Re: Front Panel Tech Note 2

[Pontus Pihlgren]

Hi Rod

I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner, you are not forgotten. It is just 
that my second 8/e was much harder to reach than I had hoped for. (I'm 
shipping out a set of computers that are in the way).

DOH! I just recalled.. I have pictures online, these are my machines:

Type A:
http://www.pdp8.se/bild/PDP8e_front.jpg

Type B:
http://www.pdp8.se/slask/front_paneler/pdp8e_typeb.jpg

As you see, the Type A, which I believe is older, has straight switch 
position lines, no dividers and a "box" arround the switch.

The Type B has angled switch position lines, dividers, but no box 
arround the switch.

Type B has noticably less saturated colors.

I can take better pictures of the Type B panel which is accessible, but 
I'm not sure it will help.

Regards,
Ppntus

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:46:47PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:
>  Hi Pontus
>   Please define which two  the colours differ between.
>   Is the current version with the vertical switch position correct?
>   If that is the case then the other one with angled switch position
>   lines and dividers between groups of lamps must differ.
> 
>  The two colours are referred to as Amber and Terra Cotta.
>  If they differ then they must have different names.
> 
> As I am a bit colour blind the matching is done by our two
> screen printing
> ladies who are art graduates and qualified colourists.
>(in general females have better colour vision)
> 
>  If you have an example of a Type B ( angled switch position
> lines and dividers)
>  that shows the difference in colour I'd really like a copy
> before we ship any type B
> 
> Rod
> 
> 
> On 11/06/2015 08:01, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
> >The color is quite different between the two. I can take comparative
> >photos, but I suppose it will be quite meaningless as a guide.
> >
> >/P
> >
> >On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 06:47:25AM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> >>Asof now I know of two variations
> >>
> >> 1,Selector switch positions 1 and 6  lines can be vertical
> >>or at an angle to the vertical
> >>
> >> 2,Vertical divider between groups of three lamps
> >>
> >>Anybody seen an 8/e panel with anything else?
> >>
> >>Rod
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> 

Re: Front Panel Tech Note 2

[Rod Smallwood]

Hello Pontus.
  Thank you for the information.
Your two machines (colour sat apart) do fall into my A and B Types quite 
well


Seeing the one with the one with the missing toggle switches reminds me 
that I have

an enquiry out re getting some made.

I dont know if I have asked you before ( I have a serial brain in a 
parallel world)  but I'm looking for some  boards to get my 8/e

running.

 M833
M-8340
M-8341
M-8300

I alreay have an M-8310 and a 549057 (Keys and lamps) along with core 
and I/o



Regards

Rod


On 15/06/2015 08:10, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

Hi Rod

I'm sorry I haven't replied sooner, you are not forgotten. It is just
that my second 8/e was much harder to reach than I had hoped for. (I'm
shipping out a set of computers that are in the way).

DOH! I just recalled.. I have pictures online, these are my machines:

Type A:
http://www.pdp8.se/bild/PDP8e_front.jpg

Type B:
http://www.pdp8.se/slask/front_paneler/pdp8e_typeb.jpg

As you see, the Type A, which I believe is older, has straight switch
position lines, no dividers and a "box" arround the switch.

The Type B has angled switch position lines, dividers, but no box
arround the switch.

Type B has noticably less saturated colors.

I can take better pictures of the Type B panel which is accessible, but
I'm not sure it will help.

Regards,
Ppntus

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 10:46:47PM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:

  Hi Pontus
   Please define which two  the colours differ between.
   Is the current version with the vertical switch position correct?
   If that is the case then the other one with angled switch position
   lines and dividers between groups of lamps must differ.

  The two colours are referred to as Amber and Terra Cotta.
  If they differ then they must have different names.

 As I am a bit colour blind the matching is done by our two
screen printing
 ladies who are art graduates and qualified colourists.
(in general females have better colour vision)

  If you have an example of a Type B ( angled switch position
lines and dividers)
  that shows the difference in colour I'd really like a copy
before we ship any type B

 Rod


On 11/06/2015 08:01, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

The color is quite different between the two. I can take comparative
photos, but I suppose it will be quite meaningless as a guide.

/P

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 06:47:25AM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:

Asof now I know of two variations

 1,Selector switch positions 1 and 6  lines can be vertical
or at an angle to the vertical

 2,Vertical divider between groups of three lamps

Anybody seen an 8/e panel with anything else?

Rod

Re: Front Panel Tech Note 2

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 08:54:08AM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:
> 
> Seeing the one with the one with the missing toggle switches reminds 
> me that I have an enquiry out re getting some made.

I believe many would appreciate that. I'm lucky though and have spares 
enough for my machine.


> I dont know if I have asked you before ( I have a serial brain in a
> parallel world)  but I'm looking for some  boards to get my 8/e
> running.
> 
>  M833
> M-8340
> M-8341
> M-8300

Well, yes and no. I have spares, but I'm uncertain of the condition of 
my machines. At this point it would be a bad idea to sell them.

/P

Intel MDS-740 hard disk documentation wanted

[Eric Smith]

Does anyone have documentation for the Intel MDS-740 hard disk system
for use with the MDS and Series II, Series III development systems?
The drive had one fixed and one removable platter, the removable being
a 12-sector 5440-style cartridge. The drive may have been a CDC 9427H,
or something similar.  The controller was two Multibus boards, a 3000
bit-slice based channel board, and a drive interface board. (Similar
organization to the two-board floppy controllers.)

I am mostly looking for the schematics and programming information,
though if anyone has an actual controller board (or even just the
channel board), a dump of the microcode would be useful.

The documentation I'm looking for might or might not be contained in
the "Model 740 Hard Disk Subsystem Operation and Checkout" manual,
order number 9800943A.

Note that this is *entirely* different than the iMDX 750 winchester
disk subsystem.  The 740 was supported by plain ISIS-II 4.x, while the
iMDS 750 used a variant of the iSBC 215 controller, and required a
special ISIS-II(W).

Thanks!
Eric

Re: Front Panel Tech Note 2

[Rod Smallwood]

Thats OK
Its always worth asking.

One of the reasons for my efforts to make PDP parts is to produce spares 
using modern

components to help replica builders and restorers.
In addition to the toggle switches I am trying to see if its possible to 
reproduce the bezel

in a non-metal Some kind  of structural polymer or maybe cast resin.

Regards

Rod



On 15/06/2015 09:07, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 08:54:08AM +0100, Rod Smallwood wrote:

Seeing the one with the one with the missing toggle switches reminds
me that I have an enquiry out re getting some made.

I believe many would appreciate that. I'm lucky though and have spares
enough for my machine.



I dont know if I have asked you before ( I have a serial brain in a
parallel world)  but I'm looking for some  boards to get my 8/e
running.

  M833
 M-8340
 M-8341
 M-8300

Well, yes and no. I have spares, but I'm uncertain of the condition of
my machines. At this point it would be a bad idea to sell them.

/P

Re: SS10 console settings

[Sean Caron]

The default is 9600/8/N/1 but maybe someone messed with the default comms
parameters in OpenFirmware; have you just tried it at a bunch of different
baud rates on your terminal [emulator]? I believe sending a BREAK on ttya
is equivalent to the Stop-A from the graphics head but it's been a while
... there might also be an equivalent for Stop-D. I would suspect it's more
likely to be just in a different baud rate, than to have the number of data
bits, parity, etc modified ... but you never know ... just where I'd begin
... If you have an old serial protocol analyzer sitting around, it should
be able to figure it out pretty quickly.

Have you tried taking a peek through the service manual? It might have some
other suggestions.

The Sparc 10 was a great little machine in its day ... rock solid ... it
made an excellent, compact, light-duty server; I used to have a ton of them!

Best,

Sean


On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 11:03 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:

>
> > On Jun 14, 2015, at 01:49, Mike Ross  wrote:
> >
> > I have *only* the serial console. No working keyboard/mouse/screen.
>
> If all else fails, do you have the means to look at the serial line with
> an oscilloscope? Figuring out the port parameters that way might be easier
> than trying every combination of baud, word length, parity, etc.
>
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

RE: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[tony duell]

> The ripple on the power supplies is still going lower as we put more run
> time on the system. The power supplies are now within spec.

Capacitors reforming naturally?

> Warren made an Arduino based programmable baud rate generator that works
> for both serial ports. After some debugging, it works nicely.

I am sorry, but I find that obscene!. To use more components than the rest of 
the machine
(probably) just for the baud rate clock is ridiculous. IMHO if you are going to 
modify a 
vintage machine, particularly one as rare as a PDP12, you should use the 
components 
that were available at the time. It's not as if a programmable buad rate 
generator is hard
to make from TTL either. In fact given the Arduino thing needed 'some 
debugging' it might 
well have taken less time to do it in hardware. 

-tony

Re: SS10 console settings

[r.stricklin]

On Jun 14, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Mike Ross wrote:

> I'm trying to resurrect a couple of Sparcstation 10 systems. Is there
> anything 'funny' about the serial console settings on SS10 hardware? I
> thought they always defaulted to 9600-n-8-1, but I get voluminous
> gobbledygook at that, and at every other baud rate I've tried.

The SunOS 4 (and earlier) terminal driver sets the high bit. If you can see the 
OBP and some of the early kernel messages, then it switches to junk, this is 
your problem. The simplest thing to do is set your terminal emulator for "strip 
high bit".

ok
bear.
 
-- 
until further notice

RE: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM (tony duell)

[tony duell]

>
> Tony, thank you for your offer to supply replacement M452 Variable Clock
> modules for the console. We already have one jumpered for 110 baud for the
> Teletype. The other two M452 modules should be jumpered for 9600 baud and
> 38400 baud. The second serial port uses a M405 Crystal Clock module with a

Do you want 3 separate modules, or one switchable, or what?

> different pinout and clock outputs than the M452. We don't have any of
> these modules, so the three that we need should be jumpered for 110 baud,
> 9600 baud, and 38400 baud. The shipping address for the RICM is on the WWW
> page.

Hang on. I thought the M405 was just a crystal oscillator without a divider. Are
you sure there is no extra division on other modules? 110Hz is very slow for
a crystal oscillator, after all.

-tony

RE: SS10 console settings

[tony duell]

> 
> How in hell a *cable* can result in garbage beats me. I would expect
> data, or no data - not garbage data...

Two things spring to mind :

1) Open-circuit signal ground, with the ground therefore completed by mains 
earth. I had a nasty
version of that years ago, the system would work with a VT100 (at lower baud 
rates), but not at all
with my Tandy M100 laptop. 

2) Too much stray capacitance. Given a sensible output impedance on the driver 
(and there is a 
specification for this), this will round off the pulses, make narrow pulses too 
small, and so on. This
is the more likely cause I think. How long was the defective cable?

-tony

SS10 console settings

[Mike Ross]

Folks,

I'm trying to resurrect a couple of Sparcstation 10 systems. Is there
anything 'funny' about the serial console settings on SS10 hardware? I
thought they always defaulted to 9600-n-8-1, but I get voluminous
gobbledygook at that, and at every other baud rate I've tried.

Both systems behave identically, so I can't assume SS10 settings are
wrong. And I *am* getting data, so I don't see how it can be the
cabling. Something strange about the terminal emulation mode required
maybe?

Thanks

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: SS10 console settings

[r.stricklin]

On Jun 14, 2015, at 1:02 AM, Mike Ross wrote:

> I can't even see the hardware messages at power-on; just garbage - on both
> systems, at every baud rate I've tried on the emulator. Nowhere near
> booting OS.

If you hold down STOP-D while powering on, the system will go into diag mode. 
It'll show you extended diagnostics on the serial port, using 9600 8N1. This 
may give you extra information about the nature of your problem.

I haven't double checked that the serial port parameters do reset in this mode, 
but several other important things for sure do.


ok
bear.

-- 
until further notice

Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 14, 2015, at 06:53, Michael Thompson  
> wrote:
> 
> Dave Tumey sent us a new rubber hammer for the Teletype. This is the part
> that pushes the print drum against the ribbon and paper to print. These are
> newly molded parts that have not been available for decades. Works very
> nicely.

I should order one, too. I'm presently using the rubber tubing over the hammer 
kludge.

> The donor dropped off the work table that goes in front of the PDP-12. We
> need to loosen the rusted feet so it will fit under the front panel.

That sounds like a good excuse for more pictures!

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: SS10 console settings

[Mike Ross]

I have *only* the serial console. No working keyboard/mouse/screen.

Mike

On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 8:45 PM, r.stricklin  wrote:
>
> On Jun 14, 2015, at 1:02 AM, Mike Ross wrote:
>
>> I can't even see the hardware messages at power-on; just garbage - on both
>> systems, at every baud rate I've tried on the emulator. Nowhere near
>> booting OS.
>
> If you hold down STOP-D while powering on, the system will go into diag mode. 
> It'll show you extended diagnostics on the serial port, using 9600 8N1. This 
> may give you extra information about the nature of your problem.
>
> I haven't double checked that the serial port parameters do reset in this 
> mode, but several other important things for sure do.
>
>
> ok
> bear.
>
> --
> until further notice
>



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Michael Thompson]

Dave Tumey sent us a new rubber hammer for the Teletype. This is the part
that pushes the print drum against the ribbon and paper to print. These are
newly molded parts that have not been available for decades. Works very
nicely.

