Re: XH558 - was Re: using new technology etc

[ANDY HOLT]

>From my local paper:

The last flying Vulcan bomber will be flying over the (non flying) Vulcan at 
Southend Airport on Sunday. It doesn't get much better than TWO Vulcans 
together - it's unique in fact - the Southend Vulcan bomber will be overflown 
by XH558 (the last flying Vulcan) in a tribute to the V-Force in a mini-flying 
display THIS Sunday! The local Vulcan will be open for visitors and cockpit 
tours all day.

AT&T terminal keyboards?

[Ethan Dicks]

Hi, All,

I just picked up a couple of AT&T terminals, a 730+ and a 5620 "Blit"
terminal.  The 730+ powers on, passes self-test and probably would
work great if I had a keyboard for it.  The 5620 lights the CRT but
doesn't appear to work outside of presenting a huge green dot the size
of the raster.  It also lacks a keyboard.  I have hopes that it's
something simple like wonky internal connectors that need to be
reseated (vs bad components).

I read on one of the several FAQs that I can use an AT&T 4410 terminal
keyboard with the 730+.  The box has an 8p8c jack.  Additionally, from
the same source, I got a 3B1/7300 keyboard and mouse.  It happens to
have an 8-pin 0.1" female connector in a barbed-lock housing. Outside
of the connector, the key layout is superficially the same as a
picture I saw of a 730+/4410 keyboard.  What I'm curious about is if
they are electrically compatible - i.e., could one make an 8p8c->2x4
pin header pin swabber and have the 3B1 keyboard work on the 730+?  I
won't shocked if they are entirely different, but there are enough
superficial similarities that I'm minded to at least ask.

I've found the trove of old Blit apps, etc. and see how tortuous the
path is to get layers working, etc., but for now, I've got a couple
old terminals that are entirely unlike any of the DEC terminals I
have, so that by itself is cool.

Thanks for any deep knowledge of these guys that isn't already covered
on the FAQs.

-ethan

Re: Persci 299 with unknown Persci dual S-100 cards?

[Santo Nucifora]

Last night I was able to read the EPROMs on the second of the two Persci
cards and embedded in the code was the string "ERSCI 1170 V F.2-5".  I'm
strongly suspecting it's proof that both cards make up a PerSci 1170
controller :)   I have the four 2716 EPROMS dumped in the files area of my
site at http://vintagecomputer.ca/files-area/ .  If someone would like to
disassemble them, I'd love to find out more.  If there is a tool I can use,
please let me know.  I was not able to read the 2708 on the first card at
this point.

If anyone has any information on the Persci 1170 controller, I'd love to
know if any additional software is required to run it or if I can jump to a
specific address to run it.  I do NOT have any disks for this.

It appears to be an uncommon drive so any information at all would be much
appreciated.

Santo

On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 7:59 PM, Santo Nucifora 
wrote:

> Hello,
>
> I recently acquired a Persci 2142 dual disk drive with two S-100
> controller cards.  The 2142 is a Persci slim-line case that fits the
> internal Persci 299 drives but also included were to Persci S-100 cards.
> The only thing that makes sense is that one or both of these are the Persci
> 1170 controller card (set) but I have not been able to find a picture of
> such a card anywhere.  There is an 1170 card picture at the Computer
> History Museum but it suspiciously looks like a Vector S-100 prototype
> board with components on it (and not the right amount compare to my
> cards).  That page is here:
> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102712583
>
> I have pictures in my latest post of the front and back of both cards
> along with the Persci 299 drive mechanism and the complete 2142 unit.  If
> anyone knows what a Persci 1170 controller looks like, I'd love to know if
> that's what I have.  Is it both cards?  I am assuming so because there's a
> marketing brochure out there with a description of the 1170 controller and
> the Z80 CPU, as described, is on the second card (not the main card) as is
> the memory.
>
> Pictures of what I have are here:
> http://vintagecomputer.ca/persci-drive-is-a-299-what-are-the-controller-boards/
>
> I can try to read the EPROMS on the second board (they are B2716s) but the
> first board has a 2708 and I've nothing that will read it.  Maybe that will
> give a clue?  I would assume that's where Persci DOS is?
>
> I will be taking the 299 drive mechanism apart and refurbishing this drive
> as I did the Persci 270 in my Processor Technology Helios II (big thanks to
> Martin Eberhard for his awesome guide and his help!).  Hopefully it's close
> enough to the 299 that the guide will still be useful.  I have yet to check
> if the glass gauge is intact in this drive or all of this will be for
> nothing.  I'll do that when I take it apart.  Should be a fun project.
>
> If you have any info, please let me know.  It would be much appreciated.
> Santo
>

Re: UNIBUS extension card/cable sets

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: tony duell

>> So every other wire on the 40-conductor flat cables should be ground -
>> that's even better than the classic BC11A, where almost every other
>> line is, from what I can see, simply left floating (which is better
>> than nothing, but not as good as grounding them, is my understanding).

> I am surprised. DEC didn't waste copper like that. It's been a long
> time since I worked on a BC11A, but I thought alternate wires were
> grounded. Maybe a track right along the edge of the PCB where the cable
> comes off (so you can't see it).

You're right, the alternates are grounded (ohmmeter shows it). I cannot see
how they did it; I think there must be a comb-shaped trace along the top of
the card, where it's hidden once the Flexprint cable is soldered down. The
intermediate ground conductor on one trace, on one end, _is_ connected to
ground, so the rest could pick it up via a comb-shaped trace.


>> I would have assumed that it's the _change_ from one impedance level
>> to another that's the issue (you can get a reflection off the
>> junction), so whether one's using long or short cables between a pair
>> of M9014's, it shouldn't be _that_ big a deal (modulo propagation
>> delays, which _are_ an issue with length).

> Well, Unibus is terminated into 180 Ohms and 390 Ohms, isn't it?

Yes.

> The thevenin equivalent is thus around 123 Ohms.

DEC spec for UNIBUS is 120 +/- 18 ohms.

> Most ribbon cables have a characteristic impedance when used with
> alternate wires grounded of around 100 Ohms (I seem to remember that is
> certainly right for the twist-n-flat ones).

