date:20151212



Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 10, 2015, at 2:55 AM, "drlegendre ."  wrote:
> 
> Hey Mike,
> 
> Thanks, but I don't know if I need the codes, they are probably posted
> online? In any case, I found the game in my archive, so I attached it for
> you..
> 
> It's in a zip file, containing one or two .D64 disk images. It's probably
> cracked, so you shouldn't need any kind of passwords, I'd think? I tried
> it, and it boots up on my emulator..
> 
> -Bill
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 1:01 AM, Mike  wrote:
>> 
>> I have a mint copy with all the passwords if you need a copy of the
>> passwords let me know I am going to have to type them in because they
>> are printed on DARK brown paper with black text you cant scan it I tried
>> so let me know if any of ya need them...
>> 
>> Also it surprisingly has pretty good graphics for the first version of
>> Castlevaina or I think it is...
Thanks Bill. Have a blessed day...
>>

Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Liam Proven

On 12 December 2015 at 03:00, Rich Alderson
 wrote:
> From: Liam Proven
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 10:54 AM
>
>> On 10 December 2015 at 20:42, Rich Alderson  
>> wrote:
>
>>> From: Liam Proven
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:33 AM
>
 *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So?
>
>>> Piker.
>
>> Um. I don't know what that means. In UK English, "pikey" is a highly
>> offensive pejorative term for a person of Gypsy or Romany origin, or
>> these days, more generically, a person of very lower-class origins:
>> "trailer trash". I am guessing you didn't mean that. :-)
>
>> So, what, it means I'm very young? I'm fine with that, given I'm nearing
>> 50. :-D
>
> Two cultures separated by a common language, and all that.

Indeed.

> According to the dictionaries of American English which I just consulted, it 
> is
> refers to small-time gamblers and others who make limited cash outlays.  Hmm.

Oh! OK. New one on me, and I thought I was reasonable at US idioms. I
have probably misheard or misparsed it before now, thought it
strangely out-of-context and moved on.

> In nearly 60 years of reading and watching movies and television program(me)s,
> the internalized definition I have for it is any person who does something in 
> a
> small way.  Usually used jokingly.  Thus, that your collected e-mail is two
> decades' less duration than mine leads to such a description.

That was my general impression, but I read it as age rather than
quantity. Close enough for government work.

> Certainly no offense intended.

Oh, none taken!

>>> On the subject line topic, I read this list via an Exchange/Outlook setup,
>> [...]
>>>  Simple.  Quick.
>
>> This must be some strange new usage of the words "simple" and "quick"
>> that I wasn't previously aware of.
>
> Well, given that I first learned EMACS (to give the TECO spelling) when you
> were all of 8 years old, the method I described *is* simple and quick, for me.

First editor. Hmm. I guess the Commodore full-screen BASIC code editor
on the PET series doesn't really count. But before I used it in any
anger, in Comp Sci class, I got a ZX Spectrum after playing with my
uncle's ZX 81. But the Spectrum barely had an editor, either, so I
mostly used Beta BASIC which was slightly (slightly) richer. (A used
Spectrum 48K cost my parents £80. No idea of exchange rates in
1982-1983: at a total guess ITRO US$ 140-150? That was the most
computer we could afford.)

First actual discrete editor which could load and save files was
probably EDT on a terminal on the University VAX in about 1985. I was
never a master but I could use it. Does that have enough early-editor
kudos? Probably not. :-(

> Isn't this the Old Geezers club? :-)

Well, quite! :-D

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Commodore 64?

If I would have known!!!

WOW I would have just read more posts before I posted my first post look at 
this mess... There is no reason for people to be rude or disrespectful to new 
people like myself. I have never joined a place like this I know now that it 
has been said 1 times to scroll down and put my text there all I 
wanted to do was talk about my new Commodore 64's.  Can we do that?  I make a 
post about creepy pastas and all I got was made fun of? Do yall not want new 
people to join? I think I can learn a lot from here that's all I want to do! 
There are many Computer geniuses on here that I can learn a lot from that's 
what I'm interested in and I like Creepypasta's and I collect Honda ATC 
3wheelers. But can we get back on track with the Commodore 64?

Sent from my iPhone

Re: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!!



Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 10, 2015, at 7:20 PM, Jason T  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Dec 10, 2015 at 6:13 PM, drlegendre .  wrote:
>> But yes, there are methods (even from the classic era) to load arbitrary
>> code into the 2600 using a proprietary cartridge and a cassette tape
>> machine. In essence, the special cart has a small bootstrap ROM that loads
>> the software from the cassette into an internal (to the cart) RAM space
>> which is then banked in as if it were a real 2600 cart ROM.
>> 
>> Of course, the software is still limited to the hardware resources of the
>> 2600.. the cart just emulates a plug-in ROM.
>> 
>> So did this post properly? If not, I don't know how else to do it!
> 
> Yep!
> 
> As for 2600 cassette schemes,
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starpath_Supercharger was the one I'm
> aware of.



Man I bet a cart like that would be hard to find and vey spendy!!!

Re: CREEPYPASTA



Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 10, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:

>> From: Pontus Pihlgren
> 
>> Once, I was told by a friend that he had dumpstered not one but two
>> PDP-12s!!
> 
>> It still gives me the chills.
> 
> I can top that. Someone told me they were going to start a thread about
> top-posting on a list supposedly about vintage computers. I'm still
> shaking.
> 
>Noel

Have any of you read "PENPAL" one of the best!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIhLDKrePPY

Re: Commodore 64?

2015-12-12 Thread william degnan

On Dec 12, 2015 6:41 AM, "Mike"  wrote:
>
> If I would have known!!!
>
> WOW I would have just read more posts before I posted my first post look
at this mess... There is no reason for people to be rude or disrespectful
to new people like myself. I have never joined a place like this I know now
that it has been said 1 times to scroll down and put my text
there all I wanted to do was talk about my new Commodore 64's.  Can we do
that?  I make a post about creepy pastas and all I got was made fun of? Do
yall not want new people to join? I think I can learn a lot from here
that's all I want to do! There are many Computer geniuses on here that I
can learn a lot from that's what I'm interested in and I like Creepypasta's
and I collect Honda ATC 3wheelers. But can we get back on track with the
Commodore 64?
>
> Sent from my iPhone

Mike
Where are you located?  Yes this list is quirky.  Welcome anyway!  I
suggest vintage-computer.com forum, they talk about C64s a lot there.

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net

Re: Commodore 64?



NonStopTalk Team

> On Dec 12, 2015, at 6:57 AM, william degnan  wrote:
> 
>> On Dec 12, 2015 6:41 AM, "Mike"  wrote:
>> 
>> If I would have known!!!
>> 
>> WOW I would have just read more posts before I posted my first post look
> at this mess... There is no reason for people to be rude or disrespectful
> to new people like myself. I have never joined a place like this I know now
> that it has been said 1 times to scroll down and put my text
> there all I wanted to do was talk about my new Commodore 64's.  Can we do
> that?  I make a post about creepy pastas and all I got was made fun of? Do
> yall not want new people to join? I think I can learn a lot from here
> that's all I want to do! There are many Computer geniuses on here that I
> can learn a lot from that's what I'm interested in and I like Creepypasta's
> and I collect Honda ATC 3wheelers. But can we get back on track with the
> Commodore 64?
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
> 
> Mike
> Where are you located?  Yes this list is quirky.  Welcome anyway!  I
> suggest vintage-computer.com forum, they talk about C64s a lot there.
> 
> Bill Degnan
> twitter: billdeg
> vintagecomputer.net



I go there but the wealth of knowledge that is in here is invaluable to me I 
have high respect for all the old schoolers in here! And just would like to 
learn as much as I can! :) they can be rude it's ok I'll just kill them with 
kindness.

Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING



> On Dec 11, 2015, at 8:00 PM, Rich Alderson  
> wrote:
> 
> From: Liam Proven
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 10:54 AM
> 
>> On 10 December 2015 at 20:42, Rich Alderson  
>> wrote:
> 
>>> From: Liam Proven
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:33 AM
> 
 *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So?
> 
>>> Piker.
> 
>> Um. I don't know what that means. In UK English, "pikey" is a highly
>> offensive pejorative term for a person of Gypsy or Romany origin, or
>> these days, more generically, a person of very lower-class origins:
>> "trailer trash". I am guessing you didn't mean that. :-)
> 
>> So, what, it means I'm very young? I'm fine with that, given I'm nearing
>> 50. :-D
> 
> Two cultures separated by a common language, and all that.
> 
> According to the dictionaries of American English which I just consulted, it 
> is
> refers to small-time gamblers and others who make limited cash outlays.  Hmm.
> 
> In nearly 60 years of reading and watching movies and television program(me)s,
> the internalized definition I have for it is any person who does something in 
> a
> small way.  Usually used jokingly.  Thus, that your collected e-mail is two
> decades' less duration than mine leads to such a description.
> 
> Certainly no offense intended.
> 
>>> On the subject line topic, I read this list via an Exchange/Outlook setup,
>> [...]
>>> Simple.  Quick.
> 
>> This must be some strange new usage of the words "simple" and "quick"
>> that I wasn't previously aware of.
> 
> Well, given that I first learned EMACS (to give the TECO spelling) when you
> were all of 8 years old, the method I described *is* simple and quick, for me.
> Isn't this the Old Geezers club? :-)
> 
>Rich
> 
> 
> Rich Alderson
> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
> Living Computer Museum
> 2245 1st Avenue S
> Seattle, WA 98134
> 
> mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org
> 
> http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/


Thank you for the Museum link Rich.

Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING





> On Dec 11, 2015, at 8:00 PM, Rich Alderson  
> wrote:
> 
> From: Liam Proven
> Sent: Friday, December 11, 2015 10:54 AM
> 
>> On 10 December 2015 at 20:42, Rich Alderson  
>> wrote:
> 
>>> From: Liam Proven
>>> Sent: Thursday, December 10, 2015 8:33 AM
> 
 *I* never delete my emails. I have a trail back to 1994. So?
> 
>>> Piker.
> 
>> Um. I don't know what that means. In UK English, "pikey" is a highly
>> offensive pejorative term for a person of Gypsy or Romany origin, or
>> these days, more generically, a person of very lower-class origins:
>> "trailer trash". I am guessing you didn't mean that. :-)
> 
>> So, what, it means I'm very young? I'm fine with that, given I'm nearing
>> 50. :-D
> 
> Two cultures separated by a common language, and all that.
> 
> According to the dictionaries of American English which I just consulted, it 
> is
> refers to small-time gamblers and others who make limited cash outlays.  Hmm.
> 
> In nearly 60 years of reading and watching movies and television program(me)s,
> the internalized definition I have for it is any person who does something in 
> a
> small way.  Usually used jokingly.  Thus, that your collected e-mail is two
> decades' less duration than mine leads to such a description.
> 
> Certainly no offense intended.
> 
>>> On the subject line topic, I read this list via an Exchange/Outlook setup,
>> [...]
>>> Simple.  Quick.
> 
>> This must be some strange new usage of the words "simple" and "quick"
>> that I wasn't previously aware of.
> 
> Well, given that I first learned EMACS (to give the TECO spelling) when you
> were all of 8 years old, the method I described *is* simple and quick, for me.
> Isn't this the Old Geezers club? :-)
> 
>Rich
> 
> 
> Rich Alderson
> Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
> Living Computer Museum
> 2245 1st Avenue S
> Seattle, WA 98134
> 
> mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org
> 
> http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/


The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the world 
did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about the tape, 
cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them but what kind 
of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ?

Re: TOP POSTING (was: RE: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!!



> On Dec 11, 2015, at 7:12 PM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:
> 
> On 2015-Dec-11, at 4:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> 
 It's a total waste of time having to re-read all the unnecessary crap
 many times just to get to a one sentence reply.
>> 
>> IFF people were to be considerate and delete/trim/remove all of the 
>> irrelevant parts of the quoted material, then the placement of the reply 
>> would not matter.  We are arguing over which is the best way to work around 
>> refusal to trim by lazy inconsiderate people.
> 
> On this list many replies involve responses to multiple points in the prior 
> material. Even if people trim the prior material, top-posting will still be 
> non-sensical and confusing.
> For discussions of the nature for which this list is intended, bottom-posting 
> - after appropriately trimmed/selected prior point(s) - is the clearest and 
> most (or only) consistent method.
> 
> Top posting may be workable for simple, private, casual conversations. That's 
> not this list.
>   


Now that I have been here a few days now I agree 100% I hope my sig is gone now 
I removed it lol sorry about that.

Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Nico de Jong

- Original Message - 
From: "Mike" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 

Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 2:22 PM
Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING

> The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the 
> world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about 
> the tape, > cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in 
> them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ?=

When I started in 1969, displays certainly were not commonplace, but we got 
the jobs done anyhow.
All our (administrative) jobs started as punched cards (later data-entry on 
IBM 3740), were read via an IBM 2540 card reader / puncher, handled on an 
IBM 360/40, with output on e.g. the venerable 1403 printer. Data was kept on 
magnetic tapes and 2311 harddisks, with each a whopping 7.25 MB capacity.
So, when you had to look at something, you looked at fanfold paper, with 
holes on both sides.
Other applications could put holes in cards
/Nico

--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
SPAMfighter has removed 1222 of my spam emails to date.
Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len

Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan 
http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread tulsamike3...@gmail.com





> On Dec 12, 2015, at 7:49 AM, Nico de Jong  wrote:
> 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> From: "Mike" 
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 
> 
> Sent: Saturday, December 12, 2015 2:22 PM
> Subject: Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING
> 
>> The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the 
>> world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about 
>> the tape, > cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in 
>> them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ?=
> 
> When I started in 1969, displays certainly were not commonplace, but we got 
> the jobs done anyhow.
> All our (administrative) jobs started as punched cards (later data-entry on 
> IBM 3740), were read via an IBM 2540 card reader / puncher, handled on an 
> IBM 360/40, with output on e.g. the venerable 1403 printer. Data was kept on 
> magnetic tapes and 2311 harddisks, with each a whopping 7.25 MB capacity.
> So, when you had to look at something, you looked at fanfold paper, with 
> holes on both sides.
> Other applications could put holes in cards
> /Nico
> 
> --
> I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
> SPAMfighter has removed 1222 of my spam emails to date.
> Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
> 
> Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan 
> http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen





> 
So did you have to learn how to read the punch hole cards also or did the punch 
hole cards go into the computer and than printed out the data on the fan fold 
paper also was it in code or just plane English?

Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Gene Buckle


On 12/11/2015 3:50 PM, Dale H. Cook wrote:

At 01:47 PM 12/11/2015, Dave G4UGM wrote


I have searched high and low for a decent e-mail client for Windows.


I still use Eudora Pro.

