I've not been able to spin it up to test the internal platter. Hopefully it works, but if it doesn't, (see below). > Fortunately for an 11/23 or 11/83 there are lots of alternative drives > available. There are. Unfortunately, for Unibus machines (11/725 especially), there are not as many alternatives. One I've seen is to nibble a chunk out of the rim of the cover skin (to prevent pinching) and run a BC-11-A Unibus ribbon cable out to a BA-11 and stick any number of controllers in that, such as an easy-to-find-but-power-hungry UDA50. Also good for adding more serial, etc. Just put RAM in the CPU box and leave all the peripherals in the external BA-11. Not supported by DEC, but it works fine. I've also heard of people using Emulex and other 3rd-party SMD and ESDI controllers. Those aren't too expensive. Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is not common, but a joy if you can find one. -ethan
Re: Unibus SCSI - was Re: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 1:52 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > The UC07 manual on Bitsavers shows this as a Qbus adapter - although I'd > sure think it was Unibus from the name. The seller calls it out as Qbus > and the documents back him/her up. Yeah. I have one. It's Qbus. Nothing wrong with it - that's about the going price from what I've seen, but it's not Unibus. -ethan > On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 5:31 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2015-06-04 8:49 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> ... Unibus SCSI, OTOH, is >>> not common, but a joy if you can find one. >> >> This one ends in 8 hours. >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/AVIV-Emulex-UC07-SCSI-Quad-Wide-Q-Bus-Digital-Equipment-LSI-11-MicroVAX-PDP-11-/261903555279 -ethan
Re: Holy mother of pearl. 25000 for an 026
On Fri, Jun 5, 2015 at 9:21 PM, Connor Krukosky wrote: > Its in better condition than the one I got, but I got mine for only 9 > dollars!! > http://www.ebay.com/itm/IBM-26-Keypunch-Punch-Card-/141603779673 Nicely done. I have an 026 that needs to be completely cleaned, lubed and inspected. It was removed from a clean place where it was disused for decades, but AFAIK, it was stored in working order. -ethan
Re: Rescue update: DEC RC-25s + / was Re: DEC cartridge ID
On Sun, Jun 7, 2015 at 9:44 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > That should be trivial. I've never laid hands on an RC25, but there > must be a microswitch that detects when a cartridge is installed, and > is accessible for bodging...? The problem is if you would do that, the heads on the empty cartridge would load and smack together. The RC25 has one motor spindle, one positioner, and two pairs of heads. I suppose if you found a way to wedge the upper and lower arms of the removable cartridge so the heads weren't damaged, you could use the fixed platter alone? If you didn't, it would be as bad as forcing an RL02 or an RK05 to load with no platter mounted. -ethan
Re: First VAX-11/730 VMS Boot! (was: Re: VAX-11/730 %BOOT-F-Unexpected Machine Check)
On Fri, Jun 12, 2015 at 2:06 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > Using a version 58 console tape image provided to me by one list member, and > massaged into a usable state by another list member, I just booted OpenVMS > 7.3 off the R80 drive on my VAX-11/730 for the first time since buying the > machine. Woohoo! Wow... I'm rather surprised it can run something that new, and on a drive so small. I remember having problems fitting 6.0 on an RD53 (or was it an RD54?) It fit, but wasn't straightforward to install. It took a couple of tricks. > Eventually, I'd like to run an older version of VMS than 7.3 on it. > Preferably, something contemporary to when the 11/730 was still sold, or at > least from before any sane 730 users upgraded to newer and faster VAXen. Of > course, that assumes I can procure suitable installation media, or usable > images with which to create it. Back in the day, we ran VMS 5.0 on our 11/730, because we needed a machine to link our product against 5.0 to support our customers on the same version. I also ran Ultrix 1.1 at an earlier time on the same hardware. ISTR both Ultrix 1.1 and VMS 5.0 fit just fine on the R80. The other thing I did, for my own sanity, was I reordered the files on the console TU58 into the precise order they were requested. Boot time was on the order of 5 minutes, down from 25 minutes. Best I could tell, the console 8085 cached the directory block(s), so the tape practically streamed as it read file after file. Without all that seeking, it was down to the serial speed the tape and console were set to (38.4kbps?) -ethan
Re: Altos ACS 8000-15A