The ripple on the power supplies is still going lower as we put more run
time on the system. The power supplies are now within spec.

Warren wrote a better memory checkerboard program that shows the bits that
were being picked up or dropped in the MQ register. We tried adjusting the
STROBE FIELD 0 delay about +/- 100nS, but there was no setting that
resulted in completely working memory. Changing the delay did change the
location and number of bits that were picked up or dropped. Since the
failing addresses were all above 1000 we tried replacing the G221 modules
in slots C07 and C08. There was no change. We suspect that we have a
problem in the inhibit circuits.

Warren made an Arduino based programmable baud rate generator that works
for both serial ports. After some debugging, it works nicely.

The donor dropped off the work table that goes in front of the PDP-12. We
need to loosen the rusted feet so it will fit under the front panel.

-- 
Michael Thompson

Re: SS10 console settings

[Mike Ross]

I can't even see the hardware messages at power-on; just garbage - on both
systems, at every baud rate I've tried on the emulator. Nowhere near
booting OS.
On Jun 14, 2015 7:56 PM, "r.stricklin"  wrote:

>
> On Jun 14, 2015, at 12:05 AM, Mike Ross wrote:
>
> > I'm trying to resurrect a couple of Sparcstation 10 systems. Is there
> > anything 'funny' about the serial console settings on SS10 hardware? I
> > thought they always defaulted to 9600-n-8-1, but I get voluminous
> > gobbledygook at that, and at every other baud rate I've tried.
>
> The SunOS 4 (and earlier) terminal driver sets the high bit. If you can
> see the OBP and some of the early kernel messages, then it switches to
> junk, this is your problem. The simplest thing to do is set your terminal
> emulator for "strip high bit".
>
> ok
> bear.
>
> --
> until further notice
>
>

Re: SS10 console settings

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 14, 2015, at 01:49, Mike Ross  wrote:
> 
> I have *only* the serial console. No working keyboard/mouse/screen.

If all else fails, do you have the means to look at the serial line with an 
oscilloscope? Figuring out the port parameters that way might be easier than 
trying every combination of baud, word length, parity, etc.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Simon Claessen]

as long as it is done in a way that it can be restored to its original, i have no problems in using newer technology in older machines. we have a alix sbc build into our tek 4002a 
for demonstrational purpouses, all done without damaging or altering the original machine.


On 14-06-15 17:25, tony duell wrote:



The ripple on the power supplies is still going lower as we put more run
time on the system. The power supplies are now within spec.


Capacitors reforming naturally?


Warren made an Arduino based programmable baud rate generator that works
for both serial ports. After some debugging, it works nicely.


I am sorry, but I find that obscene!. To use more components than the rest of 
the machine
(probably) just for the baud rate clock is ridiculous. IMHO if you are going to 
modify a
vintage machine, particularly one as rare as a PDP12, you should use the 
components
that were available at the time. It's not as if a programmable buad rate 
generator is hard
to make from TTL either. In fact given the Arduino thing needed 'some 
debugging' it might
well have taken less time to do it in hardware.

-tony



--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl

RE: SS10 console settings

[tony duell]

> The rear DB25 serial connector is an A & B serial port combined.
> 
> Sun had/sold a special Y-splitter cable to use for the combined port.

The RS232 specification allows for 2 serial channels on the DB25 connector. Most
machines only use the primary channel. and Sun were sensible enough to wire 
their
'2 ports on one connector' so that port A uses the primary channel pins and 
port B
uses the 'back channel'. This means that if you plug a normal, minimally-wired
serial cable in (say an adapter to a PC DE9 port) you connect to port A. You 
only
need the splitter cable if you want to use port B

-tony

RE: SS10 console settings

[tony duell]

> I'm trying to resurrect a couple of Sparcstation 10 systems. Is there
> anything 'funny' about the serial console settings on SS10 hardware? I
> thought they always defaulted to 9600-n-8-1, but I get voluminous
> gobbledygook at that, and at every other baud rate I've tried.
> 
> Both systems behave identically, so I can't assume SS10 settings are
> wrong. And I *am* getting data, so I don't see how it can be the
> cabling. Something strange about the terminal emulation mode required
> maybe?

Did they both come from the same place? It is possible (I guess) that 
parameters were changed to meet a local 'standard', and thus both
machines are configured identically, just not the normal way.

>From the FAQ I've looked at, the serial port is a DB25 with the 'A' 
port on on the primary channel and the 'B' port on the back channel.
If so, at least you've not got the classic problem of wiring up an 
RS422 port and using the wrong data pin (and thus getting inverted
data, including the framing bits, which really confuses the receiver).

I don't know if it's implemented here, but the FAQ suggests that pin 24
will carry a baud rate clock. Have you tried a 'scope there? If so, what do
you see, and what frequency?

-tony

Re: SS10 console settings

[Sean Caron]

You never know ... I once had a network cable that would cause SS10s to
crash intermittently and refuse to boot. It was pretty consistent ... it
would fail out pretty much any unit I put in the position ... Finally I
ripped all the cabling out and started from fresh and ... the machine
plodded on as if nothing were wrong in the first place. Try to figure that
one out :O The bad cable even brought the link up!

Best,

Sean


On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:28 PM, Mike Ross  wrote:

> (Both boxes are running Linux; one is the host for my SIMH TOPS-10
> system, the other for KLH TOPS-20. Now I have to figure out how to
> tickle them into giving a serial port login; it seems I'd forgotten
> the last time I set them up they must have been configured to go
> straight into X, so now the boot ends with...
>
> Master Resource Control: runlevel 5 has been reached
> Skipped services in runlevel 5:  personal-firewall.initial
> personal-firewall.final
> INIT: Id "1" respawning too fast: disabled for 5 minutes
> INIT: Id "2" respawning too fast: disabled for 5 minutes
>
> (repeat indefinitely)
>
> rather than a login prompt! Grrr... one thing after another!
> Thanks for help.)
>
> Mike
>
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Mike Ross  wrote:
> > Sorry, didn't notice I'd replied to an email rather than the list.
> > From last night:
> >
> > OK I'll have to get to the bottom of this at some point, but it seems
> > it WAS the cable! Tried another one and, at 9600
> >
> > $   WARNING : No Keyboard Detected! $
> > MMU Context Table Reg Test
> > MMU Context Register Test
> > MMU TLB Bit Pattern Tests
> > D-Cache RAM Write/Read Test
> > D-Cache PTAG Write/Read Test
> > D-Cache STAG Write/Read Test
> > I-Cache RAM Write/Read Test
> > I-Cache PTAG Write/Read Test
> > I-Cache STAG Write/Read Test
> > EMC/SMC Control Regs  Tests
> >
> > How in hell a *cable* can result in garbage beats me. I would expect
> > data, or no data - not garbage data...
> >
> > On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 3:41 AM, tony duell 
> wrote:
> >>> I'm trying to resurrect a couple of Sparcstation 10 systems. Is there
> >>> anything 'funny' about the serial console settings on SS10 hardware? I
> >>> thought they always defaulted to 9600-n-8-1, but I get voluminous
> >>> gobbledygook at that, and at every other baud rate I've tried.
> >>>
> >>> Both systems behave identically, so I can't assume SS10 settings are
> >>> wrong. And I *am* getting data, so I don't see how it can be the
> >>> cabling. Something strange about the terminal emulation mode required
> >>> maybe?
> >>
> >> Did they both come from the same place? It is possible (I guess) that
> >> parameters were changed to meet a local 'standard', and thus both
> >> machines are configured identically, just not the normal way.
> >>
> >> From the FAQ I've looked at, the serial port is a DB25 with the 'A'
> >> port on on the primary channel and the 'B' port on the back channel.
> >> If so, at least you've not got the classic problem of wiring up an
> >> RS422 port and using the wrong data pin (and thus getting inverted
> >> data, including the framing bits, which really confuses the receiver).
> >>
> >> I don't know if it's implemented here, but the FAQ suggests that pin 24
> >> will carry a baud rate clock. Have you tried a 'scope there? If so,
> what do
> >> you see, and what frequency?
> >>
> >> -tony
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> >
> > http://www.corestore.org
> > 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> > Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> > For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>

Re: SS10 console settings

[Mike Ross]

Sorry, didn't notice I'd replied to an email rather than the list.
>From last night:

OK I'll have to get to the bottom of this at some point, but it seems
it WAS the cable! Tried another one and, at 9600

$   WARNING : No Keyboard Detected! $
MMU Context Table Reg Test
MMU Context Register Test
MMU TLB Bit Pattern Tests
D-Cache RAM Write/Read Test
D-Cache PTAG Write/Read Test
D-Cache STAG Write/Read Test
I-Cache RAM Write/Read Test
I-Cache PTAG Write/Read Test
I-Cache STAG Write/Read Test
EMC/SMC Control Regs  Tests

How in hell a *cable* can result in garbage beats me. I would expect
data, or no data - not garbage data...

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 3:41 AM, tony duell  wrote:
>> I'm trying to resurrect a couple of Sparcstation 10 systems. Is there
>> anything 'funny' about the serial console settings on SS10 hardware? I
>> thought they always defaulted to 9600-n-8-1, but I get voluminous
>> gobbledygook at that, and at every other baud rate I've tried.
>>
>> Both systems behave identically, so I can't assume SS10 settings are
>> wrong. And I *am* getting data, so I don't see how it can be the
>> cabling. Something strange about the terminal emulation mode required
>> maybe?
>
> Did they both come from the same place? It is possible (I guess) that
> parameters were changed to meet a local 'standard', and thus both
> machines are configured identically, just not the normal way.
>
> From the FAQ I've looked at, the serial port is a DB25 with the 'A'
> port on on the primary channel and the 'B' port on the back channel.
> If so, at least you've not got the classic problem of wiring up an
> RS422 port and using the wrong data pin (and thus getting inverted
> data, including the framing bits, which really confuses the receiver).
>
> I don't know if it's implemented here, but the FAQ suggests that pin 24
> will carry a baud rate clock. Have you tried a 'scope there? If so, what do
> you see, and what frequency?
>
> -tony



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: SS10 console settings

[Mike Ross]

(Both boxes are running Linux; one is the host for my SIMH TOPS-10
system, the other for KLH TOPS-20. Now I have to figure out how to
tickle them into giving a serial port login; it seems I'd forgotten
the last time I set them up they must have been configured to go
straight into X, so now the boot ends with...

Master Resource Control: runlevel 5 has been reached
Skipped services in runlevel 5:  personal-firewall.initial
personal-firewall.final
INIT: Id "1" respawning too fast: disabled for 5 minutes
INIT: Id "2" respawning too fast: disabled for 5 minutes

(repeat indefinitely)

rather than a login prompt! Grrr... one thing after another!
Thanks for help.)

Mike


On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 9:22 AM, Mike Ross  wrote:
> Sorry, didn't notice I'd replied to an email rather than the list.
> From last night:
>
> OK I'll have to get to the bottom of this at some point, but it seems
> it WAS the cable! Tried another one and, at 9600
>
> $   WARNING : No Keyboard Detected! $
> MMU Context Table Reg Test
> MMU Context Register Test
> MMU TLB Bit Pattern Tests
> D-Cache RAM Write/Read Test
> D-Cache PTAG Write/Read Test
> D-Cache STAG Write/Read Test
> I-Cache RAM Write/Read Test
> I-Cache PTAG Write/Read Test
> I-Cache STAG Write/Read Test
> EMC/SMC Control Regs  Tests
>
> How in hell a *cable* can result in garbage beats me. I would expect
> data, or no data - not garbage data...
>
> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 3:41 AM, tony duell  wrote:
>>> I'm trying to resurrect a couple of Sparcstation 10 systems. Is there
>>> anything 'funny' about the serial console settings on SS10 hardware? I
>>> thought they always defaulted to 9600-n-8-1, but I get voluminous
>>> gobbledygook at that, and at every other baud rate I've tried.
>>>
>>> Both systems behave identically, so I can't assume SS10 settings are
>>> wrong. And I *am* getting data, so I don't see how it can be the
>>> cabling. Something strange about the terminal emulation mode required
>>> maybe?
>>
>> Did they both come from the same place? It is possible (I guess) that
>> parameters were changed to meet a local 'standard', and thus both
>> machines are configured identically, just not the normal way.
>>
>> From the FAQ I've looked at, the serial port is a DB25 with the 'A'
>> port on on the primary channel and the 'B' port on the back channel.
>> If so, at least you've not got the classic problem of wiring up an
>> RS422 port and using the wrong data pin (and thus getting inverted
>> data, including the framing bits, which really confuses the receiver).
>>
>> I don't know if it's implemented here, but the FAQ suggests that pin 24
>> will carry a baud rate clock. Have you tried a 'scope there? If so, what do
>> you see, and what frequency?
>>
>> -tony
>
>
>
> --
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'



-- 

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Joe Lenox]

I also think it is in the spirit of the computer - using what is available
to fix a problem at hand. I think the arduino was overkill when an attiny
(smaller, easier to hide) would probably serve just as well.

