RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Martin Bishop via cctalk]

Hi Eric

I have a pair of light boxes and a CRO on the job:

-  Modular Technology MT25-IV on the PPR side,

-  BlackBox TS50A on the D-9 side,

-  CRO on p2 & p3

This unit says it takes and is receiving 220V power

I can see codes going to the unit, but nothing coming out – stuck at logical 
zero (-7.5 V)

I could start to believe that the RS232 driver may have an issue

It sounds as though your experience is feed tape and out come the octets ?

Martin
From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com]
Sent: 10 April 2022 02:01
To: Martin Bishop 
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite 
working

Hi Martin, do you have an RS232 light box like this one?

RS232 Breakout Tester LED Monitor, DB9 Male to Female Breakout Module 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CDQ76Q8/

I am so confused why you are not seeing anything, I have had 3 PPRs (2 bartered 
away) and never had any issues except a broken punch pin and one needing 220V 
power.

-Eric


On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 7:18 PM Martin Bishop 
mailto:mjd.bis...@emeritus-solutions.com>> 
wrote:
Eric

Thank you for the manual and the suggestion of pulling all the jumpers.  With 
all but jumper 1 out, it punches and remote starts (Xon) the reader at 4800 
8N1; unchanged functionality.  However, still, nothing is emitted from the 232 
for consumption by Putty.

Unfortunately, the SystemP manual contains identical pages on the PPR to those 
in the PPR’s own manual.  Nonetheless useful as context, and for perusal in 
slow time.

Martin

From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com]
Sent: 10 April 2022 00:09
To: Martin Bishop 
mailto:mjd.bis...@emeritus-solutions.com>>; 
General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>>
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite 
working

http://vtda.org/docs/computing/FANUC/B-54111E-02_FANUC_System_P_Model_G_Operators_1983.pdf

Here you are, I knew I scanned the manual. This has all the jumper settings, 
and instructions on local vs remote modes.

-Eric



On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 5:50 PM Eric Moore 
mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans.

https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A

Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I found at 
one point the jumper settings, but will need to search.

-Eric


On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk 
mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in translation 
and limited in scope.

Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the serial port.  
In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies (based on a QL).  In also 
drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due to BCD coding or 
perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured as no check).  The reader 
'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in response to front panel 
keys.  However, nothing is emitted onto 232.  The D25 - D-9 transition has all 
the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted appropriately and indicating 
'correctly' on blinkenlites.  Interestingly, on long test tapes the reader does 
not fall off the end but stops, repeatably after ~49" which is remarkably close 
to 512 octets.  Finally, the CNC termination octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : 
RS-244) don't seem to impress the reader - nothing changes.

Specific queries:
- Are there any magic control codes or handshaking rituals to coax data out of 
the reader
- Is the PPR to CNC Controller interface protocol manual available as pdf
- Where can I find drawings for the PPR's electronics, most importantly the 
main board (with its 8031)
- Suggestions on how to proceed with setting to work / fault diagnosis
- Has anyone house trained one of these to read PDP-11 absolute binary tapes, 
their target market was G code (text)

Martin

RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Martin Bishop via cctalk]

Fred

You have a good measure of my problem.

As for my expertise: its 40 years since I left schoool with a PhD in Signal 
Processing, I'm currently designing with Xilinx Zynqs, and if the RS232 driver 
has to be pulled there is a Pace SX-80 on the bench in the workshop.

I have a pair of light boxes and a CRO on the job:
-   Modular Technology MT25-IV on the PPR side (first outing in 20+ years), 
-   BlackBox TS50A on the D-9 side, 
-   CRO on p2 & p3

The CRO can see codes (at 4800 baud) going to the unit, but nothing coming out 
- stuck at logical zero (-7.5 V).  Putty talks to the PPR - characters to 
punch, Xon starts reader, etc.  Putty etc also talks to other hardware, i.e. 
its been tested.

 Sometimes devices, at either end of the cable, have unexpected 
requirements,that are not usual parts of the RS232 "standard".   That, 
essentially is my question, before I start chasing a hardware / driver issue.  
Although, to date, I have drawn a blank.