I'm using the current version of Thunderbird[*] right now and it not 
only quotes properly, but I've got it configured such that even if the 
inbound message is HTML it converts it to plain text when I hit reply. ;)


The calendar function is built in, but because I have no use for it I'm 
not sure what connectivity options it offers.



g.

[*] A power outage on Wednesday killed the power supply in my main mail 
exchanger that I read email on via Alpine.  F*ck Dell and their 
proprietary power supplies and connectors!

Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question

2015-12-12 Thread Jim Brain


http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952?

The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me.  Does 
anyone know what it is?


Jim

--
Jim Brain
br...@jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com

Re: [cctalk] Head-less computers (Was: TOP POSTING


[2^6 lines of irrelevance omitted]

On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, Mike wrote:
The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in 
the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know 
about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches 
in them but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? 
? ?

graphics!

Instead of a screen, you looked at "paper" (a flat, thin, slightly 
flexible product made form ground-up dead trees).
There was a campaign called "The Paperless Office" set up by the 
papermills to sell more paper, by claiming that xerox machines, and using
fax machines instead of post office, would "save paper" (actually intended 
to "save paper industry")


Sometimes, it was non-simultaneously interactive, using a device called a 
TTY.  You typed in a command, and it did it, and then it typed its answer.

PI
SYNTAX ERROR
PRINT PI
0
PRINT 2 + 2
4
or

DOWN
YOU DON'T FIT THROUGH A TWO INCH SLIT
and
N
YOU ARE IN A MAZE OF TWISTY LITTLE PASSAGES ALL ALIKE

Sometimes, it was printed reports.  A thick fan-fold pile of continuous 
form paper that listed all of your SYNTAX ERRORs
Sometimes, it was special forms (also fanfold continuous), such as your 
paycheck.


Sometimes, it was a deck of punched cards.  (They are "PUNCHED cards", not 
"PUNCH cards", once there are some holes in 'em - "PUNCH card" can only 
mean blank cards to feed the PUNCH with).  Those went into drawer in a 
room full of special file cabinets, or into the input of another machine, 
such as a different machine such as "accounting machine" (which was used 
as a dedicated printer), or the card reader of another computer.  Inter 
computer communication was handled by a "gofer" carrying, or pushing a 
cart full of, decks of punch cards.  Each deck of cards, if less than 2000 
in a box, was inadequately secured with rubber bands and had diagonal 
lines made with magic markers, to recognize the rearrangements after the 
deck or box got dropped.  That process was later upgraded to 
"sneaker-net".


Sometimes, it was a reel of tape.  Used in similar ways to punched cards, 
except that the storage room was called a "tape library", and other than a 
tape number, and maybe owner's name, there weren't any diagonal lines 
across them.  There were "tape hangers" that wrapped around the outside of 
the reel, and small plastic "rubber" rings near the hub called "write 
rings".  The tape drives were the iconic image that filmmakers used 
instead of computers, which "don't look like a computer".


Sometimes, it was a big picture!  Take the deck of cards or tape to 
another machine that was dedicated to operating a "PLODDER".  It would be 
a large table, or a lorge roller (and since late 1960s sometimes a machine 
that wrote to 16mm or 35mm film!).  The plodder moved "pids" (rapidograph 
like pens) around, responding to commands summarized as N, S, E, W, UP, 
DOWN (oft subverted into manufacturer proprietary commands).  Large 
libraries of subroutines would convert into those primitives from commands 
such as LINE, CIRCLE, GRID, PLOT xxx V yyy.


Sometimes, the owner of some small machines, or the paid operator of some 
larger machines, would have a "FRONT PANEL", that was full of 
blinkenlights.  When the operator wasn't feeding the printers (trying to 
start a new box of paper without turning off the printer), they could 
stare at those lights.  Occasionally, an operator might start 
screaming or giggling uncontrollably when the computer told them a 
good joke, such as program counter repeating itself.


Sometimes, they controlled dedicated equipment (such as looms, milling 
machines, spaceships, etc.)


RARELY, there was voice output.  A quarter of a century ago, I had a 
friend who used a VOTRAX.  She had a laptop with a big gaping hole where a 
screen had once been. The first email that she sent me (she believed 
that the proper quoting was "NO QUOTES!"), said:

WINDOWS SUCKS
MOSAIC SUCKS
CAN I BORROW AN AXE?

Like her, if you know what you are doing, you do not need a screen.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question

2015-12-12 Thread Glen Slick

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Jim Brain  wrote:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952?
>
> The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me.  Does anyone
> know what it is?
>
> Jim

The board says Centram Systems, Inc, Camp Hill, Pa.

There is a marketing blurb in the August 15, 1983 issue of
Computerworld. Don't know if it is for that exact board.

Long ugly link:
https://books.google.com/books?id=soGti0kvtgwC&pg=RA1-PA71&lpg=RA1-PA71&dq=centram-systems+inc+kaypro&source=bl&ots=6Vnr0qZn3W&sig=otazIdpkt4Y5Oyrp9jjKKrv_dq4&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjHtaP34tbJAhUL9mMKHWnaDYQQ6AEIIDAB#v=onepage&q=centram-systems%20inc%20kaypro

Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING


On 12/12/2015 07:22 AM, Mike wrote:
The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here 
is what in the world did the computers without a screen to 
look at do? Now I know about the tape, cassette tape's and 
even the paper with the hole punches in them but what kind 
of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ? 
Well, in the 1960's lots of companies ran their payroll, 
billing and general ledger on IBM 1401 and similar 
machines.  IBM sold 12000 of them, and then there were 
additional partially compatible machines in the same line 
(1410, 1460).  Many 1401's were used in the beginning 
entirely from cards, or cards and tape, with no disk.


Certainly, some people used them for math problems, as 
well.  I know our local phone company had a 1401 in their 
planning department, and they used it to compile statistical 
info telling them what equipment they needed to plan in the 
future.


Our University had a 1401 for accounting, and a 7094 for the 
rest of the University's needs.  Then, in 1969 they upgraded 
the 7094 to a 360/50.  None of these machines had 
"screens".  All programming was done on punch cards, most of 
the data was prepared on punch cards, although some came on 
tape.  Then, if you were a user with privileges, you could 
get some tiny amount of disk space to hold data for a while.
Sometime later, maybe around 1971 they got some IBM 2741 
terminals which were Selectric typewriters connected to an 
interface.  Later they got some IBM 2260's, which were 
Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an interface 
box in the machine room.  Very primitive, but very 
interactive, great for quick program editing and submission.


Jon

Re: 2.9.1 BSD on 11/34 + sc21-bm + fujitsu m2333k

2015-12-12 Thread Josh Dersch

On 12/11/15 9:33 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

On 12/11/15 5:50 PM, Jacob Ritorto wrote:

Exciting stuff for a Friday night, right? Here's a visual aid in case
you're needing further inspiration:
https://www.instagram.com/p/_K-zHhHvLn78Qu5ijWqMf-HBem1LKMLaEdI1c0/ The
M2333K is the smaller one on the left with the green and yellow
lights on.
I'm booting from rl0, which contains the tuhs 2.9.1 rl02 image I
wrote with

vtserver earlier.

I want to use my nice, roomy smd disk so I can pull in all the
sources and
recompile stuff and I've managed to get this *so* close to working
but I'm

getting

xp0a: hard error bn cs2=1100 er1=0

on every single block when I try to mkfs /dev/xp0a 4800

This disk was working fine years ago via MSCP attached to the 11/73
(before

I lost the Micro/11 power supply).

Anyway, I referred to
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/emulex/SC2151001-CC_SC21tech_Jan87.pdf

to set the emulation on the Emulex card for two rm03s and they're
showing
up in xxdp's zrmlb1 formatter, though they won't format there,
screensful

of errors.

I think I set the m2333k to 32 sectors, per this manual:
http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/antonio/chrisq/B03P-4760-0101A_-_M2331,M2333_Micro-Disk_Drives_OEM_Manual.pdf

Because XXDP is reputed to be really strict, I figured that was
normal and

then tried the Emulex on-board formatting procedure against both xp0 and
xp4 and they formatted perfectly without error. Guess the Emulex
on-board

stuff doesn't bother verifying much?

So I think that maybe I've misunderstood the hard sectoring / sector
sizing

thing. Does anyone remember the gist of it and would you be able to
describe? Do you see any other mistakes?

thx
jake

1.) The SC21's format does *no* verification at all. It lays down an
initial format and that's it. It doesn't create the bad-block list
(more on that later).
2.) Section 6 of the manual lists a set of modifications (patches)
that need to be made to XXDP diagnostics in order for them to work
properly with the SC21. This includes the ZRMAC0 formatter form
RM02/RM03. You'll likely need to apply them; hopefully you can find
the required versions to hack...
3.) In addition to setting the sector size/sector count on the
Fujitsu, did you also configure the SC21 for the appropriate drive?
(see Appendix A) I don't see an M2333 listed there specifically, but
there might be something with a similar (or identical) geometry you
can use instead.

After you have that step done, you will need to have a 2.9.1BSD kernel
that's been compiled with bad block support, otherwise BSD will simply
ignore bad sectors and assume the whole disk is good -- which will
cause bad things to happen as soon as something is written over a bad
sector.

(Apologies if any of the above is already old-hat; just trying to
cover all the bases I know of...)

- Josh

I'll also add that in order to create a filesystem on the new disk using
mkfs, you'll need to have run the 2.9BSD 'disklabel' program on it to
create the disk label (partition map). You can do this via vtserver,
it's covered in the manual. Obviously this can only happen after you've
managed to format/exercise the disk :).

- Josh

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Robert Rissell

Mike,

One of the key manners of getting information processed was batch jobs run
by the computer staff.You never see the computer at all.

Individual programs (usually one at a time - using the whole machine for
one program) were loaded, pointed at input files, run and then unloaded
with the
output file or a printout as the end result.

Some of the batch jobs did such tasks as:

Sorting the input file
Adding account information to a ledger in a bank
Calculating what is going to happen in a simulated physics problem
Calculating trajectories of artillery shells
Calculating Averages, Means and Standard Deviations of Statistical data
Generating form letters based on an input list of names and addresses and
printing them out
etc.

The batch job consisted of a Batch Number for accounting, the keyword-coded
header card(s) to tell the computer what to do with the following cards
such as Compile, Link, Execute then Output for a Fortran source.Any
options are read in from the input file or set in the source file.   This
was often
done by preparing stacks of cards with the input or control options and
putting them in with the source deck.   Then there was a card indicating
the end
of the source file.Following the source you would find the cards
listing the input for the program, such as a list of accounts and amounts
to be added
together or sorted.  Last you would find a specially punched control card
to indicate the end of the batch job card deck.

The total amount of CPU time taken to accomplish the batch job would be
tracked and printed out for accounting at a rate per CPU second.   This rate
could vary based on priority or time of day.   So it was in your best
interest to write efficient programs.Your source and input deck was
returned to
you in a cardboard tray together with any resultant punched cards, paper
tape or printouts (usually on fan-fold paper).   If there was an error
during the run,
any error messages are returned to you for resolution.   Error messages
were usually in English, but your output could just be a stream of numbers,
letters
or sometimes a printed out graph or picture, line by line.

What the computer did as a job was hopefully something that was not easier
done by hand.

Robyn

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING


On 12/12/2015 08:18 AM, tulsamike3...@gmail.com wrote:


So did you have to learn how to read the punch hole cards also or did the punch 
hole cards go into the computer and than printed out the data on the fan fold 
paper also was it in code or just plane English?
You COULD read the holes, if you really HAD to.  Keypunches 
printed the alphanumeric form on the top edge of the cards.  
if you punched a deck of cards on the CPU's card punch, 
there was no printing.  If it was an "object deck" ie. 
binary code, you would never "interpret" the deck.  But, if 
it had something that might be human readable, there was a 
machine called an interpreter, and it would type the symbols 
on the top of the card for you.


Jon

Re: TOP POSTING


On 12/12/2015 09:07 AM, Gene Buckle wrote:



[*] A power outage on Wednesday killed the power supply in 
my main mail exchanger that I read email on via Alpine.  
F*ck Dell and their proprietary power supplies and 
connectors!




All my Dell Optiplex boxes (that's the commercial grade 
models) have standard power connectors.  All the Dell boxes 
do have proprietary shape/size power supplies, but in a 
pinch you could hang one outside the box.


Jon

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING


On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, tulsamike3...@gmail.com wrote:
So did you have to learn how to read the punch hole cards also or did 
the punch hole cards go into the computer and than printed out the data 
on the fan fold paper also was it in code or just plane English?


Yes.

If you dealt with the cards long enough, or consciously tried to, you 
learned the punch patterns.  They were not complicated.

or
you could make a printout
or
you could feed the cards through an INTERPRETER, which printed the card 
content on the card.  The usual INTERPRETER used a larger font, and only 
printed 60? of the columns.  If you had unusual needs for which columns to 
print, or wanted to rearrange, etc., then you could program it with a 
plug-board.  You kept some of those plug-boards around for specific tasks. 
For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER", 
just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-)
There was also a sb-model of the 029 punch series that was a 
"punch/interpreter".  It could take a card, or a deck thereof, and print 
the content of the card along the top.  It had a significant advantage 
over the INTERPRETER in that it printed 80 columns, aligned with the 
columns of punches in the card.


On "normal" cards (not round-hole, system3, film-window, etc.), there were 
80 columns (numbered 1-80), and 12 rows (X,Y,and 0 through 9).

[When I die, bury my remains face down, 9 edge first]
Text was encoded with a punch in Y, X, or 0 plus a punch in 1 through 9.
Special characters and punctuation were other combinations.  Lower case 
was generally not used.
Other punch combinations were possible, and occasionally used, such as raw 
binary codes.  Punching out all punches in a column or columns created a 
"lace card", which wasn't liked by the reader.
"/*" in the first two columns had special meaning for 360 JCL, which 
required some extra care when attempting C compilers.





on the fan fold paper also was it in code or just plane English?
Only in the aerospace industry would you find people who spoke in plane 
english.  Everybody else preferred it "plain".


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Display-less computing

2015-12-12 Thread William Donzelli

> Sometime later, maybe around 1971 they got some IBM 2741 terminals which
> were Selectric typewriters connected to an interface.  Later they got some
> IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an
> interface box in the machine room.  Very primitive, but very interactive,
> great for quick program editing and submission.

Were 2260s really Zenith products inside? I certainly could believe
it, judging from the tube lineup. Someday I would like to see one up
close and personal.

The 1800 actually did have a video option, and yes, you had to provide
your own cheap black and white TV.

--
Will

Re: Display-less computing

Until the advent of "personal" computers, a computer generally did not 
have a screen.  If you were doing stuff for which a creen would be useful, 
you used a "peripheral" device, called a "terminal".

Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Charles Anthony

>
>
> The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the
> world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about
> the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them
> but what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q07PhW5sCEk

A 30 minute film "1963 Timesharing: A Solution to Computer Bottlenecks"

-- Charles

Re: Best 200 buck I have ever spent!!! Deal of a lifetime!!!

2015-12-12 Thread Jules Richardson


On 12/10/2015 01:11 AM, Mike wrote:

WOW sounds like ya got a good haul hope ya did not have to pay to much!


No, I got a good deal, although (unsurprisingly) it just about all needs 
work. One C64 is healthy, the other one gives a black screen. The Vic 
printer is completely unresponsive, and the 1541 drive doesn't POST and 
sits there with both LEDs on and constantly spinning.


I'm not too worried about the dead C64 as I already had two working 
machines: one boxed with PSU, but with a missing keycap, and the other 
'loose' with no PSU and a battered case, but with a good keyboard. So I 
think the plan is to merge parts, giving me three good working systems with 
PSUs and boxes, and one 'scrap' system with no box or PSU, and a battered 
case and broken keyboard.


I'll probably be looking for a new home for one of the three working 
systems after that; I like to have a working example + working spare of 
anything whenever possible, but I really don't need three systems.


Fixing the faulty 1541 drive is on the to-do list today if I get time, and 
then I'll think about tackling the Vic printer (but I expect the ribbon's 
dried out and replacements are unobtainable anyway, so I'm not worried if 
there's some major snafu with the electronics/mechanism, it's more of a 
"hey, that looks cool" piece anyway)


Jules

Re: IDE knowledge anyone?

2015-12-12 Thread Chuck Guzis


On 12/11/2015 04:35 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote:


Western Digital Caviar 31600 it is.


I took a peek today and found that I've got a couple of AC31200 drives, 
but no 31600s.  Do you think that the 31200 is close enough to your drive?


--Chuck

Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Rob Doyle


On 12/12/2015 6:22 AM, Mike wrote:


The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what
in the world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I
know about the tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the
hole punches in them but what kind of applications were they use
for? Mathematics or? ? ?



I have close friend that related a story to me the other day.

In his younger days he worked for a military contractor that
manufactured inertial reference systems for military aircraft.

They used a bare naked PDP-11 (just lights and switches) as part of
final acceptance test. Over the years, he got quite adept and
manipulating the switches and reading the lights during the four hour test.

One day a government auditor noticed that he was performing the final
test impossibly faster than the 'standard' amount of time and concluded
that he was not testing the unit per the procedure and that the big
defense company was in violation of their government contract. To say
this was a *big* deal is an understatement.

When he was called to the plant manager's office, he offered to prove
that he was following the test procedure to the auditor and anyone else.

The first attempt to demonstrate the test procedure was a complete bust.
Every time he manipulated the switches or read the lights, the auditor
would interrupt him so that he could compare the front panel switches
and lights to the test procedure. He could not do the test with the
constant interruptions - he'd get lost and confused. Now he was getting
a little scared.

He finally convinced the auditor to video tape the final test procedure
so that he could perform it uninterrupted. He, the plant manager, and
the auditor reviewed the video tape - pausing the tape as necessary -
and concluded that he actually did perform the test procedure as required.

He mentioned that manipulating the switches was committed to muscle
memory and it was like playing the piano.

As a reward for his efficiency, the auditor attempted to reduce the
'standard' amount of time for the product - thus reducing the amount of
money that the government would pay the contractor for the service.
After all, if he could perform the test that fast - anybody could...

Rob Doyle

Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread simon


/dev/null again...

On 11-12-15 19:33, Liam Proven wrote:

On 10 December 2015 at 18:07, tony duell  wrote:

If your mail program doesn't let you scroll to the end of a message and
start typing then it is fundametnally broken. It may not be convenient, but
that is not my problem!



Strongly agree. Adrian, if your email client doesn't let you
bottom-quote properly, it's broken.

The only desktop client I've seen that is so completely broken is MS Outlook.



--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

Re: CREEPYPASTA

2015-12-12 Thread Ian Finder

Jay West- for the love of all that is vintage computing, please ban this
guy.

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 4:13 AM, Mike  wrote:

>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Dec 10, 2015, at 7:45 AM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
>
> >> From: Pontus Pihlgren
> >
> >> Once, I was told by a friend that he had dumpstered not one but two
> >> PDP-12s!!
> >
> >> It still gives me the chills.
> >
> > I can top that. Someone told me they were going to start a thread about
> > top-posting on a list supposedly about vintage computers. I'm still
> > shaking.
> >
> >Noel
>
> Have any of you read "PENPAL" one of the best!
>
> http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DIhLDKrePPY
>



-- 
   Ian Finder
   (206) 395-MIPS
   ian.fin...@gmail.com

Re: Commodore 64?

2015-12-12 Thread ethan

If I would have known!!! WOW I would have just read more posts before I 
posted my first post look at this mess... There is no reason for people 
to be rude or disrespectful to new people like myself. I have never 
joined a place like this I know now that it has been said 1 
times to scroll down and put my text there all I wanted to do was talk 
about my new Commodore 64's.  Can we do that?  I make a post about 
creepy pastas and all I got was made fun of? Do yall not want new people 
to join? I think I can learn a lot from here that's all I want to do! 
There are many Computer geniuses on here that I can learn a lot from 
that's what I'm interested in and I like Creepypasta's and I collect 
Honda ATC 3wheelers. But can we get back on track with the Commodore 64?


Much love for the plastic micros from the 80s, at least with me! Some 
people are into the larger DIGITAL Equipment Corp stuff (PDPs, Vaxes) and 
other large systems. I used to be big into Unix workstation hardware, 
including big ones so went up through lots of them until I hit the 
mountaintop with Cray stuff. It's so heavy and no permanant place for it 
so these days I prefer it when I can put 3 systems into a plastic tub.


I'm involved with a music and gaming festival (the music is mostly video 
game music) and we've spawned a computer museum as a come-back side 
project. This year I think there was about 32 to 34 systems out which 
include classic Macintosh stuff (Something personally I'm not a fan of 
outside of the case designs), a NeXT, some Atari ST, Atari 8 bit, Color 
Computer 2 or 3, Apple II, Apple IIGS, 8088 IBM PC, 80286, 80386, 80486. I 
think Mike had 2 of the later PCs (the 486es) on thinnet running Doom over 
IPX/SPX.


Next year the computer museum space is around 3000 square feet and I think 
they're going to bring more like 100 to 120 machines (not sure.) I've 
offered them my Octane, Indigo, NeXT, Sun Voyager, Atari Mega 2, Atari 
520ST (need a mouse), Atari TT030 (need a mouse), Amiga 500, (probably 
hold bcak Amiga 600 it's so small it makes me nervous), C64, Dolch PAC 
luggable PC w/ Gravis Ultrasound, and some other stuff. Gave away the 
Model 4 TRS-80 but it should be coming. They've got a lot of the plastic 
microcomputer stuff covered until you hit fringe stuff like Mattel 
Aquarius and import machines. I did meet locals that import Russian and 
other MSX clones but don't have solid enough contact information to get 
any of it (might need to run an inverter to generate 50hz power and PAL 
TVs for that stuff.)


Friends have all sorts of stuff, and some things might be coming like a 
X68000 (for the Castlevania fans :-) and MSX and other fun things.


Anyways, where was I. Oh yea. Much love for the Micros, but different 
people came up at different times. My only CPM box is a beautiful IMSAI 
8080 -- which I keep covered. Still building the S100 CF card.


