https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4663 <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4663>
Norbert > Am 20.09.2019 um 08:51 schrieb Norbert Hartl <norb...@hartl.name>: > > > >> Am 20.09.2019 um 06:45 schrieb James Foster <smallt...@jgfoster.net >> <mailto:smallt...@jgfoster.net>>: >> >> First, my guess is that it was part of the thing they copied and that aspect >> might not have gotten as much thought as you’ve given it. >> > That is right. I wondered myself about the last part but did not think about > it too much. > >> Second, this is an international organization and maybe the intent (by the >> original author(s)) was to extend the reach of the NZ/UK/EU-style laws to >> apply to those in jurisdictions with less strict speech codes or where the >> legal remedy is impractical. That is, maybe the author(s) don’t feel it is >> sufficient to tell someone who is harassed, “We can’t do anything about it. >> Hire a NZ lawyer.” >> > It doesn’t matter. We are _not_ an international organization that needs to > fit in all participating nations laws. We are a community with plenty of > nations participating and we are free to define our own culture. Everyone > might have additional restrictions how to interpret „free speech“ but that is > duty of the particular individual and the laws in the country he/she lives in. > >> These are speculations on my part and, as a US citizen, I’m partial to our >> free speech protections. I’d prefer to have private organizations practice >> ostracization rather than have the government put rude people in jail. I say >> this, not to start a political discussion, but to point out that some >> harassment that would be illegal in NZ might not have a legal remedy if the >> actor was a US citizen. >> > This part in the text is vague and you acknowledge just that it welcomes > speculation about it. In particular people put a lot of their > opinion/believe/… into those speculations and I would like to see that > minimized in this community. And I really don’t see a benefit having those. > >> In any case, I found that when I submitted a PR then something happened >> pretty quickly. So, I’d suggest that you channel your analysis and concerns >> into a proposed improvement. > > It is always good to go pro-active on topics rather than just writing mails > and complain. In your case it was more of coincidence. We were discussing > that for a longer time and your PR just met our time frame of getting a > decision ready. > > I will discuss about removing that last part of the text. > > Norbert > >> >> James >> >>> On Sep 19, 2019, at 8:44 PM, Richard O'Keefe <rao...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:rao...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> >>> On the whole, the new code is pretty good. >>> >>> There was one thing that troubled me, though: >>> "even outside of Pharo's public communication channels." >>> What business is it of the Pharo Board what anyone says in any >>> other community? I've heard too many cases where A says something >>> to B and C complains about it as harassment when B didn't mind. >>> I have personally known people *affectionately* address each other >>> in terms that most would consider a deadly insult. >>> >>> My behaviour in all digital media is subject to the >>> Harmful Digital Communications Act 2015. See >>> http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2015/0063/latest/whole.html >>> <http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/2015/0063/latest/whole.html> >>> which extends the Harassment Act 1997. See >>> http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1997/0092/latest/whole.html >>> <http://www.legislation.govt.nz/act/public/1997/0092/latest/whole.html> >>> for a definition of harassment. >>> If I harass anyone according to these Acts, they have a legal remedy. >>> I understand the the UK and the EU have similar laws. >>> >>> So I don't understand why the Pharo Board want to extend their reach. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, 20 Sep 2019 at 07:21, Esteban Lorenzano <esteba...@gmail.com >>> <mailto:esteba...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>> Hello, >>> >>> I’m talking on behalf of the Pharo Board here. >>> As start, we accepted Serge’s proposition without actually discussing it >>> much because we didn’t think it was going to be really a problem. Our >>> community has been self-regulating since the beginning and we were doing it >>> fine until now. Once or twice we (the board) needed to act, but never had a >>> real situation as the ones the CoC tries to cover. >>> So, we can say we opened the umbrella without rain, just in case. >>> >>> Now, after observe the situation, we have decided to retract the code. But >>> sadly, we cannot just remove it and let things continue as before because >>> as it’s know “it you open a can or worms, you will need a bigger can to put >>> them back in”. Which means now we need a code of conduct. >>> >>> So we are going to take the simplest one we could find that still can serve >>> our community, you can see it here: >>> >>> https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4660 >>> <https://github.com/pharo-project/pharo/pull/4660> >>> >>> This PR will be accepted, but as anything in our community, you can still >>> discuss it and propose modifications. >>> Just remember be respectful of people disagreeing with your ideas :) >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Esteban >>> >>> PS: As personal note: I blocked a github user that insulted a member of our >>> community, a user who did not had history with us (or any other visible >>> project), who did not had a name or ways to contact him so I assumed it was >>> just another troll. Now, he identifies himself here... I will unblock him, >>> but that does not means the kind of disrespectful messages he sent can be >>> sent :) >>> >>> >>>> On 19 Sep 2019, at 19:47, Ben Coman <b...@openinworld.com >>>> <mailto:b...@openinworld.com>> wrote: >>>> >>>> makes me wonder whether he's such a machiavellian sociopath, or a useful >>>> idiot. >>>> >>>> On Thu, 19 Sep 2019 at 23:07, Eugen Leitl via Pharo-users >>>> <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> wrote: >>>> Let's see, I've posted one email to this list describing the dangers >>>> of abusing CoCs >>>> >>>> I guess you refer to this one... >>>> > On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 19:39, Eugen Leitl via Pharo-users >>>> > <pharo-users@lists.pharo.org <mailto:pharo-users@lists.pharo.org>> wrote: >>>> > I agree. Technical people are too easy to exploit by malignant >>>> > manipulators of people. >>>> > All too often they don't even realize it after the fact. >>>> >>>> Thats fairly benign and doubt it had anything to do with being blocked on >>>> github. >>>> >>>> >>>> and one post to GitHub describing the motivations of >>>> people who introduce CoCs, and immediately get banned on GitHub from >>>> >>>> Note, the board member who blocked your GIthub account and deleted your >>>> post there >>>> also voiced their opinion as being... >>>> For me a "welcome and be nice" should be enough to just continue as >>>> before. >>>> I find the introduction of CoC was a noise we didn't need, >>>> our community was doing well and self-regulated without problem until >>>> now. >>>> >>>> So in spite of your implication, I doubt there is anything sinister from >>>> the CoC in play here. >>>> Comments such as "makes me wonder whether he's such a machiavellian >>>> sociopath, or a useful idiot." >>>> have been consistently condemned years before thought of a CoC. >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm getting called a troll and a nobody in public by members of the >>>> project, >>>> >>>> Its not that you are a "nobody", but actually you were "unknown to us" two >>>> days ago. >>>> Maybe you don't know Serge, but we've know him for years and his good work >>>> including governance of our GSoC participation >>>> so please consider why such comments from a newcomer may be dealt with as >>>> a troll. >>>> Community standards do not maintain themselves: They're maintained by >>>> people actively applying them, visibly, in public. >>>> >>>> Now personally I'm not going to condemn you on one slip. >>>> I've been told to pull my head in before and they were right - I was >>>> venting after a bad day at work. But no one held it against me long. >>>> These nontechnical and emotion-charge debates are infrequent and I hope >>>> get a chance to see how things normally run once we are past it. >>>> >>>> cheers -ben >>> >> >
