On 4/1/14 5:33 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
hi Terry, hope you are well today, despite gmane difficulties;
If you narrowly meant "The python interpreter only starting using
unicode as the default text class in 3.0", then you are, in that narrow
sense, correct.
Yes. When I speak of 'python' I am almost always speaking about the
interpreter. If I speak of the python community, and I rarely do, I
explicitly use the word 'community'. I am concerned with backward
compatibility in my own stuff, but I am primarily interested in python3,
and I have made the conscious decision to use only python3 moving
forward, except in those cases (like QPython 2.7.2 on the Android
platform ). So, python(3)'s use of unicode is exciting, not only as a
step forward for the python interpreter, but also as a leadership step
forward in computer science around the world.
I didn't ask when it was introduced, I asked when it became useful?
It was useful immediately when introduced. Do you really think we would
add something useless, and that no one wanted to use? Core developers
constantly ask 'What is the practical use case?' in response to
suggested additions.
'Useful' must always be taken in context, and also contextually
evaluated with an on-going methodology which constantly informs
'usefulness' on a continuum. I admire and encourage the core devs, in
their pursuit of excellence. Asking 'what is the practical use case?' is
essential. Not always is the answer complete.
On the python unicode continuum version (3) is more useful than
version (2). ( this is of course relative and debatable, so the
statement is rhetorical ) The commitment and dedicated effort to move
forward with a unicode default is not only commendable, but also admits
to the 'usefulness' of same. Its not that version 2 was useless, its
just that version 3 is so much more useful that people are 'using' it
and dedicating their resources moving forward with python3.
This is similar to the decimal module. Of course it had limited
usefulness in version(2) thru 3.2/ but now, python3.3+ the decimal
module is truly useful! Why? Glad you asked... because it is now fast
enough for use cases previously reserved for floats. I found limited
usefulness for decimal prior to 3.3, but now we're finding decimal so
useful that some of us are wanting decimal to be the default. ( all of
this is also relative and debatable )
Fine. You asked 'When did unicode in Python become useful.'
Answer: 2.0, not 3.0. Most unicode use in Python is still running on
Python 2. It works well enough that people are reluctant to migrate
working and tested production code. End of discussion?
Sure. Yes, this is sad. Python2 works. Python2 is inconsistent, and
troublesome. ( I do not mean that to be insulting, not in the least, its
just true )
I've been studying python3 now for several years; cross referencing
between python2 and python3 has been fun and illuminating, from a
practical programming standpoint as well as from a standpoint of general
interest in computer science, and the science of language design. Its
been a magnificent journey for me (thanks to all of you who provided the
food for thought, as it were )
Python3 is not perfect; but python3 is *way* more consistent than
python2 and consequently *way* more useful than python2. ( this is
relative, debatable, or even certainly one of those discussions of
personal preference and taste perhaps ) As we move forward with use
cases we grow and consequently our language evolves. This is true of the
spoken word, also true of the comp sci word. In this sense, at this
time, I would call python2 a 'mess'. Python3 straightened up the 'mess'
pep after pep. At what point does do we arrive at 'elegant'? Beats me.
Maybe when number is unified, decimal is default, scientists are free to
mix literals of all types in a convenient and intelligent way. But, for
the moment, python3 is elegant---and very useful. No doubt Python4 will
build upon that; perhaps we will come to think of python3 as a mess?
I hear, speak, read, and write standard American English.
~nice. Trouble is, as we've stated before, most of our comm in
life is non verbal. So, even in the best (E)scale effectiveness we are
at a loss because mailing lists and news servers lose the non verbals,
the smiles, and shrugs, the waves, and the handshakes. rats()
Enjoy your day Terry.
PS I just thought of another example along the lines of continual
usefulness: IDLE. (you've worked on IDLE, right?) IDLE is now useful !
---a few years back, not so much. That is not to say that IDLE was
*never* useful back in the day (it always has been, to some extent), but
since it has matured over the years it is at a point now where it really
can be the default (very useful) development interface for code and
test. Its now stable, does what it advertises, and provides a clean
simple environment that is pleasant to work with. I ask nay-Sayers,
"Have you driven an IDLE lately?"
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