Out of my confused state after a long day: I think I still want sage to be a " free open source alternative ", and its primary audience to be typical users of the Ma's. But the Ma's have indeed evolved since 2005. Maybe it might be worth, as a start, listing how they have changed? The goal of the exercise would not be to copycat what they do, but maybe to understand how the Ma's pipelines work now. Paul
Paul-Olivier Dehaye SNF Professor of Mathematics University of Zurich skype: lokami_lokami (preferred) phone: +41 76 407 57 96 chat: pauloliv...@gmail.com twitter: podehaye freenode irc: pdehaye On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 12:36 AM, William Stein <wst...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Paul-Olivier Dehaye > <paul-olivier.deh...@math.uzh.ch> wrote: > > In the big wave of emails exchanged today, I sent this one, by accident > to > > the wrong mailing list. I recopy it below: > > > > When I went to pycon, the most important thing I learned is the > importance > > of a diverse community for the development of python. This I learned from > > the top, the board of the Python Software Foundation (cf. Lindberg's > > keynote at pycon, for instance), and saw in action absolutely everywhere. > > > > This diversity is to be understood in a very broad sense: > > - diversity of origins, > > - diversity of genders, > > - diversity of lifestyles, > > - diversity of professional activities, > > - ... > > > > I can egocentrically agree with the PSF on the fourth: the fact that > python > > is tied to so many different fields, ranging from professional software > > development world to all kinds of scientific disciplines, is a major > > selling point for many people. This was the case for me (and William), > > coming from a world of special purpose mathematical software. Relying on > a > > mature language with a diverse ecosystem encourages a wider array of > > contribution to sage. I will posit that a similar motivator was present > for > > many of us who come with previous experience in other languages. > > > > If your software community is not inclusive, you will reject individual > > contributions that might be very interesting (and remain unaware of it), > > and that pattern will lead to larger collaborations having a hard time > > working at the periphery of the core project. This will decrease the > chance > > of the core project recruiting new contributors. And we are talking about > > highly qualified contributions here, contributions that the sage project > > really does not want to end in Magma first. For instance, pick the LMFDB > or > > findstat. How much of their code is written tiptoeing around sage itself, > > and if you make an objective assessment should fit better in sage than in > > their project? Bear in mind that the software was developed itself > already > > tiptoeing around sage's core community (which might be unfair, because a > > community's tone is often defined by just a few individuals who speak > > louder). > > > > You might ask how origin, genders, lifestyles come in play here. Well, > > being inclusive starts simply by being curteous and making people feel at > > ease, and in some particular circumstances being "explicit is better than > > implicit". It might very well be that a queer person finds the python > > community very welcoming (based on objective facts such that one out of > > five tracks at pycon was aimed at promoting diversity in the community, > or > > the diversity of the speakers), that she wants to contribute back, so > much > > so that she decides to organize a python education summit, where > educators > > of students of all backgrounds and ages can share tips on how to build a > > python pipeline together, one that takes anyone between the age of 5 to > the > > age of whatever and turns them into a competent enough programmer that > the > > community is better off from it. Somehow it all works for the better, > > because you have to trust individuals that if they like a project they > will > > contribute to it in a positive way, with their own creativity. > > > > This pipeline exists, and is actively fostered by the Python Software > > Foundation as one of the most important assets of the python ecosystem. > > Contrast the shortsightedness of the academic community wrt the leaky > > pipeline for instance, with the attitude of the PSF described here. There > > is no comparison. > > > > At the same time, my reflections since pycon have led me to understand > that > > it would make sense for things to develop the way they have so far. The > PSF > > has much closer contacts to the corporate world, and it has a much > smaller > > board (which helps make bold decisions more easily than a decentralised > > system of tenured professors). > > > > How are the corporate world connections important? Well, open source > > software is the flagship of Open Innovation, a new and deep trend in > > industry that encourages opening up to the world what was considered > trade > > secrets not long ago (cf. the work of Georg von Krogh, for instance). > Open > > Innovation makes more business sense if the community that watches those > > overtures is wider, because it is then more likely to come up with new > > ideas that would have never arisen within closed walls of the company. > > Following perfect logical arguments, after some stage the only way to > grow > > a community is to make it more diverse (in the broad sense described > > above), and companies realised that too: promoting diversity also makes > > business sense. Now this idea is flowing back to open source software, > like > > the python ecosystem, and it is only to the credit of the PSF to take > this > > stance. This is very different from other languages apparently. > > > > Maybe my perspective of the python community was skewed by the fact that > > pycon is a US-centric conference. I would be curious to see how it > compares > > to EuroPython for those aspects, but will be unable to attend. > > > > All this is especially true I would think for software like sage, which > > aims to be a replacement to the large CAS software companies. Look at all > > the outreach efforts that have "Wolfram" in their name. I am not saying > > that the sage core community should develop a copy of the whole Wolfram > > ecosystem. What I am advocating is to understand that beyond sage there > is > > a wider ecosystem of people who are devoted to goals around sage (LMFDB, > > sage-combinat, findstat, sagemathcloud, the failed sage-explorer,...), > > possibly different from yours but that active mutual cooperation would be > > beneficial. While 90% of the code of these projects will not belong to > > sage, it is important that their extension points do sit in the code and > > are thought through, because these extension points welcome creativity > and > > other innovators to build cool stuff on top of sage, and make it easier > for > > the core contributors to help them too, with epsilon additional effort. > > > > Finally, for the specific context of how successful mathematical > > communities work together, I would advise anyone to read papers by Ursula > > Martin and her coauthors. > > In light of all that, what do you think of the Sage mission statement? > "Mission: Creating a viable free open source alternative to Magma, > Maple, Mathematica and Matlab." It's meant to be technically very > inclusive, and was something I made up back in 2005. It might be > worth revisiting it, especially in light of your remarks about Wolfram > outreach above, my own recent push to create something > (SageMathCloud), which is certainly different than just "an > alternative to Ma's", etc. > > I'm also very +1 to diversity, reaching out to industry, etc. > > -- William > > -- > William Stein > Professor of Mathematics > University of Washington > http://wstein.org > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-combinat-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-combinat-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-combinat-de...@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-combinat-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. 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