Cool!
-- _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. > On Dec 1, 2015, at 1:56 PM, Volkert <volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de> wrote: > > Yes. I tried it and it works on my linux system ... :-) > > On 01.12.2015 16:22, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >> Does the script Ronie sent work for you Volkert? >> >> Alexandre >> -- >> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >> Alexandre Bergel http://www.bergel.eu <http://www.bergel.eu/> >> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >> >> >> >>> On Dec 1, 2015, at 1:11 AM, Volkert < >>> <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de >>> <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>> wrote: >>> >>> That is cool. Thank you ... >>> >>> BW, >>> Volkert >>> >>> On 01.12.2015 01:25, Ronie Salgado wrote: >>>> Hello, >>>> >>>> I added a fallback method for the selection, so the missing extension >>>> should not be required. The following script should work in a playground. >>>> >>>> =========================================================== >>>> >>>> view := RWView new. >>>> elements := RWCube elementsOn: (1 to: 50). >>>> RWCubeLayout on: elements. >>>> elements do: [:el | >>>> el when: RWMouseButtonDown do: [ :ev | >>>> ev element color: WDColor red. >>>> ev element changed. >>>> ] >>>> ]. >>>> >>>> view addAll: elements. >>>> view addInteraction: RWMouseKeyControl. >>>> view open >>>> >>>> ============================================================ >>>> I tested it on: >>>> >>>> glxinfo >>>> OpenGL vendor string: Intel Open Source Technology Center >>>> OpenGL renderer string: Mesa DRI Intel(R) Ivybridge Mobile >>>> >>>> cat /proc/cpuinfo >>>> model name : Intel(R) Core(TM) i5-3230M CPU @ 2.60GHz >>>> >>>> Best regards, >>>> Ronie >>>> >>>> 2015-11-29 3:33 GMT-03:00 Ben Coman < >>>> <mailto:b...@openinworld.com>b...@openinworld.com >>>> <mailto:b...@openinworld.com>>: >>>> Interesting stuff Ronie. Hopefully we'll gain a lot in portability with >>>> Vulkan. What I find interesting is the use of Standard Portable >>>> Intermediate Representation (SPIR) common to Vulkan graphics API and >>>> OpenCL compute API. [1] is an interesting article outlining this. [2] >>>> indicates a few programming languages will compile direct to SPIR and I >>>> wonder if Pharo might be able to do the same? New technologies (SPIR) => >>>> new opportunities to draw the curious to Pharo. Wild speculation... be >>>> able to debug a shader on a SPIR simulator running inside Pharo. >>>> >>>> (btw, apparently SPIR is pronounced "spear" not to be confused with our >>>> "spur" vm) >>>> >>>> [2] p39,40 says "Debug information via standardized API calls" and >>>> "Khronos encouraging open community of tools e.g. shader debugging" which >>>> may provide an opportunity to produce a shader debugging tool for use by >>>> individual developers in a corporate environment that constrains their >>>> language choice for the main application, but have more flexibility to >>>> choice their tools. So potentially once exposed to Pharo we hook some of >>>> them. Maybe interesting debugging info could be gathered that could be >>>> presented by Roassal. >>>> >>>> [3] p4 says "SPIR-V is fully set up to support multiple source languages" >>>> and "SPIR-V also enables development of new experimental languages" and >>>> [4] says "Enable third-party code generation targeting OpenCL platforms >>>> without going through OpenCL C." So maybe(?) this makes it easier to get >>>> fast computing within Pharo using more of our own tools? >>>> >>>> [1] >>>> <http://www.pcper.com/reviews/General-Tech/GDC-15-What-Vulkan-glNext-SPIR-V-and-OpenCL-21>http://www.pcper.com/reviews/General-Tech/GDC-15-What-Vulkan-glNext-SPIR-V-and-OpenCL-21 >>>> >>>> <http://www.pcper.com/reviews/General-Tech/GDC-15-What-Vulkan-glNext-SPIR-V-and-OpenCL-21> >>>> [2] >>>> <https://www.khronos.org/assets/uploads/developers/library/2015-sigasia/SIGGRAPH-Asia_Nov15.pdf>https://www.khronos.org/assets/uploads/developers/library/2015-sigasia/SIGGRAPH-Asia_Nov15.pdf >>>> >>>> <https://www.khronos.org/assets/uploads/developers/library/2015-sigasia/SIGGRAPH-Asia_Nov15.pdf> >>>> [3] >>>> <https://www.khronos.org/registry/spir-v/papers/WhitePaper.pdf>https://www.khronos.org/registry/spir-v/papers/WhitePaper.pdf >>>> <https://www.khronos.org/registry/spir-v/papers/WhitePaper.pdf> >>>> [4] <https://www.khronos.org/faq/spir>https://www.khronos.org/faq/spir >>>> <https://www.khronos.org/faq/spir> >>>> >>>> cheers -ben >>>> >>>> On Sun, Nov 29, 2015 at 6:13 AM, Ronie Salgado < >>>> <mailto:ronies...@gmail.com>ronies...@gmail.com >>>> <mailto:ronies...