What's the number for the regular flat? (I have a ton of the latter, but none
of the twisted kind. And speaking of the twisted kind, I've always wondered
what kind of machine they used to produce it - the mind reels!)

By definition, regular flat must work 'OK', because DEC created these cards,
and specified the use of ordinary BC05L-xx cables, so whatever its number
is, it must be acceptable! :-)

> That's a small mismatch, but I don't think it is going to cause big
> problems.

BTW, is my understanding that the issue is the _junction_ of the two
different impedences, and not so much the length of the section with a
different impedance, correct? (The sound-based mental model I'm using is two
different diameters of pipe - going from a larger cross-section to a smaller
could produce echos - aka reflections - from the junction, but after that, it
should be OK.)

Noel

Re: Northtop Flying Wing, inflight computing / was Re: XH558 - was Re: using new technology etc

[Toby Thain]

On 2015-06-26 12:47 AM, Robert Ollerton wrote:

From memory, so please forgive a mistake or two:  The TB-49 Wings would Yaw

(side to side motion) while in flight, sometimes just enough to make the
crew seasick, sometimes enough to be dangerous when in formation with other
aircraft and always unable to stay on track to be a useful bomber.  I
recall someone saying the yaw was several wing spans in length in each
direction.  The autopilots of the time couldn't dampen it fast enough let
alone keep it under control.  Jack Northrup and his team knew they would
have to wait for something both programmable, more data inputs and faster.
there were about 4  or 6  piston engined, and 4 or 6 jet engine versions.
Stored on the ramp at Ontario California airport for many years and then
sold for salvage, I think in the late 60s or mid 70s.  Jack Northrup
continued to be enthusiastic about the tail-less design even in
retirement.  Much later, Jack was given a vip tour of the secret B2 factory
and presented with a model of the design in Lancaster CA before his
death.Im pretty sure there is a book on this, perhaps from the
Smithsonian Air and Space Museum.


Indeed - The Flickr thread I linked to cites the book and also mentions 
those anecdotes from it.


[ Comment: http://ur1.ca/mvh7k , et seq. ]

--Toby



On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 2:40 PM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:


On 2015-Jun-19, at 9:07 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:


Bringing this topic full circle, does anyone know if any minicomputers
(DEC PDP-8s or 11s, DG Novæ, HP 21XXs, et cetera) were ever used on
aircraft? Not transported by one, but I mean setup and used on one.



On 2015-Jun-19, at 12:09 PM, Toby Thain wrote:

On 2015-06-19 3:05 PM, geneb wrote:

On Fri, 19 Jun 2015, Toby Thain wrote:


"in 1949 the Air Force ordered all the flying wings destroyed, all
the jigs and tools destroyed, every trace of the flying wing
eradicated. A few years later even the engineering drawings were all
destroyed by new Northrop management."


I don't know why they went to those lengths, but it's my understanding
that the program was cancelled because at the time, the USAAF (USAF?)
mandated stall testing as part of their development programs.  Without
serious flight control computers, stalling a flying wing just ends up in
a freshly planted aluminum tree.  Even WITH good computers, stalling a
flying wing is a Bad Idea(tm).  AFAIK, the B-2 has never been stalled
(on purpose), even during development.


Thanks. I knew there must be more to it... I wonder if the cited book

covers this angle.



To tie these two lines of question together (and bring it back very much
on-topic), the BINAC (amongst the first stored-program computers, 1949)
was supplied to Northrop for research into airborne flight control (quick
web search says part of the Snark missile project),

I'm not suggesting the BINAC and YB-49 (the flying wing) were connected,
but it's interesting they were contemporary projects both at Northrop, and
computer control was just what the flying wing needed.

cctech cctalk mail filtering algorithm

[Al Kossow]

I subscribe to both lists. From examining the mail headers,
here is a mail filtering algorithm that seems to deal with
duplicate posts showing up from the other group.

Create a cctalk and cctech saved mail folder

in this order:

put msgs with "To" header of either cctalk or classiccmp into cctalk

put msgs with "To" header of cctech into cctech

if "To" == cctalk and "Reply-To" == cctech, delete the message

if "To" == cctech and "Reply-To" == cctalk, delete the message


there are a couple stragglers for the case where "To" == classiccmp
but this got the bulk of the dups.

Re: Persci 299 with unknown Persci dual S-100 cards?

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Jun-26, at 4:11 AM, Santo Nucifora wrote:
> On Wed, Jun 24, 2015 at 7:59 PM, Santo Nucifora 
> wrote:
>> 
>> I recently acquired a Persci 2142 dual disk drive with two S-100
>> controller cards.  The 2142 is a Persci slim-line case that fits the
>> internal Persci 299 drives but also included were to Persci S-100 cards.
>> The only thing that makes sense is that one or both of these are the Persci
>> 1170 controller card (set) but I have not been able to find a picture of
>> such a card anywhere.  There is an 1170 card picture at the Computer
>> History Museum but it suspiciously looks like a Vector S-100 prototype
>> board with components on it (and not the right amount compare to my
>> cards).  That page is here:
>> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102712583
>> 
>> I have pictures in my latest post of the front and back of both cards
>> along with the Persci 299 drive mechanism and the complete 2142 unit.  If
>> anyone knows what a Persci 1170 controller looks like, I'd love to know if
>> that's what I have.  Is it both cards?  I am assuming so because there's a
>> marketing brochure out there with a description of the 1170 controller and
>> the Z80 CPU, as described, is on the second card (not the main card) as is
>> the memory.
>> 
>> Pictures of what I have are here:
>> http://vintagecomputer.ca/persci-drive-is-a-299-what-are-the-controller-boards/
>> 
>> I can try to read the EPROMS on the second board (they are B2716s) but the
>> first board has a 2708 and I've nothing that will read it.  Maybe that will
>> give a clue?  I would assume that's where Persci DOS is?
>> 
>> I will be taking the 299 drive mechanism apart and refurbishing this drive
>> as I did the Persci 270 in my Processor Technology Helios II (big thanks to
>> Martin Eberhard for his awesome guide and his help!).  Hopefully it's close
>> enough to the 299 that the guide will still be useful.  I have yet to check
>> if the glass gauge is intact in this drive or all of this will be for
>> nothing.  I'll do that when I take it apart.  Should be a fun project.


