David: Fascinating and to the point. Your narrative begs the question: What is that nickname?
William Miller Miller Solar.com 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com On Tue, Feb 18, 2025 at 5:16 PM David Buckner via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We are either using Solar Edge or designing and procuring to UL3741 to > meet rapid shut down without MLPE. Be careful cost wise with larger roofs > where the AC runs from inverters that are far away and next to their > subarray are resulting in larger wire sizes. Still, it’s worth it to sleep > a little better at night. > > > > The manufacturers of MLPE’s were justifiably not ready to deliver safe > products to the industry at the scale needed. Is there a product that will > safely last 25 years under these conditions? 90+ degrees on the roof that > day and 20 degrees out there today. I always remember John Wiles saying > forget about the modules working for 25 years, worry about the BOS. And > for the most part that’s generally accurate. > > > > In our specific fire last year: > > 1. Firefighters didn’t go on the roof (and they apparently do not in > such situations here) but rather sprayed it from two separate locations. > 2. Firefighters didn’t shut off the solar AC disconnect which was > external and accessible. Eventually it was shut off by the owner when they > realized the system was still operating. > 3. The next morning when the sun came up and the damaged array started > arcing and burning, they sprayed it for another couple of hours. > 4. After a structural engineer inspected the decking, we were finally > allowed on the roof to make the situation as safe as possible electrically > which consisted of isolating down to every module in damaged areas and > every string that wasn’t damaged. Otherwise the damaged RSDs weren’t > making anything safer. > 5. Investigation by multiple insurance companies’ fire expert teams > followed but not for two weeks. > 6. The teams knew each other from chasing these types of fires across > the country and they had a nickname for the RSD on this roof. > 7. $3M in damage was the last number I heard. Thankfully no immediate > injuries, other than psychological, but that smoke is absolutely horrible. > 8. Here is a link to the fire: > > https://www.google.com/search?q=roof+fire+secaucus+NJ&rlz=1C1ASVC_enUS948US955&oq=roof+fire+secaucus+NJ&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOTIHCAEQIRigATIHCAIQIRigATIHCAMQIRigATIHCAQQIRigATIHCAUQIRirAtIBCDUwNjZqMGo0qAIAsAIB&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:2ee587e2,vid:7Vw-5alnbKM,st:0 > > > > We’re seeing insurance companies sending questionnaires out to our PV > system owners asking about maintenance agreements, type of equipment, etc. > One of the questions inevitably is whether there are module level shut down > devices installed. I wonder who is helping them out with that > questionnaire. And at some point will the presence of MLPE’s be viewed as > positive or negative when writing the insurance policy for that building? > > > > David > > > > > > David Buckner > > President > > Solar Energy Systems > > 917-848-0215 > > 718-389-1545 > > dbuck...@solaresystems.com > > www.solaresystems.com > <https://us.content.exclaimer.net/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.solaresystems.com%2F&tenantid=sjl0rdWaEe6F-WBFvdNAXQ&templateid=933619bad6e2ee11aaf06045bdd55b16&excomponentid=W0znjuLBICxfJOZwpEisk1w6Uz7kRcz8RFh31bsCZu4&excomponenttype=Link&signature=oLHGWCDHeQYPxuVijopczXguVIz2A9gWA29emAtwvdbqV2XsAnsbVfPJR3OQHtcxck-4zeNWEHrxwAX_LXCUOBXnvLDZkSB3Ue09sLzQcUNKGxMLclBt5peel7iiM1neHKnk8UctTRnOeUfIagifjZaGWicP4Wi23eUaL-JSNh0iUlYWH5Y2kOEt_QGU-R6LtdhPzR8aNOqjq8ttGuksaSFX3YQorUNiBDkXDGXmmCSiiNgljGMekvYiEvoXMsCe_CC1DpnfHsaH45ZBD8L442uACHbkOuyDJ-IG20zpBYXGK3TzDh-GW4efLwZfi6MUcJohrIgQQag5JDhSynWoDQ&v=1&imprintMessageId=2334a7e3-dde4-4a79-bd85-9343a7155fa9> > > 41 > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/41+Box+Street+2nd+Floor,+Brooklyn,+NY+11222?entry=gmail&source=g> > Box > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/41+Box+Street+2nd+Floor,+Brooklyn,+NY+11222?entry=gmail&source=g> > Street > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/41+Box+Street+2nd+Floor,+Brooklyn,+NY+11222?entry=gmail&source=g> > 2nd > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/41+Box+Street+2nd+Floor,+Brooklyn,+NY+11222?entry=gmail&source=g> > Floor, > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/41+Box+Street+2nd+Floor,+Brooklyn,+NY+11222?entry=gmail&source=g> > Brooklyn, > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/41+Box+Street+2nd+Floor,+Brooklyn,+NY+11222?entry=gmail&source=g> > NY > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/41+Box+Street+2nd+Floor,+Brooklyn,+NY+11222?entry=gmail&source=g> > 11222 > <https://www.google.com/maps/search/41+Box+Street+2nd+Floor,+Brooklyn,+NY+11222?entry=gmail&source=g> > > The information contained in this email message, including any attached > files transmitted, is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is > intended for the sole use of the individual(s) named above. If you are the > intended recipient, be aware that your use of any confidential or personal > information may be restricted by state and federal privacy laws. If you, > the reader of this message, are not the intended recipient, you are hereby > notified that you should not further disseminate, distribute or forward > this email message. Email transmission cannot be guaranteed to be secured > or error-free as information could be intercepted, corrupted, lost, > destroyed, arrive late or incomplete, or contain viruses. The sender > therefore does not accept liability for any errors or omissions in the > contents of this message, which arise as a result of this e-mail > transmission. If you have received this email in error, please notify the > sender and immediately delete the material from your computer system. Thank > you. > > *From:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> *On > Behalf Of *Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Monday, February 17, 2025 1:26 PM > *To:* RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > *Cc:* Rebekah Hren <rebekah.h...