If you have the ttl logic bits lying around and know how to use them, fine.
Still would probably need debugging.
On Jun 14, 2015 2:41 PM, "Simon Claessen"  wrote:

> as long as it is done in a way that it can be restored to its original, i
> have no problems in using newer technology in older machines. we have a
> alix sbc build into our tek 4002a for demonstrational purpouses, all done
> without damaging or altering the original machine.
>
> On 14-06-15 17:25, tony duell wrote:
>
>>
>>  The ripple on the power supplies is still going lower as we put more run
>>> time on the system. The power supplies are now within spec.
>>>
>>
>> Capacitors reforming naturally?
>>
>>  Warren made an Arduino based programmable baud rate generator that works
>>> for both serial ports. After some debugging, it works nicely.
>>>
>>
>> I am sorry, but I find that obscene!. To use more components than the
>> rest of the machine
>> (probably) just for the baud rate clock is ridiculous. IMHO if you are
>> going to modify a
>> vintage machine, particularly one as rare as a PDP12, you should use the
>> components
>> that were available at the time. It's not as if a programmable buad rate
>> generator is hard
>> to make from TTL either. In fact given the Arduino thing needed 'some
>> debugging' it might
>> well have taken less time to do it in hardware.
>>
>> -tony
>>
>>
> --
> Met vriendelijke Groet,
>
> Simon Claessen
> drukknop.nl
>

RE: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM (tony duell)

[Michael Thompson]

>
> Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 15:25:08 +
> From: tony duell 
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" 
> Subject: RE: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
>
> > Warren made an Arduino based programmable baud rate generator that works
> > for both serial ports. After some debugging, it works nicely.
>
> I am sorry, but I find that obscene!. To use more components than the rest
> of the machine
> (probably) just for the baud rate clock is ridiculous. IMHO if you are
> going to modify a
> vintage machine, particularly one as rare as a PDP12, you should use the
> components
> that were available at the time. It's not as if a programmable buad rate
> generator is hard
> to make from TTL either. In fact given the Arduino thing needed 'some
> debugging' it might
> well have taken less time to do it in hardware.
>
> -tony
>

Tony, thank you for your offer to supply replacement M452 Variable Clock
modules for the console. We already have one jumpered for 110 baud for the
Teletype. The other two M452 modules should be jumpered for 9600 baud and
38400 baud. The second serial port uses a M405 Crystal Clock module with a
different pinout and clock outputs than the M452. We don't have any of
these modules, so the three that we need should be jumpered for 110 baud,
9600 baud, and 38400 baud. The shipping address for the RICM is on the WWW
page.

-- 
Michael Thompson

Re: Altos ACS 8000-15A

[Sean Caron]

You can get a whole HP 4957 these days for only $25 or so... it takes up a
bit more space than a plain BoB but you get a lot more functionality :O

Best,

Sean


On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 5:51 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:

> On 06/14/2015 02:28 PM, Chris Osborn wrote:
>
>>
>> On Jun 14, 2015, at 2:18 PM, Chuck Guzis  wrote:
>>
>>  They're still very much around.  I recommend those as well as the
>>> LED monitor gizmos that tells you what the signal lines are doing.
>>>
>>
>> I know companies still make RS232 breakout boxes, I’ve just never
>> seen any that were as nice as the ones I used back in college.
>>
>
> How much do you want to spend?  There still are very many breakout boxes
> being made.  For example:
>
> http://www.rs232bob.com/Products/
>
> --Chuck
>

Re: SS10 console settings

[Jerry Kemp]

+1 to Tony for heading down the right path.

The rear DB25 serial connector is an A & B serial port combined.

Sun had/sold a special Y-splitter cable to use for the combined port.

Here is pinout information from sunhelp.org in case you want to make one for 
yourself from scratch.


http://www.sunhelp.org/unix-serial-port-resources/serial-pinouts/#10.lx.link

Plan B, either someone here has one they can give/sell you, or someone from the 
Sun rescue list will.  Or eBay, etc.


Good Luck,

Jerry



On 06/14/15 10:41 AM, tony duell wrote:

I'm trying to resurrect a couple of Sparcstation 10 systems. Is there
anything 'funny' about the serial console settings on SS10 hardware? I
thought they always defaulted to 9600-n-8-1, but I get voluminous
gobbledygook at that, and at every other baud rate I've tried.

Both systems behave identically, so I can't assume SS10 settings are
wrong. And I *am* getting data, so I don't see how it can be the
cabling. Something strange about the terminal emulation mode required
maybe?


Did they both come from the same place? It is possible (I guess) that
parameters were changed to meet a local 'standard', and thus both
machines are configured identically, just not the normal way.


From the FAQ I've looked at, the serial port is a DB25 with the 'A'

port on on the primary channel and the 'B' port on the back channel.
If so, at least you've not got the classic problem of wiring up an
RS422 port and using the wrong data pin (and thus getting inverted
data, including the framing bits, which really confuses the receiver).

I don't know if it's implemented here, but the FAQ suggests that pin 24
will carry a baud rate clock. Have you tried a 'scope there? If so, what do
you see, and what frequency?

-tony

Re: Need help: Reading 800 bpi NRZI 9 track tapes

[Jeff Woolsey]

I have an HP 88780 with the 800 option (confirmed empirically...)  I'm
in the silicon valley neighborhood.

-- 
  Jeff Woolsey
  j...@jlw.com

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Pontus Pihlgren]

Indeed, you use what is at hand and what you are comfortable with.

/P


On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 09:41:42PM +0200, Simon Claessen wrote:
> as long as it is done in a way that it can be restored to its
> original, i have no problems in using newer technology in older
> machines. we have a alix sbc build into our tek 4002a for
> demonstrational purpouses, all done without damaging or altering the
> original machine.
> 
> On 14-06-15 17:25, tony duell wrote:
> >
> >>The ripple on the power supplies is still going lower as we put more run
> >>time on the system. The power supplies are now within spec.
> >
> >Capacitors reforming naturally?
> >
> >>Warren made an Arduino based programmable baud rate generator that works
> >>for both serial ports. After some debugging, it works nicely.
> >
> >I am sorry, but I find that obscene!. To use more components than the rest 
> >of the machine
> >(probably) just for the baud rate clock is ridiculous. IMHO if you are going 
> >to modify a
> >vintage machine, particularly one as rare as a PDP12, you should use the 
> >components
> >that were available at the time. It's not as if a programmable buad rate 
> >generator is hard
> >to make from TTL either. In fact given the Arduino thing needed 'some 
> >debugging' it might
> >well have taken less time to do it in hardware.
> >
> >-tony
> >
> 
> -- 
> Met vriendelijke Groet,
> 
> Simon Claessen
> drukknop.nl

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Johnny Billquist]

While I agree that as long as things can be restored it's not a real 
problem, I'm surprised that not more people consider it a serious overkill.


We're talking about putting in a rather complex computer to generate a 
baud rate. Are people really that handicapped when it comes to building 
hardware nowadays? Are people aware how easy baud generators are?
We're essentially talking about a clock, which can be found as a 
component (various oscillators), and then dividing it. There used to be 
chips around which did that part, and I would expect it to not be that 
hard to find some if you looked today. Many UARTs even comes with a 
clock divider built in.


And that is it. When I build various Z80 systems, I usually had a Z80 
CTC included, which I used for generating the baud rates.


Johnny

On 2015-06-15 02:52, Joe Lenox wrote:

I also think it is in the spirit of the computer - using what is available
to fix a problem at hand. I think the arduino was overkill when an attiny
(smaller, easier to hide) would probably serve just as well.

If you have the ttl logic bits lying around and know how to use them, fine.
Still would probably need debugging.
On Jun 14, 2015 2:41 PM, "Simon Claessen"  wrote:


as long as it is done in a way that it can be restored to its original, i
have no problems in using newer technology in older machines. we have a
alix sbc build into our tek 4002a for demonstrational purpouses, all done
without damaging or altering the original machine.

On 14-06-15 17:25, tony duell wrote:



  The ripple on the power supplies is still going lower as we put more run

time on the system. The power supplies are now within spec.



Capacitors reforming naturally?

  Warren made an Arduino based programmable baud rate generator that works

for both serial ports. After some debugging, it works nicely.



I am sorry, but I find that obscene!. To use more components than the
rest of the machine
(probably) just for the baud rate clock is ridiculous. IMHO if you are
going to modify a
vintage machine, particularly one as rare as a PDP12, you should use the
components
that were available at the time. It's not as if a programmable buad rate
generator is hard
to make from TTL either. In fact given the Arduino thing needed 'some
debugging' it might
well have taken less time to do it in hardware.

-tony



--
Met vriendelijke Groet,

Simon Claessen
drukknop.nl




--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:52:28AM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> 
> We're talking about putting in a rather complex computer to generate
> a baud rate. Are people really that handicapped when it comes to
> building hardware nowadays?

Speaking for myself, yes.

I have a Teensy 2.0 lying at my desk, it's Arduino compatible. I have 
the development environemnt set up, a small solderless breadboard and 
proper power supply. I could probably whip up the C-code for a flicking 
pin on and off in the correct pace in very little time.

Now, if the alternative is reading up on crystals, oscillators, dividers 
and related support chips, figure out where to buy and then wait for the 
parts to ship, which option do you think I will choose?


Of course, I think it's overkill and anachronistic and I'd rather use 
the Teensy for something else, so I'd probably read up and do it "right" 
too.

/P

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Mouse]

> We're talking about putting in a rather complex computer to generate
> a baud rate.  Are people really that handicapped when it comes to
> building hardware nowadays?

Speaking as someone who didn't do that, but might well have - it's not
a question of "handicapped"; it's a question of convenience, ease of
use, and suchlike.

Yes, I know how to build a BRG in hardware.  I've even done it, more or
less.  But if I want something fast, and I have a small SOC handy, I
may well use it: it's a lot easier to change the generated frequency in
more-or-less arbitrary ways (ie, other than just picking a different
tap off a divider chain), and it's quite possible the SOC is at readier
hand than the oscillator and divider.

Of course, if it's going to be there for more than the short term, I
probably will replace it once I've settled on a frequency.  But
initially?  Sure, I'll go with the "complex" way, for convenience and
flexibility.

I'm also likely to fire up a calculator program on a desktop computer
to add two five-digit numbers rather than reaching for pencil and paper
or a dedicated calculator.  Even though I'm hardly incapable of using
either of the latter.

When the more powerful tool is handy and its use carries no sigificant
downside, I see nothing wrong with overkill.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: Front Panel Tech Note 2

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Pontus Pihlgren

>> Seeing the one with the one with the missing toggle switches reminds
>> me that I have an enquiry out re getting some made.

> I believe many would appreciate that.

We probably ought to standardize our terminology to be slightly less
confusing. As we've determined, the actual switch is a slide switch, not a
toggle. I'm not sure what the official DEC name is for the plastic lever which
actuates the slide switch - anyone know?

Noel

PS: If a way is developed to make the plastic levers, the 11/20 uses the
exact same part, just in PDP-11 colours.

Re: Front Panel Tech Note 2

[Kyle Owen]

On Jun 15, 2015 9:11 AM, "Noel Chiappa"  wrote:
>
> I'm not sure what the official DEC name is for the plastic lever which
> actuates the slide switch - anyone know?

I hear them referred to as handles.

>
> PS: If a way is developed to make the plastic levers, the 11/20 uses the
> exact same part, just in PDP-11 colours.

They've been 3D printed with the sintered nylon process, dyed and polished
with good results thanks to the efforts of Vince Slyngstad. I'm not sure if
Vince also did the model of it or had some help, but I'm quite satisfied
with mine mechanically speaking, though the yellow is a little light for my
8/E. Maybe some of the 11/20 colors would turn out better.

Kyle

RE: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Dave G4UGM]

I don't think it is over kill. If you want over kill try this:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALXax3Gydl8

and FPGA implementation of the Baby or SSEM which had 32x32 bits of RAM. The 
implementation uses around 1% of the Spartan 3E 1200K gates, and that includes 
the logic to generate the VGA which is around 50% of the circuit. I expect to 
get it on a 100K gate chip but that’s still over-kill.

I am also aware how HARD baud rate generator chips are. Firstly you need to 
know the multiplier, and then you need a crystal that can easily be divided. I 
looked on E-Bay UK and the cheapest dedicated baud rate generator was 10x the 
price of a Arduino Nano. Then I would need a crystal and the other bits to make 
the generator. I would expect the chip count on a dedicated baud rate generator 
board to exceed that of the Nano. Of course it is not original, but an 
authentic board would only use SSI TTL and where would one find that easily.

I personally think it is an appropriate cludge that allows de-bugging to 
continue and gives you time to work out what the best long term solution would 
be.

