Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Brad H]

Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: "Ian S. King"  
Date: 2016-11-29  7:19 PM  (GMT-08:00) 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"  
Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff 

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:17 PM, Brad H  wrote:

>
>
> That sounds interesting.  I imagine they'd be worth even more than an 8/E?
>
>
> Keep in mind that the 8/I is a fairly substantial investment in space and
weight.  Also, if you want to add something, it's not as easy as plugging a
card into a backplane.  The 8/I requires wirewrap work.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

>There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon >could go to China."

I'm curious.. what do people do with these things?  I've seen videos of some in 
large racks being used to play music, etc.  The rack ones seem like a a pretty 
substantial investment in space for something that doesnt (or does it?) have 
much practical use today.

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:03:22AM -0800, Brad H wrote:
>
> I'm curious.. what do people do with these things?  I've seen videos 
> of some in large racks being used to play music, etc.  The rack ones 
> seem like a a pretty substantial investment in space for something 
> that doesnt (or does it?) have much practical use today.

Are you sure you are on the right mailing list?

Anyway, here is someone controling his christmas lights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1MDYYvw0cY

Cheers,
Pontus.

Re: Homebrew QBus designs - was Re: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables

[allison]

On 11/29/16 1:24 PM, Charles Dickman wrote:

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Toby Thain  wrote:

On 2016-11-29 12:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Peter Coghlan

 > Can anyone suggest an existing, simple QBUS device that I could
study
 > the documentation of to figure out what a basic QBUS device needs to
 > have and to give me some ideas on how to implement one?

Depends. Do you want to be able to do interrupts? Do you want to be able
to
do DMA? Each is a significant increment in complexity.

Later DEC QBUS devices may not be the best things to look at, since they
tend
to use special DEC QBUS control chips (I'm _not_ talking about bus
transceiver chips here) which are of course no longer available.

The DEC Chipkit documentation has the internal schematics for the
standard DEC interface chips and is very much worth a read.

The major advantage of using chipkit parts is space.  If you build on a 
quad wide board
then its fairly easy to do DMA, bus arbitration, interrupt chain, and 
interrupt vectors

as its all documented in the various Qbus PDP-11 books.

About the only thing I've done is simple parallel interfaces as any 
other function
was available built.  Though one of these days a CF  "disk" board with 
boot rom

would be handy.  that would make a 11/23, dlv11j, memory and self contained
disk card a nice 4 board system in a BA11-VA box.

Allison

RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Brad H]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus
Pihlgren
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:10 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:03:22AM -0800, Brad H wrote:
>
> I'm curious.. what do people do with these things?  I've seen videos 
> of some in large racks being used to play music, etc.  The rack ones 
> seem like a a pretty substantial investment in space for something 
> that doesnt (or does it?) have much practical use today.

Are you sure you are on the right mailing list?

Anyway, here is someone controling his christmas lights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1MDYYvw0cY

> Cheers,
>Pontus.

Haha.  I don't know if I'd call using all that iron to run Christmas lights
'practical', though it is very cool.  I'm just trying to get out of the home
computer collector mindset.  We buy machines that can do all sorts of
things, especially games with graphics.  And when we're done we can simply
move them aside or tuck them in a closet.  A PDP with racks and all that,
not exactly portable. :)  So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested
and how much they actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year.

RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Fred Cisin]

I'm curious.. what do people do with these things?  I've seen videos
of some in large racks being used to play music, etc.  The rack ones
seem like a a pretty substantial investment in space for something
that doesnt (or does it?) have much practical use today.

Are you sure you are on the right mailing list?
Anyway, here is someone controling his christmas lights:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1MDYYvw0cY


On Wed, 30 Nov 2016, Brad H wrote:

Haha.  I don't know if I'd call using all that iron to run Christmas lights
'practical', though it is very cool.


Have you ever seen a Christmas lights system that was any more "practical" 
than that?



How do we define "hobby"?

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Brad H

> So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested and how much they
> actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year.

Well, I have to get all mine running first... ;-) Seriously, though, I'm
looking at several years of work to get them all running. (And there are also
various peripherals to do, like tape drives, etc.)

And then there's the project Dave B and I have to creat new blinkenlitz
panels (not to mention SD-card based mass storage to replace those cranky old
disk drives for every-day running, the original purpose before the
blinkenkraze hit us :-) for the PDP-11's...

Seriously, though, like all hobbies, it's primarily to amuse me, not to
create anything useful. And it's _very_ successful at that.

