Re: VAX /785 docs

[Todd Goodman via cctalk]

On 6/25/2020 7:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

On 6/12/20 10:45 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

On 6/12/20 9:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:

/785 docs are very rare (Bitsvers only has prints)
so a VAX person should grab this and then scan them.


done.. though I really shouldn't be spending money right now




Just uploaded the scan to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/785
Unfortunately it is the users manual and not the CPU technical manual


Thank you Al!!

Re: IDE Hard Drive Question

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 6/25/2020 11:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote:

On 6/25/20 4:12 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote:

On 06/25/2020 05:29 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote:

Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why?
And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent this
IDE-SD converter from working?



Temperature sensor and heater.  Undoubtedly for start-up in extreme cold
conditions.

Certainly looks like that to me also.  Sits right atop the spindle motor.

--Chuck

The drive spec I found for the Conner cfs540a (this drive) shows an 
operating range of 5c to 55c.


The top of the range is useful for mil operations, but the 5c spec would 
be bad if you ran the drive.


Full military just a casual google says is -55c, and extended industrial 
is -40c on the bottom.  We
did -40 specs for some of our projects, but nothing mechanical. The are 
at -40c to 60c for nonoperating,
so would be close to the low range if they could heat the spindle, and 
let the drive heat itself up.


One issue might be that the sensor will heat up this dongle and allow 
the thing to run, but there may
be a provision to spin the drive before it is expected to run.  A heat 
up or warmup feature might

be performed besides what Jon suggested with the heater / sensor.

I suspect this thing has to heat up and be at temp before something in 
the bios or otherwise allows

the drive to run.

The OP might look around and see if there are any of the heater strips 
around as well, to allow

heating in the drive box as needed.

I may have one of these systems with some extra drives, and the good 
news is they guy I bought them
from if mine are the same or of similar spec, is that he was putting 
drives in the boxes from random
drive buys and they were easy to run.  He didn't recall the spindle 
dongle on his drive pods though.


I'm waiting to hear for sure if the fellow I bought mine from remembers 
the manufacturer.  The system
and an auxiliary box of similar size with more pods came in a deal I 
couldn't pass up.  My box has
got a 486 motherboard and functional 10baseT card running in it.  I plan 
to use one of the pods

to do one of these as solid state to save runtime on the physical disks.


spec I used at:
ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/seagate_utils/allconnr.pdf

Re: IDE Hard Drive Question

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 6/25/20 4:12 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote:
> On 06/25/2020 05:29 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote:
>> Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why?
>> And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent this
>> IDE-SD converter from working?
>>
>>
> Temperature sensor and heater.  Undoubtedly for start-up in extreme cold
> conditions.

Certainly looks like that to me also.  Sits right atop the spindle motor.

--Chuck

Re: A tool many of you may make find useful!

[shadoooo via cctalk]

Hello,
this tool is really similar to "rdfind", which compares file sizes and
content, independently from file name, and is able to create a list of
correspondence, delete duplicate files, and create symbolic links to the
single instance.
This can work on large amounts of files, even on complex directory tree.

Andrea

Re: IDE Hard Drive Question

[dwight via cctalk]

I'd measure the temperature sensor. It is most likely a typical thermistor but 
may be an RTD. Most RTD's are 100 ohm but there are some platinum on ceramic 
that are 1K ohms. Check it both directions with an ohm meter. It might be a 
solid state semiconductor type device. If a resistive device, it can likely be 
replaced by a resistor. If it is 10K thermistor or whatever just replace it 
with a fixed resistor.
Put it in the fridge for a few minutes to see if it is a negative or positive 
temperature coefficient. Once you know that it should be easy to use a value of 
resistor that would tell it that is was at a happy 20c.
You can likely leave the heater leads open.
The temperature sensor is the small black thing. I doubt it is a thermal switch 
but it might be. It is most likely to be around specific resistances of 10 
ohms, 100, 1K or 10K.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of jim stephens via 
cctalk 
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 11:59 PM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: IDE Hard Drive Question



On 6/25/2020 11:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote:
> On 6/25/20 4:12 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote:
>> On 06/25/2020 05:29 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote:
>>> Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why?
>>> And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent this
>>> IDE-SD converter from working?
>>>
>>>
>> Temperature sensor and heater.  Undoubtedly for start-up in extreme cold
>> conditions.
> Certainly looks like that to me also.  Sits right atop the spindle motor.
>
> --Chuck
>
The drive spec I found for the Conner cfs540a (this drive) shows an
operating range of 5c to 55c.