Dave

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Johnny
> Billquist
> Sent: 15 June 2015 10:52
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration
> at the RICM
> 
> While I agree that as long as things can be restored it's not a real problem, 
> I'm
> surprised that not more people consider it a serious overkill.
> 
> We're talking about putting in a rather complex computer to generate a baud
> rate. Are people really that handicapped when it comes to building hardware
> nowadays? Are people aware how easy baud generators are?
> We're essentially talking about a clock, which can be found as a component
> (various oscillators), and then dividing it. There used to be chips around
> which did that part, and I would expect it to not be that hard to find some if
> you looked today. Many UARTs even comes with a clock divider built in.
> 
> And that is it. When I build various Z80 systems, I usually had a Z80 CTC
> included, which I used for generating the baud rates.
> 
>   Johnny
> 
> On 2015-06-15 02:52, Joe Lenox wrote:
> > I also think it is in the spirit of the computer - using what is
> > available to fix a problem at hand. I think the arduino was overkill
> > when an attiny (smaller, easier to hide) would probably serve just as well.
> >
> > If you have the ttl logic bits lying around and know how to use them, fine.
> > Still would probably need debugging.
> > On Jun 14, 2015 2:41 PM, "Simon Claessen"  wrote:
> >
> >> as long as it is done in a way that it can be restored to its
> >> original, i have no problems in using newer technology in older
> >> machines. we have a alix sbc build into our tek 4002a for
> >> demonstrational purpouses, all done without damaging or altering the
> original machine.
> >>
> >> On 14-06-15 17:25, tony duell wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>>   The ripple on the power supplies is still going lower as we put
> >>> more run
>  time on the system. The power supplies are now within spec.
> 
> >>>
> >>> Capacitors reforming naturally?
> >>>
> >>>   Warren made an Arduino based programmable baud rate generator
> that
> >>> works
>  for both serial ports. After some debugging, it works nicely.
> 
> >>>
> >>> I am sorry, but I find that obscene!. To use more components than
> >>> the rest of the machine
> >>> (probably) just for the baud rate clock is ridiculous. IMHO if you
> >>> are going to modify a vintage machine, particularly one as rare as a
> >>> PDP12, you should use the components that were available at the
> >>> time. It's not as if a programmable buad rate generator is hard to
> >>> make from TTL either. In fact given the Arduino thing needed 'some
> >>> debugging' it might well have taken less time to do it in hardware.
> >>>
> >>> -tony
> >>>
> >>>
> >> --
> >> Met vriendelijke Groet,
> >>
> >> Simon Claessen
> >> drukknop.nl
> >>
> 
> 
> --
> Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
>||  on a psychedelic trip
> email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
> pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: Front Panel Tech Note 2

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Kyle Owen: Monday, June 15, 2015 6:17 AM

PS: If a way is developed to make the plastic levers, the 11/20 uses the
exact same part, just in PDP-11 colours.


They've been 3D printed with the sintered nylon process, dyed and polished
with good results thanks to the efforts of Vince Slyngstad. I'm not sure if
Vince also did the model of it or had some help, but I'm quite satisfied
with mine mechanically speaking, though the yellow is a little light for my
8/E.


I tried spraying a white Nova 3 handle that I had printed with the same 
process with Krylon Fusion yellow.  That gave a slightly less "bright" 
yellow with a good satin finish, and the handle hasn't melted down 
into a smelly mess, as I gather can happen with some paints.  (And 
is also why I did this with the Nova 3 prototype handle that didn't 
fit well anyway.)


It was actually even quicker and easier than sealing the yellow or 
orange porous sintered nylon with urethane floor polish.



Maybe some of the 11/20 colors would turn out better.


I don't like the Shapeways dye colors for the -11 colors, though 
I suppose if you did the whole panel it would look OK.

(The "pink" is sort of the right magenta, but much too bright.)

I'd probably just print them in white (slightly cheaper too), 
then look for a suitable spray paint.  Since the surface is so 
porous, I don't think there'll be the problems with the 
paint failing to bond that a non-porous plastic would have.


Designs can be found here:
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php
though the commentary is slightly out of date, as usual.

   Vince 

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Chris Osborn]

On Jun 15, 2015, at 3:06 AM, Pontus Pihlgren  wrote:

> On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:52:28AM +0200, Johnny Billquist wrote:
> 
>> We're talking about putting in a rather complex computer to generate
>> a baud rate. Are people really that handicapped when it comes to
>> building hardware nowadays?
> 
> Speaking for myself, yes.
> 
> I have a Teensy 2.0 lying at my desk, it's Arduino compatible. I have 
> the development environemnt set up, a small solderless breadboard and 
> proper power supply. I could probably whip up the C-code for a flicking 
> pin on and off in the correct pace in very little time.
> 
> Now, if the alternative is reading up on crystals, oscillators, dividers 
> and related support chips, figure out where to buy and then wait for the 
> parts to ship, which option do you think I will choose?


Agreed. I really love the modern microcontrollers like the Arduino and tiny 
embedded computers with GPIO like the Raspberry Pi or Galileo because they make 
it so incredibly easy to turn a hardware problem into a software problem. And 
writing software is super easy, even if you’re not an expert. You can just keep 
trying another solution over and over and all you have to do is push a few keys 
on your keyboard.

--
Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx
Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com

Re: Front Panel Tech Note 2

[Rod Smallwood]

I can tell you what they were called internally at DEC.
Mainly due to the fact I was there at the time.
They were called Toggles or Toggle switches and their use was called 
'Toggling' hence 'To toggle in the bootstrap'
Any DEC field engineer of that time knew by heart the sequence of octal 
numbers you entered to bring the system up.


Rod Smallwood


On 15/06/2015 14:11, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Pontus Pihlgren

 >> Seeing the one with the one with the missing toggle switches reminds
 >> me that I have an enquiry out re getting some made.

 > I believe many would appreciate that.

We probably ought to standardize our terminology to be slightly less
confusing. As we've determined, the actual switch is a slide switch, not a
toggle. I'm not sure what the official DEC name is for the plastic lever which
actuates the slide switch - anyone know?

Noel

PS: If a way is developed to make the plastic levers, the 11/20 uses the
exact same part, just in PDP-11 colours.

Re: Altos ACS 8000-15A

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 14, 2015, at 18:38, Sean Caron  wrote:
> 
> You can get a whole HP 4957 these days for only $25 or so... it takes up a
> bit more space than a plain BoB but you get a lot more functionality :O

I recently bought an HP 4952A protocol analyzer for $70. There were ones listed 
at least as low as $37, but I picked one that had all of the accessories, 
cables and disks that I would have pieced together otherwise. It has been handy 
for debugging communications between my VAX-11/730 and tu58em. All I had to do 
was to build a Y cable for the RJ45 modular cabling that I'm gradually 
converting all of my RS232 cabling over to, and some test pins to plug into the 
recessed breakout connections so I could hook an oscilloscope up easily.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

FPGA tricks - Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Toby Thain]

On 2015-06-15 9:35 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:

I don't think it is over kill. If you want over kill try this:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALXax3Gydl8

and FPGA implementation of the Baby or SSEM which had 32x32 bits of

RAM. The implementation uses around 1% of the Spartan 3E 1200K gates,
and that includes the logic to generate the VGA which is around 50% of
the circuit. I expect to get it on a 100K gate chip but that’s still
over-kill.




Speaking of VGA, you might like this:

http://www.fpgarelated.com/showarticle/42.php

--Toby



I am also aware how HARD baud rate generator chips are. Firstly you

need to know the multiplier, and then you need a crystal that can easily
be divided. I looked on E-Bay UK and the cheapest dedicated baud rate
generator was 10x the price of a Arduino Nano. Then I would need a
crystal and the other bits to make the generator. I would expect the
chip count on a dedicated baud rate generator board to exceed that of
the Nano. Of course it is not original, but an authentic board would
only use SSI TTL and where would one find that easily.


I personally think it is an appropriate cludge that allows
de-bugging

to continue and gives you time to work out what the best long term
solution would be.


Dave

Reviving a VAX-11/750

[Mattis Lind]

The revival process of the 11/750 continues. The power supplies is working
good and then I started testing the actual machine. But that was not a very
smooth journey to success. I have in total at least three complete CPU
board sets and just after quite a lot of board swapping it got running (I
think).

I had error like:
* Bright red error light
* No response at all on the console
* %C microverify error
* %O microverify error
* An hexdump prompt which non like above bot still not correct.
* etc

Finally I had the

%%  which meant that it passed microverify.

Then I used the (second) RDM module (the first one had RAM error) to run
the DPM and MIC test which passed.

The I ran the "Hardcore VAX instruction test" / TU58#7 which also passed
fine.

BUT the Cache / TB diag, TU58#5, give me this:

%%


  16

>>>B

%%

@?ECKAL -- VAX 11/750 Cache/TB Diagnostic

3488  06


>>>


I am running a BE-S198Q-DE tape image.


Anyone has a listing or description for the ECKAL diagnostic? Is there any
know incompatibilities with certain revisions of boards? Or known bugs?

The machine manage to boot the console tape so I get the BOOT58> prompt.
But I am not sure if that indicate that it is indeed working or not.


So, some help with the Cache/TB diagnostic would be very much appreciated.


/Mattis

VAX 11/730

[emanuel stiebler]

As usual, a long shot, but anybody in the list
like to get rid of one? Preferably Colorado ;-)

Re: Reviving a VAX-11/750

[Mark J. Blair]

I wasn't aware that you are working on a 750 repair. Congratulations on the 
progress you have already made! Are you using real console tapes, tu58em, or 
something else?

Re: VAX 11/730

[Mark J. Blair]

If you can find one, I'll be happy to help out with tape images and so forth 
for your bringup!



> On Jun 15, 2015, at 08:32, emanuel stiebler  wrote:
> 
> As usual, a long shot, but anybody in the list
> like to get rid of one? Preferably Colorado ;-)

Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[Mark J. Blair]

Has anybody ever made a UNIBUS repeater with a high speed serial link between 
the bus segments yet? I'm curious because my VAX-11/730 backplane is full, and 
it would be nice to be able to experiment with additional hardware without 
needing to pull out one of the existing boards, i.e., adding a TK50 interface 
without removing the DEUNA, adding a SCSI card to boot from a scsi2sd without 
pulling the integrated drive controller, etc. There's a blank spot in the TU80 
cabinet that looks like it may be tall enough for an expansion chassis, but the 
thought of adding more big ribbon cables to the belly plate area and then 
routing them between racks doesn't appeal to me. Running something like a CAT5 
cable between the two racks would be a lot easier. Another application would be 
for placing a small remote UNIBUS backplane on the test bench for easy access, 
and cabling it to a VAX or PDP-11 elsewhere in the room.

This should be quite possible with modern hardware, but I'm curious about 
whether something similar has been done before.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[Guy Sotomayor]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
> 
> Has anybody ever made a UNIBUS repeater with a high speed serial link between 
> the bus segments yet? I'm curious because my VAX-11/730 backplane is full, 
> and it would be nice to be able to experiment with additional hardware 
> without needing to pull out one of the existing boards, i.e., adding a TK50 
> interface without removing the DEUNA, adding a SCSI card to boot from a 
> scsi2sd without pulling the integrated drive controller, etc. There's a blank 
> spot in the TU80 cabinet that looks like it may be tall enough for an 
> expansion chassis, but the thought of adding more big ribbon cables to the 
> belly plate area and then routing them between racks doesn't appeal to me. 
> Running something like a CAT5 cable between the two racks would be a lot 
> easier. Another application would be for placing a small remote UNIBUS 
> backplane on the test bench for easy access, and cabling it to a VAX or 
> PDP-11 elsewhere in the room.
> 
> This should be quite possible with modern hardware, but I'm curious about 
> whether something similar has been done before.

I'm not specifically familiar with the 11/730, but what's wrong with just 
cabling up an expansion box "the old fashioned way" using BC11A cable?

TTFN - Guy

Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[Paul Anderson]

Hi Mark,

Do you just need a 4 or 9 slot backplane?

I Don't see the need for a repeater unless I'm missing something.

Paul

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 10:57 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:

> Has anybody ever made a UNIBUS repeater with a high speed serial link
> between the bus segments yet? I'm curious because my VAX-11/730 backplane
> is full, and it would be nice to be able to experiment with additional
> hardware without needing to pull out one of the existing boards, i.e.,
> adding a TK50 interface without removing the DEUNA, adding a SCSI card to
> boot from a scsi2sd without pulling the integrated drive controller, etc.
> There's a blank spot in the TU80 cabinet that looks like it may be tall
> enough for an expansion chassis, but the thought of adding more big ribbon
> cables to the belly plate area and then routing them between racks doesn't
> appeal to me. Running something like a CAT5 cable between the two racks
> would be a lot easier. Another application would be for placing a small
> remote UNIBUS backplane on the test bench for easy access, and cabling it
> to a VAX or PDP-11 elsewhere in the room.
>
> This should be quite possible with modern hardware, but I'm curious about
> whether something similar has been done before.
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 09:02, Guy Sotomayor  wrote:
> 
> I'm not specifically familiar with the 11/730, but what's wrong with just 
> cabling up an expansion box "the old fashioned way" using BC11A cable?