> Last night I was able to read the EPROMs on the second of the two Persci
> cards and embedded in the code was the string "ERSCI 1170 V F.2-5".  I'm
> strongly suspecting it's proof that both cards make up a PerSci 1170
> controller :)   I have the four 2716 EPROMS dumped in the files area of my
> site at http://vintagecomputer.ca/files-area/ .  If someone would like to
> disassemble them, I'd love to find out more.  If there is a tool I can use,
> please let me know.  I was not able to read the 2708 on the first card at
> this point.
> 
> If anyone has any information on the Persci 1170 controller, I'd love to
> know if any additional software is required to run it or if I can jump to a
> specific address to run it.  I do NOT have any disks for this.
> 
> It appears to be an uncommon drive so any information at all would be much
> appreciated.


Not a lot of help, but there's a brochure for the 1070 and 1170 controllers 
here:

http://maben.homeip.net/static/S100/persci/brochure/Persci%201070%201170%20Controllers.pdf

The one picture in the brochure looks like it is of the 1070 though, so no pic 
of the 1170; it also doesn't mention it being a double-board set.

(A 2708 could be read with a 2716 reader with an adapter to reroute a couple of 
pins, and additional -5/+12 power supplies.)

Re: Northtop Flying Wing, inflight computing

[Noel Chiappa]

> On 2015-06-26 12:47 AM, Robert Ollerton wrote:

> Im pretty sure there is a book on this, perhaps from the Smithsonian
> Air and Space Museum.

As it so happens, within arm's reach of where I'm sitting I have what is
probably the book you refer to:

  Gary R. Pape, John M. Campbell, "Northrop Flying Wings: A History of
Jack Northrop's Visionary Aircraft", Shiffer, 1995

It's a large-format book on glossy paper with tons of illusrations; it covers
the prototypes as well as the bombers, and in great detail. Highly
recommended.

> Much later, Jack was given a vip tour of the secret B2 factory and
> presented with a model of the design in Lancaster CA before his death.

Yes, a famous story in the aviation world. Somebody had a lot of class.

The book has a picture of Jack with the B-2 design team.


{Hope I got the attribution right here: I didn't get the intermediate
messages, so I'm picking this out of a later reply.}

>> On 2015-06-19 3:05 PM, geneb wrote:

>> it's my understanding that the program was cancelled because at the
>> time, the USAAF (USAF?) mandated stall testing as part of their
>> development programs. Without serious flight control computers,
>> stalling a flying wing just ends up in a freshly planted aluminum tree.

Umm, not quite. See pp. 160-161; they did deliberately stall a YB-49 as part
of the flight test program; it was pretty benign unless the CG was way aft,
in which case it became a handful.

The Air Force did lose one during flight testing, it is thought perhaps as
the result of a spin; it is further thought that perhaps Northrop's guidance
on how to handle spins in this very unusual flying device wasn't given to the
test pilots - one of whom was Glen Edwards, who the Edwards AFB is named
after.

The book isn't clear on why the wings were dropped; it seems to have been a
combination of DoD budget limitations, cost over-runs in the wing program,
the loss of the two YB-49 prototypes in accidents, etc.

Noel

RE: UNIBUS extension card/cable sets

[tony duell]

[BC11A cable]

> You're right, the alternates are grounded (ohmmeter shows it). I cannot see
> how they did it; I think there must be a comb-shaped trace along the top of
> the card, where it's hidden once the Flexprint cable is soldered down. The
> intermediate ground conductor on one trace, on one end, _is_ connected to
> ground, so the rest could pick it up via a comb-shaped trace.


> > Well, Unibus is terminated into 180 Ohms and 390 Ohms, isn't it?
> 
> Yes.
> 
>> The thevenin equivalent is thus around 123 Ohms.
> 
> DEC spec for UNIBUS is 120 +/- 18 ohms.

Although 100 ohms is just out side that spec, I'll bet the mismatch wouldn't 
cause problems
on most systems.

>> Most ribbon cables have a characteristic impedance when used with
>> alternate wires grounded of around 100 Ohms (I seem to remember that is
>> certainly right for the twist-n-flat ones).

> What's the number for the regular flat? (I have a ton of the latter, but none

Pretty close to 100 ohms I think. You might be able to find a specification 
somewhere. Alas
I don't have a suitable TDR, or I'd link up a reel of cable and try terminating 
the end and see
what value gave minimum reflections.

> of the twisted kind. And speaking of the twisted kind, I've always wondered
> what kind of machine they used to produce it - the mind reels!)

Eeek!

> By definition, regular flat must work 'OK', because DEC created these cards,
> and specified the use of ordinary BC05L-xx cables, so whatever its number
> is, it must be acceptable! :-)

It does

>> That's a small mismatch, but I don't think it is going to cause big
>> problems.
> 
> BTW, is my understanding that the issue is the _junction_ of the two
> different impedences, and not so much the length of the section with a
> different impedance, correct? (The sound-based mental model I'm using is two
> different diameters of pipe - going from a larger cross-section to a smaller
> could produce echos - aka reflections - from the junction, but after that, it
> should be OK.)

Generally yes. I think you'll get a reflection at one end of the mismatched 
cable
and a similar, but inverted, one at the other end. The length of the mismatched
bit will presuambly affect the time between the reflections but not how big they
are.

-tony

Re: Northtop Flying Wing, inflight computing

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2015-Jun-26, at 10:44 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> On 2015-06-26 12:47 AM, Robert Ollerton wrote:
> ..
>> Much later, Jack was given a vip tour of the secret B2 factory and
>> presented with a model of the design in Lancaster CA before his death.
> 
> Yes, a famous story in the aviation world. Somebody had a lot of class.
> 
> The book has a picture of Jack with the B-2 design team.
> ..

