Same issues in NYC. I'm in the bay area burbs and at least once a month get marketing from AT&T or Sonic about FTTH that stops 2 doors away. The bonded DSL alternative is... Functional but a couple times more expensive than my neighbors pay.
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2020/11/verizon-wiring-up-500k-homes-with-fios-to-settle-years-long-fight-with-nyc/ On Wed, Feb 16, 2022, 10:38 AM Mike Hammett <na...@ics-il.net> wrote: > *nods* > > If there's not a fiscal reason to not do it (which USF and other > give-aways solve), then there's a political reason. Gotta solve that one on > a case-by-case basis. > > > > ----- > Mike Hammett > Intelligent Computing Solutions > http://www.ics-il.com > > Midwest-IX > http://www.midwest-ix.com > > ------------------------------ > *From: *"Aaron Wendel" <aa...@wholesaleinternet.net> > *To: *nanog@nanog.org > *Sent: *Wednesday, February 16, 2022 12:13:52 PM > *Subject: *Re: New minimum speed for US broadband connections > > The reason government incentives exist is because, in a lot of rural > America, a business case can't be made to connect to Grandma's farm > that's 10 miles from the nearest splice box. If you believe that broad > band is a basic service now, like electricity, then getting Grandma her > porn is important enough to subsidize. > > If I want to run fiber to every home in the 11th larges city with a > population density of 5,642 people/sq mi, that's an easy case to make > from a financial perspective. The issues that come into play are local > red tape, fees, restrictions, etc. Compound that with large providers > agreeing not to overbuild each other and incentives given by said large > providers to developers and, sometimes, its just not worth it. > > Here's an example for you. North Kansas City, Missouri has FREE gigabit > fiber to every home in town. It also has Spectrum (Charter) and AT&T. > Recently there has been a boom of apartment complexes going up but they > don't get the free stuff. Why? Because Spectrum and Charter pay the > developers to keep the free stuff by assuming internal infrastructure > costs and/or paying the developments and complexes a kickback for every > subscriber. Now the FCC says you can't do that but they get around it by > altering the language in their agreements. > > Aaron > > > On 2/16/2022 11:52 AM, Owen DeLong via NANOG wrote: > > > > > >> On Feb 11, 2022, at 13:14 , Josh Luthman > >> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: > >> > >> Because literally every case I've seen along these lines is someone > >> complaining about the coax connection is "only 100 meg when I pay for > >> 200 meg". Comcast was the most hated company and yet they factually > >> had better speeds (possibly in part to their subjectively terrible > >> customer service) for years. > >> > >> >An apartment building could have cheap 1G fiber and the houses > >> across the street have no option but slow DSL. > >> > >> Where is this example? Or is this strictly hypothetical? > > > > There are literally dozens (if not thousands) of such examples in > > silicon valley alone. > > > >> I am not seeing any examples, anywhere, with accurate data, where > >> it's what most consider to be in town/urban and poor speeds. The > >> only one that was close was Jared and I'm pretty sure when I saw the > >> map I wouldn't consider that in town (could be wrong) but again, > >> there's gig fiber there now. I don't remember if he actually got his > >> CLEC, or why that matters, but there's fiber there now. > > > > Pretty sure you would have a hard time calling San Jose “not in town”. > > It’s literally #11 in the largest 200 cities in the US with a > > population of 1,003,120 (954,940 in the 2010 census) and a population > > density of 5,642 people/sq. mile (compare to #4 Houston, TX at > > 3,632/Sq. Mi.). > > > > Similar conditions exist in parts of Los Angeles, #2 on the same list > > at 3,985,516 (3,795,512 in 2010 census) and 8,499/Sq. Mi. > > > > I speak of California because it’s where I have the most information. > > I’m sure this situation exists in other states as well, but I don’t > > have actual data. > > > > The simple reality is that there are three sets of incentives that > > utilities tend to chase and neither of them provides for the > > mezzo-urban and sub-urban parts of America… > > 1.USF — Mostly supports rural deployments. > > 2.Extreme High Density — High-Rise apartments in dense arrays, Not > > areas of town houses, smaller apartment complexes, or single family > > dwellings. > > 3.Neighborhoods full of McMansions — Mostly built