Without losing anything else in the already-full rack, I'd need to route that 
cable between two racks. It's already tricky to roll the cabinets back into 
place without rolling over the existing round snakes between the cabinets, and 
I figure that wide ribbon cables would be more cumbersome (or is the BC11A 
round?). I have the system in a tiny room where it's not practical to have 
space behind the racks to get rear access without rolling them.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 09:06, Paul Anderson  wrote:
> 
> Hi Mark,
> 
> Do you just need a 4 or 9 slot backplane?
> 
> I Don't see the need for a repeater unless I'm missing something.

An expansion without a reapeater would work just fine electrically. I'm curious 
about whether some sort of repeater exists that uses a thin, round cable for an 
application where it's desirable to be able to move the expansion around 
easily. And also where it's cheap and easy to replace the cable after rolling a 
rack cabinet over it one time too many! :)

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[Paul Anderson]

BC11-A is flat, guessing 4 inches wide, but you man make nice 90 degree or
what ever angle you need easily.


On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:

>
> > On Jun 15, 2015, at 09:02, Guy Sotomayor  wrote:
> >
> > I'm not specifically familiar with the 11/730, but what's wrong with
> just cabling up an expansion box "the old fashioned way" using BC11A cable?
>
> Without losing anything else in the already-full rack, I'd need to route
> that cable between two racks. It's already tricky to roll the cabinets back
> into place without rolling over the existing round snakes between the
> cabinets, and I figure that wide ribbon cables would be more cumbersome (or
> is the BC11A round?). I have the system in a tiny room where it's not
> practical to have space behind the racks to get rear access without rolling
> them.
>
>
> --
> Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
> http://www.nf6x.net/
>
>

Updates

[Guy Sotomayor]

I know some folks have been trying to get in touch with me for a while and I 
want to apologize for not getting back in touch with folks before now.

The short and long of it has been the fact that first my wife had health 
issues, then I had health issues and finally in the middle of all of this my 
ISP decided to move me to a new static IP block which caused my email to be on 
various black-lists that took a while to get off of (so I could *see* the 
emails, I just couldn't respond).

So, that's why folks haven't heard from me.

Up until the above, I had been making steady progress on the MEM11 code.  Right 
now I have most of the forth code written along with a J1 simulator (written in 
forth).  I was in the process of debugging the simulator when all of the above 
occurred and I haven't been able to get back to it yet.  I hope to start on it 
again in the next few weeks.

TTFN - Guy

Fix for duplicate (and triplicate) messages on cctalk?

[Chuck Guzis]

I know that others have discussed the issue, but can someone tell me 
concisely  how to avoid multiple copies of the same message on cctalk?


Overnight, 54 new messages arrived in my inbox.  The problem was that 
I'd seem a large number of them a day or two before.


What's the trick to keeping things simple, people?

--Chuck

Re: Updates

[Mark J. Blair]

I hope that you and your wife are doing better now!

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

UA11s

[Guy Sotomayor]

For a while now, folks have been asking me about UA11s.  I've been putting them 
off because I'm sure I have some boards but can't find them until I unpack the 
"basement" of my new shop.  I figured that I'd have done that by now but it's 
*still* not done.  :-(

So, in the name of customer service, I'm going to fab another round of UA11 
boards (just the boards, you'll have to source all of the parts yourselves).  
So that I know how big an order to place, can folks contact me (off list 
please: g...@shiresoft.com) on if you'd like a board (or two or ??).  I just 
want to have a rough idea of what the demand is (ie should I order 10, 25, 
100?).

Thanks.

TTFN - Guy

Re: Updates

[Guy Sotomayor]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 9:13 AM, Mark J. Blair  wrote:
> 
> I hope that you and your wife are doing better now!

Thanks.

She's doing great!  I'm still recovering.

TTFN - Guy

Re: UA11s

[Guy Sotomayor]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Guy Sotomayor  wrote:
> 
> For a while now, folks have been asking me about UA11s.  I've been putting 
> them off because I'm sure I have some boards but can't find them until I 
> unpack the "basement" of my new shop.  I figured that I'd have done that by 
> now but it's *still* not done.  :-(
> 
> So, in the name of customer service, I'm going to fab another round of UA11 
> boards (just the boards, you'll have to source all of the parts yourselves).  
> So that I know how big an order to place, can folks contact me (off list 
> please: g...@shiresoft.com) on if you'd like a board (or two or ??).  I just 
> want to have a rough idea of what the demand is (ie should I order 10, 25, 
> 100?).
> 

Oh, forgot to add, I'll probably be placing an order sometime in July.

TTFN - Guy

Re: FPGA tricks - Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[ben]

On 6/15/2015 9:08 AM, Toby Thain wrote:

On 2015-06-15 9:35 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:

I don't think it is over kill. If you want over kill try this:-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALXax3Gydl8

and FPGA implementation of the Baby or SSEM which had 32x32 bits of

RAM. The implementation uses around 1% of the Spartan 3E 1200K gates,
and that includes the logic to generate the VGA which is around 50% of
the circuit. I expect to get it on a 100K gate chip but that’s still
over-kill.




Speaking of VGA, you might like this:

http://www.fpgarelated.com/showarticle/42.php

--Toby



But alas the software does *not* support the older chips.
You want to make a mod 5 years down the road, sorry we do not
support that model any more. TTL needs to  be stock piled
now for the next +50 years.
I finally got 18 bit FPGA computer (DE1) design I like, that
is early 70's speed. 1.5 us core. What I am having problems
is finding a good book on Operating Systems from that Era
that is online, any one know a good book? I have software
that I need to write.
Ben.

Re: FPGA tricks - Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 09:18, ben  wrote:
> But alas the software does *not* support the older chips.
> You want to make a mod 5 years down the road, sorry we do not
> support that model any more. TTL needs to  be stock piled
> now for the next +50 years.

Good point. Just as TTL needs to be stockpiled, I think we should be in a habit 
of archiving virtual machines containing development software installed in a 
compatible operating system, so the software can still hopefully be used long 
after the original machines are obsolete. Much like we often use SIMH now for 
maintenance tasks to help bring up old machines that no longer live in an 
ecosystem of similar machines.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: First VAX-11/730 VMS Boot! (was: Re: VAX-11/730 %BOOT-F-Unexpected Machine Check)

[Richard Loken]

On Sat, 13 Jun 2015, Mark J. Blair wrote:

> How do I respond to tape mount requests on the same console where I'm
> running BACKUP? When I get the request asking whether to create a new tape
> volume, it doesn't seem to respond to terminal input.

First, initialize all the tapes you might need using the same label as you
will use when you run backup.

Second, run your backups as a batch job and then VMS does not expect you to
reply to requests for new tapes, he just expects the tape to appear.

Third, use the "/noassist" parameter - that makes it clear to VMS that the
operator has been laid off and is now working as a greeter at Walmart.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University:  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada   :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** :  - Lynn Johnston

Re: First VAX-11/730 VMS Boot! (was: Re: VAX-11/730 %BOOT-F-Unexpected Machine Check)

[Richard Loken]

On Sat, 13 Jun 2015, Mark J. Blair wrote:

> Thanks, I will read that. But how do I enter the reply command when the
> BACKUP program is hogging the console? Is there a VMS equivalent to the
> way a task can be suspended in UNIX with ^Z?

There are several:

$ submit /queue=sys$batch /noprint foo.com
$ run /detached foo.exe
$ spawn /nolog /process==spawned_foo foo.exe

You need to read a little tome entitled "Mastering VMS" by David W. Byron or
maybe "The VMS User's Manual" that came with VAX/VMS Version 5.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University:  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada   :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** :  - Lynn Johnston

RE: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[tony duell]

> I also think it is in the spirit of the computer - using what is available
> to fix a problem at hand. I think the arduino was overkill when an attiny
> (smaller, easier to hide) would probably serve just as well.

Would you put plastic handles on a piecc of antique furniture? Would you 
make the seatboard for an antique longcase clock from MDF? 
Both are easily reversable, BTW.

> If you have the ttl logic bits lying around and know how to use them, fine.
> Still would probably need debugging.

FWIW I have made programmable dividers on a couple of occasions recently
(one was a 100/120 flash-per-second stroboscope, the other was the transmitter
half of a modem to talk to TDDs). Both of them worked first time. I guess it's 
just
what I am used to.

-tony

RE: FPGA tricks - Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Dave G4UGM]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of ben
> Sent: 15 June 2015 17:18
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: FPGA tricks - Re: using new technology on old machines. Was:
> PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM
> 
> On 6/15/2015 9:08 AM, Toby Thain wrote:
> > On 2015-06-15 9:35 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
> >> I don't think it is over kill. If you want over kill try this:-
> >>
> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALXax3Gydl8
> >>
> >> and FPGA implementation of the Baby or SSEM which had 32x32 bits of
> > RAM. The implementation uses around 1% of the Spartan 3E 1200K gates,
> > and that includes the logic to generate the VGA which is around 50% of
> > the circuit. I expect to get it on a 100K gate chip but that’s still
> > over-kill.
> >>
> >
> > Speaking of VGA, you might like this:
> >
> > http://www.fpgarelated.com/showarticle/42.php
> >
> > --Toby
> >
> 
> But alas the software does *not* support the older chips.

How old is old? I managed to get a copy of ISE10.1 downloaded, installed and 
running without phoning, ringing or otherwise jumping through hoops. That 
supports the Spartan 2 which has been obsolete for some time..  If you want to 
play with some Spartan 2 chips contact me off-line.

> You want to make a mod 5 years down the road, sorry we do not support
> that model any more. TTL needs to  be stock piled now for the next +50
> years.
> I finally got 18 bit FPGA computer (DE1) design I like, that is early 70's 
> speed.
> 1.5 us core. What I am having problems is finding a good book on Operating
> Systems from that Era that is online, any one know a good book? I have
> software that I need to write.
> Ben.
> 
> 
> 
> 

RE: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[tony duell]

> > We're talking about putting in a rather complex computer to generate
> > a baud rate. Are people really that handicapped when it comes to
> > building hardware nowadays?
> 
> Speaking for myself, yes.

Unfortunately I believe you. Use at least a thousand times more components than
you need to.

> Now, if the alternative is reading up on crystals, oscillators, dividers
> and related support chips, figure out where to buy and then wait for the
> parts to ship, which option do you think I will choose?

In general this worries me if you are restoring a vintage minicomputer. How on
earth can you hope to fix a TTL-built CPU without knowing the common TTL chips
and without having a few on-hand?

-tony

Re: Fix for duplicate (and triplicate) messages on cctalk?

[Mike Loewen]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015, Chuck Guzis wrote:

I know that others have discussed the issue, but can someone tell me 
concisely  how to avoid multiple copies of the same message on cctalk?


Overnight, 54 new messages arrived in my inbox.  The problem was that I'd 
seem a large number of them a day or two before.


What's the trick to keeping things simple, people?


   I created a filter in my email client (alpine), which looks for 
"cct...@classiccmp.org" on the "To:" header and drops it into the bit 
bucket.  The duplicates still get to my system, but I never see them.  The 
only time I've seen duplicates since I activated the filter was when 
people started CCing to cctech.



Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Vaxstation 4000/60 autoboot

[Marco Rauhut]

Hello list!

I try to autoboot my Vaxstation 4000/60.
The reason is that i want to drive the vax headless.
I have set Disk DKA300 as boot hdd in console mode.
I SET HALT 2 ( reboot).

In this configutarion the system starts into SYSBOOT>.
There i have to give the command CONTINUE to boot VMS.
Is there any way to overide then CONTINUE command?

Marco

 * Deutsch - erkannt
 * Englisch
 * Deutsch

 * Englisch
 * Deutsch

<#>

RE: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[tony duell]

> 
> I'm not specifically familiar with the 11/730, but what's wrong with just 
> cabling up an expansion box "the old 
> fashioned way" using BC11A cable?

Nothing electtically... 

The problem is that the 11/730 mouting box (BA11-Z??) is a bit odd. The boards 
go in from the left. Cables end up
going downwards (either straight down or over the top of the card cage, then 
down between the backplane and
PSU). Then into a removeable tray on the bottom of the mouting box, round a 
flexible plastic sheet and to another tray fixed in the rack. The idea is to 
make the cables route nicely when yout slide the box in and out (something
you have to do on the 11/730 to change the microcode tape or get to the main 
circuit breaker).

I am not sure how a BC11A cable would like being folded back and forth like 
that. The official way was, I think
a board in the Unibus out slot of the 11/730 that had 3 40 pin Berg headers on 
it. This took 3 normal 
40 way ribbon cables which went round the cable routing thing and to a similar 
board in the Unibus in slot of the
expansion box. I think there were even bulkhead panels to route the cables to 
another rack cabinet.