Knitting, first the D25 with pins on the PPR's OEM cable (pin : C/I/O(wrt PPR) 
: color : presumed function):
1 - C - black - chassis ground
2 - I - yellow - TXD fr Pc to PPR (evidenced by lites / CRO)
3 - O - brown - RXD fr PPR to PC (evidenced by lites / -7v5 voltage)
4 - I - green - RTS
5 - O - yellow - CTS
6 - O - gray - DSR
7 - C - orange - signal gnd
8 - I - brown - DCD
20 - I - jumper (grey) to pin 8 - DTR 
Note no other pins, esp 9 13 18 the D-25 current loop pins; therefore unlikely 
to be either current loop serial or 8 bit parallel (and the volts are not TTL).

D-25 to D-9 knitting (D25(PPR) : Direction : D9(Pc/FTDI 232) : function):
7 -- 5 common gnd
2 <- 3 TxD from Pc to PPR
3 -> 2 RxD from PPR to Pc
4 <- 7 RTS from Pc to PPR
5 -> 8 CTS from PPR to Pc
6 -> 6 & 1 DSR from PPR to Pc (DSR & DCD)
8 & 20 <- 4 DCD & DTR from Pc (DTR) to PPR (DCD & DTR)
Note I'm well aware that RTS to RTS etc is not normative, however the volts 
tell another story; presume I have a pair of DTEs / DCEs

Equally the classic quick bodge terminal (D-25) end jumpers don't deliver a 
result:
4-5 RTS-CTS
6-8-20 DSR-DTR-DCD

Thanks for your interest in my problem, and motivating me to open / inspect the 
D-25.

Martin

-Original Message-
From: Fred Cisin [mailto:ci...@xenosoft.com] 
Sent: 10 April 2022 03:06
To: Eric Moore ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts 
Cc: Martin Bishop 
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite 
working

> to front panel keys.  However, nothing is emitted onto 232.  The D25 - 
> D-9 transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted 
> appropriately and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites.

I don't know anything about that specific setup, nor anaything aabout your 
personal expertise.

When you say "nothing on 232", is thatr per looking at the wires of the cable?  
Or just not getting anything displayed by Putty?

When you say "knitted appropriately", since that is NOT referring to "as per 
the manual" (or is it?), have you checked all inputs and outputs?
Sometimes devices, at either end of the cable, have unexpected 
requirements,that are not usual parts of the RS232 "standard".

For example, I was once asked by the "Radio Shack Computer Center" to help them 
connect a Votrax to a Model 2 (for a blind customer).  They had tried all of 
the obvious commodity "null modems", etc.  I used a "matrix switch", but also 
had to solder one additional jumper for a pin that is not "normally" used for 
such things, and no obvious reason for being used. 
I no longer remember which pin; it was possibly #10 or #12, but it might just 
have been #22 ("ring indicator").  To avoid the bureaucratic administrative 
nonsense needed for them to pay me, I accepted a gift of a Model 2 Technical 
Reference manual as compensation.

RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Martin Bishop via cctalk]

Bill

Your link to https://www.vintagecomputer.net/fanuc/FanucManuals1788.pdf "Fanuc 
System 6T-Model B" is very helpful.

The reader fitted to the PPR is a A860-0066-T001.  The readers referenced in 
the manual are close relatives.

Importantly, the manual provides significantly more detail on calibration and 
lubrication that the PPR manual.  Specifically:
- p 2 Block diagram
- p 7 Block diagram
- P 11 .. 20 Tape reader preventative maintenance (i.e. oiling)
- p 62 .. 63 Tape reader fault finding; esp node 13 -- use black tape
- p 81 .. 83 tape reader photo amplifier adjustment, tape pattern 
specification, observations and objectives (not in PPR manual - although not 
all applicable ?)
- p84 System connection diagram
- p 368 .. 369 Tape codes (ISO & EIA) - useful crib
- p 384 .. 385 Tape Reader lubricant specifications

None of the foregoing has resolved my problem.  However, I now know that you 
have to adjust for tape color p 82 note 2.  And, page 81 provides the cookery 
for a "zig zag" tape [referenced by pages 47 & 48 of the PPR operators manual]. 

