Thanks David for your suggestions! I've now created a wiki page at https://github.com/sagemath/sage/wiki/NEP-29:-Python-version-strategy that on the one hand clarifies a few questions that were raised before and on the other hand summarizes the discussion we had so far. I tried to add all points raised as objectively as possible, but could have easily missed some arguments and misinterpreted others. So please have a look a the page and edit it as you see fit. I propose that major additions or changes to the wiki page are first discussed here on the mailing list so that we don't end in a edit war.
On Tuesday, 27 June 2023 at 19:30:46 UTC+2 David Roe wrote: > Thanks for restarting the discussion Tobias. From my perspective, there > are several things that can move this conversation forward. > 1. More clarity on how NEP-29 will be implemented in Sage. In particular, > that policy just guarantees a particular time frame during which Python > *will* be supported, but doesn't describe what happens afterward. Once > the window is passed, is someone (who?) going to proactively update build > scripts to prohibit the old version of python? Or does it just grant > permission for people to use features that are not available in the old > Python, and merging such a PR will also involve updating the build > requirements? > 2. A wiki page. Currently, the arguments for and against this change are > pretty scattered. Tobias (and Dima), could you create a wiki page where > pros and cons are summarized? Once you do, I would suggest running it by > Matthias, since a lot of the arguments against it have come from him. > 3. A timeline. I'm going to suggest three weeks for discussion, with > voting starting July 18 and ending one week later on July 25 (anywhere on > earth). I know that there have been conversations on and off about this > issue for a while, but I think having some time dedicated to focused > discussion may help others feel like they have a full grasp of the issue. > 4. Additional people getting involved in the conversation. Tobias, Dima > and Matthias all clearly feel quite strongly about this issue and have been > involved in it for a while. Other people can hopefully bring some more > perspectives, suggesting compromises or giving additional perspectives. In > the end, we *need* other people to vote, so that Tobias, Dima and > Matthias can get some resolution on this. > 5. A moderator. Several people asked me to moderate last time, and I'll > do my best for this discussion. I'll start with a few requests for > everyone involved. > * First, I think multiple short, quick rebuttals are not a good idea in a > heated email discussion. We have three weeks. Take the time to collect > your thoughts and respond to the whole of an argument. If appropriate, add > things to the pros and cons on the wiki page. Most of all, take the time > to read what you've written and think about how it will be received by both > the people you're arguing with and the thousands of people subscribed to > sage-devel. > * Second, take a step back and think about what you can do to make this > environment more welcoming and pleasant for everyone. I know several > people involved have said that the issues we're discussing, and the way > we're discussing them, have lessened their desire to contribute to Sage, > and I think that would be a tragedy. All three of you are critical members > of this community, and I don't want to lose you. I'm not going to > prescribe anything specific, but I think it would help if everyone can > think about ways to show that you value the people involved, even if we > have specific technical disagreements. > * Third, while work goes forward on a summarizing wiki page, I'd like to > hear suggestions from others about how to make the process better. Feel > free to email the list or write to me directly. > > We made it through the github discussion, and we can make it through > this. Stay positive. > David > > On Tue, Jun 27, 2023 at 10:14 AM Tobias Diez <tobias...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> Any suggestions on how to move forward now? Should I simply open a new >> vote or are there still open questions or a need to discuss certain aspects >> of the proposal? >> >> On Sunday, 4 June 2023 at 19:49:23 UTC+2 G. M.-S. wrote: >> >>> >>> For the benefit of all of us (including Dima, Matthias and Tobias), >>> would it be possible to start afresh, without any reference whatsoever to >>> these 3 linked discussions? >>> >>> Also, would it be possible for David to act somehow as a "moderator"? >>> >>> Best, >>> >>> Guillermo >>> >>> On Sun, 4 Jun 2023 at 17:37, Tobias Diez <tobias...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>>> On Saturday, 3 June 2023 at 19:31:18 UTC+8 Marc Culler wrote: >>>> >>>> That is what always happens when people try to force a vote before >>>> there has been a discussion of sufficient depth to allow a consensus to >>>> form. >>>> >>>> >>>> To clarify since this point came up before: The discussion about this >>>> topic started over two years ago in >>>> https://github.com/sagemath/sage/issues/30384, then this February >>>> continued on the sage mailing list ( >>>> https://groups.google.com/g/sage-devel/c/j1cwbTU8aOU/m/2sTiwdKPBQAJ) >>>> and in April in the PR https://github.com/sagemath/sage/pull/35403. >>>> However, only Matthias, Dima and me joined the discussion. Since we three >>>> couldn't come to a consensus, I opened the vote in order to get the input >>>> from the broader sage community (following advice from David and William). >>>> >>> >>> >> -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "sage-devel" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to sage-devel+...@googlegroups.com. >> > To view this discussion on the web visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/feaeb36f-129b-4c18-9789-6cc97c1556a9n%40googlegroups.com >> >> <https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/feaeb36f-129b-4c18-9789-6cc97c1556a9n%40googlegroups.com?utm_medium=email&utm_source=footer> >> . >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/sage-devel/3ddbcf6f-0f5d-468a-b312-038db3b054cfn%40googlegroups.com.