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 3:47 PM, Chris Osborn wrote: > ,,, Altos ACS 8000-15A... nothing spits out on the Console 1 RS232 port. From > what I understand the serial ports are wired DTE (which seems odd since you > use it with terminals) and so I’m using a null modem adapter. Although with > the null modem or without I get nothing. I wouldn't assume anything with serial ports, especially vintage ones. Look into getting a "traffic light" that displays state on LEDs either in red or red/green (depending on how old/expensive the traffic light - I have both kinds). The "easy" way to sniff out a connection with one is to plug the traffic light into only one side of your connection and see which lines are active, then unplug that and plug it only into the other side and see which lines are active. If you have your null-modem/no-null-modem swaps right, the active lines will be complementary on each side. If, say, RxD is active on both, you'll need a null modem. When you have it right, you should see lights blink when one side or the other is trying to talk. Choosing a baud rate slower than 9600 bps makes it easier to see. Also, some hardware needs hardware flow control present and working. Newer stuff is fast enough that mostly, people just do 3-wire serial (RxD, TxD, and GND), but stuff from the 1970s is expecting CTS and RTS and all that to do the proper things. Sometimes, you can just wire up the computer side to always have CTS active and things will work fine since the computer/terminal side can keep up and doesn't have to throttle one character at a time. Frequently, this requirement can be enabled/disabled with jumpers or software settings on the computer side, but if not, you might need a custom console cable. This is part of the joy of serial comms. If you aren't used to debugging line speeds and parity bits and null-padding chars and hardware handshake lines, it can get very frustrating when you try to connect two devices and they won't talk. By the mid-90s, when most serial comms were relegated to various types of modems, many of the earlier limitations were no longer important, but the further back you go, the more parameters you had to get right before traffic flowed. -ethan
Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?
On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 12:20 AM, tony duell wrote: > [My 11/730] > >> Sorry to hear that it's been decabled. Take your time to route those cables >> through the bottom pan properly, > > Yes, it's going to be a lot of work to get it back together. > > I think I am going to start (when I have got the machine room straightened > out, etc) with the 2 parts > of the cable tray on the bench. Route all the cables. Fit the tray to the > rack, then the CPU box slides, then > the CPU box, and connect everything up. And get it right first time, I do not > want to be changing things here. The VAX-11/730 System Installation Guide (EK-SI730-IN-003) has information about how to load the catch pan. Given all the 90 degree and 45 degree folds, it's the sort of thing you only want to do to a fresh cable once. There might also be a specific 11/730-Z detailed installation manual. I have a memory of one but don't know the part number. My memories of those days (we had two 11/730s) is that if you don't do it the way they did, either things won't reach (or be on the wrong side to fit into bulkhead connectors) or you'll have to redo it. https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_decvax730E83_4699164 > Exactly. Which is one reason I am considering a Unibus expansion box. Keep > the CPU with a standard > fixed configuration and have the expansion box with simpler cable routing for > things I want to change. We did have that. It was nearly essential. We had the CPU, memory, and the default (as shipped) peripherals. Everything else went into our BA-11K FWIW, we only had the RB80/RL02 version. Tape was a TU80 with the controller in the BA-11K. Our COMBOARDs also went in the BA-11K, but that was also for our convenience of swapping out our own product for testing and firmware swaps, etc. -ethan
Re: Looking for info on National Semiconductor RAM board (VAX 11/730)
On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 10:58 AM, tony duell wrote: >> I am looking for any information on a National Semiconductor RAM board that >> I think goes in >> a VAX 11/730. > Pressing the > button turns off the yellow LED and completely disables the board. Quite why > you'd want to do this I do > not know... The reason you'd want a button to disable the board is when running diagnostics, you can "remove all the non-DEC memory" without physically removing it. Of course it still could be the source of a problem, but at least operational memory boards can be "deleted" so they don't grossly affect the diagnostic code. It's a "feature" to allow customers to buy less-expensive RAM and still have a way to pass diagnostics without fingerpointing from DEC about that "other" board in there. -ethan
Re: Strange DEC PC05 paper tape reader: doc for M705 needed
On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 10:54 AM, Jörg Hoppe wrote: > Does anybody has a FPMS with schematics for the M705 modul? Perhaps as part > of some PDP-8 doc? The M705 is the standard part in the PC8L (along with the M710 and M715). Vince Slyngstad has some modern schematics here: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M705/ http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M7050/ http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M710/ http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/Mxxx/M715/ -ethan
AT&T terminal keyboards?
