RE: IBM 1620

[Dave G4UGM]

 -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf
> Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 1:57 AM
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> 
> Subject: Re: IBM 1620
> 
> On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote:
> > On Aug 29, 2015, at 12:36 AM, Lyle Bickley 
> wrote:
> >
> >> I was not on the Team that did the memory analysis and the ultimate
> >> "modern" replacement memory. However, when I joined the Team, I
> asked
> >> similar questions and was told that the core memory was literally
> >> "falling apart" and was not repairable.
> >
> > I sure have a hard time fathoming any of this.
> >
> > Quite apart from the obvious one of building a pin-compatible modern
> > memory, another answer comes to mind.  If a core plane has come apart,
> > the cores could be recovered and restrung.  That requires patience and
> > dexterity, but it should be doable.  It also requires a device to hold
> > the cores correctly for threading; something like that could easily be
> > made in a a 3d printer.
> 
> Those particular cores are quite small and I'm not sure a 3d printer would
be
> able to print a jig with the tolerances required. 

Perhaps a consumer 3-D printer wouldn't, but there are higher precision
printers out there that will print to a high accuracy. 
Also not that 3-D printing with filament is just a small part of a wide
range of techniques available. There are several processes:-

http://3dprintingindustry.com/3d-printing-basics-free-beginners-guide/proces
ses/

some of which are not available to the Amateur because of cost (especially
un-expired patents) or just too complex...

There are also subtractive manufacturing methods such as laser
cutting/etching and CNC milling which could be more suitable for building a
core jig
.. Most of the FabLabs will have one of these available 

http://www.rolanddg.com/product/3d/3d/mdx-20_15/application.html

and a laser cutter

>IBM had special machines to
> position and thread them.
> http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf
> 

Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Looking at it, the machines are
extremely complex, but I am sure they could be reproduced, albeit at a
probably prohibitive cost...
.. I have marked for later reading...

> I can certainly understand why repair wasn't initially attempted, however
> that doesn't mean it is impossible. Given the rarity of the system,
welding
> new stubs of wire to the original enamel wire or completely rebuilding the
> core planes with all new wire might still well be a worthwhile project at
some
> point in the future. It might even be possible to keep most of the cores
in
> position and rethread just one portion (X, Y,
> sense/inhibit) at a time.
> 
> Another plus is that because of the way the wires are threaded, it is
unlikely
> that any of the cores have been lost, even if a large number of wires have
> broken at the terminals.

Dave Wade
G4UGM

Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-08-30 03:48, drlegendre . wrote:

Have the prices for 2600 E.T. carts climbed over the years, or is these
buyers paying a premium to own a "Genuine landfill ATARI E.T. game,
complete with certificate of authenticity" etc.?

Thing is, the article mentions only a few hundred carts. Rumor had it that
many thousands of carts were dumped, and realistically, such an operation
would never have been worth the while to dispose of only a few hundred, or
maybe a couple thousand carts.

Volumes like that could easily be crushed & ground-up. No need to drag
equipment out to the middle of the desert, just to dump a few hundred
pounds of junk.


They (Atari) dumped/crushed approximately 700.000 games in the landfill.
They (interested people) recently excavated a small part, and recovered 
a few hundred games. This is not related to how many were in there. Much 
was rubble, and most was not excavated.
It was decided to auction off some of the games recovered to benefit the 
local town in Mexico, if I remember right.


Johnny



On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Lyle Bickley 
wrote:


I was surprised to see the average cart price to be over $120!


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/29/sales-unearthed-atari-games-total-more-than-10/?intcmp=hpbt4

Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"




--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: Saved DEC kit

[Adrian Graham]

Hi Lukas,

Shipping is certainly possible but expensive, the 4000 plus a decent sized
packing box will be around 10kg so a rough guess would be ukp45/€62. If that
doesn't sound too bad I can box it up next week and let you know.

Cheers

Adrian


On 01/08/2015 11:29, "Lukas Kaminski"  wrote:

> Hi, I would be very interested in the 4000 vlc. Is it still available? Also is
> shipping to Germany possible? How miuch would it cost?
> 
> Bye,
> 
> Lukas Kaminski
> 
> Sent from my BlackBerry 10 smartphone.
>   Original Message  
> From: Adrian Graham
> Sent: Saturday, August 1, 2015 12:11
> To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Reply To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Saved DEC kit
> 
> Folks,
> 
> Before the great company meltdown of Jan this year and as I discovered the
> great mailing list breakdown of not long after I saved some DEC kit for list
> members to collect, namely:
> 
> Alpha 800 (rackmount)
> uVAX 2000
> VAX 4000VLC
> 
> These are still in my hallway in Cambs UK so if either the people who called
> for them or failing that anyone else would like to collect that'd be great.
> 
> I have proper scales for shipping weight but they need to be calibrated and
> I'm struggling to find anything that weighs exactly 25kg :)
> (I know the Alpha800 is '24-28kg', scales are pretty correct there, as they
> are with my DS25, but they get a DS10 horribly wrong so...)