Noel

RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Brad H]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel
Chiappa
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:08 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Cc: j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu
Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

> From: Brad H

> So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested and how much they
> actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year.

Well, I have to get all mine running first... ;-) Seriously, though, I'm
looking at several years of work to get them all running. (And there are
also various peripherals to do, like tape drives, etc.)

And then there's the project Dave B and I have to creat new blinkenlitz
panels (not to mention SD-card based mass storage to replace those cranky
old disk >drives for every-day running, the original purpose before the
blinkenkraze hit us :-) for the PDP-11's...

>Seriously, though, like all hobbies, it's primarily to amuse me, not to
create anything useful. And it's _very_ successful at that.

>   Noel

True enough.  I enjoy the repair and build aspect of the hobby.  When I got
a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it operating was
like going on an exploration of ancient ruins.  Seeing it come to life was
amazing.  But I don't find a lot of use for it day to day.  Likewise with my
TVT project -- the experience of building it is fantastic, but not sure I'd
have much for it to do once done.  Even my old Commodore only gets sporadic
use, and only because it has so much of my old games library.

That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in pieces over time might be my
way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to rebuild one.
It'd be fun to try and piece one back together.  But yeah, I'm trying to
think of what I would do with it afterwards. :)  

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Al Kossow]

On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote:
> 
> 
> When I got
> a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it operating was
> like going on an exploration of ancient ruins.

Were you born in the 20th century?

Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern.

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Al Kossow]

On 11/30/16 9:07 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> Seriously, though, like all hobbies, it's primarily to amuse me, not to
> create anything useful.

And, like an old car, it's nice to have something around you can understand
down to the gate or transistor level. You haven't been able to do that with
a computer designed in the last 25 years or more.

Because of that, they aren't going to be any ASICs in them, which make 'em
BIG. The are also going to be full of cables and connectors, and all sorts of
other things that corrode and get flakey, which doesn't happen in the same
scale as more integrated computers.

But as a device you'd, say, want to do serious development on, or expect to
run without a crash for weeks or months, not so much so.

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[allison]

On 11/30/16 11:48 AM, Brad H wrote:



I'm curious.. what do people do with these things?  I've seen videos
of some in large racks being used to play music, etc.  The rack ones
seem like a a pretty substantial investment in space for something
that doesnt (or does it?) have much practical use today.

Define practical use?

Most still can or do produce useful work.  After all programming in C or 
other language
on a PDP-11 or PC is about all the same things.  One difference is the 
PDP-11 is really
running unix.  IF anything its no different than using an arduino to 
blink a light.



What I do:
Use them to run old software that still does useful work.

Let me correct that

Use them to run well tested and debugged old software that still does 
useful work.


Amuse myself, enjoy the hardware I can fully understand down to the gate 
level.
Marvel that unlike every PC I've had that crapped after a few years 
these old machines

just keep doing their thing.

The above is significant as most of the machine I have were obtained 
when they were still
current or relevant and they were fully functional.  So maintenance has 
been minimal to none.

There are a few that I built myself back in the mid to late 70s as well.


Allison

RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Brad H]

I was born in '75 and my first experiences with computing were my Dad's
early Commodore stuff.  I missed the whole hobbyist era.  To me, DG stuff is
seriously antique.  When I got my Mark-8 boards they felt a little like Inca
treasure to me.  It's all relative.

It's not that I'm unaware of pre-75 computing, especially big mainframes,
etc.  But given how viciously much deeper pocketed collectors compete for
that stuff, and shipping, and space.. really... that stuff will likely
always be a curiosity for me rather than something to actually collect and
experience.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:20 AM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff



On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote:
> 
> 
> When I got
> a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it 
> operating was like going on an exploration of ancient ruins.

Were you born in the 20th century?

Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern.

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 08:48:07AM -0800, Brad H wrote:
> 
> Haha.  I don't know if I'd call using all that iron to run Christmas lights
> 'practical', though it is very cool.  I'm just trying to get out of the home
> computer collector mindset.  We buy machines that can do all sorts of
> things, especially games with graphics.  And when we're done we can simply
> move them aside or tuck them in a closet.  A PDP with racks and all that,
> not exactly portable. :)  So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested
> and how much they actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year.
> 
> 

For me it is really about the learning experience. And boy is there much to 
learn. It's very interesting to see what is different and was is similar 
between various operating systems and architectures (and decades).

Learning the history makes you appreciate what you have and understand why 
some things are the way they are. Deaign decisions made 30-40 years ago 
that affect your every day life.

