Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series

[Gary Willett]

Mac: The 0.8 PF is a design criteria by which the generator manufacturer specs the capacity of the genset. The genset has to provide the reactive power not just the real component, so most use the 0.8PF as a reasonable spec. In your case with the Magnum charger presenting a 1.0PF, the genset output should match that value. Regards, Gary On 7/14/15 8:45 PM, Mac Lewis wrote: Wrenches, Thanks for these productive responses.  I will attempt to get an instrument that can examine the current waveform.  I want to understand power factor possibility a bit more.  I neglected to mention that during the oscilloscope tests, we turned off the AC output of the inverter so the only loading of the generator would have been the charger on the Magnum.  The Magnum has power factor corrected charger, so I am assuming that when I measure the power factor, it should be near unity. I was talking to an electrical engineering friend about it and he said that most generators have a pf of about 0.8.  This confuses me because I thought current (and hence power factor) is determined by the load.  How does the power source influence power factor (assuming we aren't near its current production limit)?   Thanks in advance On Tue, Jul 14, 2015 at 10:43 AM, <jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com> wrote: Hi: I'm assuming the oscilloscope waveforms are voltages.  If so, they don't look bad. I would get a current for the oscilloscope and and measure the L1, L2 and Neutral currents.  That should reveal what is going on. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Xantrex Brand  |   CANADA  |   Sales Application Engineer Phone: +604-422-2528  |   Tech Support: 800-670-0707  |   Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site: www.Xantrex.com  |   Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.com> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 07/14/2015 06:01 AM Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series Sent by: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> Hello wrenches, Last December I posted about a Magnum 4448 and a Generac 22 kW generator that aren't working well together.  The symptom was that the Magnum transformer would overheat very quickly, even at very low charge rates (<2A DC).  We have verified 120/240 VAC operation of the generator. We were able to get up to the site with an oscilloscope and see if we could find anything out.  I've attached some photos of the oscilloscope output.  I don't have anything to compare it to, so I'd like to see if anyone has some insight into why this may be occurring. The 4 photos are as follows (all photos L1-L2): 1.  Generator Waveform No Load: Unloaded Generator Voltage Waveform 2.  Charger 1st Connected: AC Input Voltage waveform immediately after charger connects 3.  Steady State Operation Editted: AC Input Voltage waveform after about 10 seconds, this waveform continues until transformer overheats (in about 2 minutes)  Note the disturbances. 4.  Zoomed In Ripple: Closer view of the disturbances noted in #3. We have tried replacing the Magnum with an identical unit, and we had the same issue.  We also tried a Honda 6500 with atrocious voltage and frequency regulation and it worked fine with the Magnum.  Since I did not sell him the generator, the easy out is to replace the generator.  However, there is some custom exhaust duct work and it will be much more expensive to replace the generator than to try a new inverter.   I think that over all it is preferable for the client to replace the inverter/charger with a different brand.  I have no problem doing that except that I'd like to be relatively sure that this is anomalous behavior between the Magnum and the Generac and not a generator issue.  What are the chances that I'd have the same issue with a different inverter?  What might cause this?  All voltage and frequency measurements have been perfect with the Generac. Your comments or thoughts are appreciated. Thanks On Tue, Dec 16, 2014 at 11:15 AM, RE Ellison <reelli...@gmail.com> wrote: If memory serves me correctly and this is the off grid Generac they are available as a 120 volt and it takes a new breaker and rewiring to get 120 / 240 out of them I run into this in the past they actually had it wired for 240 into a balancing transformer to feed 120 into the inverter We could've just left it at 120 volt  Later, Bob ellison  Bob Ellison On Dec 16, 2014, at 11:33 AM, "Baxter, Gary" <gbax...@sensata.com> wrote: Hi Mac, Jay just had the same issue and it was 120v from the gen instead of 120/240. The inverter was charging using half the windings causing it to Overtemp. Check the 60A breakers on the side of the inverter. Also make sure to remove the wires from the input terminal block before measuring voltage as the inverter will make 120v look like 120/240v at the terminals. If the generator is 3 Phase it won't work with this inverter unless you only use one leg. This will work but you will need to turn the charge rate to 50% in order to prevent Overtemp. Sometimes it works as high as 70%. Gary Baxter Product Manager Magnum/Dimensions  On Dec 15, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.com> wrote: Hi jarmo, We have verified this is split phase 120/240. My multimeter gets 120 L-N and 240 L-L. Thanks On Dec 15, 2014 10:25 AM, <jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com> wrote: Hi: The Generac QT02224GNAX ships as a three-phase 120/208 VAC.  I believe the Magnum is a 120/240 VAC. JARMO _____________________________________________________________________________________ Jarmo Venalainen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  |   Training & Development Specialist - Senior Phone: +604-422-2528  |   Fax: +604-420-1591  |   Mobile: +604-505-0291 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site: www.SEsolar.com  |   Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 <mime-attachment.jpg> *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail From: Mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.com> To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>, Date: 12/15/2014 05:52 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generac QT series Sent by: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> Hello wrenches, We have a newly installed system that has a 22 kW Generac Quiet Source QT02224GNAX with a Magnum MS4448-PAE.  When we start the generator, the Magnum's internal transformer temperature climbs to overtemp (240F) within a 2 minutes.  The batteries are being floated at the time, and haven't seen more than 5A coming out of the generator.  We swapped the Magnum out, and we have the exact same issue.  We then got a job-site gas generator 6500W and ran it.  No problem whatsoever.  The problem appears to be with the Generac, or with the interaction between the Generac & the Magnum.  I didn't have a scope on site but the fluke multimeter doesn't detect anything wrong with the voltage or frequency coming from the Generac. Has anyone had issues with the Generac QT?  Anyone paired one with a Magnum PAE before?  I want to get my scope up there and look for triplen harmonics, but I'm not sure how to filter these out.  Any references on how to effectively do that is appreciated. Thanks in advance -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the Symantec Email Security.cloud service. ______________________________________________________________________[attachment "Generator Waveform No Load.jpg" deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] [attachment "Charger 1st Connected.jpg" deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] [attachment "Steady State Operation Editted.jpg" deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] [attachment "Zoomed In Ripple.jpg" deleted by Jarmo Venalainen/Canada/Schneider] _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org -- Mac Lewis "Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates _______________________________________________ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org

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