@gmail.com> > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] RSS: Is it necessary? > > > > CAUTION: External Email. > > I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both > been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code > cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The > International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most influential > labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and yes they do > have had a lot to say about this issue. > > > > This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS > devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing - though > on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out how to make > safe and effective MLPE. > > > I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for > about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both off-grid > and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS. SMA for > example is very present and working hard at revisions on that standard > right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in removing 690.12 > requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the array boundary > voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So please keep asking > manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to UL3741 and design > products to meet the standard. > > > > Best > > Rebekah > > Licensed Electrical Contractor > NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ 091209-85 > > Tel: 336.266.8800 > > > > > > On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on > this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a dedicated > group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making Panel for > instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the very least we > need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be less vs more. > > > > Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not that > we follow their electrical codes/ideas…just curious)??? > > > > > > > > Amos Post > Integrity Energy > W 802.763.7023 > C 802.291.2188 > ienergyVT.com <http://www.ienergyvt.com/> > > Facebook <https://www.facebook.com/integrityenergyllp?ref=hl> > > > > On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > It seems anecdotal until it happens to you. > > My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a “No” > in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that. > > I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a > huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be > terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it worked > consistently I wouldn't protest. But *all* the products I've tried have > been trouble. > > William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate > comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars > starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting their > tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts save about > 15,000 lives per year. > > Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid > fairytale scenario - “A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the > daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls into > live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that the > heavy-duty fireman’s suit is punctured. Electricity conducts through the > axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC circuit is > completed through their body.” > > As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let’s > be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever happening in > all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has never helped anyone > yet, and probably never will... How many fires can be attributed to RSD? > How much property damage has occurred because of these fires? > > The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire > disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens > endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors, shoppers, > bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't doing a good job > right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable electronics on the roof. > I will stick my neck out and admit that installers are not always perfect. > Humans make mistakes - sometimes in initial construction, and sometimes > during repair and maintenance (i.e. when hunting down failed RSD's which > happens far more than it should). > > At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand > reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore you > until you go away, or until you sue them. > > This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing > fires every year. > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller <will...@millersolar.com> > wrote: > > David, Ray: > > > > I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have installed > and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and micro-inverters (which > are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have had failures. We don’t > know statically how serious this problem is—the posts here are purely > anecdotal. > > > > We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire > fighters. > > > > Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude that > RSS is all problem and no benefit. > > > > To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available is > not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install airbags > because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing problems with > the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement. That observation > does not logically conclude the safety requirement is not valuable. > > > > I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety systems > are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of them do. I > am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air bags. I have > also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to work more safely > on solar circuits. > > > > Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response > community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is > really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good > equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy > solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the > code requirements. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > William Miller > > > > Miller Solar > > 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 > > 805-438-5600 > > www.millersolar.com > > CA Lic. 773985 > > > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On > Behalf Of *david quattro via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* david quattro > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience > > > > RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil > disobedience? > > I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and > refused, as a united industry ‘brotherhood.’ WE are the ones stuck with the > bullshit in the aftermath. > > I’m not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group: > Does anyone have *good* experience with RSD? i.e. you’re really glad > RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you’re glad and happy to > comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for the > rest of your career? > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of > equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the roof. > Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD? How many fire > fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that they could hack > through the array to vent the roof? > > I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the roof > with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do their > venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just another > effort to block the wider adoption of solar. > > When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to > amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications, > water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our > customers' lives better. > > Ray Walters > Remote Solar > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > > > _______________________________________________ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. 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