I've dedicated my garage to the hobby. It's a mere 20 square meter so I can 
only fit about ten racks or so.

/P

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Fred Cisin]

Howzbout:
line the frame of the doorway and the raingutters with rows of lights, 
with some of them grouped into rows of 8, 12, 16, 18, 24, 32, 48, 64, etc.


Put touch sensitive nailheads at various places, including alongside some 
of the rows of lights.

Wire the touch sensitive nailheads to relays.

Maybe some programming so entering appropriate codes controls porch light, 
garage door, etc.


Can any of your machines handle a second blinkenlights console?
(consisting of the entire front of your house?)

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Al Kossow]

On 11/30/16 9:45 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

> For me it is really about the learning experience. And boy is there much to 
> learn. It's very interesting to see what is different and was is similar 
> between various operating systems and architectures (and decades).
> 
> Learning the history makes you appreciate what you have and understand why 
> some things are the way they are. Deaign decisions made 30-40 years ago 
> that affect your every day life.

And thanks to the web, the primary sources are getting spread internationally.
It isn't something that was even thought about being taught in school at any 
deep level
until VERY recently.

What you're learnin' here ain't gettin' taught in school.

RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Sam O'nella]

Argument goes both ways. Does anyone really do practical things with any home 
computer? 
On the vcf forums I enjoyed two folks who eventually got their two PDP models 
running chess and had them play eachother.  I'd like to see a rematch or maybe 
some new vintage competitors approach :-)
If they can run holiday lights they could also probably use it for x10? home 
automation if one considers that practical.
 Original message From: Brad H 
So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep 
interestedand how much they actually used the machine over the course of, say, 
a year.

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[jim stephens]

On 11/30/2016 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:


On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote:


When I got
a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it operating was
like going on an exploration of ancient ruins.

Were you born in the 20th century?

Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern.

I was ecstatic to get a Nova 3, but it was released when I thought the 
Nova 800's I used were actually getting to be old technology. Still very 
glad to finally have a full Data General system.  Since it replaced a 
PDP 11/34 on deck, I'm glad to have a system that doesn't make me wonder 
if I'll be disabled everytime i move or lift it as well.


thanks
Jim

Looking for Philips P2000C P-Systems discs

[Rik Bos]

Hi,

 

I just acquired a Philips P2000C and I'm looking for a copy of the p-systems
disc(s) to run UCSD Pascal on it.

If someone has a copy of those I would be very happy ;)

 

-Rik

 

 

Re: Looking for Philips P2000C P-Systems discs

[Adrian Stoness]

pic?

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Rik Bos  wrote:

> Hi,
>
>
>
> I just acquired a Philips P2000C and I'm looking for a copy of the
> p-systems
> disc(s) to run UCSD Pascal on it.
>
> If someone has a copy of those I would be very happy ;)
>
>
>
> -Rik
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Mouse]

> Argument goes both ways.  Does anyone really do practical things with any ho$

Depends on how you define "practical" and "home computer".

My home network includes a SPARCstation-20, which is my main head (I'm
typing this message using it to handle keyboard and screen).  I don't
think there's any question that the SS20 is on-topic, but is it a "home
computer"?  I think of it and treat it that way, but it was never aimed
at that market by its maker and it differs in some drastic and
fundamental ways from most machines that were.

As for practical, well, it's the HCI in front of almost everything I do
at home, including work-from-home stuff

And I have another SS20 with a qec in it, which I recently used to
regain some semblance of connectivity when my house DSL decided to die
on me (it took multiple days for it to get fixed, for a variety of
reasons).  It sat on my house network with one of the qe ports
connected to a friend who had mass-market connectivity; I set up an
instance of my cloud VPN on it and it did its job well, passing packets
between my house network and my machines on the outside.  That
certainly counts as practical to me.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love

[Michael Newton]

You were correct, I was looking for the -12v in the wrong place. I did find
-12v on the anode of CR2. So all voltages are correct at the test points.

So the LCD shows nothing and the device does not seem to respond to keypad
presses.

The other symptom is that I can hear some feeble and irregular clicky
noises from the paper drive motor. So it isn't purely just that the display
failed.

thanks
M.


On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:

> (Getting back to this after a couple days..)
>
> The board photos help although not detailed enough for certainty in
> tracing.
> I see the power supply test points on the photos and on the diagram 12-14
> (page 12-28) of the manual.
>
> Something to confirm: the -12V label is ambiguous in it's position on the
> board, do you know for sure you measured the right spot for -12V?
> It looks like it would be the nice solder button to the left of the minus
> sign but from what I can discern it seems more likely to be the anode lead
> of the diode (CR2), right above the "2" in the "-12V" label.
> The diagram 12-14 indicates the test point as the cathode (banded lead) of
> CR2, this is likely incorrect, if CR2 is the -12V rectifier the DC output
> would be the anode end. It looks likes the draftsman just copied the
> pattern for the +15V diode.
>
> As you suggest, detailed assistance from a distance may be difficult, but
> you might check the above and see where things stand.
> I'm not all that far away (Victoria area) but far enough to nonetheless be
> awkward for transport or trip.
>
>
> On 2016-Nov-22, at 1:16 PM, Michael Newton wrote:
> > I appreciate the guidance so far, thanks very much.
> >
> > I found another power supply/motor driver board ("analog board") of the
> same part number, hooked it up to the plotter and tested it. The -12v test
> point on the new board read zero, and the other voltages were present just
> like the original board.
> >
> > I don't suppose that proves anything, but at least now I have 2 power
> supplies.
> >
> > I don't have an electronics background other than hobby-level tinkering.
> I don't know how likely it is I'll be able to diagnose and fix this solely
> on remote guidance, and in any case that seems like too much for me to ask.
> >
> > If there is someone within driving distance of Seattle who could get
> this thing working I will pay them what their time and effort is worth (I'm
> trying to avoid shipping this monster or buying anyone plane tickets).
> >
> > thanks
> > M.
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Michael Newton <
> michael.new...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Brent Hilpert 
> wrote:
> > On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote:
> >
> > > That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero.
> >
> > From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V.
> >
> > Yes -12v, sorry
> >
> > > Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which
> ones
> > > might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics.
> >
> > Looking at:
> > 7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf
> > from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be
> truncated.
> > The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of
> course the power supply schematic is missing.
> > (Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd on
> the hpmuseum pages.)
> >
> > It's linked from http://www.hpmuseum.net/collection_document.php -
> search the page for "DraftMaster"
> >
> > The document does appear to be missing the full schematic of the analog
> board. I haven't been able to find them anywhere.
> >
> > There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30),
> which shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control
> loop) secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the
> likely problem region. There will be more components involved than shown
> there, but the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter
> cap and possibly a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12,
> or even a zener
> > regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry
> between there and the actual -12 output of the supply.
> >
> > - identify the -12V componentry in the power supply.
> > - if there is a 3-terminal -12V regulator check for input to the
> reg vs output.
> > - confirm that it's not the load side of the -12 causing the
> problem.
> > - pic(s) of the power supply board might help us identify the
> area or get a better idea of what we're dealing with.
> >
> >
> > I took photos: https://goo.gl/photos/tRWV3ATTqx2R3eDz6
>
>

Re: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love

[David Collins]

If you have an oscilloscope or logic analyser see if you have a clock signal at 
the main CPU.  If you do, see if your EPROMs are being accessed. If not you may 
have a clock issue, a bad CPU or the CPU reset stuck low. 

David Collins

(Sent from out of office)

> On 1 Dec. 2016, at 12:48 pm, Michael Newton  wrote:
> 
> You were correct, I was looking for the -12v in the wrong place. I did find
> -12v on the anode of CR2. So all voltages are correct at the test points.
> 
> So the LCD shows nothing and the device does not seem to respond to keypad
> presses.
> 
> The other symptom is that I can hear some feeble and irregular clicky
> noises from the paper drive motor. So it isn't purely just that the display
> failed.
> 
> thanks
> M.
> 
> 
>> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:
>> 
>> (Getting back to this after a couple days..)
>> 
>> The board photos help although not detailed enough for certainty in
>> tracing.
>> I see the power supply test points on the photos and on the diagram 12-14
>> (page 12-28) of the manual.
>> 
>> Something to confirm: the -12V label is ambiguous in it's position on the
>> board, do you know for sure you measured the right spot for -12V?
>> It looks like it would be the nice solder button to the left of the minus
>> sign but from what I can discern it seems more likely to be the anode lead
>> of the diode (CR2), right above the "2" in the "-12V" label.
>> The diagram 12-14 indicates the test point as the cathode (banded lead) of
>> CR2, this is likely incorrect, if CR2 is the -12V rectifier the DC output
>> would be the anode end. It looks likes the draftsman just copied the
>> pattern for the +15V diode.
>> 
>> As you suggest, detailed assistance from a distance may be difficult, but
>> you might check the above and see where things stand.
>> I'm not all that far away (Victoria area) but far enough to nonetheless be
>> awkward for transport or trip.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 2016-Nov-22, at 1:16 PM, Michael Newton wrote:
>>> I appreciate the guidance so far, thanks very much.
>>> 
>>> I found another power supply/motor driver board ("analog board") of the
>> same part number, hooked it up to the plotter and tested it. The -12v test
>> point on the new board read zero, and the other voltages were present just
>> like the original board.
>>> 
>>> I don't suppose that proves anything, but at least now I have 2 power
>> supplies.
>>> 
>>> I don't have an electronics background other than hobby-level tinkering.
>> I don't know how likely it is I'll be able to diagnose and fix this solely
>> on remote guidance, and in any case that seems like too much for me to ask.
>>> 
>>> If there is someone within driving distance of Seattle who could get
>> this thing working I will pay them what their time and effort is worth (I'm
>> trying to avoid shipping this monster or buying anyone plane tickets).
>>> 
>>> thanks
>>> M.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Michael Newton <
>> michael.new...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Brent Hilpert 
>> wrote:
 On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote:
 
