Fair enough, I misunderstood your question. I still think it's basically not knowable.
On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 3:16 PM Mike Hammett <na...@ics-il.net> wrote: > I'm not talking about global, public use, only private use. > > > > ----- > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> > <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> > <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> > Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> > <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> > <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> > The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> > <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> > <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Tom Beecher" <beec...@beecher.cc> > *To: *"Mike Hammett" <na...@ics-il.net> > *Cc: *"Ryan Hamel" <r...@rkhtech.org>, "Abraham Y. Chen" < > ayc...@alum.mit.edu>, nanog@nanog.org > *Sent: *Friday, January 12, 2024 2:06:32 PM > *Subject: *Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 > address block > > You don't need everything in the world to support it, just the things >> "you" use. > > > You run an ISP, let me posit something. > > Stipulate your entire network infra, services, and applications support > 240/4, and that it's approved for global , public use tomorrow. Some > company gets a block in there, stands up some website. Here are some > absolutely plausible scenarios that you might have to deal with. > > - Some of your customers are running operating systems / network gear that > doesn't support 240/4. > - Some of your customers may be using 3rd party DNS resolvers that don't > support 240/4. > - Some network in between you and the dest missed a few bogon ACLs , > dropping your customer's traffic. > > All of this becomes support issues you have to deal with. > > On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 2:21 PM Mike Hammett <na...@ics-il.net> wrote: > >> I wouldn't say it's unknowable, just that no one with a sufficient enough >> interest in the cause has been loud enough with the research they've done, >> assuming some research has been done.. >> >> You don't need everything in the world to support it, just the things >> "you" use. >> >> >> >> ----- >> Mike Hammett >> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >> ------------------------------ >> *From: *"Tom Beecher" <beec...@beecher.cc> >> *To: *"Mike Hammett" <na...@ics-il.net> >> *Cc: *"Ryan Hamel" <r...@rkhtech.org>, "Abraham Y. Chen" < >> ayc...@alum.mit.edu>, nanog@nanog.org >> *Sent: *Friday, January 12, 2024 1:16:53 PM >> *Subject: *Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 >> address block >> >> How far are we from that, in reality? I don't have any intention on using >>> the space, but I would like to put some definition to this boogey man. >> >> >> It's unknowable really. >> >> Lots of network software works just fine today with it. Some don't. To my >> knowledge some NOS vendors have outright refused to support 240/4 unless >> it's reclassified. Beyond network equipment, there is an unknowable number >> of software packages , drivers, etc out in the world which 240/4 is still >> hardcoded not to work. It's been unfortunate to see this fact handwaved >> away in many discussions on the subject. >> >> The Mirai worm surfaced in 2016. The software vulnerabilities used in its >> attack vectors are still unpatched and present in massive numbers >> across the internet; there are countless variants that still use the same >> methods, 8 years later. Other vulnerabilities still exist after >> multiple decades. But we somehow think devices will be patched to support >> 240/4 quickly? >> >> It's just unrealistic. >> >> On Fri, Jan 12, 2024 at 1:03 PM Mike Hammett <na...@ics-il.net> wrote: >> >>> " every networking vendor, hardware vendor, and OS vendor" >>> >>> How far are we from that, in reality? I don't have any intention on >>> using the space, but I would like to put some definition to this boogey man. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- >>> Mike Hammett >>> Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> >>> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> >>> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> >>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> >>> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> >>> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> >>> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> >>> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> >>> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> >>> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> >>> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> >>> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From: *"Ryan Hamel" <r...@rkhtech.org> >>> *To: *"Abraham Y. Chen" <ayc...@avinta.com>, "Vasilenko Eduard" < >>> vasilenko.edu...@huawei.com> >>> *Cc: *"Abraham Y. Chen" <ayc...@alum.mit.edu>, nanog@nanog.org >>> *Sent: *Thursday, January 11, 2024 11:04:31 PM >>> *Subject: *Re: Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 >>> address block >>> >>> Abraham, >>> >>> You may not need permission from the IETF, but you effectively need it >>> from every networking vendor, hardware vendor, and OS vendor. If you do not >>> have buy in from key stakeholders, it's dead-on arrival. >>> >>> Ryan >>> ------------------------------ >>> *From:* NANOG <nanog-bounces+ryan=rkhtech....@nanog.org> on behalf of >>> Abraham Y. Chen <ayc...@avinta.com> >>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 11, 2024 6:38:52 PM >>> *To:* Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.edu...@huawei.com> >>> *Cc:* Chen, Abraham Y. <ayc...@alum.mit.edu>; nanog@nanog.org < >>> nanog@nanog.org> >>> *Subject:* Stealthy Overlay Network Re: 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 >>> address block >>> >>> Caution: This is an external email and may be malicious. Please take >>> care when clicking links or opening attachments. >>> >>> Hi, Vasilenko: >>> >>> 1) ... These “multi-national conglo” has enough influence on the >>> IETF to not permit it.": >>> >>> As classified by Vint Cerf, 240/4 enabled EzIP is an overlay network >>> that may be deployed stealthily (just like the events reported by the >>> RIPE-LAB). So, EzIP deployment does not need permission from the IETF. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> Abe (2024-01-11 21:38 EST) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2024-01-11 01:17, Vasilenko Eduard wrote: >>> >>> > It has been known that multi-national conglomerates have been using >>> it without announcement. >>> >>> This is an assurance that 240/4 would never be permitted for Public >>> Internet. These “multi-national conglo” has enough influence on the >>> IETF to not permit it. >>> >>> Ed/ >>> >>> *From:* NANOG [ >>> mailto:nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei....@nanog.org >>> <nanog-bounces+vasilenko.eduard=huawei....@nanog.org>] *On Behalf Of >>> *Abraham >>> Y. Chen >>> *Sent:* Wednesday, January 10, 2024 3:35 PM >>> *To:* KARIM MEKKAOUI <amekka...@mektel.ca> <amekka...@mektel.ca> >>> *Cc:* nanog@nanog.org; Chen, Abraham Y. <ayc...@alum.mit.edu> >>> <ayc...@alum.mit.edu> >>> *Subject:* 202401100645.AYC Re: IPv4 address block >>> *Importance:* High >>> >>> >>> >>> Hi, Karim: >>> >>> >>> >>> 1) If you have control of your own equipment (I presume that your >>> business includes IAP - Internet Access Provider, since you are asking to >>> buy IPv4 blocks.), you can get a large block of reserved IPv4 address *for >>> free* by *disabling* the program codes in your current facility that >>> has been *disabling* the use of 240/4 netblock. Please have a look at >>> the below whitepaper. Utilized according to the outlined disciplines, this >>> is a practically unlimited resources. It has been known that multi-national >>> conglomerates have been using it without announcement. So, you can do so >>> stealthily according to the proposed mechanism which establishes uniform >>> practices, just as well. >>> >>> >>> >>> https://www.avinta.com/phoenix-1/home/RevampTheInternet.pdf >>> >>> >>> >>> 2) Being an unorthodox solution, if not controversial, please follow >>> up with me offline. Unless, other NANOGers express their interests. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Abe (2024-01-10 07:34 EST) >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 2024-01-07 22:46, KARIM MEKKAOUI wrote: >>> >>> Hi Nanog Community >>> >>> >>> >>> Any idea please on the best way to buy IPv4 blocs and what is the price? >>> >>> >>> >>> Thank you >>> >>> >>> >>> KARIM >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> >>> >>> Virus-free.www.avast.com >>> <https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=emailclient> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >