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: IBM 1620

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 30, 2015, at 4:49 AM, Dave G4UGM  wrote:
> 
> ...
>> IBM had special machines to
>> position and thread them.
>> http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf

Interesting.  I remember learning about the processes DEC used.  No fancy 
machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their correct 
position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to thread the wire through the 
core planes by hand.  Seemed sensible to me; that is the process I was thinking 
about for this case.

paul

Re: Future Computers FX31

[Adam Sampson]

Jules Richardson  writes:

> Yes, it's a desktop system.

There's a news article about the FX series of machines in "Electronics
and Power", January 1983, p89:
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/stamp/stamp.jsp?arnumber=5186775

"They will be IBM compatible, and will offer built-in
local-area-networking capability. [...] the FX20, which is built around
an 8088 microprocessor and 7220 graphics controller. [...] The operating
system will be CP/M-86 [...] A utility version (FX21) of the computer
will be brought out for the OEM market, and the model FX30 will
incorporate integral Winchester hard disk."

And there's an April 1983 review of the FX20 in Which Micro:
https://archive.org/stream/whichmicro-1983-04/WhichMicro-1983-04#page/n43

They produced an AT clone called the FX100 a couple of years later:
https://archive.org/stream/BYTE_Vol_10-09_1985-09_10th_Anniversary_Issue#page/n11

So I'd guess the FX31 was an OEM version with a hard disk... except that
the one in the auction Steve pointed to has a label on the back saying
the network ports are different from the FX20/30/50, so perhaps it was a
later revision of the FX30?

Bill Bostock was the Technical Director of Future Computers Ltd. at that
point, and his CV includes "Developed Future Computer PC", so he'd
probably be the person to ask for more details:
https://uk.linkedin.com/pub/bill-bostock/17/9a4/42

Thanks,

-- 
Adam Sampson  

Re: MEM11 Status Update

[Guy Sotomayor]

On 8/30/15 12:50 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- From: Guy Sotomayor Sent: Sunday, 
August 30, 2015 7:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts Subject: MEM11 Status Update

[... snip ...]
The biggest piece of work remaining on the emulator will be emulating the
Unibus interface.  The work here will mainly to create a means to script
various Unibus transactions.

However, before doing that, I'll be testing out the boot loader code and
the configuration firmware since none of that is dependent upon the
existence of functional Unibus hardware.

TTFN - Guy


Guy,
as you have sort-of all possible UNIBUS transactions because
of the devices supported by the MEM11, I guess there is still
so work to do ;-)
One question came to my mind.
Suppose I manage to "crash" the board in such a bad way that
it does not start up anymore. Is there a jumper to force it to
execute a "golden boot"? That is, load a minimal "kernel" to
bring the MEM11 back to life to reload the bootloader and
firmware?
Shipping a dead MEM11 back to the Creator inside USA is
OK, but from Europe etc. might get costly. And Customs
probably wants to put tax on it when shipped back from you.



Yea, I'm trying to avoid having folks to send stuff back to me.

The FRAM map that I'm currently working with has locations
for 5 complete firmware images.  The bootloader and Config
Mode firmware all have support for this.  Here's what they are for:
 - 2 sets of Config Mode images.  This allows for downloading
a new image while still keeping the previous one around.
 - 2 sets of Run Mode images.  This allows for downloading
a new image while still keeping the previous one around.
 - a "safe" Config Mode image.  This image will be used when
the jumpers are set to "safe" mode or the boot loader
determines that the selected image isn't bootable.  This
image is *not* writable by the MEM11 firmware.  I *may*
decide to physically write protect it (the FRAM allows me to
write protect sections).

I'm seriously contemplating putting something in the cold boot
code (initial J1 RAM contents) that allows for downloading
image contents into FRAM.  This would help me out when I'm
bringing up an individual board for the first time (ie manufacturing).
It would also allow for recovery if the safe boot image became
corrupted for some reason.

I'm hoping that with all of the above, the only time a board would
have to be shipped back to me would be in the case of a HW failure.

TTFN - Guy

Re: MEM11 Status Update

[Guy Sotomayor]

On 8/30/15 8:45 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:



On 8/30/15 12:50 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
-Oorspronkelijk bericht- From: Guy Sotomayor Sent: Sunday, 
August 30, 2015 7:05 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and 
Off-Topic Posts Subject: MEM11 Status Update

[... snip ...]
The biggest piece of work remaining on the emulator will be emulating 
the

Unibus interface.  The work here will mainly to create a means to script
various Unibus transactions.

However, before doing that, I'll be testing out the boot loader code and
the configuration firmware since none of that is dependent upon the
existence of functional Unibus hardware.

TTFN - Guy


Guy,
as you have sort-of all possible UNIBUS transactions because
of the devices supported by the MEM11, I guess there is still
so work to do ;-)
One question came to my mind.
Suppose I manage to "crash" the board in such a bad way that
it does not start up anymore. Is there a jumper to force it to
execute a "golden boot"? That is, load a minimal "kernel" to
bring the MEM11 back to life to reload the bootloader and
firmware?
Shipping a dead MEM11 back to the Creator inside USA is
OK, but from Europe etc. might get costly. And Customs
probably wants to put tax on it when shipped back from you.



Yea, I'm trying to avoid having folks to send stuff back to me.

