Get the offgrid permit (PRETTY RARE) and then remove anything that
makes the system less reliable.
We use to be concerned with losing insurance offgrid but the cost is so
high now that we (offgrid folks) often self insure.
Do anything that can make it easier for a fire crew, if they stay. They
often leave after you do.
Nothing like coming home from a trip and having spoiled food or worse.
Pretty cynical from electronics and people doing dumb things!
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
[4]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [5] [4]
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060
On 2025-02-17 1:24 pm, Glenn via RE-wrenches wrote:
Too much 'fear over facts'.
-Glenn
On Feb 17, 2025 13:26, Rebekah Hren via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
I read the wrenches post regularly, as does Brian Mehalic. We have both
been on CMP-4 (responsible for Article 690) for the past three code
cycles. I believe a few other CMP members probably read too. The
International Association of Firefighters ("largest and most
influential labor unions in North America") is represented on CMP-4 and
yes they do have had a lot to say about this issue.
This is definitely not the first time we have heard that certain RS
devices are on balance causing more trouble than they are curing -
though on the other hand some manufacturers have certainly figured out
how to make safe and effective MLPE.
I'm a big fan of UL3741, I have been on that UL technical committee for
about 5 years, and it is the best approach I see to expand both
off-grid and grid-interactive solutions that don't require MLPE for RS.
SMA for example is very present and working hard at revisions on that
standard right now. At this point I can't see us having any luck in
removing 690.12 requirements, except perhaps to replace the inside the
array boundary voltage limit with only option as 3741 listing). So
please keep asking manufacturers (inverter/rack) to pay attention to
UL3741 and design products to meet the standard.
Best
Rebekah
Licensed Electrical Contractor
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) 091209-85
Tel: 336.266.8800
On Mon, Feb 17, 2025 at 10:59 AM Amos Post via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
Seems like there has been talk of rescinding RSD requirements before on
this forum. It also seems that it might gain some traction if a
dedicated group of installers spoke up to the right people (Code Making
Panel for instance) and put some time into it. I agree that at the
very least we need reliable RSD equipment, and my preference would be
less vs more.
Does anybody know if any sort of RSD is being required in Europe (not
that we follow their electrical codes/ideas...just curious)???
Amos Post
Integrity Energy
W 802.763.7023
C 802.291.2188
ienergyVT.com [1]
Facebook [2]
On Feb 17, 2025, at 12:30 PM, david quattro via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
It seems anecdotal until it happens to you.
My mention of civil disobedience has been answered clearly with a "No"
in this forum, and I'm fine to hear that.
I'll clarify a few points as to why I honestly think RSD has been a
huge and costly mistake. I genuinely think RSD requirements should be
terminated immediately. If the technology were more robust and if it
worked consistently I wouldn't protest. But all the products I've tried
have been trouble.
William, respectfully your analogy to seat belts is not an appropriate
comparison to Rapid Shutdown. Seat-belts were required in all new cars
starting in 1968 because there was statistical evidence supporting
their tremendous efficacy in saving human life. Currently seat belts
save about 15,000 lives per year.
Contrasting to RSD: was implemented because of the following paranoid
fairytale scenario - "A firefighter is on a burning solar roof in the
daytime, and wearing a metal axe at their hip. the poor guy/gal falls
into live solar glass, and shatters it. The fall is so forceful that
the heavy-duty fireman's suit is punctured. Electricity conducts
through the axe blade, through the suit, contacts the skin, and a DC
circuit is completed through their body."
As far as I know, this has never happened once anywhere on earth. Let's
be honest - this scenario has an incredibly low chance of ever
happening in all the future of humanity. So considering that RSD has
never helped anyone yet, and probably never will... How many fires can
be attributed to RSD? How much property damage has occurred because of
these fires?
The best path to safety for firefighters is by preventing fire
disasters in the first place. Fires spread. Any fire that happens
endangers property owners, tenants, business owners, neighbors,
shoppers, bystanders, nearby forests, etc. RSD manufacturers aren't
doing a good job right now, so we are seeing low quality unreliable
electronics on the roof. I will stick my neck out and admit that
installers are not always perfect. Humans make mistakes - sometimes in
initial construction, and sometimes during repair and maintenance (i.e.
when hunting down failed RSD's which happens far more than it should).
At this time, these devices are not being designed to withstand
reality. When problems happen, manufacturers are quibbling. They ignore
you until you go away, or until you sue them.
This level of "safety" is not important, and in fact RSD is causing
fires every year.
On Sat, Feb 15, 2025 at 11:38 AM William Miller
<will...@millersolar.com> wrote:
David, Ray:
I have not had any problems with the Tigo RSS equipment I have
installed and I have had minimal problems with optimizers and
micro-inverters (which are also RSS equipment). Apparently others have
had failures. We don't know statically how serious this problem
is--the posts here are purely anecdotal.
We also have not heard from the other side of the debate: the fire
fighters.
Based on lack of verifiable information I can not personally conclude
that RSS is all problem and no benefit.
To declare that the concept is flawed because the equipment available
is not reliable is like saying we should not be required to install
airbags because a bad batch of them was manufactured. We are seeing
problems with the equipment needed to implement a safety requirement.
That observation does not logically conclude the safety requirement is
not valuable.
I hesitate to dismiss any safety requirement out of hand. Safety
systems are designed to save lives and protect from injury, and most of
them do. I am glad to have anti-lock brakes, smoke detectors and air
bags. I have also found it quite handy to initiate RSS to allow me to
work more safely on solar circuits.
Does anyone on this installers forum have contacts in the fire-response
community that can comment on the their side of the issue? If RSD is
really necessary for safety, then I will do my best to install good
equipment properly and hold manufacturers accountable for shoddy
solutions. If RSD is not that effective we need to discuss undoing the
code requirements.
Sincerely,
William Miller
Miller Solar
17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
805-438-5600
www.millersolar.com [3]
CA Lic. 773985
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of david quattro via RE-wrenches
Sent: Saturday, February 15, 2025 6:05 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: david quattro
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Tigo inverter experience
RSD is the worst thing to happen to solar. Has anyone considered civil
disobedience?
I wonder what would happen if all the installers banded together and
refused, as a united industry 'brotherhood.' WE are the ones stuck with
the bullshit in the aftermath.
I'm not being snarky here , this a genuine question to the group:
Does anyone have good experience with RSD? i.e. you're really glad
RSD was there, and you genuinely feel safer? you're glad and happy to
comply with this code and you look forward to continuing to use RSD for
the rest of your career?
On Fri, Feb 14, 2025 at 3:40 PM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches
<re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
it seems silly that we are required to install these extra pieces of
equipment for added "safety", that are actually a fire hazard on the
roof. Just to survey again: how many homes have been saved by RSD?
How many fire fighters have actually actuated the RSD system, so that
they could hack through the array to vent the roof?
I think it should only be required if you have covered so much of the
roof with PV, that the fire dept can't access uncovered roof to do
their venting. The whole premise of RSD is flawed. IMHO, its just
another effort to block the wider adoption of solar.
When it comes to off grid, RSD causes such a decrease in reliability to
amount to a decrease in safety, due to possible loss of communications,
water, and heat. Add the fire hazard and RSD is really not making our
customers' lives better.
Ray Walters
Remote Solar
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Links:
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[2] https://www.facebook.com/integrityenergyllp?ref=hl
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[4] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[5] https://offgridsolar1.com/
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