Next step, make loop tapes (black and yellow) and attempt photo-amplifier 
adjustment.

Martin

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill Degnan 
via cctalk
Sent: 10 April 2022 00:14
To: Eric Moore ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite 
working

I have a dostek 440a for sale and notes about my fanuc tape unit here.
https://www.vintagecomputer.net/fanuc/index.cfm

On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 6:51 PM Eric Moore via cctalk 
wrote:

> Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans.
>
> https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A
>
> Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I 
> found at one point the jumper settings, but will need to search.
>
> -Eric
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk < 
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
>
> > A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in 
> > translation and limited in scope.
> >
> > Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the 
> > serial port.  In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies 
> > (based on a
> QL).
> > In also drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due 
> > to BCD coding or perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured 
> > as no
> check).
> > The reader 'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in
> response
> > to front panel keys.  However, nothing is emitted onto 232.  The D25 
> > -
> D-9
> > transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted
> appropriately
> > and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites.  Interestingly, on long 
> > test tapes the reader does not fall off the end but stops, 
> > repeatably after
> ~49"
> > which is remarkably close to 512 octets.  Finally, the CNC 
> > termination octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : RS-244) don't seem to 
> > impress the
> reader
> > - nothing changes.
> >
> > Specific queries:
> > - Are there any magic control codes or handshaking rituals to coax 
> > data out of the reader
> > - Is the PPR to CNC Controller interface protocol manual available 
> > as pdf
> > - Where can I find drawings for the PPR's electronics, most 
> > importantly the main board (with its 8031)
> > - Suggestions on how to proceed with setting to work / fault 
> > diagnosis
> > - Has anyone house trained one of these to read PDP-11 absolute 
> > binary tapes, their target market was G code (text)
> >
> > Martin
> >
>

Re: Possibly going up to VCF, stuff I would like to sell/get to proper people pdp8/12/HP stuff

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 4/9/2022 2:42 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote:

Hi all!

I'm thinking about going up to VCF in Wall next weekend. I haven't been 
to it since it was the Trenton Computer Fest (think late 1990's) so I'm 
not sure what the protocol is on tailgating, trading stuff or whatnot. 
Appears that they have a "sale room" you drop things off in with prices. 
Ok


Things I could "sell" if anyone's interested:
HP1000e computer, dead power supply, basic boards, no advanced memory.
HP9825B likewise does not power up, but it's there.
Microvax 2 boards, stuff like that.
Spare 11/24 CPU boards (I have a bunch, all work, no idea why I have all 
them)




My 11/24 wouldn't mind having a spare CPU and/or Unibus Map - but I 
won't be at VCF.


JRJ

Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Eric Moore via cctalk]

Yep! That is my experience in remote mode, both driven via the panel or
remotely.

You know more than I do, I hope you get it figured out soon! The PPR is
super fun to have on the bench if you have tapes to read or especially if
you have a computer that works with paper tape.

-Eric



On Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 4:44 AM Martin Bishop <
mjd.bis...@emeritus-solutions.com> wrote:

> Hi Eric
>
>
>
> I have a pair of light boxes and a CRO on the job:
>
> -  Modular Technology MT25-IV on the PPR side,
>
> -  BlackBox TS50A on the D-9 side,
>
> -  CRO on p2 & p3
>
>
>
> This unit says it takes and is receiving 220V power
>
>
>
> I can see codes going to the unit, but nothing coming out – stuck at
> logical zero (-7.5 V)
>
>
>
> I could start to believe that the RS232 driver may have an issue
>
>
>
> It sounds as though your experience is feed tape and out come the octets ?
>
>
>
> Martin
>
> *From:* Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 10 April 2022 02:01
> *To:* Martin Bishop 
> *Cc:* General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> *Subject:* Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not
> quite working
>
>
>
> Hi Martin, do you have an RS232 light box like this one?
>
>
>
> RS232 Breakout Tester LED Monitor, DB9 Male to Female Breakout Module
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CDQ76Q8/
>
>
>
> I am so confused why you are not seeing anything, I have had 3 PPRs (2
> bartered away) and never had any issues except a broken punch pin and one
> needing 220V power.
>
>
>
> -Eric
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 7:18 PM Martin Bishop <
> mjd.bis...@emeritus-solutions.com> wrote:
>
> Eric
>
>
>
> Thank you for the manual and the suggestion of pulling all the jumpers.
> With all but jumper 1 out, it punches and remote starts (Xon) the reader at
> 4800 8N1; unchanged functionality.  However, still, nothing is emitted from
> the 232 for consumption by Putty.
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, the SystemP manual contains identical pages on the PPR to
> those in the PPR’s own manual.  Nonetheless useful as context, and for
> perusal in slow time.
>
>
>
> Martin
>
>
>
> *From:* Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* 10 April 2022 00:09
> *To:* Martin Bishop ; General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> *Subject:* Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not
> quite working
>
>
>
>
> http://vtda.org/docs/computing/FANUC/B-54111E-02_FANUC_System_P_Model_G_Operators_1983.pdf
>
>
>
> Here you are, I knew I scanned the manual. This has all the jumper
> settings, and instructions on local vs remote modes.
>
>
>
> -Eric
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 5:50 PM Eric Moore  wrote:
>
> Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans.
>
>
>
> https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A
>
>
>
> Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I
> found at one point the jumper settings, but will need to search.
>
>
>
> -Eric
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in
> translation and limited in scope.
>
> Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the serial
> port.  In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies (based on a QL).
> In also drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due to BCD
> coding or perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured as no check).
> The reader 'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in response
> to front panel keys.  However, nothing is emitted onto 232.  The D25 - D-9
> transition has all the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted appropriately
> and indicating 'correctly' on blinkenlites.  Interestingly, on long test
> tapes the reader does not fall off the end but stops, repeatably after ~49"
> which is remarkably close to 512 octets.  Finally, the CNC termination
> octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : RS-244) don't seem to impress the reader
> - nothing changes.
>
> Specific queries:
> - Are there any magic control codes or handshaking rituals to coax data
> out of the reader
> - Is the PPR to CNC Controller interface protocol manual available as pdf
> - Where can I find drawings for the PPR's electronics, most importantly
> the main board (with its 8031)
> - Suggestions on how to proceed with setting to work / fault diagnosis
> - Has anyone house trained one of these to read PDP-11 absolute binary
> tapes, their target market was G code (text)
>
> Martin
>
>

RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Martin Bishop via cctalk]

Eric

Thanks for confirmation the reader should “just work”.   Unfortunately it does 
not ...

One other specific : can the PPR punch absolute binary tapes, e.g. for a 
PDP-11, one potential use.  Or, is it limited to “alpha numeric” ASCII.  Using 
the native controller, I can’t see any way of geting it to punch e.g. DC1 .. 
DC4, they control the logic and are absorbed prior to the punch.  Is there an 
escape sequence ?

The reader does not want to cal:
- the procedure is in the PPR Operators manual [B-54584E/01 p 47-48]
- the tape is a loop of U* with even parity, taken from ano Fanuc manual [see 
my 10 1314A Apr 21]
- the tape feeds, but none of the indications illuminate : 50/60 Hz, sprocket 
signal, channel signal
- beyond my doing it incorrectly (tried a few times), I would wonder if either 
lamp or optos are kaput

Consequently, signal tracing to / from the reader looks the way to go, and the 
place to start is probably the sprocket opto.  A job for another "weekend", 
preferably with the circuits to hand - although I have seen no sign of any.

Martin

From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 10 April 2022 17:23
To: Martin Bishop 
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite 
working

Yep! That is my experience in remote mode, both driven via the panel or 
remotely.

You know more than I do, I hope you get it figured out soon! The PPR is super 
fun to have on the bench if you have tapes to read or especially if you have a 
computer that works with paper tape.