The FRAM map that I'm currently working with has locations
for 5 complete firmware images.  The bootloader and Config
Mode firmware all have support for this.  Here's what they are for:
 - 2 sets of Config Mode images.  This allows for downloading
a new image while still keeping the previous one around.
 - 2 sets of Run Mode images.  This allows for downloading
a new image while still keeping the previous one around.
 - a "safe" Config Mode image.  This image will be used when
the jumpers are set to "safe" mode or the boot loader
determines that the selected image isn't bootable.  This
image is *not* writable by the MEM11 firmware.  I *may*
decide to physically write protect it (the FRAM allows me to
write protect sections).

I'm seriously contemplating putting something in the cold boot
code (initial J1 RAM contents) that allows for downloading
image contents into FRAM.  This would help me out when I'm
bringing up an individual board for the first time (ie manufacturing).
It would also allow for recovery if the safe boot image became
corrupted for some reason.

I'm hoping that with all of the above, the only time a board would
have to be shipped back to me would be in the case of a HW failure.


I also forgot to mention that the cold boot code is contained within
the FPGA bitstream.  So if the cold boot code is corrupted, the FPGA
probably won't be programmed properly.  However, the FPGA bitstream
is located in its own flash part which is not writable/accessable by
the firmware.  It's only accessible through JTAG.  There will be a
header on the board since I won't have the flash parts pre-programmed
and it also allows me to update the FPGA bitstream after the board
has been built.

So, if the cold boot code doesn't run, I'd consider that a hardware
failure that would require the board to be sent back.  I'm hoping
that doesn't happen too often.  ;-)

TTFN - Guy

RE: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Dave G4UGM wrote:

On Sat, 29 Aug 2015, Tothwolf wrote:

IBM had special machines to position and thread them. 
http://ibm-1401.info/IBMCoreArraysIEEEMagnetics1969.pdf


Thanks for posting that. Very interesting. Looking at it, the machines are
extremely complex, but I am sure they could be reproduced, albeit at a
probably prohibitive cost...
.. I have marked for later reading...


Something else I forgot to mention, is that on page 8 in that pdf file, 
they mention initially using 60/40 tin-lead alloy solder for the enamel 
wire to the core plane terminals. On page 9, they describe switching to 
20/80 tin-lead so the solder would dissolve less copper from the enamel 
wire.


If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I think 
either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a more 
modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice for the 
enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly reduce the 
likelihood of any future wire breakage.

Re: IBM 1620

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 30, 2015, at 9:28 AM, Dave G4UGM  wrote:
> 
>> ...
>> Interesting.  I remember learning about the processes DEC used.  No fancy
>> machines, just a flat plate jig with slots to hold the cores in their
> correct
>> position, and nimble-fingered Oriental ladies to thread the wire through
> the
>> core planes by hand.  Seemed sensible to me; that is the process I was
>> thinking about for this case.
>> 
>>  paul
> 
> Surely DEC used machine threaded cores later on. There is a 16k (I think)
> DEC board in the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester that must be
> machine woven as you can't see the individual cores without heavy
> magnification...

Perhaps.  But I never heard of core threading machines until today.  Just 
because you can't see the cores without magnifiers doesn't mean this couldn't 
be done by hand.  It's amazing what trained hands can do. 

paul

Re: Future Computers FX31

[Jules Richardson]

On 08/29/2015 04:10 PM, Steve Hunt wrote:

I'm guessing this is it:

http://www.sekaimon.com/i361201143538

Scroll down to find the images of a desktop unit.  The pics look just
like an FX31 that was advertised on ebay.co.uk earlier on this year.


Yes, that's the critter!

Re: Future Computers FX31

[Jules Richardson]

On 08/30/2015 08:54 AM, Adam Sampson wrote:

Jules Richardson  writes:


Yes, it's a desktop system.


There's a news article about the FX series of machines in "Electronics
and Power", January 1983, p89:


Thanks for all the info - I've passed it on to the guy who has the machine. 
He's going to move the hard disk and controller card to a different machine 
and see if it seems healthy, and if so he'll try hooking a regular PC 
keyboard up - fingers crossed that it's compatible (it looks like the 
original system's keyboard would have had some extra keys, but hopefully 
the ones that match a standard PC keyboard share the same scan codes)


cheers

Jules

Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000

[Jason Scott]

There are some really, really, really pedantic Atari people who may correct
you on some of the details. Regardless, this is an extraordinarily silly
situation, akin to selling cut up squares of blankets from hotel rooms The
Beatles stayed in. I don't think it's wise to derive any conclusion or
insight into the whole situation.