Check out the C64 SD adapters or the XA1541 if you haven't.

--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Dave Woyciesjes


On 12/11/2015 05:57 PM, Dave Wade wrote:

, Dave G4UGM 

wrote:





However, I used to use and like Thunderbird and still do on Linux
and Mac.


Thunderbird is a PITA. In order to get buttons that let you go to the
next message you need several plug-ins...   


	Uh, no you don't. RIght-click n the toolbar, select Customize. Get the 
buttons you want.





--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
   Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

RE: Bye for now... was:

2015-12-12 Thread Rick Bensene

Simon Claessen wrote:
> 
> Another great day started with me deciding that thorwing away 70% of a list
> every day is not worthwhile any more. This list is acting like Whatsapp and
> Facebook more and more.
> 
> It seems that a lot of people are unable to keep on topic. Its a shame.
> It would be so handy if people could refrain from "biting the troll". I am 
> truly
> not interested in top, bottom posting, and other non classic computer blabla.
> 
It is sad that Simon has decided to leave the list.

I am so tempted to do the same thing as Simon...say goodbye to this list 
because of all of the worthless , off-topic cruft that is posted here, 
especially lately.  

However, I've been a member of this list for a long time, and I'm so hoping 
that perhaps by some miracle this current trend towards topics non-sequitur 
will abate.   One can hope.

-Rick Bensene

Bye for now... was:

2015-12-12 Thread simon


Hi all.

Another great day started with me deciding that thorwing away 70% of a 
list every day is not worthwhile any more. This list is acting like 
Whatsapp and Facebook more and more.


It seems that a lot of people are unable to keep on topic. Its a shame. 
It would be so handy if people could refrain from "biting the troll". I 
am truly not interested in top, bottom posting, and other non classic 
computer blabla.


Bye
--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Dave Woyciesjes


On 12/11/2015 05:58 PM, Dave Wade wrote:




-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of wulfman
Sent: 11 December 2015 19:26
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

Subject: Re: TOP POSTING

Thunderbird has calendars now.



Only with more plug-ins



You're not running current Thunderbird, are you?


--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
   Registered Linux user number 464583

"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.

Re: IDE knowledge anyone?

2015-12-12 Thread Oliver Lehmann



Chuck Guzis  wrote:


On 12/11/2015 04:35 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote:


Western Digital Caviar 31600 it is.


I took a peek today and found that I've got a couple of AC31200  
drives, but no 31600s.  Do you think that the 31200 is close enough  
to your drive?


Probably yes - has it a blue line in its label?
Mine:
http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212051.jpg
http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212105.jpg

I also have newer Caviars 26400 and 23200 which are working fine.

Re: Maximizing value selling a working 11/34

2015-12-12 Thread Ben Sinclair

I'm also interested if you have any information about what the system
was doing Noel!

Was it in use until just recently? It's always fun to hear about older
systems that are still being used for production work.

On Tue, Dec 8, 2015 at 8:09 AM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> So I know someone who has a working 11/34 (4 RLO2's and the 11/34 in an H960,
> running RSTS/E) they want to sell, and they want to know how to maximize the
> value - i.e. whether to sell it as a complete working system, or to part it
> out - and if the latter, how to break it up?
>
> (No discussion about the morality of parting it out, please; this is owned by
> a business, and they need the money to pay people's salaries.)
>
> So which direction would get the most money? My sense is that parting it to
> the maximal degree possible (e.g. sell each drive separately, sell the memory
> separately from the CPU, sell the feet separately from the H960, etc) is
> the way to get the most money, but I'm interested to hear what others think.
>
> Thanks for any insights!
>
> Noel



-- 
Ben Sinclair
b...@bensinclair.com

Re: IDE knowledge anyone?

2015-12-12 Thread Chuck Guzis


On 12/12/2015 12:23 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote:


http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212051.jpg
http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212105.jpg

I also have newer Caviars 26400 and 23200 which are working fine.




Nope--green line and the PCB doesn't look like yours.  I have an orange 
22500 and that, again, uses a different PCB.  Most of my other drives in 
this storage range are Maxtors and Seagates.


BTW, are you using the IDE interrupt to determine the transition between 
command and data phases?


--Chuck

Re: Display-less computing


On 12/12/2015 11:17 AM, William Donzelli wrote:

Sometime later, maybe around 1971 they got some IBM 2741 terminals which
were Selectric typewriters connected to an interface.  Later they got some
IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an
interface box in the machine room.  Very primitive, but very interactive,
great for quick program editing and submission.

Were 2260s really Zenith products inside? I certainly could believe
it, judging from the tube lineup. Someday I would like to see one up
close and personal.


Yes, they were hideous hacks of a cheap TV set.  The VHF 
tuner was still in there, as it was needed to complete the 
series filament chain.  They had 5 tubes in series, with 
26-volt filaments, running off 120 V AC.  I'm PRETTY sure 
the brand was Zenith, but this is from about a 43-year old 
memory of pulling the cover off one.  All it had was a 
keypunch-style keyboard and the TV, all the electronics were 
in the machine room.


Jon

Re: Display-less computing

2015-12-12 Thread Paul Koning


> On Dec 12, 2015, at 4:26 PM, Jon Elson  wrote:
> 
> On 12/12/2015 11:17 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
>>> Sometime later, maybe around 1971 they got some IBM 2741 terminals which
>>> were Selectric typewriters connected to an interface.  Later they got some
>>> IBM 2260's, which were Zenith 9" TV sets and a keyboard connected to an
>>> interface box in the machine room.  Very primitive, but very interactive,
>>> great for quick program editing and submission.
>> Were 2260s really Zenith products inside? I certainly could believe
>> it, judging from the tube lineup. Someday I would like to see one up
>> close and personal.
>> 
>> 
> Yes, they were hideous hacks of a cheap TV set.  The VHF tuner was still in 
> there, as it was needed to complete the series filament chain.  They had 5 
> tubes in series, with 26-volt filaments, running off 120 V AC.  I'm PRETTY 
> sure the brand was Zenith, but this is from about a 43-year old memory of 
> pulling the cover off one.  All it had was a keypunch-style keyboard and the 
> TV, all the electronics were in the machine room.

I thought 2260s had a green CRT.

paul

RE: Bye for now... was:

2015-12-12 Thread Doug Jackson

I've been a member of this list for many years.  Sometimes people are on topic. 
  Sometimes they are not. But the list remains a useful source of infirmation 
and trivia alike.

I understand where the  key is, and what its function is.  I have found 
that judicious use can increase my happyness level.  That way,   I can still 
get information that is interesting to me while reducing my frustration.

I also use modern access methods, so I'm unphased about posting styles.  I save 
the teletype paper for really important things like playing SPACWR...   this 
glass teletype thing may well take off some day. ..

At least this list is more civil than comp.lang.forth...  thats full of cranky 
people.

Just my $0.02.  Use  or  as you see fit.

Doug.

On 13 December 2015 6:22:16 am AEDT, Rick Bensene  wrote:
>Simon Claessen wrote:
>> 
>> Another great day started with me deciding that thorwing away 70% of
>a list
>> every day is not worthwhile any more. This list is acting like
>Whatsapp and
>> Facebook more and more.
>> 
>> It seems that a lot of people are unable to keep on topic. Its a
>shame.
>> It would be so handy if people could refrain from "biting the troll".
>I am truly
>> not interested in top, bottom posting, and other non classic computer
>blabla.
>> 
>It is sad that Simon has decided to leave the list.
>
>I am so tempted to do the same thing as Simon...say goodbye to this
>list because of all of the worthless , off-topic cruft that is posted
>here, especially lately.  
>
>However, I've been a member of this list for a long time, and I'm so
>hoping that perhaps by some miracle this current trend towards topics
>non-sequitur will abate.   One can hope.
>
>-Rick Bensene

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

RE: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Dave Wade

> >> Thunderbird has calendars now.
> >>
> >
> > Only with more plug-ins
> >
> 
>   You're not running current Thunderbird, are you?