-Eric



On Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 4:44 AM Martin Bishop  
wrote:
Hi Eric
 
I have a pair of light boxes and a CRO on the job:
-  Modular Technology MT25-IV on the PPR side, 
-  BlackBox TS50A on the D-9 side, 
-  CRO on p2 & p3
 
This unit says it takes and is receiving 220V power
 
I can see codes going to the unit, but nothing coming out – stuck at logical 
zero (-7.5 V)
 
I could start to believe that the RS232 driver may have an issue 
 
It sounds as though your experience is feed tape and out come the octets ?
 
Martin
From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 10 April 2022 02:01
To: Martin Bishop 
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite 
working
 
Hi Martin, do you have an RS232 light box like this one?
 
RS232 Breakout Tester LED Monitor, DB9 Male to Female Breakout Module 
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CDQ76Q8/
 
I am so confused why you are not seeing anything, I have had 3 PPRs (2 bartered 
away) and never had any issues except a broken punch pin and one needing 220V 
power. 
 
-Eric
 
 
On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 7:18 PM Martin Bishop  
wrote:
Eric
 
Thank you for the manual and the suggestion of pulling all the jumpers.  With 
all but jumper 1 out, it punches and remote starts (Xon) the reader at 4800 
8N1; unchanged functionality.  However, still, nothing is emitted from the 232 
for consumption by Putty.
 
Unfortunately, the SystemP manual contains identical pages on the PPR to those 
in the PPR’s own manual.  Nonetheless useful as context, and for perusal in 
slow time.
 
Martin
 
From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 10 April 2022 00:09
To: Martin Bishop ; General Discussion: 
On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite 
working
 
http://vtda.org/docs/computing/FANUC/B-54111E-02_FANUC_System_P_Model_G_Operators_1983.pdf
 
Here you are, I knew I scanned the manual. This has all the jumper settings, 
and instructions on local vs remote modes.
 
-Eric
 
 
 
On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 5:50 PM Eric Moore  wrote:
Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans.
 
https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A
 
Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I found at 
one point the jumper settings, but will need to search.
 
-Eric
 
 
On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk  
wrote:
A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in translation 
and limited in scope.

Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the serial port.  
In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies (based on a QL).  In also 
drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due to BCD coding or 
perhaps due to invalid parity (which is configured as no check).  The reader 
'reads' tape both in response to X/ON over RS232 and in response to front panel 
keys.  However, nothing is emitted onto 232.  The D25 - D-9 transition has all 
the RTS/CTS and DSR/DTR/DCD lines knitted appropriately and indicating 
'correctly' on blinkenlites.  Interestingly, on long test tapes the reader does 
not fall off the end but stops, repeatably after ~49" which is remarkably close 
to 512 octets.  Finally, the CNC termination octets : % (ASCII) and 0x80 (BCD : 
RS-244) don't seem to impress the reader - nothing changes.

RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Martin Bishop via cctalk]

Chuck

Thank you for the parallel port suggestion.  I followed it up by opening the 
D-25 and reviewing the wiring.  It looks very RS232 to me, the pin out I found 
is detailed in my 10 1314A Apr 22.  That the punch and reader respond to RS232 
input I think settles the issue - I was briefly optimistic ...

Martin

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis 
via cctalk
Sent: 10 April 2022 03:29
To: Martin Bishop via cctalk 
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite 
working

On 4/9/22 17:26, Martin Bishop via cctalk wrote:
> Bill
> 
> Thanks for the offer of the DosTek 440a.  However, my problem is getting the 
> 232 output to wiggle a CRO not to input and log the serial data.
> 
> Fanuc manuals 1788.pdf, on VintageComputer.net, looks as though it contains 
> more detail than the PPR and System P manuals and may reward study.
> 

Are you certain that the interface isn't wired for current loop?  A lot of 
these CNC (I'm assuming that this Fanuc unit falls in that category) used the 
CL interface.  Connector's the D-25.

--Chuck

Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/10/22 11:08, Martin Bishop wrote:
> Chuck
> 
> Thank you for the parallel port suggestion.  I followed it up by opening the 
> D-25 and reviewing the wiring.  It looks very RS232 to me, the pin out I 
> found is detailed in my 10 1314A Apr 22.  That the punch and reader respond 
> to RS232 input I think settles the issue - I was briefly optimistic ...