As for authenticity, assume every single one is fake unless you
particularly dug it out of the earth.
On Aug 30, 2015 5:13 AM, "Johnny Billquist"  wrote:

> On 2015-08-30 03:48, drlegendre . wrote:
>
>> Have the prices for 2600 E.T. carts climbed over the years, or is these
>> buyers paying a premium to own a "Genuine landfill ATARI E.T. game,
>> complete with certificate of authenticity" etc.?
>>
>> Thing is, the article mentions only a few hundred carts. Rumor had it that
>> many thousands of carts were dumped, and realistically, such an operation
>> would never have been worth the while to dispose of only a few hundred, or
>> maybe a couple thousand carts.
>>
>> Volumes like that could easily be crushed & ground-up. No need to drag
>> equipment out to the middle of the desert, just to dump a few hundred
>> pounds of junk.
>>
>
> They (Atari) dumped/crushed approximately 700.000 games in the landfill.
> They (interested people) recently excavated a small part, and recovered a
> few hundred games. This is not related to how many were in there. Much was
> rubble, and most was not excavated.
> It was decided to auction off some of the games recovered to benefit the
> local town in Mexico, if I remember right.
>
> Johnny
>
>
>> On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 8:29 PM, Lyle Bickley 
>> wrote:
>>
>> I was surprised to see the average cart price to be over $120!
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/29/sales-unearthed-atari-games-total-more-than-10/?intcmp=hpbt4
>>>
>>> Lyle
>>> --
>>> Lyle Bickley
>>> Bickley Consulting West Inc.
>>> http://bickleywest.com
>>> "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
>>>
>>>
>
> --
> Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
>   ||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
>

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote:


If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I
think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly
a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best
choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would
greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.


Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative?

The excuse of "that's too small to work on"  seems a bit 
peculiar-sounding, particularly from people who are used to working by 
hand fine-pitch QFPs with 0.050" lead centers (and smaller).


In the range of core sizes, 1620 cores weren't particularly tiny, 
compared to, say, CDC 7600 SCM core.


So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread?  That might be a bit 
daunting from a human-hour standpoint.  I'll wager that 120K cores 
wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek.


--Chuck

Re: Area 51 - was Re: CDC-160 (was Re: IBM 1620)

[Eric Smith]

I wrote:
> Don't bother. There's nothing interesting in Area 51 any more; due to
> all the publicity Area 51 has gotten, they've long since moved all the
> good stuff to Area 52, which still has a low profile.

On Sat, Aug 29, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Toby Thain  wrote:
> I know you're just being witty, but in fact it still seems quite active:
> http://ur1.ca/nloay

They have to keep doing something at least slightly interesting at
Area 51 to maintain the cover, so everyone doesn't go looking for the
real stuff at Area 52.

Re: IBM 1620

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 30, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
> 
>> If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I
>> think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly
>> a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best
>> choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would
>> greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.
> 
> Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative?

That's what the IBM IEEE article mentions.

I'm still a bit puzzled by the dissolving of copper wire by conventional 
solder.  The wire used in core memories is thin, but not outrageously so by the 
standards of, say, Litz wire, and that is soldered routinely.

> ...
> So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread?  That might be a bit daunting 
> from a human-hour standpoint.  I'll wager that 120K cores wasn't even a day's 
> output for outfits like Fabritek.

Those cores weren't threaded one by one.  You'd start by setting the cores into 
a holding jig, which positions them correctly.  Then you thread wire from edge 
to edge.  The article mentions a needle with the wire welded to its end; that 
makes sense because the copper wire is unlikely to be stiff enough.  So the 
number of individual threading operations is 3-4x the square root of the core 
plane size.  For example, on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or 
take.  (A bit more on a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire 
architecture.)

paul

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/30/2015 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote:


So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread?  That might be a bit
daunting from a human-hour standpoint.  I'll wager that 120K cores
wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek.

Those cores weren't threaded one by one.  You'd start by setting the
cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly.  Then you
thread wire from edge to edge.  The article mentions a needle with
the wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire
is unlikely to be stiff enough.  So the number of individual
threading operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size.
For example, on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take.
(A bit more on a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire
architecture.)


I've seen the archival photos.  Still, the possibility of missing or 
damaging a single core was always there.   I wonder what the rejection 
rate was.


I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it 
only applied to larger, slower bulk core store.  One can certainly 
understand why plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive.


Sigh.  Another lost manual art.  I can remember during the 70s that the 
hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers 
were going to night courses for that.


--Chuck

RE: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000

[Ali]

> 
> How might a collector discern a "landfill" E.T. cart from any other
> E.T.
> cat that some snarky guy buried in the clay of his back forty?

Not that I am expert or anything but my understanding is that the ET cart is 
extremely rare to begin with. In fact the landfill collection is the largest 
supply of the cart to be injected into the market. 

With that in mind it would seem it would be more valuable to have a cart that 
was originally bought in the store and not found in the landfill as it would be 
even more rare.

Just my worthless two cents ;)

-Ali

RE: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151

[tony duell]

> I am trying to identify why my IBM 5151 display has no picture when
> connected to a normal MDA card in a IBM PC 5150. So armed with an
> oscilloscope, digital multi-meter and the SAMS Computerfacts for it I
> started to investigate. First, the card does send out signal and that
> signal does reach the board inside the monitor. I checked the power
> part of the circuit, all diodes and the transistor check fine. I
> probed some of the vertical and horizontal transistors and there is a
> signal there too. Then on the video board both TR19 and TR20 have on
> their collector and emitter (respectively) a signal (95Khz). What else
> can possibly be wrong?