The top of the range is useful for mil operations, but the 5c spec would
be bad if you ran the drive.

Full military just a casual google says is -55c, and extended industrial
is -40c on the bottom.  We
did -40 specs for some of our projects, but nothing mechanical. The are
at -40c to 60c for nonoperating,
so would be close to the low range if they could heat the spindle, and
let the drive heat itself up.

One issue might be that the sensor will heat up this dongle and allow
the thing to run, but there may
be a provision to spin the drive before it is expected to run.  A heat
up or warmup feature might
be performed besides what Jon suggested with the heater / sensor.

I suspect this thing has to heat up and be at temp before something in
the bios or otherwise allows
the drive to run.

The OP might look around and see if there are any of the heater strips
around as well, to allow
heating in the drive box as needed.

I may have one of these systems with some extra drives, and the good
news is they guy I bought them
from if mine are the same or of similar spec, is that he was putting
drives in the boxes from random
drive buys and they were easy to run.  He didn't recall the spindle
dongle on his drive pods though.

I'm waiting to hear for sure if the fellow I bought mine from remembers
the manufacturer.  The system
and an auxiliary box of similar size with more pods came in a deal I
couldn't pass up.  My box has
got a 486 motherboard and functional 10baseT card running in it.  I plan
to use one of the pods
to do one of these as solid state to save runtime on the physical disks.


spec I used at:
ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/seagate_utils/allconnr.pdf

A tool many of you may make find useful!

[Dave Dunfield via cctalk]

>this tool is really similar to "rdfind", which compares file sizes and
>content, independently from file name, and is able to create a list of
>correspondence, delete duplicate files, and create symbolic links to the
>single instance.
>This can work on large amounts of files, even on complex directory tree.

Sounds good, don't know that I saw that one (tend not to look too hard
as I enjoy creating stuff, and what I do is usually smaller, easier to
use - at least for me - and more reliable).

Didn't want to go into a lot of detail as this isn't exactly classic
computer related.. although I expect a lot of classic collectors are
like me and have use for it.

Couple things I implemented in DFF which I don't know of in other tools:

It uses an "index" file - first attempt just used the output of windows: DIR/S
but I found it got big and unworkable fast, and changed from one version of
windows to another. DFF creates its own which is small and consistent,
having only the DIR names, and file sizes + names.

This is normally a temp file, but you can Keep it, just Build it without
processing, and process it later. You can also have DFF append to it so you
can deal with as complex dir structure as you like, by /BAing it in various
places. It can deal with files in arbitrary directory trees on multiple drives
quite easily.

You can also have it place and END marker in the file, which means that
anything you append will be treated differently. Anything before the END
marker is scanned and reported as you expect. After the END marker, files are
considered as possible duplicates, but not checked and reported separately.

And since the "index" file is a text file, you can add to it, change it and
retrieve it's content very easily - you don't need special programs provided
by the tool maker to do unusual things.  Same is true for it's output.

You can also have it list:
  - All files (dups have a dup instance number see below)
  - Only duplicate files
  - Only single files
  - Under each directory, you can get it to list where all the duplicates
are (full path)
This combined with the END marker makes some fairly powerful things possible.
(Show me any files occurring here which are not also occurring there).

Each instance of duplication is assigned a unique "duplicate instance" number
which is shown next to all files which are part of that "duplicate instance".

I thought about an automatic "delete duplicates" feature but didn't implement
it as I am organizing a lot of data, much is duplicated, it's final resting
place may not be one of the original locations and I want control over how the
final archive is organized.