No, not parallel port, but 20 ma current loop.   Used extensively in
teletype/industrial work.   Still serial, but suited to long-haul or
noisy environments.   The original IBM PC serial card could be
configured for CL.  The advantage is that it's not voltage-sensitive per
se, but rather to the current flowing through the loop.  On long hauls,
one could raise the voltage until the proper current level was obtained.
 RS232C, on the other hand is strictly voltage-sensitive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_loop for details.

But it sounds as if you have a bog-standard RS232C setup.

Very old teletype setups used, I believe 60 ma. CL.

--Chuck

Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Eric Moore via cctalk]

Yep! You can absolutely punch straight binary to tape. There is an escape,
the details escape me but are enshrined in my silly network attached paper
tape program:

https://github.com/emooreatx/FANUC-PPR

-Eric


On Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 12:43 PM Martin Bishop <
mjd.bis...@emeritus-solutions.com> wrote:

> Eric
>
> Thanks for confirmation the reader should “just work”.   Unfortunately it
> does not ...
>
> One other specific : can the PPR punch absolute binary tapes, e.g. for a
> PDP-11, one potential use.  Or, is it limited to “alpha numeric” ASCII.
> Using the native controller, I can’t see any way of geting it to punch e.g.
> DC1 .. DC4, they control the logic and are absorbed prior to the punch.  Is
> there an escape sequence ?
>
> The reader does not want to cal:
> - the procedure is in the PPR Operators manual [B-54584E/01 p 47-48]
> - the tape is a loop of U* with even parity, taken from ano Fanuc manual
> [see my 10 1314A Apr 21]
> - the tape feeds, but none of the indications illuminate : 50/60 Hz,
> sprocket signal, channel signal
> - beyond my doing it incorrectly (tried a few times), I would wonder if
> either lamp or optos are kaput
>
> Consequently, signal tracing to / from the reader looks the way to go, and
> the place to start is probably the sprocket opto.  A job for another
> "weekend", preferably with the circuits to hand - although I have seen no
> sign of any.
>
> Martin
>
> From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 10 April 2022 17:23
> To: Martin Bishop 
> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite
> working
>
> Yep! That is my experience in remote mode, both driven via the panel or
> remotely.
>
> You know more than I do, I hope you get it figured out soon! The PPR is
> super fun to have on the bench if you have tapes to read or especially if
> you have a computer that works with paper tape.
>
> -Eric
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 10, 2022, 4:44 AM Martin Bishop <
> mjd.bis...@emeritus-solutions.com> wrote:
> Hi Eric
>
> I have a pair of light boxes and a CRO on the job:
> -  Modular Technology MT25-IV on the PPR side,
> -  BlackBox TS50A on the D-9 side,
> -  CRO on p2 & p3
>
> This unit says it takes and is receiving 220V power
>
> I can see codes going to the unit, but nothing coming out – stuck at
> logical zero (-7.5 V)
>
> I could start to believe that the RS232 driver may have an issue
>
> It sounds as though your experience is feed tape and out come the octets ?
>
> Martin
> From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 10 April 2022 02:01
> To: Martin Bishop 
> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite
> working
>
> Hi Martin, do you have an RS232 light box like this one?
>
> RS232 Breakout Tester LED Monitor, DB9 Male to Female Breakout Module
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08CDQ76Q8/
>
> I am so confused why you are not seeing anything, I have had 3 PPRs (2
> bartered away) and never had any issues except a broken punch pin and one
> needing 220V power.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 7:18 PM Martin Bishop <
> mjd.bis...@emeritus-solutions.com> wrote:
> Eric
>
> Thank you for the manual and the suggestion of pulling all the jumpers.
> With all but jumper 1 out, it punches and remote starts (Xon) the reader at
> 4800 8N1; unchanged functionality.  However, still, nothing is emitted from
> the 232 for consumption by Putty.
>
> Unfortunately, the SystemP manual contains identical pages on the PPR to
> those in the PPR’s own manual.  Nonetheless useful as context, and for
> perusal in slow time.
>
> Martin
>
> From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com]
> Sent: 10 April 2022 00:09
> To: Martin Bishop ; General
> Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite
> working
>
>
> http://vtda.org/docs/computing/FANUC/B-54111E-02_FANUC_System_P_Model_G_Operators_1983.pdf
>
> Here you are, I knew I scanned the manual. This has all the jumper
> settings, and instructions on local vs remote modes.
>
> -Eric
>
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 5:50 PM Eric Moore  wrote:
> Hi Martin, I use the PPR for all kinds of paper tape shennanigans.
>
> https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A
>
> Remove all but the first jumper, and that may help with your issues. I
> found at one point the jumper settings, but will need to search.
>
> -Eric
>
>
> On Sat, Apr 9, 2022, 4:56 PM Martin Bishop via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> A nicely made yellow box with a rather poor manual - both lost in
> translation and limited in scope.
>
> Working on setting one to work, but can't get anything out of the serial
> port.  In drives the punch, and the punched data verifies (based on a QL).
> In also drives the printer, although somewhat garbled, perhaps due to BCD
> coding or perhap

RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Martin Bishop via cctalk]

Chuck

My error, you said 20 mA current loop, I bowdlerised it as parallel port.  I 
have a punch with a parallel interface ...  I can't recollect ever using a 
current loop interface on equipment, although I have met many in old documents. 
 4 .. 20 mA current loops reporting e.g. pressure actuated potentiometers are 
however old friends, if that is the correct term.  As you observe current loop 
has good noise immunity.

Martin

-Original Message-
From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:ccl...@sydex.com] 
Sent: 10 April 2022 20:08
To: Martin Bishop 
Cc: CCtalk 
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite 
working

On 4/10/22 11:08, Martin Bishop wrote:
> Chuck
> 
> Thank you for the parallel port suggestion.  I followed it up by opening the 
> D-25 and reviewing the wiring.  It looks very RS232 to me, the pin out I 
> found is detailed in my 10 1314A Apr 22.  That the punch and reader respond 
> to RS232 input I think settles the issue - I was briefly optimistic ...


No, not parallel port, but 20 ma current loop.   Used extensively in
teletype/industrial work.   Still serial, but suited to long-haul or
noisy environments.   The original IBM PC serial card could be
configured for CL.  The advantage is that it's not voltage-sensitive per se, 
but rather to the current flowing through the loop.  On long hauls, one could 
raise the voltage until the proper current level was obtained.
 RS232C, on the other hand is strictly voltage-sensitive.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Current_loop for details.

But it sounds as if you have a bog-standard RS232C setup.

Very old teletype setups used, I believe 60 ma. CL.

--Chuck

RE: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Martin Bishop via cctalk]

Eric

Thanks for the link and insight.

$11, $12, $13, $14 $1B, $93 - preface with $1B (esc) and all should be well. 

Martin

From: Eric Moore [mailto:mooreeric...@gmail.com] 
Sent: 10 April 2022 20:23
To: Martin Bishop 
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite 
working

Yep! You can absolutely punch straight binary to tape. There is an escape, the 
details escape me but are enshrined in my silly network attached paper tape 
program:

https://github.com/emooreatx/FANUC-PPR

-Eric

<< snip >>

Re: Possibly going up to VCF, stuff I would like to sell/get to proper people pdp8/12/HP stuff

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 3:43 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
 wrote:
> I'm thinking about going up to VCF in Wall next weekend.

22-24 Apr, as mentioned...

I should be there too.

> I haven't been
> to it since it was the Trenton Computer Fest (think late 1990's)

Totally unrelated event.

> so I'm
> not sure what the protocol is on tailgating, trading stuff or whatnot.
> Appears that they have a "sale room" you drop things off in with prices.
> Ok

Yes.  There's a "consignment room" and you leave your stuff with
labels and prices and there are volunteers staffing it to collect
money and record sales, etc.  There's a house cut (but I am unsure how
much it is so I don't want to just guess).

> Stuff I could bring to get out of my house and into the right hands:
>
> Big box of pdp12 schematics. This came from my olden days when I had to
> turn up a pdp12 because it will not fit in a station wagon. Still it
> looks like board locations and a lot of 12 stuff. Big box, heavy to
> ship, easier to drive over.
>
> Ton of pdp8/12 IO cables. These are the black circular wire ones, I
> think negibus.