I have the boards and cabling somewhere...

My 11/730, which is a 'to be started soon' project has 4M of RAM and thus 2 
spare hex height
slots. One contains a DMF32, the other a TSU05 tape controller. I have a 
half-rack to put it all in.
Obviously I am putting the CPU and R80 drive in that rack, the question is what 
else. I think an RL02
is pointless (the Integrated disk controller in the CPU of an 11/730 will talk 
to up to 4 drives. One can
be a R80, the others are RL02s). The obvious thing is a TS05 (Cipher F880) tape 
drive, I have one but with
a wrecked door so it needs repairs. I wonder if a Unibus expansion box would be 
more use though.

Incidentally : 

It appears the DECSA (ethernet comms server) PSU is the same PSU as that in the 
11/730 with the memory
PSU board left out. The schematics are in the 11/730 printset, they are not in 
the DECSA printset. Similarly
the LA100 printset doesn't include the PSU schematic, the LA210 one does, and 
it's the same unit again.

Totally useless coincidence that I noticed while doing a cryptic crossword : 

'ethernet' is an anagram of 'three ten', and the original ethernet speeds were 
three and then
ten megabits/second.

-tony

Re: Fix for duplicate (and triplicate) messages on cctalk?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/15/2015 10:06 AM, Mike Loewen wrote:


I created a filter in my email client (alpine), which looks for
"cct...@classiccmp.org" on the "To:" header and drops it into the bit
bucket.  The duplicates still get to my system, but I never see them.
The only time I've seen duplicates since I activated the filter was when
people started CCing to cctech.


That's a good suggestion--I'll give it a try and see hoe well it works.

Thanks,
Chuck

Re: Front Panel Tech Note 2

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Rod Smallwood

> I can tell you what they were called internally at DEC.
> ...
> They were called Toggles or Toggle switches and their use was called
> 'Toggling' hence 'To toggle in the bootstrap'

Maybe because on the older machines (e.g. PDP-1) they really were toggle
switches?

> From: Kyle Owen

> I hear them referred to as handles.

That would work.

Still, it would be nice to find a front panel mechanical drawing and see what
they are called on the BoM. (I tried to find one for the 11/20 front panel,
and although I found the tech manual for it, I couldn't the print set for the
front panel.)

Noel

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Chuck Guzis]

On 06/14/2015 12:41 PM, Simon Claessen wrote:

as long as it is done in a way that it can be restored to its original,
i have no problems in using newer technology in older machines. we have
a alix sbc build into our tek 4002a for demonstrational purpouses, all
done without damaging or altering the original machine.


I'm a bit more pragmatic.  Whatever it takes to get something running, 
I'll do it.  For me, that's the entire point of having the old stuff 
around.  Otherwise, a non-working box is scarcely better than any other 
piece of antique e-waste.  If there's an accurate emulation available on 
modern hardware, I'll use that rather than play with some old, cranky 
piece of iron.


Others may certainly have different opinions.

--Chuck

RE: VAX 11/730

[Robert Jarratt]

And I would like to find one in the UK

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark J.
> Blair
> Sent: 15 June 2015 16:34
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: VAX 11/730
> 
> If you can find one, I'll be happy to help out with tape images and so
forth for
> your bringup!
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jun 15, 2015, at 08:32, emanuel stiebler  wrote:
> >
> > As usual, a long shot, but anybody in the list like to get rid of one?
> > Preferably Colorado ;-)

Re: FPGA tricks - Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[ben]

On 6/15/2015 10:57 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:

But alas the software does *not* support the older chips.

How old is old? I managed to get a copy of ISE10.1 downloaded,
installed and running without phoning, ringing or otherwise jumping
through hoops. That supports the Spartan 2 which has been obsolete
for some time..  If you want to play with some Spartan 2 chips
contact me off-line.


I use the other brand. I also program it in ADHL, that I can understand. 
I also use crash and burn debugging with paper listings,

Ben.

Re: FPGA tricks - Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Paul Koning]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 1:28 PM, ben  wrote:
> 
> On 6/15/2015 10:57 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:
>> But alas the software does *not* support the older chips.
>> 
>> How old is old? I managed to get a copy of ISE10.1 downloaded,
>> installed and running without phoning, ringing or otherwise jumping
>> through hoops. That supports the Spartan 2 which has been obsolete
>> for some time..  If you want to play with some Spartan 2 chips
>> contact me off-line.
> 
> I use the other brand. I also program it in ADHL, that I can understand. I 
> also use crash and burn debugging with paper listings,
> Ben.

What’s ADHL?  I know VHDL and haven’t yet learned Verilog.  I once used an old 
proprietary CPLD language with Lattice (Lattice-HDL???).  Very primitive and 
not particularly easy to use, not to mention too limited for anything beyond 
little CPLDs.

VHDL and Verilog have the benefit of being standards, and at least for VHDL 
there are open source tools available (ghdl) that work well.

paul

Re: Vaxstation 4000/60 autoboot

[Richard Loken]

On Mon, 15 Jun 2015, Marco Rauhut wrote:

> In this configutarion the system starts into SYSBOOT>.
> There i have to give the command CONTINUE to boot VMS.
> Is there any way to overide then CONTINUE command?

It sounds like your system defaults to a conversational boot which is, as
far as I recall, set by setting the least significant bit in register 5

>>> boot /r5=1

Usually, unless you are booting stand alone backup or are a cluster member,
the machine should boot with register 5 set to 0 and you only set it to 1
if you want to do a conversational boot.

-- 
   Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a father
   Athabasca University:  but you have to earn
   Athabasca, Alberta Canada   :  the title of 'daddy'"
   ** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** :  - Lynn Johnston

Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[Eric Smith]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 11:11 AM, tony duell  wrote:
> Totally useless coincidence that I noticed while doing a cryptic crossword :
>
> 'ethernet' is an anagram of 'three ten', and the original ethernet speeds 
> were three and then
> ten megabits/second.

For bonus points, what's the actual data rate of "three" megabit/s Ethernet?

Re: Vaxstation 4000/60 autoboot

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-06-15 19:04, Marco Rauhut wrote:

Hello list!

I try to autoboot my Vaxstation 4000/60.
The reason is that i want to drive the vax headless.
I have set Disk DKA300 as boot hdd in console mode.
I SET HALT 2 ( reboot).

In this configutarion the system starts into SYSBOOT>.
There i have to give the command CONTINUE to boot VMS.
Is there any way to overide then CONTINUE command?


In addition to HALT, you also have BOOT and BFLG. I can't remember which 
is what right now, but one of them is what R5 gets set to in this case, 
and you need it to be 0.


Johnny

Re: FPGA tricks - Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[ben]

On 6/15/2015 11:33 AM, Paul Koning wrote:



On Jun 15, 2015, at 1:28 PM, ben  wrote:

On 6/15/2015 10:57 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote:

But alas the software does *not* support the older chips.

How old is old? I managed to get a copy of ISE10.1 downloaded,
installed and running without phoning, ringing or otherwise
jumping through hoops. That supports the Spartan 2 which has been
obsolete for some time..  If you want to play with some Spartan 2
chips contact me off-line.


I use the other brand. I also program it in ADHL, that I can
understand. I also use crash and burn debugging with paper
listings, Ben.


What’s ADHL?  I know VHDL and haven’t yet learned Verilog.  I once
used an old proprietary CPLD language with Lattice (Lattice-HDL???).
Very primitive and not particularly easy to use, not to mention too
limited for anything beyond little CPLDs.


That was Altera's programing language. Since I have the hardware here
I have no need to move to anything else. Mind you the hardware docs
are sparse, a few datasheets on the major chips.


VHDL and Verilog have the benefit of being standards, and at least
for VHDL there are open source tools available (ghdl) that work
well.


As soon as you get real hardware, every brand is different.

"The nice thing about standards is that there are so many of them to 
choose from"



paul

Ben.

Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 10:11 , tony duell  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I'm not specifically familiar with the 11/730, but what's wrong with just 
>> cabling up an expansion box "the old 
>> fashioned way" using BC11A cable?
> 
> Nothing electtically... 
> 
> The problem is that the 11/730 mouting box (BA11-Z??) is a bit odd. The 
> boards go in from the left. Cables end up
> going downwards (either straight down or over the top of the card cage, then 
> down between the backplane and
> PSU). Then into a removeable tray on the bottom of the mouting box, round a 
> flexible plastic sheet and to another tray fixed in the rack. The idea is to 
> make the cables route nicely when yout slide the box in and out (something
> you have to do on the 11/730 to change the microcode tape or get to the main 
> circuit breaker).


That's a much better description of the 730's mechanical peculiarities than I 
came up with. I was more concerned with cable management between the two racks, 
since I have them in a tiny room where I need to roll them around to get access 
to the back (it's literally a tiny bedroom in a manufactured home... basically 
a doublewide trailer that's been fastened to a foundation after having the 
axles and drawbar cut off!). It's already tricky to roll the racks back into 
place without running over the power cables, tape drive cables, serial lines 
and power controller cable. But managing the cables in the cable tray area is 
another thing that needs to be done right. 

> 
> I am not sure how a BC11A cable would like being folded back and forth like 
> that. The official way was, I think
> a board in the Unibus out slot of the 11/730 that had 3 40 pin Berg headers 
> on it. This took 3 normal 
> 40 way ribbon cables which went round the cable routing thing and to a 
> similar board in the Unibus in slot of the
> expansion box. I think there were even bulkhead panels to route the cables to 
> another rack cabinet.

Three narrower cables sound like they would be easier to manage than one wide 
one.

Based on the hardware user's guide that I have (and which I do plan to scan and 
share), I gather that UNIBUS expansion cabinets would generally be used in a 
configuration that's in a larger rack and has both TU58 slots on the front 
panel. I haven't seen one of those in person before. My system is the 
configuration that's in one or two short racks. The main one is completely 
filled by the RL02, VAX-11/730 and R80 drives, from top to bottom. The other 
rack contains the optional TU80, with an unused bay below it. I haven't 
measured the size of that unused bay yet, but it looks like it may be tall 
enough for a UNIBUS chassis. Maybe I could adapt one of my empty PDP-11/44 
chassis boxes for use as an expansion chassis?

Or another possible use for that slot could be for my Kennedy 9610 tape drive. 
The TU80 looks like it probably has a Pertec interface, so I should be able to 
add the Kennedy drive to the chain to get more BPI options in the system. Now 
that I have a computer with a Pertec interface running, buying/building a 
Pertec adapter for my Mac or Sun doesn't seem so important. Assuming I can 
bring up networking on the VAX that is, and that I can figure out how to do 
block-level stuff under VMS.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: First VAX-11/730 VMS Boot! (was: Re: VAX-11/730 %BOOT-F-Unexpected Machine Check)

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 09:50 , Richard Loken  
> wrote:
> 
> You need to read a little tome entitled "Mastering VMS" by David W. Byron or
> maybe "The VMS User's Manual" that came with VAX/VMS Version 5.

I'll look for those. Thanks!

ANd the /NOASSIST switch worked for me. I didn't even need to pre-initialize 
the tapes. I'll probably look into doing things the more traditional batch way 
once I have multiple terminals and/or networking set up, but for now it's a 
single-user/single-terminal system.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Reviving a VAX-11/750

[Mattis Lind]

2015-06-15 17:32 GMT+02:00 Mark J. Blair :

> I wasn't aware that you are working on a 750 repair. Congratulations on
> the progress you have already made! Are you using real console tapes,
> tu58em, or something else?
>

Well. I am probably working on to much simultaneously. But this machine is
100 km away so it is just now and then I do something with it. Like this
weekend. The real console tape tape drive is in questionable status
although not tested. I tried to use the mockup I did based on the TU58
emulator by Bela Török. But I wasn't successful (I had it working
previously on an LSI-11 so I am not sure what is wrong - I guess that I
told that it was working perfectly previously - well I was wrong).

Then I compiled your fork of tu58em on github. And it worked perfect. I
didn't need to use the special vax mode that you have implemented though.
Maýbe it is required only by 11/730?

The bad thing with the 11/750 is that is has so many socketed TTL gate
array chips. Sockets are bad. And gate arrays are bad. In that sense I
think the 11/730 is better since it is AFAIK based on mostly standard off
the shelf chips.

In a way I am happy that is indeed running the BOOT58 program and several
of the diagnostics but it sure would be very interesting to know why this
Translation Buffer / Cache diagnostic fails. Were there any listings
available for the VAX diagnostics? The micro diagnostics run in the RDM
module is pretty well described in a document on bitsavers. There are no
details though. But for the native VAX-11 diagnostics I can not find
anything.


Next step would be to create a SCSI disk with a VMS installation on it.
Hopefully I manage to do that using SimH. I don't have any nice TU80 to go
with the machine so it is not possible to do an install from tape. I do
have a lead on a TU81 PLUS, but it is some 900 km away currently...