very recently and > > where the developers would literally pay the utilities to pre-deploy > > in order to boost sales prices. > > > > Outside of those incentives, there’s very little actual deployment of > > broadband improvements, leaving vast quantities of average Americans > > underserved. > > > > Owen > > > > > > > >> > >> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 4:05 PM Brandon Svec via NANOG > >> <nanog@nanog.org> wrote: > >> > >> What is the point of these anecdotes? Surely anyone on this list > >> with even a passing knowledge of the broadband landscape in the > >> United States knows how hit or miss it can be. An > >> apartment building could have cheap 1G fiber and the houses > >> across the street have no option but slow DSL. Houses could have > >> reliable high speed cable internet, but the office park across > >> the field has no such choice because the buildout cost is > >> prohibitively high to get fiber, etc. > >> > >> There are plenty of places with only one or two choices of > >> provider too. Of course, this is literally changing by the > >> minute as new services are continually being added and upgraded. > >> *Brandon Svec* > >> > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 12:36 PM Josh Luthman > >> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: > >> > >> OK the one example you provided has gigabit fiber though. > >> > >> On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 8:41 AM Tom Beecher > >> <beec...@beecher.cc> wrote: > >> > >> Can you provide examples? > >> > >> > >> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twe6uTwOyJo&ab_channel=NANOG > >> < > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Twe6uTwOyJo&ab_channel=NANOG> > >> > >> Our good friend Jared could only get 1.5M DSL living just > >> outside Ann Arbor, MI, so he had to start his own CLEC. > >> > >> I have friends in significantly more rural areas than he > >> lives in ( Niagara and Orleans county NYS , between > >> Niagara Falls and Rochester ) who have the same 400Mb > >> package from Spectrum that I do, living in the City of > >> Niagara Falls. > >> > >> This is not to say that rural America is a mecca of > >> connectivity; there is a long way to go all the way > >> around regardless. But it is a direct example as you > >> asked for. > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 3:57 PM Josh Luthman > >> <j...@imaginenetworksllc.com> wrote: > >> > >> >There are plenty of urban and suburban areas in > >> America that are far worse off from a broadband > >> perspective than “rural America”. > >> > >> Can you provide examples? > >> > >> On Thu, Feb 10, 2022 at 3:51 PM Owen DeLong via NANOG > >> <nanog@nanog.org> wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >> > On Jun 2, 2021, at 02:10 , Mark Tinka > >> <mark@tinka.africa> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > On 6/2/21 11:04, Owen DeLong wrote: > >> > > >> >> I disagree… If it could be forced into a > >> standardized format using a standardized approach > >> to data acquisition and reliable comparable > >> results across providers, it could be a very > >> useful adjunct to real competition. > >> > > >> > If we can't even agree on what "minimum speed > >> for U.S. broadband connections" actually means, > >> fat chance having a "nutritional facts" at the > >> back of the "Internet in a tea cup" dropped off > >> at your door step. > >> > > >> > I'm not saying it's not useful, I'm just saying > >> that easily goes down the "what color should we > >> use for the bike shed" territory, while people in > >> rural America still have no or poor Internet access. > >> > > >> > Mark. > >> > >> ROFLMAO… > >> > >> People in Rural America seem to be doing just > >> fine. Most of the ones I know at least have GPON > >> or better. > >> > >> Meanwhile, here in San Jose, a city that bills > >> itself as “The Capital of Silicon Valley”, the > >> best I can get is Comcast (which does finally > >> purport to be Gig down), but rarely delivers that. > >> > >> Yes, anything involving the federal government > >> will get the full bike shed treatment no matter > >> what we do. > >> > >> There are plenty of urban and suburban areas in > >> America that are far worse off from a broadband > >> perspective than “rural America”. > >> > >> Owen > >> > > > > -- > ================================================================ > Aaron Wendel > Chief Technical Officer > Wholesale Internet, Inc. (AS 32097) > (816)550-9030 > http://www.wholesaleinternet.com > ================================================================ > > >