 That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero.
>>> 
>>> From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V.
>>> 
>>> Yes -12v, sorry
>>> 
 Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which
>> ones
 might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics.
>>> 
>>> Looking at:
>>>7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf
>>> from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be
>> truncated.
>>> The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of
>> course the power supply schematic is missing.
>>> (Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd on
>> the hpmuseum pages.)
>>> 
>>> It's linked from http://www.hpmuseum.net/collection_document.php -
>> search the page for "DraftMaster"
>>> 
>>> The document does appear to be missing the full schematic of the analog
>> board. I haven't been able to find them anywhere.
>>> 
>>> There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30),
>> which shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control
>> loop) secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the
>> likely problem region. There will be more components involved than shown
>> there, but the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter
>> cap and possibly a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12,
>> or even a zener
>>> regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry
>> between there and the actual -12 output of the supply.
>>> 
>>>- identify the -12V componentry in the power supply.
>>>- if there is a 3-terminal -12V regulator check for input to the
>> reg vs output.
>>>- confirm that it's not the load side of the -12 causing the
>> problem.
>>>- pic(s) of the power supply board might help us identify the

PDP-8e power switch key?

[W2HX]

Hi folks,

What are people doing for keys for the 8e? Is there a standard key used for all 
of them? Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number of my 
key lock?  I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get info.

Thanks
Eugene W2HX

Re: PDP-8e power switch key?

[Ethan Dicks]

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:35 PM, W2HX  wrote:
> Hi folks,
>
> What are people doing for keys for the 8e?

I've been carrying a standard DEC key on my keyring since 1982...

> Is there a standard key used for all of them?

Nearly all (a custom key was an option - I have only ever seen *1* DEC
machine that does not use either an ACE XX2247 or a pinless key, out
of many dozens).

> Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number of my key 
> lock?  I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get info.

There should be _lots_ of info on DEC ACE XX2247 keys including pin
depths and even 3D models.

-ethan

Re: PDP-8e power switch key?

[jim stephens]

On 11/30/2016 8:35 PM, W2HX wrote:

Hi folks,

What are people doing for keys for the 8e? Is there a standard key used for all 
of them? Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number of my 
key lock?  I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get info.

Thanks
Eugene W2HX
Since I'm going to get some keys made, I looked up Jay's posting of 
keys, three of which we verified from his formulas.


Here is the posting from March 2016

Here are the formulas he posted then.  I thought there were more 
discussions about making an archival page, but I did not go on and look 
up whether it was made up or not.


As Ethan said, somewhere there is also a 3d print STD file I believe, 
but the locksmith numbers are better.


 key post contents 

FYI - the key codes I measured previously for Data General and HP have been
cut, tested, and verified. Amazingly, my measurements were correct. So to
summarize:

XX2247
Code: 5173757
Use: DEC PDP-8 (all varieties), PDP-11 machines that do not use an ACE blank
(11/24, 11/44)

XX2065
Code: 1353757
Use: Data General Nova (800,1200,1220,2,3) Eclipse (S/130,S/200)

XX2946
Code: 4557457
Use: Hewlett-Packard 2100A/2100S

NOTE: The codes above are listed 7-1, and all key cuts are center offset.