I am, and I see that as from V38 (basically the current version) the
calendar add-on is bundled with Thunderbird BUT ITS STILL AN ADDON THAT HAS
TO BE SEPARATELY ENABLED and Configured.
I can't some much searching find any info on using Lightening either with
live.com or google calendars. Outlook syncs automatically with live.com
calendars, and it took 5 minutes of googling to get it to display my live
google calendar.

> 
> 
> --
> --- Dave Woyciesjes
> --- ICQ# 905818
> --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/
> --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
> Registered Linux user number 464583
> 
> "Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
> "The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
> - from some guy on the internet.

Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Tony

I am using Thunderbird 38.4.0 on a couple of PC's.  I use Google 
calendar for scheduling.

Tony Pflum


On 12/12/2015 3:08 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:

On 12/11/2015 05:58 PM, Dave Wade wrote:




-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of 
wulfman

Sent: 11 December 2015 19:26
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts

Subject: Re: TOP POSTING

Thunderbird has calendars now.



Only with more plug-ins



You're not running current Thunderbird, are you?

Re: IDE knowledge anyone?

2015-12-12 Thread Oliver Lehmann



Chuck Guzis  wrote:


On 12/12/2015 12:23 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote:


http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212051.jpg
http://files.pofo.de/20151212_212105.jpg

I also have newer Caviars 26400 and 23200 which are working fine.




Nope--green line and the PCB doesn't look like yours.  I have an  
orange 22500 and that, again, uses a different PCB.  Most of my  
other drives in this storage range are Maxtors and Seagates.


BTW, are you using the IDE interrupt to determine the transition  
between command and data phases?


No, I'm only polling the regular status register. The Interrupt pins
are not connected. My application is single threaded anyway so polling
is fine for me - I would wait anyhow until the interrupt occured.

I once tried to switch to the alternate status register once completly,
but under some circumstances I'm getting not the expected data out of
it.

Re: [cctalk] Re: TOP POSTING

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Mike wrote:
> The one question I do have for the older gentlemen on here is what in the 
> world did the computers without a screen to look at do? Now I know about the 
> tape, cassette tape's and even the paper with the hole punches in them but 
> what kind of applications were they use for? Mathematics or? ? ?

Mike, here's another piece of mailing list netiquette that I think has
been mentioned recently but only briefly: when you start a new topic,
please do so by sending a brand-new email to cctalk@classiccmp.org
instead of replying to an existing message. Your question about what
earlier computers were like was a good one that brought up some
interesting responses, but I fear those messages got ignored by people
because they were still shown as replies to this neverending top posting
thread (most of which anyone would be 100% justified in throwing in the
trash without reading).

Sending a new email to start threads not only gives you a good chance to
write a subject line that actually describes what you're saying, but it
causes decent mail clients to not link the message with earlier ones on
another topic. Different email readers do that in different ways -- some
just treat any messages with the same subject line as a thread, while
some (like mutt, which I use) are happy to ignore subject lines and just
go by the reference field in the emails' headers (a field which is often
hidden from view).

So, by all means, start new discussions. But make sure they're treated
as new by emailing cctalk@classiccmp.org directly instead of replying.

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
> you could feed the cards through an INTERPRETER, which printed the card
> content on the card.
[snip]
> For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER",
> just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-)

Are you using "interpreter" in two senses here, or just one? That is to
say, I'm not sure if you're saying the "COBOL interpreter" was just a
program that printed COBOL source on a punched card, or if you mean it
actually ran the program.

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Robert Rissell wrote:
> The batch job consisted of a Batch Number for accounting, the keyword-coded
> header card(s) to tell the computer what to do with the following cards
> such as Compile, Link, Execute then Output for a Fortran source.
[snip]
> Following the source you would find the cards
> listing the input for the program, such as a list of accounts and amounts
> to be added
> together or sorted.

So you could have the same batch job compile AND run the program? That
kind of surprises me. Must have saved a lot of time that way.

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING


you could feed the cards through an INTERPRETER, which printed the card
content on the card.

[snip]

For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER",
just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-)


On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote:

Are you using "interpreter" in two senses here, or just one? That is to
say, I'm not sure if you're saying the "COBOL interpreter" was just a
program that printed COBOL source on a punched card, or if you mean it
actually ran the program.


Yes, I was deliberately conflating two disparate meanings of the word. 
When a friend was discussing compilers V interpreters, I pointed to the 
plug-board, and said, "SEE! There IS a COBOL interpreter!"


The board was itself not a COBOL interpreter, nor even intended to be 
labelled as such.  The ladelling was intended to identify that it was a 
plug-board FOR the Interpreter (not BEING an interpeter), and that it was 
plug-wire programmed for doing decks of cards containing COBOL code. 
"COBOL" and "INTERPRETER" should have been two separate labels. I kept the 
board around for years, just for the sake of making that ridiculous 
misinterpretation.



I don't know where it is now.  After I retired (after 30 years), I took 
too long to move my stuff out, and about a week later found that a college 
administrator had ordered the remaining contents of my office dumpstered, 
rather than wait an additional week for me to finish the task.  (They were 
fully aware of my planned schedule, and had implied that my timeframe was 
acceptable)
I had also been promised verbally a month to forward content from my email 
account there, notify contacts, etc.  Verbal promises, particularly from 
college administrators, are not worth the paper they are printed on.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Charles Anthony

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 4:45 PM, Fred Cisin  wrote:

> you could feed the cards through an INTERPRETER, which printed the card
>>> content on the card.
>>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER",
>>> just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-)
>>>
>>
> On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, Eric Christopherson wrote:
>
>> Are you using "interpreter" in two senses here, or just one? That is to
>> say, I'm not sure if you're saying the "COBOL interpreter" was just a
>> program that printed COBOL source on a punched card, or if you mean it
>> actually ran the program.
>>
>
> Yes, I was deliberately conflating two disparate meanings of the word.
> When a friend was discussing compilers V interpreters, I pointed to the
> plug-board, and said, "SEE! There IS a COBOL interpreter!"
>
> The board was itself not a COBOL interpreter, nor even intended to be
> labelled as such.  The ladelling was intended to identify that it was a
> plug-board FOR the Interpreter (not BEING an interpeter), and that it was
> plug-wire programmed for doing decks of cards containing COBOL code.
> "COBOL" and "INTERPRETER" should have been two separate labels. I kept the
> board around for years, just for the sake of making that ridiculous
> misinterpretation.
>
>
>
The plug board could control which columns of the punch card appeared in
which columns of the printout; it served as a simple FORMAT program. The
COBOL interpreter plugboard rearranged the COBOL source on the punch card
to a more readable style on the printer.

-- Charles

CBM 1541 drive faults

2015-12-12 Thread Jules Richardson



I have four 1541's now, two of which seem to init OK, and two of which sit 
there with the drive spindle constantly spinning and the access LEDs lit, 
the latter behavior which I believe indicates a multitude of possible 
microcontroller-related faults...


