Kid you got my whole point wrong, I never said a word about IDE. Cheers,
Hernán El vie., 25 ene. 2019 a las 4:12, Dimitris Chloupis (<kilon.al...@gmail.com>) escribió: > I think you got this the wrong way > > Sure emacs and vim are very popular when compared to Pharo. > When compared to IDEs oh boy , that's another story. > There is a reason why their hardcore user are so desperate to call them > IDEs and is not because they like IDEs, they dont. > They hate IDEs. > > Text based coding, has lost .... no my bad , let me correct this, text > coding never stood chance. Smalltalk was like a nuclear bomb that when it > landed it left nothing in its path, > There is no doubt that nowdays IDEs dominating to a vast degree. Obviously > big guns on top are Visual Studio (not Code) and Xcode by far for obvious > reasons. > > Even in the case of my favorite IDE , Delphii its really amazing that even > though its company has long disappeared, the all mighty Borland which one > was the equivalent of Sun/Oracle. > With only diffirent that obviously they were innovator. Even though > outside Delphi absolutely none talks about Delphi. > Delphi is surprisingly strong. Actually Delphis popularity is an > undeniable proof how massively successful Smalltalk has been in its > visual paradigm. Its company went to bankruptcy and the language was > bought by a pretty much , even today, unknown company. The impact was that > it went from 4th most popular to 12th most popular. > Delphi even today is a formidable force for the Windows platform battling > Go and freaking Swift who has the support of the most powerful company on > the planet, Apple.There is no doubt in my mind > that if Delphi was not such a massively loved IDE , being closed source > which is a taboo for todays coding standards especially for a programming > language, it would have been long dead. > > And lets not begin with scripting language which are basically dead. > Python for example may be the 3rd most popular programming language but > scripting wise has pretty much died. > When it comes to the customisation of super advanced programs , the users > has spoken loud and clear. They want visual coding and NOT text coding. > 3 extremely complex fields , 3d graphics , Music and game development are > dominated by Visual Coding languages. In Blender we offer both Python and > Visual coding, > guess what the users pick. > > Essentially one type of Visual Coding , node based visual coding. > > Also the time where visual coding was just for the users and not for the > pros is long gone too after the massive success of Unreal's Blueprints. > Which basically can do everything C++ can. > Unreal's Blueprints is not even the first example of a visual language > that will give a text language a run for its money. Softimage (3d app) ICE > has been doing high performance coding decades ago. > In music software we even have the insanity of visual language going down > to low level, an I am not talking C++ or C , I mean real low level, old > school Assembly code. Again decades ago. > > The users have spoken loud and clear and they have clearly stated they > have no interest into investing the vast amount of wasted time that text > coding requires. > > Even to learn how to code is dominated by Scratch. Just think about it, a > language for kids dominates programming education. > If you told that to a coder or even a user 20 years ago, he would have > called you crazy and for a good reason. > > Text coding is only getting less and less popular by the year. I have no > doubt at some point will completely disappear as did Assembly. > > So the biggest mistake of Smalltalk was not that it supported visual coding > > it was that it did not go visual coding all the way. > > It will have saved us the trouble of not being able to convince people to > learn coding. > Because people do not want to learn coding, > And frankly.... I do not blame them. > > Visual coding is the only future of coding and Emac and Vim are relics of > a past that has long gone. > A despair attempt at nostalgia. > On Fri, Jan 25, 2019 at 1:09 AM Hernán Morales Durand < > hernan.mora...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> El jue., 24 ene. 2019 a las 13:18, Sven Van Caekenberghe (<s...@stfx.eu>) >> escribió: >> >>> >>> >>> > On 24 Jan 2019, at 17:04, K K Subbu <kksubbu...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> > >>> > On 24/01/19 7:23 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: >>> >> Everybody is of course totally free to do whatever they want, but >>> >> really, why the hell would you want to do that ? >>> > Because text has many uses other than just feeding into a compiler for >>> translation to machine code? People who come from Unix/Linux world are used >>> to using a rich collection of tools that deal with text in various ways. >>> >>> I am myself a server/linux guy, an emacs user, I know what is all >>> possible and what the unix philosophy is. >>> >>> I also know how to integrate Pharo into that world, and this is super >>> important. >>> >>> >> You lose so much by doing that, I do not even know where to start. >>> > >>> > Live coding (i.e. coding in the presence of instances) is undoubtedly >>> more powerful than edit-compile-run cycle. Text is used to direct IDE to >>> edit live objects. But text has many more uses than just issuing commands. >>> If beginners start using vim just to edit code due to established habits, >>> they will soon realize the ease of live coding and remain in IDE. This is a >>> self-correcting error. >>> >>> Well, I don't think so. >>> >>> The users that you are going to attract in this way (the ones that don't >>> want to leave their own IDE/editor), will look at textual Pharo and find it >>> very strange and ill suited to textual editing (and they are absolutely >>> right), they will not discover the power, will not learn (from this >>> experience alone) what object design/programming/power is, and will ask for >>> more (e.g. give me C style compiler errors, better/easier structure of the >>> file, fixed the !! escape issue, etc, ...). >>> >>> >> We should admit for once text-based programming already won for this age. >> Want a nice proof? Check Mr. Robot series. That's how a new generation of >> devs is getting it. It doesn't matter if we have 30 years of experience >> supporting exploratory UI is the best way, not even if we are fully >> convinced of it. Probably it's time to invert the burden of proof, and let >> people decide how they want to get into Pharo. If they want an >> Objective-Smalltalk mode, let people live and die with it. >> >> And I love the Class Browser, but we cannot assume every coder has >> developed an exploratory mindset. Just ready to jump into a world of new >> tools. "Forcing" on developing it through tools isn't actually nice >> attitude neither. And there are really good devs out there, it may just >> happen that they don't want a shock therapy as someone told above. Or they >> don't have the time+energy for now. Let people themselves discover the >> right tools for them, or stay where they want to. >> >> So IMHO until someone really sits down and figure out a cool Pharo REPL, >> we will get the same print me "Hello World" trolls in forums. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Hernán >> >> >>> >> Editing a .st file has always been possible, it is masochism.Vim is >>> much more than just a typewriter. It can leverage a whole set of >>> > text-based tools. One could use it to auto generate methods, clean >>> them up and then file into Pharo. >>> > >>> > Regards .. Subbu >>> > >>> >>> >>>