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>> Hi Stef, >>>> >>>> I think that this is important that people can pick different >>>> ("compatible") driver/framework >>>> back-end. >>>> You see if Woden is only built to work on something that does not run on >>>> mac or windows then >>>> it will be limited. >>>> The problem is not Window or Mac. The problem is Linux. >>>> >>>> We are having some discussion on this with Alex on this. I am going to try >>>> to remove the requirement on that extension by providing a fallback method >>>> for the selection, that does not require that extension. Then I will test >>>> it in my laptop by selecting the Intel driver (My laptop has the >>>> integrated Intel card in the CPU and a dedicated AMD graphics cards). >>>> >>>> However Woden-Roassal relies a lot on hardware instancing support to be >>>> able to draw a lot of dynamic cubes. The alternative is to use a vertex >>>> buffer and index buffer that holds all of the transformed visible geometry >>>> that is updated on each frame in the worst case scenario. In the best case >>>> scenario (static cubes or objects), they are updated only once. This >>>> relies a lot on the CPU because all of the transformations has to be done >>>> manually on the CPU. >>>> >>>> This is not a hardware problem, this is a drivers problem because OpenGL >>>> is huge, complex, unefficient, does not represent the graphics hardware. >>>> The Mesa Open Source guys are not able to keep pace with the extension >>>> hell known as OpenGL. In Ubuntu 14.04 >>>> Mesa supports up until OpenGL 3.0 compatibility profile, and >>>> OpenGL 3.1 core profile. The current version of OpenGL is 4.5. Each >>>> version of OpenGL has a different version of GLSL (OpenGL Shader >>>> Language), which makes harder to stick with one reasonable subset and then >>>> support features depending on which hardware you are running. In contrast, >>>> if you are developing for Direct3D in Windows, you only need to choose >>>> between Direct3D 9(Windows XP), 11(Vista I think/7/8), 12(Windows 10) and >>>> thats it. In Direct3D you do not have to deal with hardware vendor >>>> extensions because there are not extensions. >>>> >>>> By using instancing, I have a buffer with the geometry of a single cube or >>>> shape. Then I have another buffer with the transformation and color of >>>> each cube or simple shape. When updating the position, size or color of an >>>> element I only have to change a single entry in this buffer. >>>> >>>> The original Roassal 3D used a draw call per element. This more flexible, >>>> but a lot slower. 20.000 cubes in Roassal3D vs 300.000-600.000 in >>>> Woden-Roassal visibles at the same time. The overhead of a draw call is >>>> produced because some validations are made by the OpenGL driver for each >>>> draw call. >>>> >>>> A draw call per-element is only reasonable when using Direct3D 12(Window), >>>> Metal(iOS, OS X) or Vulkan (Linux, Windows and mobiles) because there are >>>> designed to remove the overhead of draw calls. This is the approach that I >>>> am going to use in Woden 2 via an abstraction layer that I am making in >>>> C/C++ above the graphics API. Currently I have a backend for Direct3D 12 >>>> and OpenGL 4.x (it should be possible to use OpenGL 3.3, but I need to >>>> test it). I made the OpenGL backend because Vulkan has not been released >>>> yet. It is impossible to get the best performance by using the OpenGL >>>> backend because of its design. In theory it should be possible to make a >>>> backend for OpenGL 2.0 and OpenGL 2.0 ES, but it will be really hard to >>>> do. And it will not have a good performance. >>>> >>>> Greetings, >>>> Ronie >>>> >>>> >>>> 2015-11-28 14:41 GMT-03:00 stepharo < >>>> <mailto:steph...@free.fr>steph...@free.fr <mailto:steph...@free.fr>>: >>>> Ronie >>>> >>>> I think that this is important that people can pick different >>>> ("compatible") driver/framework >>>> back-end. >>>> You see if Woden is only built to work on something that does not run on >>>> mac or windows then >>>> it will be limited. >>>> >>>> Stef >>>> >>>> Le 25/11/15 00:14, Ronie Salgado a écrit : >>>>> >>>>> What do you mean with "modern"? >>>>> By modern I mean a graphics card a with graphics driver that supports at >>>>> least OpenGL >>>>> 4.x. That Intel HD graphics card is capable of supporting at least OpenGL >>>>> 4.2, but the Open Source Mesa driver gives you support up until OpenGL >>>>> 3.1. Unfortunately, unlike with AMD or NVIDIA graphics cards, the open >>>>> source driver is the official driver. >>>>> >>>>> Woden-Roassal requires integer arithmetic in shaders which is used to >>>>> support the selection of objects. Integer arithmetics in shaders requires >>>>> at least OpenGL 3.3, or the missing extension for which you are receiving >>>>> the error. >>>>> >>>>> It is not required by the Woden-Core api, so you should be able to try >>>>> the following in a workspace: >>>>> >>>>> WDFPSSimpleExample6 new open >>>>> >>>>> My notebook with an HD Graphics 4400 has no problems with all "three.js" >>>>> demos found here <http://threejs.org/>http://threejs.org/ >>>>> <http://threejs.org/>. >>>>> Three.js or any WebGL based example is a bad test for that graphics card. >>>>> WebGL is based in OpenGL ES 2.0 which is a subset of OpenGL 2.0. This is >>>>> a very old technology for that graphics card. >>>>> >>>>> Woden will be using Vulkan in the future. According to this Phoronix >>>>> article ( >>>>> <http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LunarG-Vulkan-AMA>http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LunarG-Vulkan-AMA >>>>> <http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=LunarG-Vulkan-AMA>), >>>>> Valve has already made a proper Vulkan driver for the Intel