I've done the obvious, reseating socketed ICs, checking the +12V and +5 
rails, and checking the on-board CPU reset line. Does anyone have any tips 
for what's best to try next?


I read somewhere that ROM faults aren't unheard of, ditto with 6522 VIA 
failures. Also the 74ls14 at UA1 (particularly if someone's unplugged the 
drive from the host with power on), but I think that affects CPU reset, 
which appears to be working in my units.


(is the firmware interchangeable between different board revisions? i.e. 
can I swap in firmware from one of the drives that appear to init OK to 
rule that out as a fault, or do I have to worry about matching PCB revisions?)


Also, has there been a worse external drive in the history of floppy 
storage? Slow, complicated, expensive and unreliable seems to have most 
bases covered ;-)


cheers

Jules

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING


For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER",
just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-)


notice the "emoticon" at the end of my original post.  I was trying to 
convey knowledge of the misinterpretation, and the humor of it.


On Sat, 12 Dec 2015, Charles Anthony wrote:

The plug board could control which columns of the punch card appeared in
which columns of the printout; it served as a simple FORMAT program. The
COBOL interpreter plugboard rearranged the COBOL source on the punch card
to a more readable style on the printer.


Exactly.
That's why there was a plug-board kept around on a shelf preprogrammed for 
the desired formatting for COBOL programs.
However, being for an "INTERPRETER", not a "407 ACCOUNTING MACHINE" (used 
for generating printouts from decks of cards), the plug-board controlled 
the column positions where the material was printed on the card, not 
printout.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question

2015-12-12 Thread Gene Buckle


On 12/12/2015 8:32 AM, Jim Brain wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952?

The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me.  Does
anyone know what it is?


I'm not sure what the board is, but it's pretty new with a 1993 
copyright date on it.


The board appears to be a Kaypro 10 board - the big give-away is the 
fully populated 50 pin connector & support logic along the right edge of 
the board.


g.

Re: IDE knowledge anyone?

2015-12-12 Thread Chuck Guzis


On 12/12/2015 03:38 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote:


No, I'm only polling the regular status register. The Interrupt pins
are not connected. My application is single threaded anyway so
polling is fine for me - I would wait anyhow until the interrupt
occured.



Hmmm, that could be the issue.  I remember (and even have code IF-ed 
out) to do ATA sans interrupt and it would run into problems.  I found 
that waiting for the interrupt to hit fixed the instability.  Granted, 
this was in simple x86 code, but if I didn't have to put the ISR code 
in, I wouldn't have done it--as it it makes things a bit more complicated.


FWIW, I can pass you the code I was using circa 1999.  It might shed 
some illumination.


--Chuck

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread Brent Hilpert

On 2015-Dec-12, at 4:15 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Robert Rissell wrote:
>> The batch job consisted of a Batch Number for accounting, the keyword-coded
>> header card(s) to tell the computer what to do with the following cards
>> such as Compile, Link, Execute then Output for a Fortran source.
> [snip]
>> Following the source you would find the cards
>> listing the input for the program, such as a list of accounts and amounts
>> to be added
>> together or sorted.
> 
> So you could have the same batch job compile AND run the program? That
> kind of surprises me. Must have saved a lot of time that way.

I entered university on the tail end of the batch era, and for student 
coursework that was the way it worked: job control cards, source, data.
Compile, list, execute, program-output all in one submission.

(This was under MTS, which despite being a timesharing system (Michigan 
Terminal System), still had support for batch.)

The good thing about batch is there was always the incentive to get your entire 
program right the first time.

Re: Kaypro Motherboard Add-On Question

2015-12-12 Thread Gene Buckle


On 12/12/2015 8:52 AM, Glen Slick wrote:

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015 at 8:32 AM, Jim Brain  wrote:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/USED-KAYPRO-4-COMPUTER-MOTHERBOARD-/331730690952?

The non soldermask boad on top of the main unit intrigues me.  Does anyone
know what it is?

Jim


The board says Centram Systems, Inc, Camp Hill, Pa.

There is a marketing blurb in the August 15, 1983 issue of
Computerworld. Don't know if it is for that exact board.


Looks like I mis-read the date - it is 1983, not 1993.  :)

g.

Re: Display-less computing was Re: TOP POSTING

On Sat, Dec 12, 2015, Fred Cisin wrote:
> For many years, I kept around a plug-board labelled "COBOL INTERPRETER",
> just to prove that a COBOL interpreter was possible :-)
> 
> notice the "emoticon" at the end of my original post.  I was trying to
> convey knowledge of the misinterpretation, and the humor of it.

To me, that's a hint at best. If it had been a winking face, I would
have been pretty confident that humor or irony was intended; simple
smiling emoticons don't indicate irony to me.

-- 
Eric Christopherson

Re: CBM 1541 drive faults

2015-12-12 Thread Mike van Bokhoven


On 13/12/2015 2:01 p.m., Jules Richardson wrote:
I have four 1541's now, two of which seem to init OK, and two of which 
sit there with the drive spindle constantly spinning and the access 
LEDs lit, the latter behavior which I believe indicates a multitude of 
possible microcontroller-related faults...
I've done the obvious, reseating socketed ICs, checking the +12V and 
+5 rails, and checking the on-board CPU reset line. Does anyone have 
any tips for what's best to try next?


Locked on LEDs and spindle motor would suggest VIA to me, though it's 
been many years since I've looked at one. First thing I'd check is that 
there's activity on the address/data buses. If things are going on, and 
there are 6522s at hand, I'd try a quick swap.


I read somewhere that ROM faults aren't unheard of, ditto with 6522 
VIA failures. Also the 74ls14 at UA1 (particularly if someone's 
unplugged the drive from the host with power on), but I think that 
affects CPU reset, which appears to be working in my units.


Can you swap ROMs in from one of the booting drives? Worth a go, though 
I've never seen a ROM failure.


(is the firmware interchangeable between different board revisions? 
i.e. can I swap in firmware from one of the drives that appear to init 
OK to rule that out as a fault, or do I have to worry about matching 
PCB revisions?)


I wouldn't have thought it'd matter, though maybe the 1541 II was 
different enough.


Also, has there been a worse external drive in the history of floppy 
storage? Slow, complicated, expensive and unreliable seems to have 
most bases covered ;-)


I sort of agree, though I have to say that of my pile of about 30 1541s 
and 1541 IIs, all but two ran up fine on first test, after having been 
in storage for 25 years. One had a bad 6522, and the other had an 
alignment issue. They were all still amazingly slow though!


Cheers,
Mike

Re: TOP POSTING

2015-12-12 Thread dave

When I post from home, I usually have a sig that refers to top posting fouling 
the order in which people normally read text.  Regarding Android, I was talking 
about a specific mail client that makes it easy to bottom-post.

On December 10, 2015 4:44:09 AM PST, Rod Smallwood 
 wrote:
>Er nope it just refers to android
>
>R
>
>
>On 10/12/2015 12:28, Peter Coghlan wrote:
>>> I'm not sure I understand what all this posting business is about.
>>> The application (Thunderbird) puts the text where it wants.
>>> In my case at the top. ie LIFO or latest first. It does the same
>with
>>> the list of messages
>>>
>>> Decmail did this from its inception as did the IBM, HP.  etc mail
>systems.
>>> I can't understand what the fuss is about. Please explain
>>>
>> The explaination in the signature in some of David Griffith's
>postings is about
>> the best and most succinct I've seen.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Peter Coghlan.

-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

IBM 2260 acoustic delay line