Hi, All, I just picked up a couple of AT&T terminals, a 730+ and a 5620 "Blit" terminal. The 730+ powers on, passes self-test and probably would work great if I had a keyboard for it. The 5620 lights the CRT but doesn't appear to work outside of presenting a huge green dot the size of the raster. It also lacks a keyboard. I have hopes that it's something simple like wonky internal connectors that need to be reseated (vs bad components). I read on one of the several FAQs that I can use an AT&T 4410 terminal keyboard with the 730+. The box has an 8p8c jack. Additionally, from the same source, I got a 3B1/7300 keyboard and mouse. It happens to have an 8-pin 0.1" female connector in a barbed-lock housing. Outside of the connector, the key layout is superficially the same as a picture I saw of a 730+/4410 keyboard. What I'm curious about is if they are electrically compatible - i.e., could one make an 8p8c->2x4 pin header pin swabber and have the 3B1 keyboard work on the 730+? I won't shocked if they are entirely different, but there are enough superficial similarities that I'm minded to at least ask. I've found the trove of old Blit apps, etc. and see how tortuous the path is to get layers working, etc., but for now, I've got a couple old terminals that are entirely unlike any of the DEC terminals I have, so that by itself is cool. Thanks for any deep knowledge of these guys that isn't already covered on the FAQs. -ethan
Re: AT&T terminal keyboards?
On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks >>I just picked up a couple of AT&T terminals, a 730+ and a 5620 "Blit" >>terminal. > > Some people have *all* the luck. I used to work at Bell Labs/Lucent/Western Electric in Columbus. Someone else who worked there that I still have lunch with regularly was cleaning out his garage... >>I read on one of the several FAQs that I can use an AT&T 4410 terminal >>keyboard with the 730+. > > It's been a long time, but I'm pretty sure the keyboard is the same across > the AT&T 600 & 700 series terminal lines. I'm pretty sure the 4410 is the > same. That's what I've been reading. I just don't have anything remotely of the sort. > Not sure if anyone has tried to build it in a decade or so, but it did at > one time build on BSD 4.x. Obviously SVr3 and SVr4 are easier. No idea > about Linux, but I suspect it would be painful. I wasn't going to force it onto Linux... I am pretty sure I have all the discs for Interactive UNIX for the 386/486 hanging around, though. That should be SYSVish and not so painful. >>but for now, I've got a couple >>old terminals that are entirely unlike any of the DEC terminals I have, > so that by itself is cool. > > Rub it in :-) If you want to buy a DEC terminal and happen to be going to VCFmw at the end of August, I would bring one out. They are somewhat heavy to ship and need a very large box. -ethan
Re: Where to get a Vax or microvax
On Tue, Jun 30, 2015 at 9:33 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > If you have some storage, then you can lose a microcomputer. Oh, yeah. > If you lose a minicomputer, then you have a lot of storage. I recently found an 11/730 I thought I had to get rid of in 1994... (turns out I got rid of a spare we bought to harvest parts from. I kept the working one. Now to refurb the TU58) > If you lose a mainframe, then you have ENOUGH storage. Hasn't happened yet. -ethan
Re: VAX-11/750 registry (Was: Reviving a VAX-11/750)
On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 1:44 PM, Sean Caron wrote: > I love those server hoists... the data center that I work in at U-M has two > of them, however they are made by Genie and they are a hand-crank type, no > automatic lift. They easily turn a job that could require two, three or > even four people into a job that can be quickly done by one person. I > really wish I had one for home! :O We never had those back when I managed rooms with a dozen H960s. I wanted one then, and I'd love one now. We just did it the hard way - 2-3 people juggling 100 lb boxes in the air... not recommended, I know, but it's what we did. -ethan
Re: Time to dig out some of my DEC XX2247 keys
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 8:39 PM, Ali wrote: >> Surely any competent locksmith could turn out one of these for less >> money, complete with the stamp... The key is "easy" (from the right place). The stamp is a little harder these days, since not everyone has the stamps. > Maybe on the DEC keys but trying to make a key for an IBM lock proved > impossible (i.e. make a key from the lock - not copy a key). Most lock smith > I talked to said they did not do that kind of work. The entire point of "XX2247" is that's the code that a locksmith needs to cut a key from a blank. They need an ACE code cutting machine. You have to go to a "real" commercial locksmith, not a hardware store that copies house and car keys. I've done it. ISTR it was around $8-$10 for one key. Might be $15 now. Copying pretty much always cheaper than code cuts, but you have to find someone that can cut ACE tubular keys at all (vending machines, etc). -ethan
Re: Time to dig out some of my DEC XX2247 keys
On Wed, Jul 15, 2015 at 9:48 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 07/15/2015 06:37 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> Heck, I could crank out at least 40 of them tonight... >> I guess I'll just need to pass on that extra $4000 >> of income. :D > > Just think of what they'd go for if they were *gold-plated*... With rosewood handles... -ethan