graphics >>>>> cards. We only need an official release of the Vulkan spec. >>>>> >>>>> Best regards >>>>> Ronie >>>>> >>>>> 2015-11-24 18:50 GMT-03:00 Volkert < >>>>> <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de >>>>> <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>>: >>>>> My notebook with an HD Graphics 4400 has no problems with all "three.js" >>>>> demos found here <http://threejs.org/>http://threejs.org/ >>>>> <http://threejs.org/>. >>>>> >>>>> What do you mean with "modern"? >>>>> >>>>> <Mail Attachment.png> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 24.11.2015 22:25, Ronie Salgado wrote: >>>>>> You need a modern graphics card. Open source graphics drivers are not >>>>>> supported because there are very behind in their implementations of >>>>>> OpenGL. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> 2015-11-24 17:28 GMT-03:00 Volkert < >>>>>> <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de >>>>>> <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>>: >>>>>> But not on my linux box .... ubuntu 14.04 :-( >>>>>> >>>>>> <Mail Attachment.png> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 24.11.2015 21:03, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>> Woden works in Pharo 5.0 >>>>>>> I have just tried. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> _,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;: >>>>>>> Alexandre Bergel <http://www.bergel.eu/>http://www.bergel.eu >>>>>>> <http://www.bergel.eu/> >>>>>>> ^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;._,.;:~^~:;. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Nov 24, 2015, at 3:15 PM, Volkert < >>>>>>>> <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de >>>>>>>> <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>> wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Cool ... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Which Pharo Version? I tried Pharo 4.0 and got this error: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <edcefcdd.png> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On 24.11.2015 12:50, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Do we have a tutorial? i found only >>>>>>>>>> <http://woden.ronie.cl/>http://woden.ronie.cl >>>>>>>>>> <http://woden.ronie.cl/>. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> What about mouse control and object selection. It that possible? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Yes. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To load Woden: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Gofer new smalltalkhubUser: 'ronsaldo' project: 'Woden'; package: >>>>>>>>> 'ConfigurationOfWoden'; load. (Smalltalk at: #ConfigurationOfWoden) >>>>>>>>> loadBleedingEdge. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Try: >>>>>>>>> =-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-= >>>>>>>>> v := RWView new. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1 to: 100 do: [ :i | >>>>>>>>> e := RWCube element. >>>>>>>>> e when: RWMouseButtonDown do: [ :ev | >>>>>>>>> ev element shape color: WDColor green. >>>>>>>>> ev element changed. >>>>>>>>> ]. >>>>>>>>> v add: e. >>>>>>>>> ]. >>>>>>>>> RWXZGridLayout on: v elements. >>>>>>>>> v addInteraction: RWMouseKeyControl. >>>>>>>>> v camera position: (WDVector3 x: 0.0 y: 0.0 z: 3.0). >>>>>>>>> v open >>>>>>>>> =-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-==-=-=-= >>>>>>>>> Use the keys A S D W and the moose to navigate. Click on cube to make >>>>>>>>> them green >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> <Mail Attachment.png> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> BW, >>>>>>>>>> Volkert >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On 22.11.2015 21:10, Alexandre Bergel wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> We have also put quite some effort on Woden, a 3d engine for Pharo… >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Cheers, >>>>>>>>>>> Alexandre >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Nov 22, 2015, at 2:56 PM, Dimitris Chloupis < >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:kilon.al...@gmail.com>kilon.al...@gmail.com >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:kilon.al...@gmail.com>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> its possible via my Ephestos project, to render to video or real >>>>>>>>>>>> time but the >>>>>>>>>>>> project is still very much a WIP. Its doable but require some >>>>>>>>>>>> python knowledge and knowledge of Blender UI and API. I will be >>>>>>>>>>>> making a true Pharo API for it fairly soon but as you can imagine >>>>>>>>>>>> these things take time. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Nov 22, 2015 at 6:35 PM Volkert < >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de >>>>>>>>>>>> <mailto:volk...@komponentenwerkstatt.de>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Is this possible with Pharo? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.asterank.com/3d/>http://www.asterank.com/3d/ >>>>>>>>>>>> <http://www.asterank.com/3d/> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> BW, >>>>>>>>>>>> Volkert >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >
