Yeah, explaining that to an end user isn't ideal. If the generator is started manually, it should just work... always... without settings changes.
That's the big problem I see here. The only way around that seems to be using the Grid input, but if that doesn't work with AGS, it's often not a viable solution. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 12:04 PM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > The "Force Charge " function will start the charger from the > generator port or the Grid port (if Grid charging is enabled) It might take > up to 5 min to qualify the power but you can manually start a charge cycle > anytime with this function. > > On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 8:50 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Honestly, I'm not sure exactly how it works myself. My understanding is >> that if the inverter is OFF due to a low voltage disconnect or otherwise, >> incoming voltage on the generator smart load port will not close the relay >> and start to charge the battery and power the loads. That defeats >> the purpose of a dedicated generator input. >> >> I do not have a workaround. On one site, I have the battery BMS >> controlling generator start/stop, with the generator on the AIO's grid >> inputs. This is less than ideal, but with no closed-loop communication with >> the inverter for this battery, it's the best option right now. I would >> love to have the AIO start the generator at a voltage that is close to >> 20%, but then also have the battery AGS start the generator as a failsafe >> if the SOC becomes dangerously low (if the inverter doesn't trigger the AGS >> based on voltage early enough). >> >> >> Jason Szumlanski >> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >> >> >> On Thu, Jul 10, 2025 at 8:19 AM Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >>> Hi Jason, >>> >>> This seems like a big problem. Curious if you have found a manual work >>> around for this? >>> >>> Is it possible to force the inverter on, even briefly to start accepting >>> a charge from the generator? It would be nice if the gen relay would latch >>> to incoming voltage but the hardware may not allow that. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wed, Jul 9, 2025 at 5:40 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>> >>>> Is there any update on functionality to use the AIO's AGS when the >>>> generator is on the Grid input? >>>> >>>> This is really needed. The fact that the generator smart load input >>>> doesn't turn the inverters on and charge the batteries when a generator is >>>> present after a low voltage cutout is really problematic. >>>> >>>> >>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>> >>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 11:28 AM William Bryce via RE-wrenches < >>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> When using the AC input the substitute to use the AGS is to use an >>>>> external AGS Start relay. There are many customers using big >>>>> generators through the 100 Amp input with no issues. There is a request to >>>>> modify the AGS to work with the 100 amp AC in. >>>>> >>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 11:09 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Thank you for this information. Regarding the statement, "You can >>>>>> fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it is available >>>>>> at >>>>>> all times, but you will lose the AGS..." >>>>>> >>>>>> I don't think MNS tech support knows this. I'm pretty sure Rick told >>>>>> me no, and I know that Ronald unequivocally told me it was not allowed. >>>>>> >>>>>> What if the generator was connected to the grid input, but you still >>>>>> programmed the generator Smart Load output for a generator, would the AGS >>>>>> work in that case? Or if there is "Grid" voltage when the generator >>>>>> starts, >>>>>> would that cause the AGS to disengage and then the process would repeat >>>>>> itself in a loop? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025, 10:57 AM William Bryce < >>>>>> wlbr...@pineridgeproducts.com> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Everyone, Please forgive MNS for not promptly responding to the >>>>>>> questions. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Midnite Solar does not currently have an official poster for the >>>>>>> Wrenches List. Per the rules of the list, MNS is working to get a new >>>>>>> Rep >>>>>>> to work with the installers as we always have. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To address the questions that were fielded: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The solar array will continue to power the system and dark start the >>>>>>> inverter if needed. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If you use the machine you can test. Just turn off ALL the Power, >>>>>>> including the DC in from the battery. The screen will be dark and when >>>>>>> you >>>>>>> turn on the PV input the machine will go into standby. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If the machine shuts down due to a LVCO then it will auto restart >>>>>>> (Via PV input) UNLESS the "Min Initiation Startup (off Grid)" setting >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> not reached. It will charge the battery until that setting is reached >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> turn on the inverter. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> If the Shutdown was because of a PV Insulation *Fault* or some >>>>>>> other critical ESS fault it will not restart until that issue is >>>>>>> corrected. >>>>>>> You can blame that on the UL code writers as it is REQUIRED to get the >>>>>>> UL >>>>>>> certifications. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We also do full generator passthrough just like all other AIO's. And >>>>>>> yes as pointed out several times on the forum the relay for the >>>>>>> generator is not closed, as the inverter qualifies the generator before >>>>>>> it >>>>>>> closes. The reason is that we can use the PV input and the generator at >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> same time. But, it is monitored so you do not blow us the generator if >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> PV exceeds the Gen input and the load or charging drops. Is this >>>>>>> perfect? >>>>>>> No, it needs some work. The current AGS is basic and needs work. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You can fully use the 100 Amp AC input for Generator input, and it >>>>>>> is available at all times, but you will lose the AGS. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Everyone at MNS is taking notes of all the issues with the Current >>>>>>> AIO's (all brands including our AIO), and the state of China made / >>>>>>> China >>>>>>> supported inverters. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> MNS will be looking to reset the market soon with a New, US Made, >>>>>>> Designed, and supported AIO (not just assembled from China parts like >>>>>>> some >>>>>>> others with the same firmware). Using proven SiC Fet technology (Rosie >>>>>>> inverter technology). With a full set of controls for LA batteries, and >>>>>>> Generator, just like in the old days. Touch Screen programming, and self >>>>>>> hosted web server remote accesses and control, not data sent to the >>>>>>> cloud. >>>>>>> If you worry about support, and security, then this inverter will >>>>>>> address >>>>>>> these needs. All the firmware is written in house, PCB boards populated >>>>>>> inhouse, and components origins verified. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We will not say more because of MNS bad reputation of *announcing >>>>>>> and not delivering*, so in the next 6 months, we will have >>>>>>> something great to offer. We are going back to our Roots (Trace, >>>>>>> Outback, and Magnum, can all be linked back to this team). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On behalf of Midnite Solar >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wed, May 14, 2025 at 9:56 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> That is the idea, but the generator startup is not guaranteed >>>>>>>> (i.e.out of fuel, battery dead, etc). It's not a failsafe solution. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> The AIO really needs a dedicated GEN input that is not controlled >>>>>>>> with a NO relay. Or let us use the Grid input for the generator. The >>>>>>>> generator input logic is severely flawed. If there is an AC source, it >>>>>>>> should be able to charge the battery without user intervention. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025, 5:25 PM Dave Tedeyan via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Jason, >>>>>>>>> Cant you just make the AGS turn on the generator before the >>>>>>>>> inverter gets to the LBCO? Maybe this is more difficult if you do not >>>>>>>>> have >>>>>>>>> closed loop comms and the SOC drifts. I am just working through my >>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>> Midnite AIO setup now, so I cannot speak to the nuances of how it >>>>>>>>> will work >>>>>>>>> with that yet. >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Dave >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 4:01 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >>>>>>>>> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> That has not been my experience. I have had to manually reboot >>>>>>>>>> Solark systems numerous time off grid. If there is snow on the >>>>>>>>>> array or >>>>>>>>>> otherwise low PV output for a few days, the no load draw of the BMS >>>>>>>>>> then >>>>>>>>>> takes the battery voltage low enough to shut the battery off. This >>>>>>>>>> would >>>>>>>>>> be a different situation with a knowledgeable owner onsite full >>>>>>>>>> time, but >>>>>>>>>> for vacation properties, it will go into complete shut down, not >>>>>>>>>> coming >>>>>>>>>> back. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Which gets into the manual and tech support for Solark: its >>>>>>>>>> really not clear what the different settings do, and how they >>>>>>>>>> interact. >>>>>>>>>> I'm sure there are engineers that know, but they aren't at Tech >>>>>>>>>> support. At >>>>>>>>>> least you can change the programming on the touch screen, and you >>>>>>>>>> don't >>>>>>>>>> have to get a quirky app up off grid to do basic changes. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> BTW, what happens when the developers quit keeping the App >>>>>>>>>> updated, 10 years from now, and you can't access the programming? >>>>>>>>>> Planned >>>>>>>>>> Obsolescence? That 33 yr old Trace Inverter is still doing its >>>>>>>>>> job..... >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 11:33 AM, MDElectricSolar via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We have been using the Solark inverter for GTBB and off grid >>>>>>>>>> clients. In the case of low battery cut out the solar does stay >>>>>>>>>> alive in >>>>>>>>>> the background and will recharge the batteries when the sun comes >>>>>>>>>> out the >>>>>>>>>> next day and turn itself back on and provide AC power output. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Michael D Nelson >>>>>>>>>> MD Electric & Solar, Inc. >>>>>>>>>> 707-684-0064 mobile >>>>>>>>>> 707-884-1862 office >>>>>>>>>> www.mdelectricsolar.com >>>>>>>>>> www.facebook.com/mdelectricandsolar >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On May 12, 2025, at 10:13 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches >>>>>>>>>> <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >>>>>>>>>> <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> So the bypass switch gets the house power on, and I too always >>>>>>>>>> recommend a hard bypass switch. However, you still need a 48 v power >>>>>>>>>> supply >>>>>>>>>> to get the battery system back up, and that's becoming a serious >>>>>>>>>> pain in my >>>>>>>>>> aging backside. Until AIOs with Li+ batteries, lead acid would have >>>>>>>>>> enough >>>>>>>>>> voltage to get the charge controller to come back on, and eventually >>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>> customer could get the inverter back on too. No special trip out. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We need an independent circuit that would sense array voltage, >>>>>>>>>> and wake up the battery, so it could take a charge: a backup battery >>>>>>>>>> for >>>>>>>>>> the offgrid battery. Without that, AIOs and Li+ batteries are not >>>>>>>>>> self >>>>>>>>>> healing like Lead Acid. We are going backwards fast, but with an >>>>>>>>>> amazing >>>>>>>>>> amount of new Chinese technology driving the jalopy in reverse. >>>>>>>>>> (Danger >>>>>>>>>> Will Robinson) >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Ray Walters >>>>>>>>>> Remote Solar >>>>>>>>>> On 5/12/2025 10:54 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> We always recommend a transfer switch to bypass the inverter and >>>>>>>>>> send generator power to the loads. Most clients take us up on it. For >>>>>>>>>> retrofits, sometimes there can be space limitations, however. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> As for the function of the AIO, there is no integrated mechanical >>>>>>>>>> bypass, and since there is an internal relay controlling the >>>>>>>>>> generator input (or smart load output on that breaker), I think the >>>>>>>>>> default >>>>>>>>>> function is for the relay to open when the inverter turns off. AC >>>>>>>>>> voltage >>>>>>>>>> on the load side of the breaker does not close the relay and turn the >>>>>>>>>> inverter back on automatically. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>> NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) >>>>>>>>>> Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 >>>>>>>>>> Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, May 12, 2025 at 9:49 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via >>>>>>>>>> RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> All sounds wrong to me. Call Midnite. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Typically there is a AC bypass mechanical switch that allows the >>>>>>>>>>> gen to bypass the inverter and power loads. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar >>>>>>>>>>> "we go where powerlines don't" >>>>>>>>>>> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>https://offgridsolar1.com/ >>>>>>>>>>> <https://offgridsolar1.com/> <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/> >>>>>>>>>>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net <offgridso...@sti.net> >>>>>>>>>>> text 209 813 0060* >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On 2025-05-12 9:29 am, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like there is a flaw >>>>>>>>>>> in the logic for how generator integration works with this product. >>>>>>>>>>> Unlike >>>>>>>>>>> some of the other AIOs, you can't put the generator on the Grid >>>>>>>>>>> input in an >>>>>>>>>>> off-grid scenario. You have to use the Generator smart load >>>>>>>>>>> breaker, which >>>>>>>>>>> isn't a dedicated generator input, but a programmable circuit. This >>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>> problematic because it seemingly has a normally open internal relay >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> closes only when the inverter is ON. At least, that's how it seems >>>>>>>>>>> to work >>>>>>>>>>> in my limited experience. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Why is this a problem? If the battery capacity drops below the >>>>>>>>>>> low voltage cutoff, the inverter turns off. You have to turn the >>>>>>>>>>> inverter >>>>>>>>>>> ON for the generator relay to close so you can charge the battery, >>>>>>>>>>> but >>>>>>>>>>> since the battery is too low, the inverter won't turn on. You would >>>>>>>>>>> have to >>>>>>>>>>> reprogram the inverter to drop the cutoff voltage/SOC below the >>>>>>>>>>> current >>>>>>>>>>> battery state. For people who do not want to use AGS, or if AGS >>>>>>>>>>> fails to >>>>>>>>>>> start the generator for any reason, getting the generator to charge >>>>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>>>> battery manually is no easy task. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Moreover, turning the generator on manually when the inverter is >>>>>>>>>>> in an OFF state will not pass power to the loads, and will not turn >>>>>>>>>>> the inverter ON automatically. You have to get the inverter turned >>>>>>>>>>> ON >>>>>>>>>>> somehow so that the generator power can pass through to the loads. >>>>>>>>>>> And >>>>>>>>>>> since the startup sequence for this inverter is very quirky, >>>>>>>>>>> non-intuitive, >>>>>>>>>>> and unreliable, that makes the problem even worse. I'm not sure if >>>>>>>>>>> you can >>>>>>>>>>> even turn the inverter ON when there is generator input and the >>>>>>>>>>> battery is >>>>>>>>>>> too low. I don't think you can because the relay is open and the >>>>>>>>>>> inverter >>>>>>>>>>> doesn't even see generator voltage when it is in an OFF state. >>>>>>>>>>> This seems like a serious oversight and a reason to go with one >>>>>>>>>>> of the other AIOs on the market. I believe the Sol-Ark 15K and EG4 >>>>>>>>>>> 18kPV >>>>>>>>>>> will both immediately power loads and start charging when the >>>>>>>>>>> generator is >>>>>>>>>>> on, regardless of whether the generator is connected to the Grid or >>>>>>>>>>> Generator input. Any AC input immediately passes through to the >>>>>>>>>>> loads. This >>>>>>>>>>> is because those inverters stay "on" when a low battery condition >>>>>>>>>>> is met, >>>>>>>>>>> and they simply stop using the battery to invert power if the >>>>>>>>>>> battery >>>>>>>>>>> conditions do not allow it, based on the settings. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> The logic of the Midnite AIOs turning "off" when battery cutoff >>>>>>>>>>> is met and opening the generator relay doesn't make sense to me. Am >>>>>>>>>>> I wrong >>>>>>>>>>> about how this works? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Jason Szumlanski >>>>>>>>>>> Principal Solar Designer >>>>>>>>>>> Florida Solar Design Group >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> There are two list archives for searching. 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When one doesn't work, try >>>>> the other: >>>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>>> >>>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>>> >>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>>> >>>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>>> the other: >>>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> List rules & etiquette: >>>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>>> >>>> Check out or update participant bios: >>>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>>> >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> >>> >>> >>> Mac Lewis >>> >>> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates* >>> _______________________________________________ >>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >>> >>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> Change listserver email address & settings: >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try >>> the other: >>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ >>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >>> >>> List rules & etiquette: >>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm >>> >>> Check out or update participant bios: >>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance >> >> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org >> >> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org >> >> Change listserver email address & settings: >> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org >> >> There are two list archives for searching. 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