Do you mean no picture or no raster? To me the 'picture' is the video
modulation (that makes different bits of the screen light or dark). If you
turn up the brightness and contrast controls do you get any illumination on
the screen?

I am going to assume you don't, since that is the more common problem.

First check the internal 12V (or so) supply. Is that present and correct. Note 
it mght be low due to an overload somewhere else in the monitor, for
example flyback transformer problems.

Is the CRT heater glowing (can you see an orange glow from the end of the
CRT neck)? If not, and if the 12V supply is there, then check the CRT and its
socket. There may be a series resistor too, check that.

Now check the CRT voltages. If you have an EHT meter, check the final
anode voltage (on the rubber connector on the CRT flare). Expect
about 10-12kV here.

The CRT pins (from memory) are as follows (All voltages guessed wrt ground): 

1: Control grid (10's of V, +ve or -ve)
2: Cathode (10's of V +ve)
3,4 : heater. One is ground, expect 12V or so on the other
5: Control grid (see pin 1)
6,7 : I call them anodes, you call them grids :-). Expect a few hunded volts on 
each pin.

What voltages do you measure?

-tony

Re: TSX Plus...

[Jim Carpenter]

On Sun, Aug 16, 2015 at 11:18 AM, Earl Evans  wrote:

> > Sorry guys, I dropped the ball on this. I've been doing a bunch of
> > transitioning and ended up working on a number of other projects - and
> > completely forgot about TSX.
> >
> > This discussion is prodding me to finish my half done website for TSX...
> >
> > I apologize for the huge delay...
> >
> > Lyle
> >
> > --
> > Bickley Consulting West Inc.
> > http://bickleywest.com
> >
> > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
> >
>
> Bump?
>
> I'm still quite interested in this (and if we can collect some other TSX
> Plus software as mentioned by other list members).


And I'm also still very interested in this. How is this project going?

Jim

Re: IBM 1620

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 30, 2015, at 2:34 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
> 
> ...
> I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it only 
> applied to larger, slower bulk core store.  One can certainly understand why 
> plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive.

Perhaps CDC's ECS?  125k (funny number that) words per memory bank.

> Sigh.  Another lost manual art.  I can remember during the 70s that the hot 
> thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers were going 
> to night courses for that.

I've never done that, though I have Carver Mead's textbook that describes how 
it is done.  I did do a PC board layout with red and blue tape on a light 
table, in 1977.

paul

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/30/2015 12:15 PM, Paul Koning wrote:


Perhaps CDC's ECS?  125k (funny number that) words per memory bank.


Possibly.  We used a lot of it in SSD.  4MW installations were not 
uncommon, shared among 2-4 mainframes.  As I recall, core errors were 
not treated the same way as CM--part of deadstart was "flawing" ECS and 
creating a map of flawed areas, much as one might do with a disk.


It also had priority in CM access, so if you were doing a bunch of ECS 
transfers, you could see the DSD display dim and flicker.  1LT (long 
stranger tape driver) had conniptions with data underrun errors when ECS 
transfers were going on.



I've never done that, though I have Carver Mead's textbook that
describes how it is done.  I did do a PC board layout with red and
blue tape on a light table, in 1977.


This was Silicon Valley, circa 1978 or so.  A bunch of Intel people put 
together a training course (not Intel-sponsored) for people who wanted 
to learn IC design.


PCB design was also a specialty, what with mylar film, tape, white-out 
and India ink and, of course, an X-acto knife.  The best people at this 
seemed to be from the Far East.  Done probably at 4X scale, then reduced 
for production.


--Chuck

RE: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000

[Ali]

> A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are
> dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at
> about $5.00.

I stand corrected. 

> 
> The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a
> joke, possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with
> Superman 64 for N64.

I could have sworn that prior to the "dig" I read a number of articles 
indicating that this was one of the reasons for the dig i.e. The game was so 
horrible Atari tried to destroy any and all evidence of it by burying it so 
only a few copies remained.

However, as the game is apparently readily available I would say both editions 
are worthless or to be more precise of low monetary value. But as the old 
saying goes "one man's junk..." :)

-Ali

Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-08-30 22:19, Ali wrote:

A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are
dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at
about $5.00.


I stand corrected.


:-)


The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a
joke, possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with
Superman 64 for N64.


I could have sworn that prior to the "dig" I read a number of articles 
indicating that this was one of the reasons for the dig i.e. The game was so horrible 
Atari tried to destroy any and all evidence of it by burying it so only a few copies 
remained.


Yes. This was a reason for the dig.


However, as the game is apparently readily available I would say both editions are 
worthless or to be more precise of low monetary value. But as the old saying goes 
"one man's junk..." :)


Records state that Atari manufactured 5 million copies, but "only" sold 
1.5 million... So it was a big loss for the company, but that do not 
mean that it is uncommon.
Even more spectacular was Pac-Mac, of which they manufactures 12 million 
copies (they had only sold 10 millions consoles).

7 million sold meant another 5 million unsold copies...

Lots of fun.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial for more.

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: IBM 1620

[Jon Elson]

On 08/30/2015 03:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:


PCB design was also a specialty, what with mylar film, 
tape, white-out and India ink and, of course, an X-acto 
knife.  The best people at this seemed to be from the Far 
East.  Done probably at 4X scale, then reduced for 
production.