/Mattis

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 09:53 , tony duell  wrote:
> 
> 
>> I also think it is in the spirit of the computer - using what is available
>> to fix a problem at hand. I think the arduino was overkill when an attiny
>> (smaller, easier to hide) would probably serve just as well.
> 
> Would you put plastic handles on a piecc of antique furniture? Would you 
> make the seatboard for an antique longcase clock from MDF? 
> Both are easily reversable, BTW.

Sure! Temporarily and reversibly, of course, and I'd hope to replace them with 
proper stuff when possible. But to bring up an old computer system right now, 
I'll kludge in what I have available to get it running. In that respect, an 
Arduino-based baud rate generator could be considered test equipment rather 
than a component.

>> If you have the ttl logic bits lying around and know how to use them, fine.
>> Still would probably need debugging.
> 
> FWIW I have made programmable dividers on a couple of occasions recently
> (one was a 100/120 flash-per-second stroboscope, the other was the transmitter
> half of a modem to talk to TDDs). Both of them worked first time. I guess 
> it's just
> what I am used to.

Exactly. And for somebody who doesn't already have a full stock of TTL parts on 
hand, a different solution may present itself. I play with gear from WWII 
military radios up through thoroughly modern electronics. When I work on a WWII 
radio, it might be considered cheating to poke at it with my Fluke multimeter, 
Tek DSO, HP spectrum analyzer or HP synthesized signal generator (the latter 
two of which are slaved to my GPS-disciplined frequency standard), but those 
are the tools I have on hand, so those are the tools that I use.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Reviving a VAX-11/750

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 11:06 , Mattis Lind  wrote:
> 
> Well. I am probably working on to much simultaneously.

I am very guilty of that, too! :)

> Then I compiled your fork of tu58em on github. And it worked perfect. I
> didn't need to use the special vax mode that you have implemented though.
> Maýbe it is required only by 11/730?

You could probably use Don's original tu58em, then. The 730 appears to have one 
20ms timeout in a critical part of the drive initialization routine (which is 
entered repeatedly in normal operation, not just at power-up), and stock tu58em 
has a delay in that spot that is problematic. Maybe the 750 console code either 
lacks the timeout check or has a longer timeout period?


> The bad thing with the 11/750 is that is has so many socketed TTL gate
> array chips. Sockets are bad. And gate arrays are bad. In that sense I
> think the 11/730 is better since it is AFAIK based on mostly standard off
> the shelf chips.

Mostly, if I'm not mistaken (I haven't gotten too deeply involved with the PCBs 
yet). There are a number of PROMs.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

RE: Reviving a VAX-11/750

[tony duell]

> > The bad thing with the 11/750 is that is has so many socketed TTL gate
> > array chips. Sockets are bad. And gate arrays are bad. In that sense I

Years ago I was offered an 11/750 and turned it down as soon as I saw
inside the cardcage. No way would I want to maintain that mass of 
custom gate arrays

> > think the 11/730 is better since it is AFAIK based on mostly standard off
> > the shelf chips.

> Mostly, if I'm not mistaken (I haven't gotten too deeply involved with the 
> PCBs yet). 
> There are a number of PROMs.

There are 2 custom ICs in the 11/730 CPU (by 'CPU' I mean the 3 board set, DAP, 
MCT, WCS)
They are the memory ECC chips and are IIRC, the same as the ones in an 11/750, 
in other
words DEC used the same memory error correcting system. There are no custom ICs 
on
the IDT (disk controller), FP730 (floating point) or memory boards AFAIK. What 
is on Unibus
peripheral cards depends on what you have :-)

The rest of the CPU (and IDT, FP) is some TTL, an 8085, standand RAMs (SRAM and 
DRAM), 2901
bit slice ALUs, PROMs (in general the bit-dumps are in the printset, the only 
ones not there are the 
4K firmware for the 8085 console processor) and lots of PALs, again the logic 
equations for these
are in the printset. Oh yes, the TU58 controller board has a PROM on it that 
you don't get a dump of
but it is a standard TU58 controller so I assume somebody has dumped it.

So I am happy to try to keep an 11/730 running

The R80 disk drive has again, lots of TTL and analogue parts, an 8085 system 
using the Intel
8155 RAM/IO and 8355 ROM/IO chips (alas no dumps of the firmware in the prints 
), a couple
of other sets of PROMs (no dumps :-() and a few custom head switching and servo 
preamp
ICs _inside the HDA_ where you can't really replace them. My view is that the 
R80 electronics is
repairable (and I must make a dump of the ROMs) but that the HDA is likely to 
be a problem area
anyway.

There are some good 11/730 manuals on bitsavers. As well as the printsets 
(worth reading with a hackish
eye) there are technical descriptions of the CPU, Disk controller and floating 
point board. They refer to
a similar manual for the PSU which is, unfortuantely, not on bitsavers. Said 
manuals explain a lot of things
that are not totally obvious from the printset.

Things that I would love to see (but I suspect were never published) are a 
source of the 8085 firmware in
the 11/730 and a source of the standard microcode for said machine. Oh, and a 
source for the R80
firmware. 

-tony

RE: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[tony duell]

> That's a much better description of the 730's mechanical peculiarities than I 
> came up with. I was more concerned 
> with cable management between the two racks, since I have them in a tiny room 
> where I need to roll them 
> around to get access to the back (it's literally a tiny bedroom in a 
> manufactured home... basically a doublewide 
> trailer that's been fastened to a foundation after having the axles and 
> drawbar cut off!). It's already tricky to roll 
> the racks back into place without running over the power cables, tape drive 
> cables, serial lines and power 
> controller cable. But managing the cables in the cable tray area is another 
> thing that needs to be done right.

My 11/730 was totally decabled to get it to me. I think I have most of the 
original cables, and most of the 
metalwork. I've read the descriptions in the hardware manual on bitsavers and I 
am not looking forward to 
routing all those cables... Oh well

It's a nice idea for a system that is not going to change, but adding or 
removing cables for a particular
peripheral option is going to be painful. I suspect routing all the cables 
between the trays on a bench and 
then mounting the bits in the rack is OK. But since the rack part of the tray 
has to be fitted before the CPU 
box sildes, removing it every time you want to add or remove a cable is not 
practical and fiddling a cable in
or out is going to be non-trivial. So not really a good idea for the likes of 
me who is always changing things.

That's why I am thinking of adding a BA11K or something on top.





> Based on the hardware user's guide that I have (and which I do plan to scan 
> and share), I gather that UNIBUS 
> expansion cabinets would generally be used in a configuration that's in a 
> larger rack and has both TU58 slots 
> on the front panel. I haven't seen one of those in person before. My system 
> is the configuration that's in one or 
> two short racks. The main one is completely filled by the RL02, VAX-11/730 
> and R80 drives, from top to bottom. 
> The other rack contains the optional TU80, with an unused bay below it. I 
> haven't measured the size of that 
> unused bay yet, but it looks like it may be tall enough for a UNIBUS chassis. 
> Maybe I could adapt one of my 
> empty PDP-11/44 chassis boxes for use as an expansion chassis?

Are you sure this manual isn't aready on bitsavers. I have an installation 
manual and a user manual from
there that covers this stuff.

As I understand it. my 11/730 system was originally 2 racks. One was the normal 
CPU + R80 + TS05 tape
The other was a Unibus expansion box. I did get the cabling and boards to set 
this up, but not the 
second rack cabinet. Not that I really wanted it. My CPU box is the 'normal' 
one with built-in TU58s.
one on the front, one on the side.


> Or another possible use for that slot could be for my Kennedy 9610 tape 
> drive. The TU80 looks like it probably 
> has a Pertec interface, so I should be able to add the Kennedy drive to the 
> chain to get more BPI options in the 

The TS05 I have is certainly a (formatted) Pertec interface.

-tony

RE: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[tony duell]

> >
> > Would you put plastic handles on a piecc of antique furniture? Would you
> > make the seatboard for an antique longcase clock from MDF?
> > Both are easily reversable, BTW.
> 
> Sure! Temporarily and reversibly, of course, and I'd hope to replace them 
> with proper stuff when possible. But 
> to bring up an old computer system right now, I'll kludge in what I have 
> available to get it running. In that 
> respect, an Arduino-based baud rate generator could be considered test 
> equipment rather than a component.

Ah, 'there's not the time to do it properly, but there is the time to do it 
again'.

Why not do it properly first time? What is the rush in bringing up a classic 
computer? And for a test,
use the TTL pulse generator you have on your bench. Or even an NE555 astable 
(yes, with a decent capacitor
it is stable enough for a baud rate generator, I've used it). Heck, I've worked 
on machines that used a 
2 transistor astable multivibrator for the baud clock. Surely you have 2N3904s 
in the spares box?

Incidentally, if certain horologists heard you would use MDF in an antique 
clock, you would be
going home with a pendulum rod shoved where the sun don't shine ;-)

> >> If you have the ttl logic bits lying around and know how to use them, fine.
> >> Still would probably need debugging.
> >
> > FWIW I have made programmable dividers on a couple of occasions recently
> > (one was a 100/120 flash-per-second stroboscope, the other was the 
> > transmitter
> > half of a modem to talk to TDDs). Both of them worked first time. I guess 
> > it's just
> > what I am used to.
> 
> Exactly. And for somebody who doesn't already have a full stock of TTL parts 
> on hand, a different solution may 

'Full stock of TTL parts' ??? You make it sound like I am suggesting using 
lookahead carry generators,
parallel multipliers, Excess 3 to 1-of-n decoders and the like (all of which 
exist(ed) in TTL). No, I am suggesting
using some very common counter and gate ICs.

How are you going to fix a TTL-based machine like your 11/730 without spares 
and without knowing
what the ICs do?

> present itself. I play with gear from WWII military radios up through 
> thoroughly modern electronics. When I 
> work on a WWII radio, it might be considered cheating to poke at it with my 
> Fluke multimeter, Tek DSO, HP 
> spectrum analyzer or HP synthesized signal generator (the latter two of which 
> are slaved to my GPS-disciplined 
> frequency standard), but those are the tools I have on hand, so those are the 
> tools that I use.

It is cheating :-)

More seriously, tools are one thing. And had it been suggested that as a quick 
fix you took the TTL output
from a sig-gen or took the output and clipped it to TTL with a transistor 
buffer then that would IMHO be
reasonable (even if said sig-gen contained many times the number of components 
of the rest of the machine). 
But to make a custom solution that is over-complicated IMHO is the wrong way to 
do it. 

You might well inject your HP sig-gen into the mixer (first detector) stage of 
your WW2 radio to get it going
if the local oscillator had failed, or if you didn't have the right crystal, or 
whatever. But I hope you wouldn't
replace the valve (tube) based local oscillator in such a set with a digital 
synthesiser as a permanent 'repair'

-tony

Re: Vaxstation 4000/60 autoboot

[Marco Rauhut]

Now my system boots automaticaly! Thanks to all!

>>> SET BOOT DKA300: #set standard boot device
>>> SET BFLG 0  #set R5 to 0 -> That`s the missing trick!


SET HAPPY = 1 ;-)

Marco


Am 15.06.2015 um 19:45 schrieb Johnny Billquist:

On 2015-06-15 19:04, Marco Rauhut wrote:

Hello list!

I try to autoboot my Vaxstation 4000/60.
The reason is that i want to drive the vax headless.
I have set Disk DKA300 as boot hdd in console mode.
I SET HALT 2 ( reboot).

In this configutarion the system starts into SYSBOOT>.
There i have to give the command CONTINUE to boot VMS.
Is there any way to overide then CONTINUE command?


In addition to HALT, you also have BOOT and BFLG. I can't remember 
which is what right now, but one of them is what R5 gets set to in 
this case, and you need it to be 0.


Johnny

Re: Reviving a VAX-11/750

[Mark J. Blair]

On my phone right now. Might type more after lunch. 

I think I have some 730 manuals that are not yet on Bitsavers. Some original 
and some photocopies. I plan to scan all of them. 

I also may dump the console firmware PROMs at some point. I've already done 
some preliminary disassembly of the TU58 firmware. 

RE: Reviving a VAX-11/750

[tony duell]

> I also may dump the console firmware PROMs at some point. I've already done 
> some preliminary 
> disassembly of the TU58 firmware.

I am pretty sure I dumped all the PROMs and PALs in the CPU of my 11/730 (but 
not the ones in the 
R80) long before there was a bitsavers. I can see if I can find the dumps. What 
I don't have is the 
Remote Diagnostic ROMs (this was another pair of 2K*4 ROMs that plug into 
sockets on the WCS 
board and which run on the 8085). So no dumps of that.

-tony

Re: UA11s

[Guy Sotomayor]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 9:17 AM, Guy Sotomayor  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jun 15, 2015, at 9:15 AM, Guy Sotomayor  wrote:
>> 
>> For a while now, folks have been asking me about UA11s.  I've been putting 
>> them off because I'm sure I have some boards but can't find them until I 
>> unpack the "basement" of my new shop.  I figured that I'd have done that by 
>> now but it's *still* not done.  :-(
>> 
>> So, in the name of customer service, I'm going to fab another round of UA11 
>> boards (just the boards, you'll have to source all of the parts yourselves). 
>>  So that I know how big an order to place, can folks contact me (off list 
>> please: g...@shiresoft.com) on if you'd like a board (or two or ??).  I just 
>> want to have a rough idea of what the demand is (ie should I order 10, 25, 
>> 100?).
>> 
> 
> Oh, forgot to add, I'll probably be placing an order sometime in July.

Since folks have asked (I had just assumed).  As of right now the price for the 
board will be as listed on my web site 
http://www.shiresoft.com/products/PriceList.html 
.  Shipping will of course be 
extra.

I have not yet seen what the boards will cost (since it's been a few years 
since I last ordered them).  If there's a big difference, I'll let folks know 
(but that won't be until I actually know how many I'll be ordering).

TTFN - Guy

RE: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[tony duell]

> We're talking about putting in a rather complex computer to generate a
> baud rate. Are people really that handicapped when it comes to building
> hardware nowadays? Are people aware how easy baud generators are?

I've jsut turned up the M452 schematic. Has anyone else looked at it?

It's a  RC transistorised oscillator driving a /4 divider chain. 
Are you seriously telling me you don't have a junk box full of random R's and
C's and you can't change the timing components to get whatever rate you want
out of it? 

I am very worried that people would rather use a microcontroller than change
a couple of passives. Can't anyone read a schematic and think

-tony

Re: Reviving a VAX-11/750

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 11:59 , tony duell  wrote:
> 
> 
>> I also may dump the console firmware PROMs at some point. I've already done 
>> some preliminary 
>> disassembly of the TU58 firmware.
> 
> I am pretty sure I dumped all the PROMs and PALs in the CPU of my 11/730 (but 
> not the ones in the 
> R80) long before there was a bitsavers. I can see if I can find the dumps. 
> What I don't have is the 
> Remote Diagnostic ROMs (this was another pair of 2K*4 ROMs that plug into 
> sockets on the WCS 
> board and which run on the 8085). So no dumps of that.

I have three WCS cards, including the one in my machine, but none of them have 
the remote diagnostic option.

-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 11:54 , tony duell  wrote:
> Why not do it properly first time? What is the rush in bringing up a classic 
> computer? And for a test,
> use the TTL pulse generator you have on your bench.

I don't have one. I have a lot of test equipment, but mostly for RF work. If I 
needed to generate TTL pulses, I'd probably pull out a microcontroller 
development board of some sort, because that's what I have sitting around.

> Or even an NE555 astable (yes, with a decent capacitor
> it is stable enough for a baud rate generator, I've used it). Heck, I've 
> worked on machines that used a 
> 2 transistor astable multivibrator for the baud clock. Surely you have 
> 2N3904s in the spares box?

No, I have neither 2N3904s nor NE555s in my spares. I could replace an M1 
Carbine trigger spring on the spot, or a HMMWV taillamp housing, or most of the 
tubes in a 1950s US military vehicular radio, or an AR15 recoil buffer, or an 
Enfield Mk. 2 firing pin, or countless other things. I could test a diesel 
engine injector for pop-off pressure and slobber, or pull diagnostic codes from 
an M923's antilock air brake system, or check a transmitter for spurs up to 2.9 
GHz, or measure a TTL clock frequency to within 50 parts per trillion absolute 
accuracy. But I don't have a TTL signal generator. Not everybody has the same 
junkbox, background, interests, equipment or capabilities, so not everybody 
will do things the same way that you do. Should I criticize you for not having 
SAE grade 8 hardware on hand, or Bristo wrenches for working on a Collins PTO, 
or spare Packard connectors for a post-Korean vintage US military vehicle, or 
the right kind of grease for an M1 Garand bolt, or the special screwdriver for 
the tiny little center-drilled screws in a telephone patch plug, or an M1 
carbine gas piston plug wrench, all of which I have on hand? (No, I shouldn't, 
and I wouldn't.)


> Incidentally, if certain horologists heard you would use MDF in an antique 
> clock, you would be
> going home with a pendulum rod shoved where the sun don't shine ;-)

Well, maybe I'd educate them that Underwood and Remington Rand didn't just make 
typewriters before they got that pendulum rod in very far. ;)


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

RE: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM (tony duell)

[tony duell]

> Tony, thank you for your offer to supply replacement M452 Variable Clock
> modules for the console. We already have one jumpered for 110 baud for the
> Teletype. The other two M452 modules should be jumpered for 9600 baud and
> 38400 baud. The second serial port uses a M405 Crystal Clock module with a
> different pinout and clock outputs than the M452. We don't have any of
> these modules, so the three that we need should be jumpered for 110 baud,
> 9600 baud, and 38400 baud. The shipping address for the RICM is on the WWW
> page.

I am happy to design and build (at least as prototypes) these boards for you. I 
will
give my time and components free of charge. All I ask is that you cover 
reasonable
travelling and accomodation expenses for me to install and test these modules.

-tony

Re: Vaxstation 4000/60 autoboot

[william degnan]

If you mean boot directly so that you don't have to CONTINUE:

>From the >>> prompt

>>> set boot_osflags 0,0

>>> boot/1 DKA300:

Let me know if that does not work, recalling from memory...
Bill

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 1:04 PM, Marco Rauhut 
wrote:

> Hello list!
>
> I try to autoboot my Vaxstation 4000/60.
> The reason is that i want to drive the vax headless.
> I have set Disk DKA300 as boot hdd in console mode.
> I SET HALT 2 ( reboot).
>
> In this configutarion the system starts into SYSBOOT>.
> There i have to give the command CONTINUE to boot VMS.
> Is there any way to overide then CONTINUE command?
>
> Marco
>
>  * Deutsch - erkannt
>  * Englisch
>  * Deutsch
>
>  * Englisch
>  * Deutsch
>
> <#>
>

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 12:15 , tony duell  wrote:
> 
> I am very worried that people would rather use a microcontroller than change
> a couple of passives. Can't anyone read a schematic and think

The exact same argument could be made for somebody using an NE555 instead of 
discrete transistors to blink an LED, or discrete transistors instead of vacuum 
tubes to blink a neon glow lamp. For that matter, I might call somebody a 
slacker for blinking an LED with an NE555 instead of an LM3909. But LM3909s are 
no longer manufacturer or stocked. An NE555 only costs $.50 vs. about $1 for an 
ATtiny, but these days, folks under the age of 40 are a lot more likely to have 
an ATtiny (or more likely, an ATmega on an Arduino board) sitting on their 
desktop.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: Vaxstation 4000/60 autoboot

[william degnan]

if you want to save permanently you need to set this before you boot,
whatever command you use to actually boot.

>>> set boot_osflags 0,0

I thought for the 4000 specifically (colon, no equal sign)

>>> boot/r5:0

... to bypass conversational boot

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 1:35 PM, Richard Loken <
richar...@admin.athabascau.ca> wrote:

> On Mon, 15 Jun 2015, Marco Rauhut wrote:
>
> > In this configutarion the system starts into SYSBOOT>.
> > There i have to give the command CONTINUE to boot VMS.
> > Is there any way to overide then CONTINUE command?
>
> It sounds like your system defaults to a conversational boot which is, as
> far as I recall, set by setting the least significant bit in register 5
>
> >>> boot /r5=1
>
> Usually, unless you are booting stand alone backup or are a cluster member,
> the machine should boot with register 5 set to 0 and you only set it to 1
> if you want to do a conversational boot.
>
> --
>Richard Loken VE6BSV, Unix System Administrator : "Anybody can be a
> father
>Athabasca University:  but you have to earn
>Athabasca, Alberta Canada   :  the title of 'daddy'"
>** richar...@admin.athabascau.ca ** :  - Lynn Johnston
>
>

Re: Serial UNIBUS Repeater?

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 11:41 , tony duell  wrote:
> 
> My 11/730 was totally decabled to get it to me. I think I have most of the 
> original cables, and most of the 
> metalwork. I've read the descriptions in the hardware manual on bitsavers and 
> I am not looking forward to 
> routing all those cables... Oh well

Sorry to hear that it's been decabled. Take your time to route those cables 
through the bottom pan properly, and based on my experience so far, I do not 
recommend trying to route anything but flat cables through the pan area. Route 
anything round up over the top and along the folding support arm (what I've 
been calling a "gantry", but not necessarily correctly). For anything 
temporary, might as well leave the cabinet slid out and let the cable dangle. 
The 730 is nicely made for sliding in and out easily, but really not optimized 
for frequent hardware configuration changes.



> It's a nice idea for a system that is not going to change, but adding or 
> removing cables for a particular
> peripheral option is going to be painful.

Yup, you're exactly right about that.

> That's why I am thinking of adding a BA11K or something on top.

That makes sense to me, particularly if you will not be constrained by the 
original rack configuration like I am. The 730 has limited UNIBUS slots anyway, 
so might as well use an expansion rack for anything you might change frequently.


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 04:55:57PM +, tony duell wrote:
> 
> Unfortunately I believe you. Use at least a thousand times more components 
> than
> you need to.

Actually it's just two, a Teensy and a usb cable. (Sorry, I couldn't 
resist).

> 
> In general this worries me if you are restoring a vintage 
> minicomputer. How on earth can you hope to fix a TTL-built CPU without 
> knowing the common TTL chips and without having a few on-hand?

How do you suggest I learn? I believe you had a father that got you of 
to a good start and perhaps you even took a few classes.

My father was great but knew very little about electronics. And TTL on 
the minicomputer level was way out of fashion when I went to school.

Certainly no excuse, but one of the main reasons I'm in this hobby is to 
learn! And boy have I learned a lot since I got started. I'm not at your 
level yet.. but perhaps in a few years I'll be a tenth of the way there :)

It might please you to hear that the Teensy I'm talking about is in a 
socket on a perfboard together with a handfull of 74165 and 74374 which 
I've wirewrapped in proper wirewrapping sockets. It will become a USB 
interface for my 11/70 front panel. The Teensy was the simplest/cheapest 
way to get a usb interface with lots of I/O pins. (Why usb? to get a 
connection to simh on one of those newfangled Pi-things)

Cheers,
Pontus.

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Mark J. Blair]

> On Jun 15, 2015, at 11:54 , tony duell  wrote:
> Ah, 'there's not the time to do it properly, but there is the time to do it 
> again'.
> 
> Why not do it properly first time? What is the rush in bringing up a classic 
> computer?

Sorry for yet another reply, but I didn't think of this until just now: When I 
was working on getting tu58em functioning with my 730's console code a couple 
weeks ago, a few folks recommended that I build an Arduino-based emulator that 
has been known to work well. But I didn't, because I didn't have that 
particular kind of Arduino board on hand, and I wanted to get it working that 
weekend instead of the next one. And I did. :P

> 'Full stock of TTL parts' ??? You make it sound like I am suggesting using 
> lookahead carry generators,
> parallel multipliers, Excess 3 to 1-of-n decoders and the like (all of which 
> exist(ed) in TTL). No, I am suggesting
> using some very common counter and gate ICs.
> 
> How are you going to fix a TTL-based machine like your 11/730 without spares 
> and without knowing
> what the ICs do?

The same way I got my HMMWV running back in 2000. I had quite a bit of parts 
and tools on hand already from my previous work on my M543A2, and plenty of 
manuals to study. Some things I fixed with what I already had on hand. And when 
I found that the injection pump needed rebuilding, I took out the pump and 
brought it to a local Stanadyne shop. And I ordered a replacement radius rod 
end after I determined I needed it, not before. I had a lot of 1/4"-20 grade 8 
hardware in my junk box already for misc. mechanical repairs, but I still had 
to order some more for sizes I hadn't encountered before.

Back on the 730, I don't have most of the parts you mentioned on hand already 
because I've only gotten into retrocomputing within the last 2 years, and I've 
spend most of the last 30 years keeping with the times. Hint: I haven't 
designed a through-hole board at work since the early 1990s, and I didn't use 
perfboard the last time I built a GPS receiver the size of my pinky fingernail 
(not an exaggeration). ;)


-- 
Mark J. Blair, NF6X 
http://www.nf6x.net/

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 07:15:14PM +, tony duell wrote:
> 
> I am very worried that people would rather use a microcontroller than change
> a couple of passives. Can't anyone read a schematic and think

Nope. I didn't know this hobby required a degree in electrical 
engineering.

By your criteria a lot of the rare stuf behind me would be in the 
dumpster because no-one qualified was arround.

/P

Re: using new technology on old machines. Was: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Mon, Jun 15, 2015 at 04:53:01PM +, tony duell wrote:
> 
> > I also think it is in the spirit of the computer - using what is available
> > to fix a problem at hand. I think the arduino was overkill when an attiny
> > (smaller, easier to hide) would probably serve just as well.
> 
> Would you put plastic handles on a piecc of antique furniture? Would you 
> make the seatboard for an antique longcase clock from MDF? 
> Both are easily reversable, BTW.

No but I would put an electric heater in a steam engine if it meant 
restoration would progress faster.

(yes, feel free to lecture me how big that heater would have to be...)

/P