Dave



-- 
--
Personal site: http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com
--

RE: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers

[Tom Gardner via cctalk]

Paul

Thanks, I had found this ad a while ago but thought it was ¼-inch.  Upon 
careful reading all the notes I found, "Errors per roll based on recording 7 
tracks on rolls ½" x 2500'. "

It looks like 3M may have called their computer tapes "Instrumentation" tape 
until the late 60s

Tom


-Original Message-
From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net] 
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 5:15 PM
To: Chuck Guzis; cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers



> On Jun 25, 2020, at 5:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 6/25/20 1:55 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote:
>> I'm trying to figure out what were the earliest Type numbers for 3M 
>>  -inch reel-to-reel computer tape
>> 
>> As best I can find, 3M began marketing a Type 777 computer tape about 1967.  
>> The Type 700 appears to be somewhat later.  But 3M sold computer tape 
>> directly to at least government customers (e.g. NSA, Social Security) in the 
>> 1950s.  The also notably OEMed tape to IBM who rebranded it under an IBM 
>> label until the late 1960s at which point with the help of Sony IBM began 
>> manufacturing its own computer tape.
>> 
>> Anyone have any idea of the Type number for 3M computer tapes earlier than 
>> Type 777?
>> 
>> There might be a place for some of these older Types at the CHM if anyone 
>> knows of any still in existence.
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>> PS:  There is a lot of information on 3M audio tape Type numbers as 
>> at http://www.aes.org/aeshc/docs/3mtape/aorprod-cust.pdf but computer 
>> tape seems to be an orphan
> I probably do--but I'm going to have to look through my logs.  Old 3M 
> tape is terrible for binder that sticks to everything.  Before 
> processing the stuff, I have to lubricate it.

Except for DECtape, of course.  That's 3M 340 or 341, the spec (from Nov 1966) 
is here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/dectape/3M_DECtape_Spec_Nov66.pdf

paul

Re: Early 3M Computer Tape Type Numbers

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 26, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Tom Gardner  wrote:
> 
> Paul
> 
> Thanks, I had found this ad a while ago but thought it was ¼-inch.  Upon 
> careful reading all the notes I found, "Errors per roll based on recording 7 
> tracks on rolls ½" x 2500'. "
> 
> It looks like 3M may have called their computer tapes "Instrumentation" tape 
> until the late 60s
> 
> Tom

"Instrumentation tape" sounds like a reference to instrumentation recorders, 
which were devices used to record N channels of analog data.  Typically this 
was done by FM-modulating that data for the actual recording process.  I've 
seen references to heads for such machines in widths from 1/4 inch to 2 inches 
depending on the number of channels needed.  I believe instrumentation tape was 
usually supplied on reels that look like professional audio tape reels -- metal 
flanged reels with hubs somewhat larger than a standard computer tape hub, with 
3 small notches.

Some early computers used tape like that for data recording; for example, the 
Electrologica X1 used 1/2 inch instrumentation tape reels, recording data at 
400 DPI (NRZI I think) in 10 (!) tracks.  Those were vaguely like DECtape -- 
random access rewritable blocks -- but with variable rather than fixed length 
blocks. 

Recovering data from such reels is an interesting problem today.

paul

RE: IDE Hard Drive Question

[W2HX via cctalk]

Thank you EVERYONE. Yes I confirmed that the red disc is a heater and the 
little device on the side is a temp sensor. All is good.