Yup, back in the 70's I did a bunch of PCB design using 
mylar and black crepe tape, and pre-made donuts and IC pads.
UGH!!!  I still have a bunch of those sitting in folders.  I 
made my own reduction camera to bring the artwork down to 
1:1 size.


Then, in 1976 or so, I got my first CAD system, and printed 
everything out on plotters with India ink and Rapidograph 
pens on frosted Mylar.  If the pen didn't clog up or run dry 
before the print was finished, it worked pretty well, and 
there were Litho houses that mostly did ad copy that would 
do the reduction for a couple $.


I hacked a fiber optic light pen onto a Calcomp plotter and 
made some artwork directly onto film, and then in 1996 I 
built a laser photoplotter that cranks out 1000x1000 DPI 
images on red-sensitive film at 0.6 inches/minute.  It can 
do up to 20 x 24" films, but I've never gone over about one 
foot square.  The trick is, it has to be VERY accurate to 
line up with existing PC boards.  I mostly use it to make 
solder paste stencils, now, but originally made it for PC 
board master artwork.


Jon

Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000

[TeoZ]

Even the unsold copies ended up getting purchased at the Atari liquidation 
firesale and there are people still selling them NIB cheap. The ET cart can 
be had for $2 (one of the cheapest)

http://www.atari2600.com/ccp7/ecom-prodshow/ET-The-Extra-Terrestrial-PROD375.html



-Original Message- 
From: Johnny Billquist

Sent: Sunday, August 30, 2015 4:29 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000

On 2015-08-30 22:19, Ali wrote:

A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are
dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at
about $5.00.


I stand corrected.


:-)


The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a
joke, possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with
Superman 64 for N64.


I could have sworn that prior to the "dig" I read a number of articles 
indicating that this was one of the reasons for the dig i.e. The game was 
so horrible Atari tried to destroy any and all evidence of it by burying 
it so only a few copies remained.


Yes. This was a reason for the dig.

However, as the game is apparently readily available I would say both 
editions are worthless or to be more precise of low monetary value. But as 
the old saying goes "one man's junk..." :)


Records state that Atari manufactured 5 million copies, but "only" sold
1.5 million... So it was a big loss for the company, but that do not
mean that it is uncommon.
Even more spectacular was Pac-Mac, of which they manufactures 12 million
copies (they had only sold 10 millions consoles).
7 million sold meant another 5 million unsold copies...

Lots of fun.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atari_video_game_burial for more.

Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol 



---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

E.T. is not the worse game for the Atari 2600 (was Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100, 000)

[Sean Conner]

It was thus said that the Great drlegendre . once stated:
> 
> The game [E.T.] is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a 
> joke,
> possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman 64 for
> N64.

  I would think it depends upon your criteria for "worst video game ever."
I mean, "Chase the Chuck Wagon" [1] or "Custer's Revenge" [2] could easily
take the "worst video game ever" slot.  E.T. actually had a plot (as E.T.,
collect parts to "phone home").   

  Also, given the story behind E.T., it's an incredible accomplishment in
Atari 2600 programming---only five weeks to come up with an idea and get it
programmed on a machine where you had to program the screen nearly
pixel-by-pixel in about 4K of ROM (and 128 bytes of RAM).

  I think the main problem with the game is the pixel-perfect collision
detection that makes it all too easy to fall into the pits.  It can be fixed
[3] but not with some addtional issues.

  -spc (It's certainly more complex than Adventure ... )

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase_the_Chuck_Wagon

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer%27s_Revenge

[3] http://www.neocomputer.org/projects/et/

Re: E.T. is not the worse game for the Atari 2600 (was Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100, 000)

[Jason Scott]

Someone went through E.T. and fixed a lot of the bugs and oversights,
releasing an improved version. It's playable here:

https://archive.org/details/ET_Fixed_Final

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 5:54 PM, Sean Conner  wrote:

> It was thus said that the Great drlegendre . once stated:
> >
> > The game [E.T.] is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's
> a joke,
> > possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman 64 for
> > N64.
>
>   I would think it depends upon your criteria for "worst video game ever."
> I mean, "Chase the Chuck Wagon" [1] or "Custer's Revenge" [2] could easily
> take the "worst video game ever" slot.  E.T. actually had a plot (as E.T.,
> collect parts to "phone home").
>
>   Also, given the story behind E.T., it's an incredible accomplishment in
> Atari 2600 programming---only five weeks to come up with an idea and get it
> programmed on a machine where you had to program the screen nearly
> pixel-by-pixel in about 4K of ROM (and 128 bytes of RAM).
>
>   I think the main problem with the game is the pixel-perfect collision
> detection that makes it all too easy to fall into the pits.  It can be
> fixed
> [3] but not with some addtional issues.
>
>   -spc (It's certainly more complex than Adventure ... )
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chase_the_Chuck_Wagon
>
> [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer%27s_Revenge
>
> [3] http://www.neocomputer.org/projects/et/
>
>

Re: De-yellowing results

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/30/2015 11:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:

On 08/28/2015 12:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:

We're thinking about building that kind of "deyellowing station" in
the MARCH warehouse.