Still unconfirmed or need more information:

Cromemco: XX4306
Code: (Mike Stein was going to measure his cuts)
Use: Cromemco Systems CS-1/CS-3/CS-100

J

Re: PDP-8e power switch key?

[Mike Stein]

- Original Message - 
From: "jim stephens" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 12:17 AM
Subject: Re: PDP-8e power switch key?


> 
> 
> On 11/30/2016 8:35 PM, W2HX wrote:
>> Hi folks,
>>
>> What are people doing for keys for the 8e? Is there a standard key used for 
>> all of them? Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number 
>> of my key lock?  I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get 
>> info.
>>
>> Thanks
>> Eugene W2HX
> Since I'm going to get some keys made, I looked up Jay's posting of 
> keys, three of which we verified from his formulas.
> 
> Here is the posting from March 2016
> 
> Here are the formulas he posted then.  I thought there were more 
> discussions about making an archival page, but I did not go on and look 
> up whether it was made up or not.
> 
> As Ethan said, somewhere there is also a 3d print STD file I believe, 
> but the locksmith numbers are better.
> 
>  key post contents 
> 
> FYI - the key codes I measured previously for Data General and HP have been
> cut, tested, and verified. Amazingly, my measurements were correct. So to
> summarize:
> 
> XX2247
> Code: 5173757
> Use: DEC PDP-8 (all varieties), PDP-11 machines that do not use an ACE blank
> (11/24, 11/44)
> 
> XX2065
> Code: 1353757
> Use: Data General Nova (800,1200,1220,2,3) Eclipse (S/130,S/200)
> 
> XX2946
> Code: 4557457
> Use: Hewlett-Packard 2100A/2100S
> 
> NOTE: The codes above are listed 7-1, and all key cuts are center offset.
> 
> Still unconfirmed or need more information:
> 
> Cromemco: XX4306
> Code: (Mike Stein was going to measure his cuts)
> Use: Cromemco Systems CS-1/CS-3/CS-100
> 
> J
> 
===

As a matter of fact I did measure the Cromemco cuts and post the numbers, but 
there may have been some ambiguity regarding clockwise vs. anti-clockwise; 
if/when I get a chance I'll measure them again.

m

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[allison]

On 11/30/16 11:48 AM, Brad H wrote:


Haha.  I don't know if I'd call using all that iron to run Christmas lights
'practical', though it is very cool.  I'm just trying to get out of the home
computer collector mindset.  We buy machines that can do all sorts of
things, especially games with graphics.  And when we're done we can simply
move them aside or tuck them in a closet.  A PDP with racks and all that,
not exactly portable. :)  So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested
and how much they actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year.




Well using them to do work and also programming keeps it going and having
enough hardware to have one different one for each week of the year doesn't
hurt either.

I also do things like start with a Z80 system, a machine I know well and 
then
say CP/M-2.2 OS and proceed to try and write a improved version that can 
actually

do the one thing everyone wanted then, hierarchical directories, in a larger
disk space.  When you consider things like ZRdos were improvements and 
solved
the 8mb limit but not the flat directory issue in a compatible way. Will 
it change
the world, no, but its an interesting exercise.  To do so means 
understanding

at the most fundamental levels OS and file system operation.

As to PDP-11s or any PDP-mumble not all are rack size!  The small 11 I 
have is
in a BA11VA (13x12x4 inches!) that's smaller than a lot of current PCs 
save for

the terminal.

Never forget everything old is new again.


Allison

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[allison]

On 11/30/16 2:32 PM, jim stephens wrote:



On 11/30/2016 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:


On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote:


When I got
a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it 
operating was

like going on an exploration of ancient ruins.

Were you born in the 20th century?

Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern.

I was ecstatic to get a Nova 3, but it was released when I thought the 
Nova 800's I used were actually getting to be old technology. Still 
very glad to finally have a full Data General system.  Since it 
replaced a PDP 11/34 on deck, I'm glad to have a system that doesn't 
make me wonder if I'll be disabled everytime i move or lift it as well.


thanks
Jim

There is DG aka Data General and then there is Digital Group Inc.  They 
are very different!