I will send a new email out with some new questions but wanted to tie off this 
discussion with thanks to all

Eugene


-Original Message-
From: cctalk  On Behalf Of dwight via cctalk
Sent: Friday, June 26, 2020 9:26 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: IDE Hard Drive Question

I'd measure the temperature sensor. It is most likely a typical thermistor but 
may be an RTD. Most RTD's are 100 ohm but there are some platinum on ceramic 
that are 1K ohms. Check it both directions with an ohm meter. It might be a 
solid state semiconductor type device. If a resistive device, it can likely be 
replaced by a resistor. If it is 10K thermistor or whatever just replace it 
with a fixed resistor.
Put it in the fridge for a few minutes to see if it is a negative or positive 
temperature coefficient. Once you know that it should be easy to use a value of 
resistor that would tell it that is was at a happy 20c.
You can likely leave the heater leads open.
The temperature sensor is the small black thing. I doubt it is a thermal switch 
but it might be. It is most likely to be around specific resistances of 10 
ohms, 100, 1K or 10K.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of jim stephens via 
cctalk 
Sent: Thursday, June 25, 2020 11:59 PM
To: cct...@classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: IDE Hard Drive Question



On 6/25/2020 11:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote:
> On 6/25/20 4:12 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote:
>> On 06/25/2020 05:29 PM, W2HX via cctech wrote:
>>> Does ANYONE have any idea what these 4 wires are connected to and why?
>>> And anyone give any odds about whether these 4 wires will prevent 
>>> this IDE-SD converter from working?
>>>
>>>
>> Temperature sensor and heater.  Undoubtedly for start-up in extreme 
>> cold conditions.
> Certainly looks like that to me also.  Sits right atop the spindle motor.
>
> --Chuck
>
The drive spec I found for the Conner cfs540a (this drive) shows an operating 
range of 5c to 55c.

The top of the range is useful for mil operations, but the 5c spec would be bad 
if you ran the drive.

Full military just a casual google says is -55c, and extended industrial is 
-40c on the bottom.  We did -40 specs for some of our projects, but nothing 
mechanical. The are at -40c to 60c for nonoperating, so would be close to the 
low range if they could heat the spindle, and let the drive heat itself up.

One issue might be that the sensor will heat up this dongle and allow the thing 
to run, but there may be a provision to spin the drive before it is expected to 
run.  A heat up or warmup feature might be performed besides what Jon suggested 
with the heater / sensor.

I suspect this thing has to heat up and be at temp before something in the bios 
or otherwise allows the drive to run.

The OP might look around and see if there are any of the heater strips around 
as well, to allow heating in the drive box as needed.

I may have one of these systems with some extra drives, and the good news is 
they guy I bought them from if mine are the same or of similar spec, is that he 
was putting drives in the boxes from random drive buys and they were easy to 
run.  He didn't recall the spindle dongle on his drive pods though.

I'm waiting to hear for sure if the fellow I bought mine from remembers the 
manufacturer.  The system and an auxiliary box of similar size with more pods 
came in a deal I couldn't pass up.  My box has got a 486 motherboard and 
functional 10baseT card running in it.  I plan to use one of the pods to do one 
of these as solid state to save runtime on the physical disks.


spec I used at:
ftp://ftp.seagate.com/techsuppt/seagate_utils/allconnr.pdf

Re: On: raising the semantic level of a program

[Stan Sieler via cctalk]

A friend kindly searched and found an interesting paper from 1973,

Programming by semantic refinement
 JB Morris - ACM SIGPLAN
Notices, 1973 - dl.acm.org.
https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/390014.808298

While an interesting paper, it's going the opposite direction (essentially,
going from an English language description down to a final programming
language).

But, using the L1 (highest level language), L2, ..., Ln (lowest level
language) concept, I can phrase my concept better ... so ...

Most programmers write at, say, the level of L3.
They might write something like:

   mem [foo].head = something

My "raising the semantic level" would be:

#define HEAD(x).  mem [x].head
   ...
HEAD (foo) = something

With a fair set of macros like that (HEAD, TAIL, etc), the program is now
effectively written in a "new" language, L2 (a higher level language than
L1).

Being written in L2, the resulting code is more readable to everyone,
partially because they aren't continually seeing the implementation of how
".head" / "mem" work/interact.

In effect, the programmer has added a feature (linked list handling,
perhaps) to L3 ... for that particular program, seemingly extending/raising
the level of the language.

It's that concept that I thought I saw sometime in the early 1970s :)

thanks,

Stan