Hmm, single UV lamp, couple of stepper motors and a couple of
circular tracks, one set at right angles to the other - plus a few
misc. bits and pieces? ;-)


I'd wager that a couple of T8 germicidal lamps (UVC) would do the trick 
pretty quickly, but they're pricey, unless you have a friend who runs a 
slaughterhouse or sewage treatment plant.  Can be ordered through Home 
Depot.


--Chuck

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/30/2015 11:15 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

So there'd be what, 120,000 cores to thread?  That might be a bit 
daunting from a human-hour standpoint.  I'll wager that 120K cores 
wasn't even a day's output for outfits like Fabritek.


Those cores weren't threaded one by one.  You'd start by setting the 
cores into a holding jig, which positions them correctly.  Then you 
thread wire from edge to edge.  The article mentions a needle with the 
wire welded to its end; that makes sense because the copper wire is 
unlikely to be stiff enough.  So the number of individual threading 
operations is 3-4x the square root of the core plane size. For example, 
on a 4k core plane, it would be 200 steps, give or take. (A bit more on 
a CDC 6000 series core plane with its peculiar 5 wire architecture.)


I've seen the archival photos.  Still, the possibility of missing or 
damaging a single core was always there.  I wonder what the rejection 
rate was.


I have heard of machine-fabricated core as well, but I thought that it 
only applied to larger, slower bulk core store.  One can certainly 
understand why plated-wire or thin-film technologies were attractive.


Sigh.  Another lost manual art.  I can remember during the 70s that the 
hot thing was to learn IC layout--the wives of a number of co-workers 
were going to night courses for that.


According to IBM's paper, extra cores were threaded initially and used to 
replace any cores that tested bad during assembly. Any extras were crushed 
after assembly to remove them.

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote:


If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I
think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly
a more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best
choice for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would
greatly reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.


Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative?


Yes, if the terminals had been designed for that. The terminals on these 
would have been designed for soldering, so unless you wanted to replace 
all the existing terminals, it would probably be best to stick to 
soldering. Either a low-tin + copper or non-tin solder really should solve 
the problem anyway.

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Paul Koning wrote:

On Aug 30, 2015, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
On 08/30/2015 09:47 AM, Tothwolf wrote:

If repair of the core memory in CHM's IBM 1620 is ever attempted, I 
think either low-tin solder alloy with 1-2% added copper or possibly a 
more modern indium-lead solder alloy would probably be the best choice 
for the enamel wire to terminal connections since that would greatly 
reduce the likelihood of any future wire breakage.


Wouldn't solderless bonding/welding be a better alternative?


That's what the IBM IEEE article mentions.

I'm still a bit puzzled by the dissolving of copper wire by conventional 
solder.  The wire used in core memories is thin, but not outrageously so 
by the standards of, say, Litz wire, and that is soldered routinely.


See the other paper I mentioned earlier in the thread: 
https://app.aws.org/wj/supplement/WJ_1975_10_s370.pdf


On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to 0.002" 
after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" reduction is 
basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains the failures of 
the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620.


Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of 
thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on.

Re: IBM 1620

[ben]

On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote:


On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to
0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011"
reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains
the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620.

Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of
thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now on.

But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case 
here as I suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very 
thin thread of wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation

clear this up.
Ben.

Re: De-yellowing results

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/30/2015 11:08 AM, Jules Richardson wrote:

On 08/28/2015 12:08 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:

We're thinking about building that kind of "deyellowing station" in 
the MARCH warehouse.


Hmm, single UV lamp, couple of stepper motors and a couple of circular 
tracks, one set at right angles to the other - plus a few misc. bits 
and pieces? ;-)


I'd wager that a couple of T8 germicidal lamps (UVC) would do the trick 
pretty quickly, but they're pricey, unless you have a friend who runs a 
slaughterhouse or sewage treatment plant.  Can be ordered through Home 
Depot.


Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long wave UVA outdoors, so 
blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer) choice. 
When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were going for about 
USD $10 per lamp.


UVC germicidal lamps would also require an enclosure to protect the user 
from exposure to short wave UV. This isn't as necessary with long wave UVA 
(unless someone was going to be around it for long periods of time on a 
regular basis).

Re: IBM 1620

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, ben wrote:

On 8/30/2015 6:32 PM, Tothwolf wrote:

On page 5, they describe 0.0031" 40 AWG magnet wire being reduced to 
0.002" after soldering with 60/40 tin-lead solder. That 0.0011" 
reduction is basically 1/3 of the diameter of the wire. This explains 
the failures of the enamel wires in CHM's IBM 1620.


Copper erosion from tin is something I'd never really given a lot of 
thought to, but it will certainly be something I keep in mind from now 
on.


But is that the case? Would not heat induced failure be the real case 
here as I suspect that a amp or two of current is flowing that now very 
thin thread of wire? Digging though the doc's and a little calculation 
clear this up.


My guess is that over time the thinned wires broke due to a combination of 
vibration and thermal fatigue. Vibration while transporting the system to 
CHM may well have been what ultimately caused them to break.