There's definitely some discussion going on about those.  They are
desired by 12-bit folks.

-ethan

Re: Possibly going up to VCF, stuff I would like to sell/get to proper people pdp8/12/HP stuff

[Mike Loewen via cctalk]

On Sun, 10 Apr 2022, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote:


On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 3:43 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
 wrote:

I'm thinking about going up to VCF in Wall next weekend.


Yes.  There's a "consignment room" and you leave your stuff with
labels and prices and there are volunteers staffing it to collect
money and record sales, etc.  There's a house cut (but I am unsure how
much it is so I don't want to just guess).


   VCF takes 15% of the sale price:

https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-east/vcf-east-consignment/


Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Dialcom, Telenet and The Source was Re: restoring a Silent 700 Model 765

[Cameron Kaiser via cctalk]

>>> 301 24 CONNECTED
>>> DIALCOM NETWORK SYSTEM 10
>>>
>> Please do scan these! It is hard as hell getting info on The Source
>> and also on Dialcom!
> 
> Yes, I definitely plan to transcribe them. There is potentially some
> copyrighted material here but I think I can just excerpt that and still 
> include
> all the rest of the login process, etc.
> 
> Still, would be nice to get the terminal itself working and see what's in the
> ASR's bubble memory, assuming that's still operational, so any ideas people
> have would be appreciated.
> 

I've now transcribed the teletype transcripts and included some scans from the
manual, including a nice picture from InfoWorld in 1984 of the Prime hardware.

https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/04/tonight-were-gonna-log-on-like-its-1979.html

-- 
 personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
  Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckai...@floodgap.com
-- Humor is a drug which it's the fashion to abuse. -- William Gilbert 

Re: Dialcom, Telenet and The Source was Re: restoring a Silent 700 Model 765

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Wow.

Thanks for an excellent trip down memory lane. One oddity, I think I was 
dialing into TYMNET as when I would call in it would say.


PLEASE TYPE YOUR TERMINAL IDENTIFIER
You would type "A" for ASCII. This would print very slowly, character by 
character at about 110 baud. I think it was for either ASCII or EBCDIC.


Then you would get
PLEASE LOG IN

And I'd type something.

Then it would say:
P400 is online
Please sign on.

At which point you would type ID and your source username and password.

Great for playing Star Trek if I recall. The version I remember would 
actually have the Klingon attack you even while you were typing, IE it 
was not a turn by turn game. Fun


CZ

On 4/10/2022 7:31 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote:

301 24 CONNECTED
DIALCOM NETWORK SYSTEM 10


Please do scan these! It is hard as hell getting info on The Source
and also on Dialcom!


Yes, I definitely plan to transcribe them. There is potentially some
copyrighted material here but I think I can just excerpt that and still include
all the rest of the login process, etc.

Still, would be nice to get the terminal itself working and see what's in the
ASR's bubble memory, assuming that's still operational, so any ideas people
have would be appreciated.



I've now transcribed the teletype transcripts and included some scans from the
manual, including a nice picture from InfoWorld in 1984 of the Prime hardware.

https://oldvcr.blogspot.com/2022/04/tonight-were-gonna-log-on-like-its-1979.html

Re: Fanuc PPR - Paper Tape Punch, Printer and Reader : Not quite working

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/10/22 12:23, Martin Bishop wrote:
> Chuck
> 
> My error, you said 20 mA current loop, I bowdlerised it as parallel port.  I 
> have a punch with a parallel interface ...  I can't recollect ever using a 
> current loop interface on equipment, although I have met many in old 
> documents.  4 .. 20 mA current loops reporting e.g. pressure actuated 
> potentiometers are however old friends, if that is the correct term.  As you 
> observe current loop has good noise immunity.

There is a tie-in to parallel port, although somewhat tangentially.
Back in the 80s and 90s, CL was promoted as a long-haul solution to (as
well as other things) distant printers.  In particular, I remember Inmac
flogging them.

--Chuck