> The book isn't clear on why the wings were dropped; it seems to have been a
> combination of DoD budget limitations, cost over-runs in the wing program,
> the loss of the two YB-49 prototypes in accidents, etc.

I have a recollection from a documentary I saw sometime ago that it was flight 
control issues, .. so why it had to wait for computers and the B2.
I was looking for that doc a couple days ago for this discussion but didn't 
find it, and instead found something saying it was because the competition had 
more effective insiders in Washington. So who knows without original 
refs/research.

Did hear the story of JN being shown the B2 before release, too.

RE: XH558 - was Re: using new technology etc

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ANDY HOLT
> Sent: 26 June 2015 08:54
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: XH558 - was Re: using new technology etc
> 
> From my local paper:
> 
> The last flying Vulcan bomber will be flying over the (non flying) Vulcan at
> Southend Airport on Sunday. It doesn't get much better than TWO Vulcans
> together - it's unique in fact - the Southend Vulcan bomber will be overflown 
> by
> XH558 (the last flying Vulcan) in a tribute to the V-Force in a mini-flying 
> display
> THIS Sunday! The local Vulcan will be open for visitors and cockpit tours all 
> day.

Not sure about the "unique" bit. XH558 is doing a tour of the country this 
weekend and flying over all the Vulcans around the country. I am going to 
Newark Air Museum tomorrow, where my dad is a volunteer, specifically for this 
event. They have a Vulcan there, which I believe has donated parts to XH558, as 
I am sure have others around the country.

Regards

Rob

Austin Goodwill computer works

[jwsmobile]

Does anyone have access to the museum that was at Austin Goodwill? It 
seems to be going out on ebay as we speak.  Also there is a bidder for 
the good stuff that has vacuumed up 90% of the stuff, so I'm smelling 
some sort of thing going one.


They have a PDP8/S and they just sold off a significant artifact related 
to that, which is what has me wondering.  I'm going to call and see if 
anyone has a story that way, but wondered if anyone here has any info too.


There are a lot of nice things going out which could have explanations 
as being recent donations, but not the 8/s artifact. It seems to be 
custom related to the 8/s.


thanks
Jim

Re: Austin Goodwill computer works

[Brendan Shanks]

Yep they started selling/giving away their collection few months ago:
http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=16729439

Brendan

On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 11:58 AM, jwsmobile  wrote:

>
> Does anyone have access to the museum that was at Austin Goodwill? It
> seems to be going out on ebay as we speak.  Also there is a bidder for the
> good stuff that has vacuumed up 90% of the stuff, so I'm smelling some sort
> of thing going one.
>
> They have a PDP8/S and they just sold off a significant artifact related
> to that, which is what has me wondering.  I'm going to call and see if
> anyone has a story that way, but wondered if anyone here has any info too.
>
> There are a lot of nice things going out which could have explanations as
> being recent donations, but not the 8/s artifact. It seems to be custom
> related to the 8/s.
>
> thanks
> Jim
>
>

Re: UNIBUS extension card/cable sets

[John Wallace]

[huge snippage for brevity, apologies for rubbish formatting]

I'm not 100% sure I'm right in what follows (it's been a long time) but 
improvements are welcome. It builds on much of what has already been said.

Termination has been covered by various contributors - termination reduces (but 
may not completely eliminate) reflections.

Reflections in a single segment setup (two boxes, one cable) are relatively 
simple to cope with in a setup from the Qbus era where things aren't 
particularly fast.

In a three box (two cable) setup my recollection is that the configuration 
rules require the cables to be of significantly different lengths, and the 
reason for this is to ensure that the two sets of reflections are timed 
signifcantly differently and canot make Bad Things happen by arriving at the 
same time as each other.

Consider the middle box (of 3) is driving a bus transition. Signals will 
propagate from the middle box to each of the ends. When the moving rope er 
sorry voltage transition reaches the end of the cable, it will be reflected to 
some extent. If the cable segments are both the same length(ish), the 
reflections will come back to the middle box at round about the same time, 
superimpose on each other, and potentially cause confusion. (Does that sound 
plausible?)

If the cable segments are of significantly different lengths then the 
reflections will arrive back at the middle at significantly different times and 
the reflections will be more manageable - less risk of Bad Things happening 
when they superpose.

Or something along those lines.

Anyway, hopefully the "different cable lengths so the reflection timings are 
different" will ring a few bells even if it's not actually right.

Have a lot of fun
John Wallace

Re: UNIBUS extension card/cable sets

[Paul Koning]

> On Jun 26, 2015, at 3:58 PM, John Wallace  wrote:
> 
> [huge snippage for brevity, apologies for rubbish formatting]
> 
> I'm not 100% sure I'm right in what follows (it's been a long time) but 
> improvements are welcome. It builds on much of what has already been said.
> 
> Termination has been covered by various contributors - termination reduces 
> (but may not completely eliminate) reflections.

More precisely: terminating a transmission line in its characteristic impedance 
eliminates the reflection.  Terminating it with something that differs from the 
characteristic impedance will produce a reflection whose magnitude and phase 
depends on the mismatch.  Open and short are extreme examples of mismatches, 
but any mismatch will produce a reflection.  

paul

Re: Austin Goodwill computer works

[jwsmobile]

That is pretty sad to hear.

The item is the notebook / diary detailing the restoration of their 
PDP8/s (or I think it is of theirs).  Undoubtedly donated by someone who 
may have thought it would remain there.  I suspect unless the items are 
going to organizations, they will show up soon on ebay.


The buyer in this case showed he had done 90% of his recent business all 
over items from there, and if you look at their queue it is easy to see why.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/221805321988 



I just hope it's not one of the psychos on ebay that one has to deal 
with with a lot of items, but it probably is.  I'm going to go back thru 
the AGCW feedback given to see what else they got, but I suspect its not 
a collector.


Any word where such items as the PDP8/s and such stand?  If the recent 
example of the Apple 1 donation is any indication the people that are 
doing the selling are probably not getting the best for their dispersion 
of the collection.  In the Apple case 200k is way under what it probably 
could have fetched, and whoever got it (and probably whoever sold it) 
make out like banditos.


thanks
Jim

On 6/26/2015 12:27 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote:
Yep they started selling/giving away their collection few months ago: 
http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=16729439


Brendan

On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 11:58 AM, jwsmobile > wrote:



Does anyone have access to the museum that was at Austin Goodwill?
It seems to be going out on ebay as we speak. Also there is a
bidder for the good stuff that has vacuumed up 90% of the stuff,
so I'm smelling some sort of thing going one.

They have a PDP8/S and they just sold off a significant artifact
related to that, which is what has me wondering. I'm going to call
and see if anyone has a story that way, but wondered if anyone
here has any info too.

There are a lot of nice things going out which could have
explanations as being recent donations, but not the 8/s artifact.
It seems to be custom related to the 8/s.

thanks
Jim

Re: Austin Goodwill computer works

[David Williams]

On 26/06/2015 22:45, jwsmobile wrote:


Any word where such items as the PDP8/s and such stand?  If the recent 
example of the Apple 1 donation is any indication the people that are 
doing the selling are probably not getting the best for their 
dispersion of the collection.  In the Apple case 200k is way under 
what it probably could have fetched, and whoever got it (and probably 
whoever sold it) make out like banditos.




Has anybody seen any evidence that this Apple 1 actually exists? I find 
it strange that no photo's of it have been published.

Re: Austin Goodwill computer works

[COURYHOUSE]

the buyer also trafficked in these areas

Computers/Tablets  & Networking > Vintage Computers & Mainframes 1 Seller 1 
<1h  Video Games  & Consoles > Other Video Games & Consoles 1 Seller 1 <1h  
Computers/Tablets & Networking > Keyboards & Keypads 1 Seller 1 <1h  
Musical  Instruments & Gear > Parts & Accessories 1 Seller 1 <1h  Video Games  
& 
Consoles > Video Game Consoles 1 Seller 1 <1h  Computers/Tablets & Networking 
> Other Vintage Computing 1 Seller 1 <1h  Computers/Tablets & Networking > 
Vintage Manuals &  Merchandise 1 Seller 1 1d 16h  Toys &  Hobbies > Space 
Toys 1 Seller 2 <1h  Consumer  Electronics > iPods & MP3 Players 1 Seller 1 
<1h  Consumer  Electronics > iPods & MP3 Players 1 Seller 1 <1h  Consumer  
Electronics > iPods & MP3 Players 1 Seller 1 <1h  Consumer  Electronics > iPods 
& MP3 Players 1 Seller 1 <1h  Consumer  Electronics > iPods & MP3 Players 1 
Seller 1 <1h  Consumer  Electronics > iPods & MP3 Players 1 Seller 1 <1h  
Consumer  Electronics > iPods & MP3 Players 1 Seller 1 <1h  Consumer  
Electronics > iPods & MP3 Players 1 Seller 1 <1h  Video Games  & Consoles > 
Video 
Game Consoles 1 Seller 1 <1h  Computers/Tablets & Networking > Mice, 
Trackballs &  Touchpads 1 Seller 1 <1h  Toys &  Hobbies > Electronic Learning 
Toys 1 
Seller 1 <1h  Consumer  Electronics > Internet & Media Streamers 1 Seller 1 
<1h  Computers/Tablets & Networking > Vintage Parts &  Accessories 1 Seller 
1 <1h  Musical  Instruments & Gear > Signal Processors/Rack Effects 1 
Seller 1 <1h  Health  & Beauty > Other Mobility & Disability 1 Seller 1 <1h  
Business  & Industrial > Point of Sale Equipment 1 Seller 1 <1h  
Computers/Tablets & Networking > Vintage Computers &  Mainframes 1 Seller 3 8h  
Computers/Tablets & Networking > Graphics Tablets/Boards  & Pens 1 Seller 1 <1h 
 
Computers/Tablets & Networking > Other Computer Software 1 Seller 1 <1h  
Computers/Tablets & Networking > Scanners 1 Seller 1 <1h  Consumer  Electronics 
> 
Vintage Calculators 1 Seller 1 <1h  Video Games  & Consoles > Controllers &  
Attachments
 
In a message dated 6/26/2015 2:45:35 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
j...@jwsss.com writes:

That is  pretty sad to hear.

The item is the notebook / diary detailing the  restoration of their 
PDP8/s (or I think it is of theirs).   Undoubtedly donated by someone who 
may have thought it would remain  there.  I suspect unless the items are 
going to organizations, they  will show up soon on ebay.

The buyer in this case showed he had done  90% of his recent business all 
over items from there, and if you look at  their queue it is easy to see 
why.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221805321988  


I  just hope it's not one of the psychos on ebay that one has to deal 
with  with a lot of items, but it probably is.  I'm going to go back thru  
the AGCW feedback given to see what else they got, but I suspect its not  
a collector.

Any word where such items as the PDP8/s and such  stand?  If the recent 
example of the Apple 1 donation is any  indication the people that are 
doing the selling are probably not getting  the best for their dispersion 
of the collection.  In the Apple case  200k is way under what it probably 
could have fetched, and whoever got it  (and probably whoever sold it) 
make out like  banditos.

thanks
Jim

On 6/26/2015 12:27 PM, Brendan Shanks  wrote:
> Yep they started selling/giving away their collection few  months ago: 
>  http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=16729439
>
>  Brendan
>
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 11:58 AM, jwsmobile   >  wrote:
>
>
> Does anyone have access to  the museum that was at Austin Goodwill?
> It seems to  be going out on ebay as we speak. Also there is a
>  bidder for the good stuff that has vacuumed up 90% of the stuff,
>   so I'm smelling some sort of thing going  one.
>
> They have a PDP8/S and they just sold  off a significant artifact
> related to that, which  is what has me wondering. I'm going to call
> and see  if anyone has a story that way, but wondered if anyone
>   here has any info too.
>
> There  are a lot of nice things going out which could have
>  explanations as being recent donations, but not the 8/s  artifact.
> It seems to be custom related to the  8/s.
>
> thanks
>  Jim
>
>

Re: AT&T terminal keyboards?

[Ken Seefried]

From: Ethan Dicks 
>I just picked up a couple of AT&T terminals, a 730+ and a 5620 "Blit"
>terminal.

Some people have *all* the luck.

>I read on one of the several FAQs that I can use an AT&T 4410 terminal
>keyboard with the 730+.

It's been a long time, but I'm pretty sure the keyboard is the same across
the AT&T 600 & 700 series terminal lines.  I'm pretty sure the 4410 is the
same.

>I've found the trove of old Blit apps, etc. and see how tortuous the
>path is to get layers working, etc.,

Not sure if anyone has tried to build it in a decade or so, but it did at
one time build on BSD 4.x.  Obviously SVr3 and SVr4 are easier.  No idea
about Linux, but I suspect it would be painful.

>but for now, I've got a couple
>old terminals that are entirely unlike any of the DEC terminals >I have,
so that by itself is cool.

Rub it in :-)

KJ

Re: OT: learner kits (and NopeCraft)

[Tapley, Mark]

All,
thanks for all input! Many useful things to follow up here. Trying to 
summarize and including a bit more follow-up research. URL’s valid as of June 
30, 2015, if you are reading this in the archive; folks suggesting good ideas 
referenced by name, search nearby here in the archive for contact info. 
Minecraft gets a special category because a) my son is already addicted and b) 
I have the suspicion that a *lot* of kids are in his category in that way. It 
was pointed out quite correctly (Toby Thain) that Minecraft is a *horrible* way 
to learn physics; my son and I calculated that his character could run and jump 
while carrying (in its pockets, apparently) a mass equivalent to approximately 
7 Iowa-class battleships.

“Hands-on” electronics

Raspberry Pi Gertboard interface. Servo motor interface in particular 
will add real-world interest. (Mark J. Blair)

http://www.newark.com/gertboard/gertboard/atmega328-assembled-gertboard/dp/46W9829

LittleBits kits for plug-together components, ex-Radio Shack and 
available on eBay (Steve Algernon) 

http://littlebits.cc

Modern CMOS should be BE series and hence ESD-protected. CMOS is more 
tolerant of supply voltage variation. (Dave G4UGM)
74LSxx TTL should generally be capable of replacing standard TTL. TTL 
is generally faster than CMOS, TTL is more tolerant of connecting two arguing 
outputs together. 74ALS series is CMOS internal but with TTL interfaces. (Dave 
G4UGM, Mouse)
CMOS 4000 series is very static-sensitive; use a wrist strap and bench 
pad if you work much with this. (wulfman)

http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/logic/gate-products.page#p1512=CD4000&o7=&o4=
http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c151/P30.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/scyb004b/scyb004b.pdf
http://eeshop.unl.edu/pdf/CD4000.pdf
http://www.skot9000.com/ttl/

Arduino kits are well-established and have many options of kits, 
sensors, projects, etc. (Dave G4UGM)
Arduino Experimenter’s Kit incl. breadboard, LED’s, jumpers, etc. Note 
Raspberry Pi pins are 3.3V and need voltage clamps on inputs from TTL (Brent 
Hilpert)

http://www.elektor.com/arduino-sensor-kit
http://www.adafruit.com/products/170

It’s possible to find packaged piles of components. Projects and 
manuals are tougher.

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2129115&catalogId=10001&CID=MERCH



Emulators

PDP-8 or PDP-11 recommended   (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)

http://fms.komkon.org/comp/sys/DEC.html
http://www.vandermark.ch/pdp8/index.php?n=PDP8.Emulator
http://www.bernhard-baehr.de/pdp8e/pdp8e.html


Cardiac emulator available as a web page, complete with examples and 
instructions. (Brian L. Stuart):

https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/museum/cardiac.html
https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/museum/cardsim.html


CAS/mathematics

Raspberry Pi has Mathematica (included?) for Raspbian. This is a cheap 
way to get a running Mathematica. (Douglas Taylor)
https://www.raspberrypi.org/mathematica-10/
http://www.wolfram.com/raspberry-pi/

Beaglebone Black is rumored to have Mathematica in work

http://community.wolfram.com/groups/-/m/t/386736

Maple (similar to mathematica)

http://www.maplesoft.com/products/maple/

Open-source Maxima (based on MacSyma from MIT) for multiple platforms.

http://maxima.sourceforge.net

TI NSpire calculators include a CAS descended from muMath/muSimp. TI 
offers a calculator emulation which runs on Win/Mac:

https://education.ti.com/en/us/software/details/en/36BE84F974E940C78502AA47492887AB/ti-nspirecxcas_pc_full
https://education.ti.com/en/us/products/computer_software/ti-nspire-software/ti-nspire-student-software/tabs/overview#tab=overview



Minecraft/world simulation games

Minecraft V.1.4.8 should run Eloraam's RedPower 2 which includes 6502 
and FORTH interpreter 

http://ftbwiki.org/RedPower_2

Direwolf20 modpack (part of the Feed the Beast launcher) has Immibis' 
RedLogic, which is redstone wiring and logic gates; as well as dan200’s 
ComputerCraft which gives you a Lua programmable computer (and peripherals) 
that can do all sorts of neat things. (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmZHDI72dVI
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaiPn4ewcbkHYflo2jl0OuNaHK6Mj-koG
http://luacraft.com

“Giant Video of FORTH-ness”(Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)

https://youtu.be/ARO1uVRSLJQ

Minecraft/Pi/interaction kit is Kickstarted, orderable. The kit 
includes a Raspberry Pi 2 and components to stick together. (Steve Algernon)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/withpiper/piper-a-minecraft-toolbox-for-budding-engineers

Factorio apparently has some serious logic systems (William Donzelli)

https://www.factorio.com


Hopefully this is usef

Re: AT&T terminal keyboards?

[Ethan Dicks]

On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 9:59 PM, Ken Seefried  wrote:
> From: Ethan Dicks 
>>I just picked up a couple of AT&T terminals, a 730+ and a 5620 "Blit"
>>terminal.
>
> Some people have *all* the luck.

I used to work at Bell Labs/Lucent/Western Electric in Columbus.
Someone else who worked there that I still have lunch with regularly
was cleaning out his garage...

>>I read on one of the several FAQs that I can use an AT&T 4410 terminal
>>keyboard with the 730+.
>
> It's been a long time, but I'm pretty sure the keyboard is the same across
> the AT&T 600 & 700 series terminal lines.  I'm pretty sure the 4410 is the
> same.

That's what I've been reading.  I just don't have anything remotely of the sort.

> Not sure if anyone has tried to build it in a decade or so, but it did at
> one time build on BSD 4.x.  Obviously SVr3 and SVr4 are easier.  No idea
> about Linux, but I suspect it would be painful.

I wasn't going to force it onto Linux... I am pretty sure I have all
the discs for Interactive UNIX for the 386/486 hanging around, though.
That should be SYSVish and not so painful.

>>but for now, I've got a couple
>>old terminals that are entirely unlike any of the DEC terminals I have,
> so that by itself is cool.
>
> Rub it in :-)

If you want to buy a DEC terminal and happen to be going to VCFmw at
the end of August, I would bring one out.  They are somewhat heavy to
ship and need a very large box.

-ethan

Re: OT: learner kits (and NopeCraft)

[Tapley, Mark]

All,
thanks for all input! Many useful things to follow up here. Trying to 
summarize and including a bit more follow-up research. URL’s valid as of June 
30, 2015, if you are reading this in the archive; folks suggesting good ideas 
referenced by name, search nearby here in the archive for contact info. 
Minecraft gets a special category because a) my son is already addicted and b) 
I have the suspicion that a *lot* of kids are in his category in that way. It 
was pointed out quite correctly (Toby Thain) that Minecraft is a *horrible* way 
to learn physics; my son and I calculated that his character could run and jump 
while carrying (in its pockets, apparently) a mass equivalent to approximately 
7 Iowa-class battleships.

“Hands-on” electronics

Raspberry Pi Gertboard interface. Servo motor interface in particular 
will add real-world interest. (Mark J. Blair)

http://www.newark.com/gertboard/gertboard/atmega328-assembled-gertboard/dp/46W9829

LittleBits kits for plug-together components, ex-Radio Shack and 
available on eBay (Steve Algernon) 

http://littlebits.cc

Modern CMOS should be BE series and hence ESD-protected. CMOS is more 
tolerant of supply voltage variation. (Dave G4UGM)
74LSxx TTL should generally be capable of replacing standard TTL. TTL 
is generally faster than CMOS, TTL is more tolerant of connecting two arguing 
outputs together. 74ALS series is CMOS internal but with TTL interfaces. (Dave 
G4UGM, Mouse)
CMOS 4000 series is very static-sensitive; use a wrist strap and bench 
pad if you work much with this. (wulfman)

http://www.ti.com/lsds/ti/logic/gate-products.page#p1512=CD4000&o7=&o4=
http://www.jameco.com/Jameco/catalogs/c151/P30.pdf
http://www.ti.com/lit/ml/scyb004b/scyb004b.pdf
http://eeshop.unl.edu/pdf/CD4000.pdf
http://www.skot9000.com/ttl/

Arduino kits are well-established and have many options of kits, 
sensors, projects, etc. (Dave G4UGM)
Arduino Experimenter’s Kit incl. breadboard, LED’s, jumpers, etc. Note 
Raspberry Pi pins are 3.3V and need voltage clamps on inputs from TTL (Brent 
Hilpert)

http://www.elektor.com/arduino-sensor-kit
http://www.adafruit.com/products/170

It’s possible to find packaged piles of components. Projects and 
manuals are tougher.

http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&productId=2129115&catalogId=10001&CID=MERCH



Emulators

PDP-8 or PDP-11 recommended   (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)

http://fms.komkon.org/comp/sys/DEC.html
http://www.vandermark.ch/pdp8/index.php?n=PDP8.Emulator
http://www.bernhard-baehr.de/pdp8e/pdp8e.html


Cardiac emulator available as a web page, complete with examples and 
instructions. (Brian L. Stuart):

https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/museum/cardiac.html
https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/museum/cardsim.html


CAS/mathematics

Raspberry Pi has Mathematica (included?) for Raspbian. This is a cheap 
way to get a running Mathematica. (Douglas Taylor)
https://www.raspberrypi.org/mathematica-10/
http://www.wolfram.com/raspberry-pi/

Beaglebone Black is rumored to have Mathematica in work

http://community.wolfram.com/groups/-/m/t/386736

Maple (similar to mathematica)

http://www.maplesoft.com/products/maple/

Open-source Maxima (based on MacSyma from MIT) for multiple platforms.

http://maxima.sourceforge.net

TI NSpire calculators include a CAS descended from muMath/muSimp. TI 
offers a calculator emulation which runs on Win/Mac:

https://education.ti.com/en/us/software/details/en/36BE84F974E940C78502AA47492887AB/ti-nspirecxcas_pc_full
https://education.ti.com/en/us/products/computer_software/ti-nspire-software/ti-nspire-student-software/tabs/overview#tab=overview



Minecraft/world simulation games

Minecraft V.1.4.8 should run Eloraam's RedPower 2 which includes 6502 
and FORTH interpreter 

http://ftbwiki.org/RedPower_2

Direwolf20 modpack (part of the Feed the Beast launcher) has Immibis' 
RedLogic, which is redstone wiring and logic gates; as well as dan200’s 
ComputerCraft which gives you a Lua programmable computer (and peripherals) 
that can do all sorts of neat things. (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmZHDI72dVI
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLaiPn4ewcbkHYflo2jl0OuNaHK6Mj-koG
http://luacraft.com

“Giant Video of FORTH-ness”(Christian Gauger-Cosgrove)

https://youtu.be/ARO1uVRSLJQ

Minecraft/Pi/interaction kit is Kickstarted, orderable. The kit 
includes a Raspberry Pi 2 and components to stick together. (Steve Algernon)

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/withpiper/piper-a-minecraft-toolbox-for-budding-engineers

Factorio apparently has some serious logic systems (William Donzelli)

https://www.factorio.com


Hopefully this is usef

VCF Midwest registration is open!

[Jason T]

We're just about at the two-month point to the Vintage Computer
Festival Midwest, so now we need to get people their tables and
speaking slots.  If you need one or both of those, there's a fancy(?)
new form for you to fill out here:

http://vcfmw.org/signup.html

If you already talked to/emailed me about a table, please take a
moment to fill out the form anyway.  This will be a huge help in
getting all of our info in one place.

If you're normally on the ECCC/Commodore side, please use this form
also.  VCF is handling reservations for both sides of the show this
year.

If I don't hear from you via this form, it may be difficult or
impossible to place you at the show.  We have a new venue this year
and (we hope) much greater attendance.  This equals a less predictable
room layout.

Thank you and we'll see you in August!

-j


Some answers to recent FAQs:

- Speaking topics are pretty flexible - we have generally had mostly
product/software announcements and demos in the past and we'd like to
diversify a bit (while still including those, of course.)  Your
restoration saga, tales from the computer revolution, something you're
an expert on/at, personal experience in early industry or hobbyist
clubs, how you're inspiring the next generation, your 'leet hardware
hacks...whatever you have, let us know!

- Speaking slots are generally 30 minutes long but if you have a
particularly juicy topic, we can work to find extra time.

- Talks will be videoed and put on YouTube, unless you ask us not to

- Tables are a mix of 6' or 8' by ~30".  If you have a precise amount
on linear table inches in mind, let us know in the topic box and we'll
get in touch and/or reserve a specific size.

- Hotel rooms are still available at the block rate.  Use the link on
the main page.  If the show rate is not shown, perhaps our block was
filled.  Contact me and I will get it extended, if possible (we've had
to do it twice already.)

Re: Austin Goodwill computer works

[William Maddox]

Based on a hunch, I matched the feedback score of the winner of the restoraton 
log to a known ebay buyer.  I don't want to say who he is, but he's a serious 
vintage collector who happens to have a passionate interest, deep pockets, and 
and is a visible member of the community likely known by a few list members.  
The 8/S would be in good hands if he snags it too.

 --Bill
  From: jwsmobile 
 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts  
 Sent: Friday, June 26, 2015 2:45 PM
 Subject: Re: Austin Goodwill computer works
   
That is pretty sad to hear.

The item is the notebook / diary detailing the restoration of their 
PDP8/s (or I think it is of theirs).  Undoubtedly donated by someone who 
may have thought it would remain there.  I suspect unless the items are 
going to organizations, they will show up soon on ebay.

The buyer in this case showed he had done 90% of his recent business all 
over items from there, and if you look at their queue it is easy to see why.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221805321988 


I just hope it's not one of the psychos on ebay that one has to deal 
with with a lot of items, but it probably is.  I'm going to go back thru 
the AGCW feedback given to see what else they got, but I suspect its not 
a collector.

Any word where such items as the PDP8/s and such stand?  If the recent 
example of the Apple 1 donation is any indication the people that are 
doing the selling are probably not getting the best for their dispersion 
of the collection.  In the Apple case 200k is way under what it probably 
could have fetched, and whoever got it (and probably whoever sold it) 
make out like banditos.

thanks
Jim

On 6/26/2015 12:27 PM, Brendan Shanks wrote:
> Yep they started selling/giving away their collection few months ago: 
> http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=16729439
>
> Brendan
>
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 11:58 AM, jwsmobile  > wrote:


>
>
>    Does anyone have access to the museum that was at Austin Goodwill?
>    It seems to be going out on ebay as we speak. Also there is a
>    bidder for the good stuff that has vacuumed up 90% of the stuff,
>    so I'm smelling some sort of thing going one.
>
>    They have a PDP8/S and they just sold off a significant artifact
>    related to that, which is what has me wondering. I'm going to call
>    and see if anyone has a story that way, but wondered if anyone
>    here has any info too.
>
>    There are a lot of nice things going out which could have
>    explanations as being recent donations, but not the 8/s artifact.
>    It seems to be custom related to the 8/s.
>
>    thanks
>    Jim
>
>

Re: Austin Goodwill computer works

[Pontus Pihlgren]

I had a private conversation with Stephen(who started the 
nekochan thread) and he said that some things have gone back to 
donors and that they will keep some select items. The 8/s is one 
of the machines that they are keeping.

I get the imprwssion that it's a rather controlled an 
responsible shutdown.

/P

On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 12:27:59PM -0700, Brendan Shanks wrote:
> Yep they started selling/giving away their collection few months ago:
> http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?t=16729439
> 
> Brendan
> 
> On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 11:58 AM, jwsmobile  wrote:
> 
> >
> > Does anyone have access to the museum that was at Austin Goodwill? It
> > seems to be going out on ebay as we speak.  Also there is a bidder for the
> > good stuff that has vacuumed up 90% of the stuff, so I'm smelling some sort
> > of thing going one.
> >
> > They have a PDP8/S and they just sold off a significant artifact related
> > to that, which is what has me wondering.  I'm going to call and see if
> > anyone has a story that way, but wondered if anyone here has any info too.
> >
> > There are a lot of nice things going out which could have explanations as
> > being recent donations, but not the 8/s artifact. It seems to be custom
> > related to the 8/s.
> >
> > thanks
> > Jim
> >
> >

Re: Austin Goodwill computer works

[jwsmobile]

On 6/26/2015 11:46 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

I had a private conversation with Stephen(who started the
nekochan thread) and he said that some things have gone back to
donors and that they will keep some select items. The 8/s is one
of the machines that they are keeping.

I get the imprwssion that it's a rather controlled an
responsible shutdown.

/P
If they are retaining the PDP 8/S they just dumped the original history 
of the restoration in the auction I posted.  not so good.


I would be open to suggestions that his is not a unique artifact, given 
the appearance of the cover.  But that speculation is contradicted by 
the fact that the pages are all in individual slip covers.  Again if the 
8/s went somewhere this should have gone with it.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/221805321988


thanks
Jim