Re: Sales of unearthed Atari games total more than $100,000

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, drlegendre . wrote:

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Ali  wrote:

How might a collector discern a "landfill" E.T. cart from any other 
E.T. cat that some snarky guy buried in the clay of his back forty?


Not that I am expert or anything but my understanding is that the ET 
cart is extremely rare to begin with. In fact the landfill collection 
is the largest supply of the cart to be injected into the market.


A quick search of eBay would correct your 'understanding'. There are 
dozens of copies for sale, many with boxes and manuals. They start at 
about $5.00.


The game is very common, and generally considered worthless. It's a 
joke, possibly the "worst video game ever made" - up there with Superman 
64 for N64.


When I used to buy Atari stuff at resale shops to build my own collection 
(back in the early to mid 1990s when people were practically giving away 
2600 stuff), ET seemed to be pretty common. It wasn't nearly as common as 
Pac-Man or Pitfall! or a pack-in game like Combat, but I saw them 
frequently. I gave/traded away quite a few copies of ET but kept at least 
one.

Re: IBM 1620

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/30/2015 05:16 PM, Tothwolf wrote:


According to IBM's paper, extra cores were threaded initially and
used to replace any cores that tested bad during assembly. Any extras
were crushed after assembly to remove them.


I suspect there were also extra rows after shipment as well.  I seem to 
remember a magnet and a broomstick that got used to fish out remnants in 
the 7090 (oil bath) core units.


--Chuck

Re: De-yellowing results

[Chuck Guzis]

On 08/30/2015 05:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote:


Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long wave UVA outdoors, so
blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer) choice.
When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were going for
about USD $10 per lamp.


Oh, but there's that aitch-nu thing--I suspect that the UVC lamps would 
do the job very quickly.   I recall that someone tried the de-yellowing 
process with UV LEDs and got nowhere fast.  So probably UVB at a minimum.


--Chuck

Re: De-yellowing results

[Tothwolf]

On Sun, 30 Aug 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 08/30/2015 05:55 PM, Tothwolf wrote:

Wrong type of UV. You are mostly getting long wave UVA outdoors, so 
blacklight lamps would seem to be the correct (and MUCH safer) choice. 
When I looked at 24" T8 bi-pin blacklight lamps, they were going for 
about USD $10 per lamp.


Oh, but there's that aitch-nu thing--I suspect that the UVC lamps would 
do the job very quickly.  I recall that someone tried the de-yellowing 
process with UV LEDs and got nowhere fast.  So probably UVB at a 
minimum.


Maybe...maybe not. I do know from experience that short wave UVC from 
germicidal lamps can photodegrade certain plastics, PVC in particular. UVC 
germicidal lamps can also cause serious eye damage in very short order. 
Even the really small UVC lamps used in an EPROM eraser are hazardous, 
which is why they have interlock switches that disable the lamps when 
open.


You are going to get a _lot_ more UVA exposure than UVB outdoors, but who 
knows. You aren't going to get much UVC outdoors though.


A typical T1-3/4 UV led doesn't put out anywhere near the energy that a 
bi-pin/fluorescent lamp does, so unless you had a large array of high 
output UV leds, I really wouldn't expect all that much from them.

RE: Advice about repairing an IBM 5151

[tony duell]

> > Do you mean no picture or no raster? To me the 'picture' is the video
> > modulation (that makes different bits of the screen light or dark). If you
> > turn up the brightness and contrast controls do you get any illumination on
> > the screen?
> The screen is entirely black no matter what I do with brightness and contrast 
> controls.

OK Given the CRT voltages you give later, I would expect that.

> > The CRT pins (from memory) are as follows (All voltages guessed wrt ground):
> >
> > 1: Control grid (10's of V, +ve or -ve)
> 225mV
> > 2: Cathode (10's of V +ve)
> 170mV
> > 3,4 : heater. One is ground, expect 12V or so on the other
> 3 : 12V
> 4: Ground
> > 5: Control grid (see pin 1)
> 225mV
> > 6,7 : I call them anodes, you call them grids :-). Expect a few hunded 
> > volts on each pin.
> 6: 7.33V
> 7: 10.29V
> >
> > What voltages do you measure?
> I checked all those with respect to ground ( pin 4).

Well, all the electrode votlages are very low.

They all come from the flyback transformer in the horizontal output stage. Now 
the 5151 is 
unusual in that it doesn't have a horizontal oscillator. The horizontal signal 
from the MDA
card goes straight to the horizontal driver which, IIRC, is transformer coupled 
to the
horizontal output transistor.

So, start by checking you have a horizontal signal from the MDA card. I think 
it's pin 8 of
the DE9, if not it's pin 9, the other being the vertical sync signal. If that's 
present and correct
check through the driver and output stages, there are not that many components.

If it is transformer coupled, then I have had those driver transformers go 
open-circuit in
monitors -- not in the 5151 yet,  but it could happen.

-tony



Regards,
Vlad.
>
> -tony

APL\360

[Paul_Koning]

Probably old news to some, but I just ran into this 3 year old article.  Gotta 
dust off your Hercules:  
http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-apl-programming-language-source-code/

And also http://wotho.ethz.ch/mvt4apl-2.00/

paul