Allison

RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Rich Alderson]

From: Brad H
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:16 AM

> That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in pieces over time might be my
> way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to rebuild one.
> It'd be fun to try and piece one back together.  But yeah, I'm trying to
> think of what I would do with it afterwards. :)  

So what kind of system are you interested in?  There is no such thing as a
generic "PDP".  Before giving up the naming convention, DEC produced 7
different architectures all named "PDP-n" for small integers n (and designed 2
that were never built by DEC):

PDP-1:  18 bits, 6 instruction + 12 address (System Modules)
PDP-2:  24 bits (design only) (System Modules)
PDP-3:  36 bits (design only) (System Modules)
PDP-4:  18 bits, 5 instruction + 13 address (System Modules)
PDP-5:  12 bits (System Modules)
PDP-6:  36 bits, 9 instruction, 9 AC+index+indirect, 18 address (mainframe)
PDP-7:  18 bits (PDP-4 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-8:  12 bits (PDP-5 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-9:  18 bits (PDP-7 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-10: 36 bits (PDP-6 upwards compatible) (mainframe)
PDP-11: 16 bits (FlipChips)
PDP-12: 12 bits (PDP-8 + LINC compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-14: 12 bits (NOT compatible with the PDP-8 family) (FlipChips)
PDP-15: 18 bits (PDP-9 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-16: register-transfer module machine, with 8-, 12- or 16-bit memory as
needed for particular application design.

Later members of each family were designated by suffixes (e.g. 8/i, 8/e, 8/A
and 11/40, 11/70, etc.) or newer names (DECsystem-10, DECSYSTEM-20).  The VAX
was the first new architecture from DEC not to have a PDP-n designation at all.

Rich

P. S. For most of us, I think, "DG" = Data General, not Digital Group.


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[Brad H]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich
Alderson
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:16 PM
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'

Subject: RE: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

From: Brad H
Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:16 AM

> That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in pieces over time might 
> be my way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to
rebuild one.
> It'd be fun to try and piece one back together.  But yeah, I'm trying 
> to think of what I would do with it afterwards. :)

So what kind of system are you interested in?  There is no such thing as a
generic "PDP".  Before giving up the naming convention, DEC produced 7
different architectures all named "PDP-n" for small integers n (and designed
2 that were never built by DEC):

PDP-1:  18 bits, 6 instruction + 12 address (System Modules)
PDP-2:  24 bits (design only) (System Modules)
PDP-3:  36 bits (design only) (System Modules)
PDP-4:  18 bits, 5 instruction + 13 address (System Modules)
PDP-5:  12 bits (System Modules)
PDP-6:  36 bits, 9 instruction, 9 AC+index+indirect, 18 address (mainframe)
PDP-7:  18 bits (PDP-4 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-8:  12 bits (PDP-5 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-9:  18 bits (PDP-7 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-10: 36 bits (PDP-6 upwards compatible) (mainframe)
PDP-11: 16 bits (FlipChips)
PDP-12: 12 bits (PDP-8 + LINC compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-14: 12 bits (NOT compatible with the PDP-8 family) (FlipChips)
PDP-15: 18 bits (PDP-9 upwards compatible) (FlipChips)
PDP-16: register-transfer module machine, with 8-, 12- or 16-bit memory as
needed for particular application design.

Later members of each family were designated by suffixes (e.g. 8/i, 8/e, 8/A
and 11/40, 11/70, etc.) or newer names (DECsystem-10, DECSYSTEM-20).  The
VAX was the first new architecture from DEC not to have a PDP-n designation
at all.

Rich

P. S. For most of us, I think, "DG" = Data General, not Digital Group.


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

>mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org

>http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Can I use 'dg'? :)  I think Digital Group preferred to be uncapitalized if I
remember correctly.

Regarding PDP -- I'm just sort of dipping my toes in here.  I'd like
something that looks similar to an 8/E -- front panel toggle switches,
preferably from before 1975.  But it's all a function of price.. if I can
find a later 11 that isn't $600+, that might be a place to start.  I'm open
to suggestions.  I've always been curious about DEC -- the computer shop we
once frequented in Vancouver always had stacks of DEC stuff among its used
computer inventory.  VAX stations mostly.  But I never got around to buying
anything.  Was too busy collecting classic Macs.

manual for Microtec META29M meta-assembler

[Eric Smith]

Does anyone have a manual for the Microtec META29M meta-assembler?  This
was generally used to assemble microcode for microprogrammed systems,
including bit-slice systems. It was apparently compatible with AMD's
AMDASM, but added additional features.

Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff

[jim stephens]

On 11/30/2016 11:36 AM, allison wrote:

On 11/30/16 2:32 PM, jim stephens wrote:



On 11/30/2016 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote:


On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote:


When I got
a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it 
operating was

like going on an exploration of ancient ruins.

Were you born in the 20th century?

Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern.

I was ecstatic to get a Nova 3, but it was released when I thought 
the Nova 800's I used were actually getting to be old technology. 
Still very glad to finally have a full Data General system.  Since it 
replaced a PDP 11/34 on deck, I'm glad to have a system that doesn't 
make me wonder if I'll be disabled everytime i move or lift it as well.


thanks
Jim

There is DG aka Data General and then there is Digital Group Inc. They 
are very different!


Very true, but didn't honestly think of that in context of the thread, 
nor have I ever had any Digital Group stuff.  And does any Digital Group 
cause any injuries requiring orthopedic medical attention when you are 
lifting it?


thanks
jim


Allison

Re: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love

[Michael Newton]

If I power it up with the cover off, i can hear that several of the motors
are making unhealthy noises and not moving (although the pen carousel moves
very slightly before giving up and just howling). The paper drive motor and
also the little motor for the paper feed/takeup spindle are making the
weird noise and not turning.

Seems like the motors are being commanded to do the startup routine but are
acting weird. From what I remember of the brief period when this device
worked, when it's first powered up, it spins the pen carousel and checks
for pens, and also rapidly rolls the paper in and out a bit.

M.






On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 5:48 PM, Michael Newton 
wrote:

> You were correct, I was looking for the -12v in the wrong place. I did
> find -12v on the anode of CR2. So all voltages are correct at the test
> points.
>
> So the LCD shows nothing and the device does not seem to respond to keypad
> presses.
>
> The other symptom is that I can hear some feeble and irregular clicky
> noises from the paper drive motor. So it isn't purely just that the display
> failed.
>
> thanks
> M.
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:
>
>> (Getting back to this after a couple days..)
>>
>> The board photos help although not detailed enough for certainty in
>> tracing.
>> I see the power supply test points on the photos and on the diagram 12-14
>> (page 12-28) of the manual.
>>
>> Something to confirm: the -12V label is ambiguous in it's position on the
>> board, do you know for sure you measured the right spot for -12V?
>> It looks like it would be the nice solder button to the left of the minus
>> sign but from what I can discern it seems more likely to be the anode lead
>> of the diode (CR2), right above the "2" in the "-12V" label.
>> The diagram 12-14 indicates the test point as the cathode (banded lead)
>> of CR2, this is likely incorrect, if CR2 is the -12V rectifier the DC
>> output would be the anode end. It looks likes the draftsman just copied the
>> pattern for the +15V diode.
>>
>> As you suggest, detailed assistance from a distance may be difficult, but
>> you might check the above and see where things stand.
>> I'm not all that far away (Victoria area) but far enough to nonetheless
>> be awkward for transport or trip.
>>
>>
>> On 2016-Nov-22, at 1:16 PM, Michael Newton wrote:
>> > I appreciate the guidance so far, thanks very much.
>> >
>> > I found another power supply/motor driver board ("analog board") of the
>> same part number, hooked it up to the plotter and tested it. The -12v test
>> point on the new board read zero, and the other voltages were present just
>> like the original board.
>> >
>> > I don't suppose that proves anything, but at least now I have 2 power
>> supplies.
>> >
>> > I don't have an electronics background other than hobby-level
>> tinkering. I don't know how likely it is I'll be able to diagnose and fix
>> this solely on remote guidance, and in any case that seems like too much
>> for me to ask.
>> >
>> > If there is someone within driving distance of Seattle who could get
>> this thing working I will pay them what their time and effort is worth (I'm
>> trying to avoid shipping this monster or buying anyone plane tickets).
>> >
>> > thanks
>> > M.
>> >
>> >
>> > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Michael Newton <
>> michael.new...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Brent Hilpert 
>> wrote:
>> > On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote:
>> >
>> > > That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero.
>> >
>> > From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V.
>> >
>> > Yes -12v, sorry
>> >
>> > > Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which
>> ones
>> > > might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics.
>> >
>> > Looking at:
>> > 7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf
>> > from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be
>> truncated.
>> > The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of
>> course the power supply schematic is missing.
>> > (Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd
>> on the hpmuseum pages.)
>> >
>> > It's linked from http://www.hpmuseum.net/collection_document.php -
>> search the page for "DraftMaster"
>> >
>> > The document does appear to be missing the full schematic of the analog
>> board. I haven't been able to find them anywhere.
>> >
>> > There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30),
>> which shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control
>> loop) secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the
>> likely problem region. There will be more components involved than shown
>> there, but the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter
>> cap and possibly a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12,
>> or even a zener
>> > regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry
>> b